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On June 21 2012 17:58 Nizaris wrote:
anything with int crit chance and crit damage is insanely expensive. dozens of millions? bs. i have 30m and i can hardly find any good crit pieces.
/shrug, believe me, or not. That's how much I paid for my gear, what reason do I have to lie?
Archon is really bad at farming. 1.) it gets you killed way too much. 2.) you kill stuff too fast to swap in mf gear, or your timer runs out if you do. 3.) you have to make two trips through an area - one to kill, one to loot. 4.) if archon is on cd, you're at one third power.
I tried it. Stuff dies ridiculously fast, but I'd rather go through the area taking 25% longer with a ton more survivability and mf.
If you want to stick with one hand, be my guest. Less demand on 2h means I get my gear cheaper. As a hardcore theorycrafter though, it is my opinion that one handers are utter shit. My credentials and results are in the screenshots above, feel free to rebute.
Oh, I also wouldnt run with seeker. It's bugged for larger mobs like diablo and azmodan, passes straight through them 75% of the time and doesn't hit anything. I was sad the day I discovered this  so much more effort to aim charged blast.)
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On June 21 2012 17:23 Phael wrote:My gear isn't going to be of any use to you ... other than "oooh, shiny." :s Here's where you should be going to when looking for upgrades: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0AuCuIwwOof50dGpVRXhOYTZHNUJ3R1dWTmdNdS1TeWc&toomany=true#gid=1(Or something similar) The values I assign to gear shifts as I get each new piece of upgrade. With the AS nerf, I've totally gotten rid of all haste items (except for Natalya's mark, which is required for a 7% 2-piece bonus with boots). After that, it's just looking for high rolls of Int, Crit damage, and Crit%. I put prices and gear numbers into the spreadsheet and buy the highest dps upgrade that I can afford. Show nested quote +It's a lot cheaper but I feel like your going a little over the top with your estimation... 2 billion? you can get a lot of great stats from a source, tons of crit chance, int etc.. I don't see how the turning point is 2 billion. My turning point is that high because, in my estimate, 2 billion is roughly the price of gear at which you are able to 1-shot the weaker white mobs with a 1hander non-crit while maintaining 60% crit rate, 400% crit damage, and 20 ap on crit. If it takes you 2 shots to kill a white mob, what's the point of using a 1hander when you can 1-shot with a 2hander? You certainly don't attack twice as fast, and even with my gear (which, albeit good, is only in the dozens of million range), I can 1-shot pretty much all weaker mobs (archers, fallen, ghouls, etc.)
I also think ur going well over the top claiming 2 bill. he does not have same gear as u do to need such expensive upgrade.
besides u are not taking in consideration all the affixes u can put in an offhand, that u loose with a 2 hander, that will make it surpass that 2 hander. ive seen plenty of sources around a mill with 150 base damage + 7% crit chance + 120 int which would push the dps higher than that 2 hander. it will obviously be more expensive, but not as much as ur claiming, just need to be a bit constant with the bargain hunting in the ah.
Ps: for me the best route for 1h weapons is the slowest 1,2 ones with highest base damage and use the off hand to get it nearer to a 2 handers + the good dps affixes
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I'm well aware of the bonuses you can get with an offhand slot. I have taken that into consideration, churned out the numbers, and for any comparable gear up to the billions, one handers will always lose. Only when you start doing so much damage that you are double overkilling most mobs in a single shot with a 2h, does the 1h pull ahead due to faster speed.
I'm not here to discuss. I'm here to tell you, straight out, that you'll need epically expensive gear for a 1h to beat out a 2h. Like, enough money to buy a new car expensive. In all other scenarios, 2h is superior. Again, if you think I'm wrong and you're sticking to your 1h, that's your perogative. I'm just telling it the way I see it, and I'm fairly sure I have some damn impressive results to support my conclusions.
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Actually the offhand doesn't push its dps past a 2 hander. Or at least relatively. My 1 hander and offhand are ridiculously expensive, probably around the 70-80 mill range combined, but it still stays relatively close to my 1400 DPS 2 hander (maybe like 4k DPS above) which doesn't have any int on it, just a socket while my 1 hander has a socket and over 100 int. Again, I just use it for attack speed while staying at relatively the same overall DPS with arcane on crit. I mean sure, I could sell my offhand and 1 hand and look for a great 2 hander, but even if you do have the money finding one that surpasses what I have is not easy.
