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On June 21 2012 12:48 Phael wrote:
Why on earth do people think signature spells are better with attack speed?
Because the usual issue with attack speed is that burning your AP faster doesn't let you deal more damage since AP is the limiter. Obviously, with signature spells this isn't the case, meaning a shorter attack cooldown actually has an impact on your damage.
Stimpack doesn't increase marine damage per hit in SC2 either, but it sure as hell increases their dps even when kiting.
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On June 21 2012 12:55 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 12:48 Phael wrote:
Why on earth do people think signature spells are better with attack speed? Because the usual issue with attack speed is that burning your AP faster doesn't let you deal more damage since AP is the limiter. Obviously, with signature spells this isn't the case, meaning a shorter attack cooldown actually has an impact on your damage. Stimpack doesn't increase marine damage per hit in SC2 either, but it sure as hell increases their dps even when kiting.
What you're talking about is a dps increase in a vacuum then. Yes, with 20% more attack speed, I do 20% more damage. Stimpack added 50% attack speed without reducing damage by 33%, so yeah of course it makes marines do more damage.
But when you're saying, my signature spell with a 1.4 1000 dps wand does more damage than with my 1400 dps 1.0 speed axe, it makes no sense. The wand spell hits for 10k damage, the axe spell hits for 14k. You're not doing the same damage faster, you're doing lower damage faster which multiplies out to be the same damage.
You need enough speed to successfully kite stuff without dying. More is generally* bad.
*If your only abilities are signature spells and venom hydra (possibly - my personal, informal, testing tells me venom hydra damage is only dependent upon weapon damage and not speed, whereas others say it takes speed into consideration - if it does, it's the only wizard spell to do so), then ok, speed is neutral. In all other scenarios, speed beyond that necessary to survive is bad.
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Having a lot of trouble with Cydaea post-patch. I did my normal run, killed 6-7 elite packs no problem, then went down to her.... bleh. Died about 10 times then gave up and went to bed. It seems I can't kill the spiders quickly enough, so they flood the room and I can't even deal damage to Cydaea, I have to concentrate 100% on them, but they eventually overwhelm me. Hmmm... might have to add a signature spell to my orb build, maybe shock pulse or electrocute would do the trick. Anyone have any suggestions?
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I cant understand how you cant see that signature spells are obv way better with more attack speed. Basicly there is no reason to cast a signature spell when you have enough arcane power to cast a non signature spell. Because even against single target orb for example does more damage than any signature spell.
And with faster attack speed you run out of arcane power faster. So people implemented mm to do some damage while arcane power starved. With the IAS nerf I dont think thats viable anymore.
To me it seems you never played with higher IAS.
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I have 100k dps. I do 1 attack per second. My average weapon swing is therefor 100k.
You have 100k dps. You do 2 attacks per second. Your average weapon swing is therefor 50k.
In a 10 second window, I cast 10 charged blasts for 143k each totaling 1430k damage.
In a 10 second window, you cast 20 charged blasts for 71.5k each totaling 1430k damage.
What's the deal?
Yes, if we have the SAME weapon damage, and then I get more speed, my signature spells will do more dps. No shit. If I had more crit, crit damage, +elite damage, or int, I'd also do more dps. You're basically saying attack speed increases your dps - which quite obviously, it does.
But at the cost of other stats. If you're using a 1hander vs a 2hander, then your weapon damage is way down. Just compare the damage range on a wand vs that of a mace, it's not even close. If you're stacking attack speed on items, it comes at a cost (either gold, $$$, or other stats).
Every single wizard spell (with the possibility of hydra) is calculated based on weapon damage.
Weapon damage can be defined as: (the minimum damage on your weapon + maximum damage on your weapon)* int bonus/2.
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On June 21 2012 13:15 Phael wrote:
I have 100k dps. I do 1 attack per second. My average weapon swing is therefor 100k.
You have 100k dps. You do 2 attacks per second. Your average weapon swing is therefor 50k.
In a 10 second window, I cast 10 charged blasts for 143k each totaling 1430k damage.
In a 10 second window, you cast 20 charged blasts for 71.5k each totaling 1430k damage.
if we have the same dps obviously our damage output is going to be same given the same time period....
the difference is whether you will run out of AP during that 10 seconds and if you do you wan tto maximise your crit % and damage...
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On June 21 2012 13:15 Phael wrote:
I have 100k dps. I do 1 attack per second. My average weapon swing is therefor 100k.
You have 100k dps. You do 2 attacks per second. Your average weapon swing is therefor 50k.
