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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
 I agree that for the blizz build, improving your DPS with a 2hander (not even including the stat losses like vit which is hard to quantify), is difficult at best. If you don't have much cash though, the biggest thing is simply what you can get a good deal on. | ||
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daredpanda
United States60 Posts
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King.Crimson
Romania478 Posts
Can anyone help me decide what are the main attributes i should look for? +crit chance, crit damage, intelligence, all res? Also i wanna play arcane orb build, blizz hydra too damn boring, what stats should my main hand and offhand have? Thanks, cheers. | ||
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Phael
United States281 Posts
Data - normal Azmodan with 5% crit, 50% crit damage with a 100 dps 0.9 mace: average of 11.4 second kill time using venom hydra alone. normal Azmodan with 5% crit, 50% crit damage with a 100 dps 1.5 dagger: average of 18.9 second kill time using venom hydra alone. On June 21 2012 21:26 Curu wrote: I would never a 2H because a Source gives you way more stats and the all importance crit chance %. A Source can have 8.5% crit chance which is ~10k increase in DPS if you have good crit damage. A 1H just flat out does more DPS than a 2H because of the additional crit chance on the Source (not to mention any additional int, vit, etc). This is true when you get a 1H weapon with lots of crit damage. Without that 2H may be comparable since it's mostly the crit % on Sources that flat out push them above 2H weapons and if you're not making use of that then it's probably not worth the extra cost. Also Phael you're going a bit overboard. You're showing this guy who says he has ~$10 that you're critting for 500k when you know he can't afford even close to that gear for that much money lol. You're the one spreading misinformation to try to prove your point. The most important stat for a wizard is weapon damage; the most important factor in weapon damage is the swing speed of the weapon. Does it matter how high your crit is, if your normal attacks are half the damage of a 2hander? I'm showing this guy what a 2hander can do end-game with my screenshots. I've stated a few times that I have decently good(expensive) gear. I challenge anyone with a onehander to show comparable amounts of damage using arcane orb, or just dps overall. So far, I'm apparently the only one who is even attempting to back up his claims. Why? DPS is similar, 1hand has more stats. DPS is irrelevant, weapon damage is what matters. A faster attack with the same dps equals lower weapon damage, simple as that. Ye I dont agree with that statement at all either. We also havent talked about overkill yet. A problem you even have with a 1 hander with the new focus on crit and critdamage. With a slower weapon this should be even worse. Mob hp distribution tends to have a fairly linear curve. Meaning, there isn't a specific mob hp that occurs significantly more often than other hps so you build to oneshot them. With that in mind, until you start to one-shot the lowest hp mobs with a non-crit 1h, overkill is equal for both more or less. Who cares about weapon dps ? Its all about overall dps of course. It's all about weapon damage. The only spells that you should even take into account weapon speed are signatures. You forget that Sources give damage too. Best ones add 250 damage, multiply that by either 1.2 or 1.4 based on 1H weapon speed (more if it has IAS on weap) and suddenly you see that you are completely wrong in every way. Why am I bothering to calculate out dps? Because it looks pretty on my character screen? This is sounding like a broken record right now, but ... all spell damage is based off of one stat and only one stat - weapon damage. Attack speed gets that damage out faster, but in all cases except signature spells (and archon), you're limited by either resource or time. Same price. I was only making the point that 1hander+source is better for signature builds, not bringing the economics into it. It is indeed more expensive - no surprises there, 2 good items is harder to get than 1. It's certainly not the 2b club level though as someone said. Beating that 2h (@60m) surely wouldn't require more than 120m. I can't be bothered to search for a good source to confirm tho. You have to bring economics into everything as gear is generally money limited, not power-limited - except for the very few with billions to spend. For a given quantity of money, you can do better with a 2hander than a 1hander, unless that quantity is in the billions. Sure, with the best 1h available + source, I can probably outdamage a 2hander that costs 1mil (probably, it really is that close), but ... that's sort of unfair, no? You did some