Honestly though, at higher gear levels they're relatively the same I think... I'm not gonna find a 2 hander that surpasses my setup under 50 mill. In any case, I'm holding out for a 1 hander with both crit dmg and a socket so you could potentially get like 150% crit dmg. Sadly those are like 90-100 mill.
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I used a 2-hander as well when I played Wizard. I finished Inferno two weeks ago, and I can comment about 2-hand vs 1-hand/offhand, since I've got similar DPS on it. I didn't have high-end items as well, and only used a 1200+ dps staff (1.00 aps) with 100+ int & vit bonuses. Around 51k dps, 580 allres, 5800 armor, 51k hp I believe were my end-game stats IIRC...
It really depends on the quality of your items, but generally a 2-hand is better just because of the cost (assuming you'll get your weapon from the AH). That staff cost me around 2 million, maybe more expensive now, but that's because of the INT and VIT bonuses it came with, but a decent 1300-1400 2-hand dps can be found now at that price. Similarly, looking for a 1-hand/off-hand setup that will do the same damage will cost you 10+ million.
That's assuming you're comparing only raw blue items that only has pure damage, with no other modifiers. Now if you got a sword/demi lich that has decent INT/VIT/socket, etc. then you'll have to crunch up the numbers on a spreadsheet and compare... To end my point, if you don't use a signature spell, there's no reason to do 1-hand/off-hand because you spend your time kiting and waiting for AP instead. You aren't taking advantage of the higher attack speed that way.
AO/hydra builds = 2-hand, since *generally* it doesn't come with a signature spell
Blizz/hydra/MM builds = 1-hand/off-hand, since you're snaring more mobs at a time with a higher slow rate, you will actually have a few seconds to stand and spam MM, so that suits the attack speed.
Though, I used a 2-hand with a blizz/hydra/mm build, but pre-patch I had 44% IAS, that made me attack faster (1.44 aps), so yeah. Now I play Barbarian, and I'm having a hard time progressing lol... No gold because I sold all my Wizard gear on the RMAH.
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Phael is mostly right, you have to find a source with 8 + % crit with at least 100-300 roll + int etc, along with a mainhand with stacked crit to make 1h very viable.
I still hate 2handers tho, and finding a 2h with crit + socket is just as expensive as trying to find a 1hander with it these days honestly.
I dont get the hate on archon, if you are geared properly you shouldnt die with it anyways, cooldown isnt that long etc. Cya isnt that difficult still, unless your super glass cannon, even after stripping my wizards gear for cash I can still do it fine with 400res all 32k life and 39k dps. Life on kill is a good stat to have while your in there, along with archon makes it much easier.
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Yah I think it depends on your build. For AO which is mostly AP limited, 2 hander is king.
Is there a resource somewhere showing all the places & amounts for crit damage and such?
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On June 21 2012 21:15 Yaotzin wrote:
Yah I think it depends on your build. For AO which is mostly AP limited, 2 hander is king.
Is there a resource somewhere showing all the places & amounts for crit damage and such?
Actually, whatever your build is, 2-hand is still king for the most part.
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On June 21 2012 13:15 Phael wrote:
I have 100k dps. I do 1 attack per second. My average weapon swing is therefor 100k.
You have 100k dps. You do 2 attacks per second. Your average weapon swing is therefor 50k.
In a 10 second window, I cast 10 charged blasts for 143k each totaling 1430k damage.
In a 10 second window, you cast 20 charged blasts for 71.5k each totaling 1430k damage.
What's the deal?
Yes, if we have the SAME weapon damage, and then I get more speed, my signature spells will do more dps. No shit. If I had more crit, crit damage, +elite damage, or int, I'd also do more dps. You're basically saying attack speed increases your dps - which quite obviously, it does.
But at the cost of other stats. If you're using a 1hander vs a 2hander, then your weapon damage is way down. Just compare the damage range on a wand vs that of a mace, it's not even close. If you're stacking attack speed on items, it comes at a cost (either gold, $$$, or other stats).
Every single wizard spell (with the possibility of hydra) is calculated based on weapon damage.
Weapon damage can be defined as: (the minimum damage on your weapon + maximum damage on your weapon)* int bonus/2.
I would never a 2H because a Source gives you way more stats and the all importance crit chance %. A Source can have 8.5% crit chance which is ~10k increase in DPS if you have good crit damage. A 1H just flat out does more DPS than a 2H because of the additional crit chance on the Source (not to mention any additional int, vit, etc).