In a 10 second window, I cast 10 charged blasts for 143k each totaling 1430k damage.
In a 10 second window, you cast 20 charged blasts for 71.5k each totaling 1430k damage.
What's the deal?
Yes, if we have the SAME weapon damage, and then I get more speed, my signature spells will do more dps. No shit. If I had more crit, crit damage, +elite damage, or int, I'd also do more dps. You're basically saying attack speed increases your dps - which quite obviously, it does.
But at the cost of other stats. If you're using a 1hander vs a 2hander, then your weapon damage is way down. Just compare the damage range on a wand vs that of a mace, it's not even close. If you're stacking attack speed on items, it comes at a cost (either gold, $$$, or other stats).
Every single wizard spell (with the possibility of hydra) is calculated based on weapon damage.
Weapon damage can be defined as: (the minimum damage on your weapon + maximum damage on your weapon)* int bonus/2.
I understand your logic, as I used 2 handers for quite some time before this patch, but let me give you an example in the extreme here. Obviously I consider attack speed a luxury for kiting, something not so much for damage but for utility and letting you escape easier.
Imagine if you had a .5 weapon speed that did 300k on hit to a 1.5 weapon speed that did 100k. Sure, you hit for less, but .5 attacks per second is way too slow. It's hard to get that off while kiting so you need the weapon speed to ensure that you get casts off. Really, it all comes down to what you're comfortable with, but I'm really comfortable around 1.4. Any more and I feel I'm wasting my time. I may try a signature spell over venom hydra because I have 1.5 right now as well as 18 arcane per crit with 45% crit chance thanks to my offhand/helm. It's still pretty difficult to judge which one would be better though.
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Yes, I kinda agree, .5 speed is way too slow, but for some specs I think I might be able to make it work. Especially as you generally get 2-3 free casts off at the start of a fight before you engage the enemy ... but as I said around 10 posts ago: get the slowest speed that allows you to survive while kiting, then stop there. Anything more hurts your performance. For the vast majority of the player base, a 2hander fits that criteria. If you need more than a 1.2ish attack speed to kite properly, something's wrong.
As for the venom hydra thing - I'm only putting it there because people have flamed me in the past and said that attack speed does increase its damage. If so, it's the only wizard spell to scale with attack speed, which to me would be extremely weird. My own testing confirms that it only scales with weapon damage. However, to avoid being flamed again, I have put it there.
@Doraemon - yes, I understand how dps works. My pure frustration at this topic is due to various posts I find in this thread and others - 3 seconds of search turned up the following baseless drivel, and the theme of those posts are that signature spells are better with speed. WTF.
i really dont think wizards should be using 2 handers... like not at all. the bonuses u get from a good off hand are far too great.
Yeah I would never use a 2H.
I agree with what people are saying here about dmg vs money, but IMO 1h+source is the way to go especially if you just started farming act3. The attack speed plays a vital role for kiting and doing damage
I would also dump mm. With a lot of IAS it was nice to have
First of all 1h + oh is superior overall, however its also more expensive
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I switched to 1 hander because as we both agreed, getting attack speed now on items is just dumb. I'd have to sacrifice far too much to get to 1.3-1.4 using a 2 hander.
Also, using 2x AP on crit items is very interesting with familiar + sparkflint. Sparkflint gives me 2k less DPS, but does dmg and procs arcane power on crit as well. Using a fast 1 hander I can get off a lot more casts.
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Yes - you have a good reason. With enough AP on crit, a 1hander mimics the AP usage of a 2hander and while it does roughly the same dps (in other words, less damage per cast but more casts), your cast animation is quicker and gives you more survivability.
95% of the rest who are using 1handers because they think attack speed makes signature spells better are utterly wrong.
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Tried piercing orb over venom hydra, didn't like it. The idea of going to a signature spell feels somewhat backwards to me. The whole point of arcane on crit is so you have more arcane pool on crits from your arcane orb, not from signature spells. I'm not exactly that desperate for it when I'm using familiar. Like yeah, cool, I get to use it twice and then I go back to spamming arcane orb for like the other 75% of the fight. Maybe I'll try with seeker missile if I'm more interested.
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On June 21 2012 13:15 Phael wrote:
I have 100k dps. I do 1 attack per second. My average weapon swing is therefor 100k.
You have 100k dps. You do 2 attacks per second. Your average weapon swing is therefor 50k.
In a 10 second window, I cast 10 charged blasts for 143k each totaling 1430k damage.