math for the most expensive 1h & 2h, and while that is commendable, again, dps means diddly squat in terms of damage output. Hydra, blizzard, orb, etc. - all abilities that are limited by resource (orb), or time (hydra, blizz - casting more of them doesn't increase your damage) scale directly off of weapon damage and in all but the most extreme cases, are unaffected by weapon speed. Weapon speed lets you fire off more signature spells in a given time frame, and makes kiting more comfortable, that's about all. Well most of us cannot afford the 50+ mil to get the top of the line gear. So let's bring some economics into it. I spent 1 million to get my 1 hander 960 dps 596-887 ish 1.3 AS another 1 million to get my offhand 60-220 dps 112 vit and 115 int + socket with 42 int gem + 2% knockback chance. I check auction house on occasion to see if the switch may be worth it and while I can get a 1200ish - 1300 dps 2 hander for 2 million and not "lose dps," I'd still lose the stats from the offhand dropping my HP by over 3500 and my int by 157. Furthmore I use signature spell + venom + blizzard and arcane dynamo passive. I'd have to switch to AO + venom + slow passive, which would actually lower my dps due to losing the 75% bonus damage i'd get every time i use blizzard to initiate. So your weapon damage is 881.5, with an additional 157 int and 112 vit. Quick search on the AH with a 2mil buyout limit gives me a weapon with 1120 dps (0.9 speed) with 180 int and 127 vit (for 1.7 mil) Weapon damage of this mace: 1244.5 So with this weapon, you would do about 40% more damage with blizzard and hydra, and lose 2% damage on magic missile spam. In any normal mm/blizzard/hydra config, I'd estimate 10-25% of your damage, going up to 50% on single target, comes from magic missile, but lets be generous and say you do over 50% of your damage with MM on everything. Old 1h + oh: MM damage (881.5*1.3) & hydra/blizzard damage (881.5). Average expected dps: 1013.7 New 2h: MM damage (1244.5*0.9) & hydra/blizzard damage (1244.5). Average expected dps: 1182.3 So as you can see, you will do about 17% (absolute minimum) more damage with a cheaper 2h that gives you higher stats. How are you guys getting over 75k dps? And where is all this money coming from??? 0_o Decently high base damage (my weapon only has 1250 dps, so no need to go overboard), high amounts of crit (I'm running nearly 50% with a 2h), and a crapload of crit damage (I've over 300%). Half my shots crit for quadruple damage, that'll up your dps number pretty damn fast. The money comes from the stuff I kill mostly, I flipped a few things on the AH that were absolute steals but I don't make a habit of it. +crit chance, crit damage, intelligence, all res? Also i wanna play arcane orb build, blizz hydra too damn boring, what stats should my main hand and offhand have? You have no dps stats available (outside of specific legendaries that aren't very good, or very expensive) in your chest, belt, pants, shoulders, and boots slots. Get max survivability in those slots - generally a very undervalued stat is armor for wizards. With force armor still a staple, gear with +armor that gives the same mitigation as +all res generally goes for 20-30% of the all res item's value. For gloves, rings, amulet ... those are your dps stat slots. Focus on int, crit damage, and crit on those slots, in order of price. Helm and bracers are sort of mixed. If you can find a cheap one with decent stats and crit, go for it, but normally just look for main stats and a socket in the helm. You should only be using a 2hander, no mainhand/offhand silliness. Socket, crit damage, and intelligence are the most important stats in descending importance. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On June 22 2012 00:10 Yaotzin wrote: Best stuff on EU AH: 2hander: 1511DPS (1186-1538 damage, 1.11 aps) 1hander: 1184DPS (585-1107, 1.4 aps) With a 80-370 source (good but certainly not perfect) that becomes: 1499 DPS (665-1477 damage, 1.4 aps) So yeah, pretty similar. And that 1hander is some blue wand, could easily be better. Then of course, add in 8% crit and various other stats, and in fact the 1hander option has comfortably superior DPS. Now, things change for AO and other AP limited builds. But for signature based builds? Better DPS, better control due to speed, and more stats. Comfortably the better option. Yes signature spells gain the most from faster attack speed, but the majority of the builds that use a signature spell are blizzard builds, and blizzard hits harder with a 2h'er, so it's a trade-off in that sense. Also once you get to really high end gear level I think even blizzard builds swap out their signature spell for RoF. At the end of the day though it really depends on your build. Of course there are scenarios where a 1h'er is better. But I do agree with others saying that 2h'ers are cheaper for similar overall DPS. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On June 22 2012 01:55 Phael wrote: So I did some testing on venom hydra and weapon speed. Turns out that hydras ignore attack speed and look solely at your weapon damage, consistent with every other wizard spell (every ability in the game?). Data - normal Azmodan with 5% crit, 50% crit damage with a 100 dps 0.9 mace: average of 11.4 second kill time using venom hydra alone. normal Azmodan with 5% crit, 50% crit damage with a 100 dps 1.5 dagger: average of 18.9 second kill time using venom hydra alone. Not quite. See this guide for how damage is calculated (http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5594209994?page=1). Hydra is actually a unique case as far as wizard spells go as its damage is directly affected by attack speed (e.g. each attack itself does more damage), rather than most spells where their damage is indirectly affected (e.g. by casting it more often). Hydra is somewhat like a signature in the sense that you can use your character screen's DPS as a good indicator of how gear affects its damage. | ||
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Depetrify
978 Posts
1h or 2h? lol.... So basically on the rest of my armor I just stack crit damage,chance, and int/vit? Maybe some attack speed if crit isnt available? | ||
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Phael
United States281 Posts
On June 22 2012 02:06 Skyro wrote: Not quite. See this guide for how damage is calculated (http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5594209994?page=1). Hydra is actually a unique case as far as wizard spells go as its damage is directly affected by attack speed (e.g. each attack itself does more damage), rather than most spells where their damage is indirectly affected (e.g. by casting it more often). Hydra is somewhat like a signature in the sense that you can use your character screen's DPS as a good indicator of how gear affects its damage. He has no hard data, I have results. With the scientific method, it's important to have repeatable tests with peer review - where is his? Again, I'm not aware of any (damage) spell in the game that is not directly based off of weapon damage, it would be very, very unique for hydra to be the only one to do so. Other pets (hydra is more or less an invulnerable pet) are all based off of straight weapon damage, why the change for hydra? I would believe it if he had source(s) or data, but many other official looking guides have been posted that have been completely inaccurate towards one mechanic or another. | ||
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CorsairHero
Canada9491 Posts
Also for int/vit Lacuni's vs bracers with all res/int/vit/crit? I dont have any numbers for these items, just wanted an overall opinion +taking into consideration that the wizard has a 2 hander | ||
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Phael
United States281 Posts
On June 22 2012 02:13 CorsairHero wrote: What are you guys thought on a helm like Andariels Visage with int/socket/crit chance and just helm with all res/vit/int/socket? Also for int/vit Lacuni's vs bracers with all res/int/vit/crit? I dont have any numbers for these items, just wanted an overall opinion Both legendaries are currently inferior to rares both on the character damage screen and off. You only need a modest 180 or so intellect/3% crit to outdamage andy's, and you can probably purchase a higher damage (vs lacuni) bracer for under 100k. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On June 22 2012 02:11 Phael wrote: He has no hard data, I have results. With the scientific method, it's important to have repeatable tests with peer review - where is his? Again, I'm not aware of any (damage) spell in the game that is not directly based off of weapon damage, it would be very, very unique for hydra to be the only one to do so. Other pets (hydra is more or less an invulnerable pet) are all based off of straight weapon damage, why the change for hydra? I would believe it if he had source(s) or data, but many other official looking guides have been posted that have been completely inaccurate towards one mechanic or another. Well I can vouch for the credibility of that guide. I have tested numerous things and all of them jive with what is stated in that guide. It's also hard to peer review your test because you don't give enough context. You want to control for as many variables as possible. For example most tests are done in A1 vs zombies (slow moving mob that won't move out of acid pools). Most tests are done with as naked a character as possible. I've tested Hydra in this way and it conflicts with your tests. But one easy way to see attack speed affecting hydra damage is with a frenzy shrine, which significantly increases hydra damage. Also FYI there are other skills in the game not affected strictly by base weapon damage, such as the barbarian's earthquake. This is done since earthquake has a cooldown so basing damage only off base weapon damage would make it detrimental to use with a faster weapon with lower base damage. Hydra, if I remember correctly, is the only wizard skill that behaves this way I believe. Or at least the only commonly used wizard skill that behaves this way. | ||