In a 10 second window, you cast 20 charged blasts for 71.5k each totaling 1430k damage.
What's the deal?
The whole reason ias was reduced is because you could get your dps higher than anything else by speccing into it, so nobody did anything else for the most part.
Obviously if you ignore that fact and take equal dps numbers, then the dps is the same.
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On June 21 2012 10:58 iLLusive wrote:Ok seeking some honest advice and I know I will get the "don't spend money just farm it answers from some" So I LOVE the game and I have limited time to play around 2 jobs / full time school. SO I tore normal/NM/Hell out of the wall and destroyed them. Last 2 weeks been working on kiting, gear, farming and being able to conquer more of act one then just Ghom. Still not very successful and last patch hurt me more than helped. SO what would be a good investment to purchase for items on RMAH if I am looking to spend 50-100$ with these current stats in the attached photos. Thanks for the suggestions I just want to be able to solo more of the game when I get home from work and stop hitting my head on the wall failing. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/iFdtJ.jpg)
Thank you all for the feedback and I just want to make sure I am taking it all in correctly.
1. Get more crit damage to take advantage of my 23ish perc crit rate?
2. I should stop using MM and pick a new spell?
3. Get a 1hander with at least a socket and hopefully + crit damage
4. What should I be seeking in amulet / ring / sources? Right now I was trying to find the best item on my budget so I searched decent amount of +int / vit / crit and hoped for all resist. Should I be more worried about int and less worried about having 5/6 stats on the item?
What is a good stat list I should seek on a 1 hander / source for something on a budget then? I never knew that from stats an source I could pretty much outweigh almost 200-300 pure weapon DPS. Everytime I look for gear I search by DPS with int / socket on 1 hander and everything over 800 DPS seems like 50+ $
I'm on a budget and in game I am nearly broke. So I need to make the BEST choices per slot to gain the most DPS across the board. Hope that makes sense..so if I can spend 10$ and get a amulet that is better gain then spending 25$ on a weapon I want the affordable slot choices. Obviously I know good deals void the general pricing of items but I am just saying based on current rates for items with stats I really need to focus on IE: Int / Crit / Crit dmg / All resist ect ect you get it.
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On June 21 2012 15:17 iLLusive wrote:
Thank you all for the feedback and I just want to make sure I am taking it all in correctly.
1. Get more crit damage to take advantage of my 23ish perc crit rate?
2. I should stop using MM and pick a new spell?
3. Get a 1hander with at least a socket and hopefully + crit damage
4. What should I be seeking in amulet / ring / sources? Right now I was trying to find the best item on my budget so I searched decent amount of +int / vit / crit and hoped for all resist. Should I be more worried about int and less worried about having 5/6 stats on the item?
What is a good stat list I should seek on a 1 hander / source for something on a budget then? I never knew that from stats an source I could pretty much outweigh almost 200-300 pure weapon DPS. Everytime I look for gear I search by DPS with int / socket on 1 hander and everything over 800 DPS seems like 50+ $
I'm on a budget and in game I am nearly broke. So I need to make the BEST choices per slot to gain the most DPS across the board. Hope that makes sense..so if I can spend 10$ and get a amulet that is better gain then spending 25$ on a weapon I want the affordable slot choices. Obviously I know good deals void the general pricing of items but I am just saying based on current rates for items with stats I really need to focus on IE: Int / Crit / Crit dmg / All resist ect ect you get it.
Ok, because I hate misinformation, here's my input.
1.) Crit damage is awesome once you have enough crit. 23% is medium, you can definitely go higher, but that is enough to put crit damage as your highest favorable stat. Especially since you are starting at 50%, the first 150% crit damage is huge, absolutely monumental.
2.) MM is not a good spell for you right now. Replace with teleport or if you are fine with survival, familiar-sparkflint.
3.) No. No. NO. Onehanders are really, really bad for all but the most epically end-game geared wizard (I'm talking all items added together >= 2 billion gold's worth). Here's an explanation:
![[image loading]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v412/kaiadam/weapons.png)
The above is taken from the US server. I just checked the AH and those were the best dps items you could get for 1 mil gold. Lets assume you have a free 100-300 damage offhand lying around somewhere (a basic half mil offhand, but lets be generous and say you have one already).
You notice in all your spells, the damage description is weapon damage. What exactly is weapon damage? quite simply, just average the damage range on your weapons. For the above example,
2hander: (1276 + 1645) / 2 = 1460.5 damage
1hander: (425+100 + 908+300) /2 = 866.5 damage
The mace will do almost DOUBLE the damage of the sword per spell you cast. Yes, it's a bit slower, but looking from your swing speed already, you are used to slower weapons. If you want to add in attack speed for signature spells, then the 2hander will deal: 1460.5*0.9 = 1314.45 dps (without int bonus) while the sword + orb will deal: 866.5*1.4 = 1213.1 dps. Way less damage per hit, and less dps overall. Do NOT go with a 1hander, the 2hander is the better choice for 99.9999% of wizards out there, no exaggeration in the least. (yes, I think there are fewer than 5 people in the world with the money/gear to go 1h/oh and come out on top).
4.) Crit damage is your highest stat right now, get lots and lots of it asap. I'd advise you to spend what money you have in-game to get yourself the highest emerald you can afford to make/buy, then use the RMAH to get a 2hander with a socket. You will get an enormous boost from that alone. Spend maybe $10-20 on that weapon, it doesn't have to be topend, but with $20 you should be able to buy something that has 1200 dps, int, and a socket, or 1300 dps and a socket. Or even better, 1200 dps, crit damage, and a socket on top. If you find a weapon that has all 3 and decent dps, buy it ASAP, you should splurge on it. Rings, amulets ... same deal. Crit damage is king for you right now, then int, then crit. If something has attack speed ... take it if it doesn't cost you anything. $5-10 should net you lowbie stats on those items (like a $10 neck should get you 100 int, 4% crit, 30% crit damage, and the same $10 ring should give you about half of those numbers.)
Do NOT trust the people who are telling you to go 1hander + source. None of them can even come close to the numbers that you can put out with a 2hander, see below: (yes, those are over half mil crits. Hard to kite and screenshot at the same time, but all in the same fight - tap the source rune. I'd top out around 700k if I runed obliterate instead.)
![[image loading]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v412/kaiadam/damage.png)
Edit: Here's an obliterated orb. With the Enchantress debuff, I could probably do 800k but I'm too lazy to set that up.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/S3iVi.png)
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Is this lazy NB guy (jokes, no offense) ever going to update the actual OP with a decent layout of builds and info for noobs and such? I mean cmon guy, it's at 141 pages now and counting. Get on it
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would be great if u could post ur gear phael, maybe tell us about each peice and what u value most when buying the item. going to try switching to a 2hander, they definetly are cheaper.
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It's a lot cheaper but I feel like your going a little over the top with your estimation... 2 billion? you can get a lot of great stats from a source, tons of crit chance, int etc.. I don't see how the turning point is 2 billion.
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My gear isn't going to be of any use to you ... other than "oooh, shiny." :s
Here's where you should be going to when looking for upgrades:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0AuCuIwwOof50dGpVRXhOYTZHNUJ3R1dWTmdNdS1TeWc&toomany=true#gid=1
(Or something similar)
The values I assign to gear shifts as I get each new piece of upgrade. With the AS nerf, I've totally gotten rid of all haste items (except for Natalya's mark, which is required for a 7% 2-piece bonus with boots). After that, it's just looking for high rolls of Int, Crit damage, and Crit%. I put prices and gear numbers into the spreadsheet and buy the highest dps upgrade that I can afford.
It's a lot cheaper but I feel like your going a little over the top with your estimation... 2 billion? you can get a lot of great stats from a source, tons of crit chance, int etc.. I don't see how the turning point is 2 billion.
My turning point is that high because, in my estimate, 2 billion is roughly the price of gear at which you are able to 1-shot the weaker white mobs with a 1hander non-crit while maintaining 60% crit rate, 400% crit damage, and 20 ap on crit. If it takes you 2 shots to kill a white mob, what's the point of using a 1hander when you can 1-shot with a 2hander? You certainly don't attack twice as fast, and even with my gear (which, albeit good, is only in the dozens of million range), I can 1-shot pretty much all weaker mobs (archers, fallen, ghouls, etc.)
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anything with int crit chance and crit damage is insanely expensive. dozens of millions? bs. i have 30m and i can hardly find any good crit pieces.
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i'd like to see your gear. i think 1hander source is totally viable if you get a decent onehand with >90% crit and socket (+int). the offhand gives you additional int and >8% crit chance.
for farming you have the choice between MM/Archon or AO/Archon and in my opinion the first one is better because you can have two passives like Critical Mass and Evocation where as an AO build requires you to go for Astral Presence.
also kiting works way better with MM(Seeker) than with AO.
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EPT