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Phael
United States281 Posts
I cannot vouch for how frenzy shrine affects hydra damage, my crit rate is high enough that my hydra damage is all over the place so I generally don't pay attention to it, but I have never seen ticks higher than in the 60s, and I've definitely seen that without a frenzy shrine. | ||
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iLLusive
United States274 Posts
If my whole D3 experience is using AO/MM/Bliz do you have a good build suggestion? | ||
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Phael
United States281 Posts
If you do need survival, then sure, replace with teleport/mirror image and you have your basic orb/hydra build. That utility slot is pretty much your choice. I'd suggest the cookie cutter build: AO - tap the source Hydra - venom Energy armor - force armor Magic weapon - force weapon Diamond skin - crystal shell [insert choice here, familiar-sparkflint, teleport-fracture/wormhole, mirror image-duplicate] Passives - Glass cannon Temporal flux Astral presence | ||
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iLLusive
United States274 Posts
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iLLusive
United States274 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/eSpF0.jpg) | ||
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Phael
United States281 Posts
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iLLusive
United States274 Posts
 (like a $10 neck should get you 100 int, 4% crit, 30% crit damage, and the same $10 ring should give you about half of those numbers.) Lastly maybe I am searching wrong but with settings for 60 - Rare Amulet with crit hit / crit dmg / 100 int I get only 90$ + choices with 3 pages | ||
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ximae
181 Posts
On June 22 2012 01:55 Phael wrote: So your weapon damage is 881.5, with an additional 157 int and 112 vit. Quick search on the AH with a 2mil buyout limit gives me a weapon with 1120 dps (0.9 speed) with 180 int and 127 vit (for 1.7 mil) Weapon damage of this mace: 1244.5 So with this weapon, you would do about 50% more damage with blizzard and hydra, and lose 30% damage on magic missile spam. In any normal mm/blizzard/hydra config, I'd estimate 10-25% of your damage, going up to 50% on single target, comes from magic missile, but lets be generous and say you do 50% of your damage with MM on everything. Old 1h + oh: MM damage (881.5*1.3) & hydra/blizzard damage (881.5). Average expected dps: 1013.7 New 2h: MM damage (1244.5*0.9) & hydra/blizzard damage (1244.5). Average expected dps: 1182.3 So as you can see, you will do about 17% (absolute minimum) more damage with a cheaper 2h that gives you higher stats. Decently high base damage (my weapon only has 1250 dps, so no need to go overboard), high amounts of crit (I'm running nearly 50% with a 2h), and a crapload of crit damage (I've over 300%). Half my shots crit for quadruple damage, that'll up your dps number pretty damn fast. . I agree with u on the weapon speed thing vs base damage, thats why i only look for the highest weapon damage 1,2 speed one handers, so i can hit the hardest having the most affixes possible. The thing in ur comparison is that u didnt account for his weapons + int (if it had any) + offhand +int which should be easily 100+ than just a 2 handers int. remember that to calculate the damage done Int also plays an important role. plus the most important affix that off hands provide , a high crit chance. and that alone buffs ur damage more than 200 base damage. But what really astonishes me is that u have gone up to 50% crit chance without even using an offhand! how the hell did u do that? 10% gloves + 10% amu + 20% on bracers, helm and rings and the free 5% is just 45%. coz i thought u would need the extra 8% on the off hand to reach 50%. man sick crit gear, coz im struggling to get it up past 30% and i need the offhand for that, thats my main point with the offhand really, getting more int and crit chance with it. + whatever affixes, but thats just bonus. | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
On June 21 2012 17:11 FallDownMarigold wrote: Is this lazy NB guy (jokes, no offense) ever going to update the actual OP with a decent layout of builds and info for noobs and such? I mean cmon guy, it's at 141 pages now and counting. Get on it im guessing never. at least not for the next couple days since he was just banned. | ||
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