This is true when you get a 1H weapon with lots of crit damage. Without that 2H may be comparable since it's mostly the crit % on Sources that flat out push them above 2H weapons and if you're not making use of that then it's probably not worth the extra cost.
Also Phael you're going a bit overboard. You're showing this guy who says he has ~$10 that you're critting for 500k when you know he can't afford even close to that gear for that much money lol. You're the one spreading misinformation to try to prove your point.
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On June 21 2012 21:22 trinxified wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 21:15 Yaotzin wrote:
Yah I think it depends on your build. For AO which is mostly AP limited, 2 hander is king.
Is there a resource somewhere showing all the places & amounts for crit damage and such? Actually, whatever your build is, 2-hand is still king for the most part.
Why? DPS is similar, 1hand has more stats.
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Ye I dont agree with that statement at all either. We also havent talked about overkill yet. A problem you even have with a 1 hander with the new focus on crit and critdamage. With a slower weapon this should be even worse.
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On June 21 2012 21:46 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 21:22 trinxified wrote:On June 21 2012 21:15 Yaotzin wrote:
Yah I think it depends on your build. For AO which is mostly AP limited, 2 hander is king.
Is there a resource somewhere showing all the places & amounts for crit damage and such? Actually, whatever your build is, 2-hand is still king for the most part. Why? DPS is similar, 1hand has more stats.
can you get 15-1600 weapon dps with an OH? i don't think so, not even close. maybe 1300 max. so you lose 15% dps.
8% crit < 15% weapon dps.
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Who cares about weapon dps ? Its all about overall dps of course.
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On June 21 2012 23:09 Kenpark wrote:
Who cares about weapon dps ? Its all about overall dps of course.
You're half-right, since it's all about the overall end result, but you do know that weapon DPS gives you the MOST because that's where everything is based from? Also, nearly all skills are based off weapon damage...
IAS, crit dmg, primary stat are all attributed towards what your weapon dps is....
Come to think of it, I don't even know what your statement means.
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On June 21 2012 22:51 Nizaris wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 21:46 Yaotzin wrote:On June 21 2012 21:22 trinxified wrote:On June 21 2012 21:15 Yaotzin wrote:
Yah I think it depends on your build. For AO which is mostly AP limited, 2 hander is king.
Is there a resource somewhere showing all the places & amounts for crit damage and such? Actually, whatever your build is, 2-hand is still king for the most part. Why? DPS is similar, 1hand has more stats. can you get 15-1600 weapon dps with an OH? i don't think so, not even close. maybe 1300 max. so you lose 15% dps. 8% crit < 15% weapon dps.
You forget that Sources give damage too. Best ones add 250 damage, multiply that by either 1.2 or 1.4 based on 1H weapon speed (more if it has IAS on weap) and suddenly you see that you are completely wrong in every way.
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On June 21 2012 22:51 Nizaris wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 21:46 Yaotzin wrote:On June 21 2012 21:22 trinxified wrote:On June 21 2012 21:15 Yaotzin wrote:
Yah I think it depends on your build. For AO which is mostly AP limited, 2 hander is king.
Is there a resource somewhere showing all the places & amounts for crit damage and such? Actually, whatever your build is, 2-hand is still king for the most part. Why? DPS is similar, 1hand has more stats. can you get 15-1600 weapon dps with an OH? i don't think so, not even close. maybe 1300 max. so you lose 15% dps. 8% crit < 15% weapon dps.
Best stuff on EU AH:
2hander:
1511DPS (1186-1538 damage, 1.11 aps)
1hander:
1184DPS (585-1107, 1.4 aps)
With a 80-370 source (good but certainly not perfect) that becomes:
1499 DPS (665-1477 damage, 1.4 aps)
So yeah, pretty similar. And that 1hander is some blue wand, could easily be better. Then of course, add in 8% crit and various other stats, and in fact the 1hander option has comfortably superior DPS.
Now, things change for AO and other AP limited builds. But for signature based builds? Better DPS, better control due to speed, and more stats. Comfortably the better option.
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On June 22 2012 00:10 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 22:51 Nizaris wrote:On June 21 2012 21:46 Yaotzin wrote:On June 21 2012 21:22 trinxified wrote:On June 21 2012 21:15 Yaotzin wrote:
Yah I think it depends on your build. For AO which is mostly AP limited, 2 hander is king.
Is there a resource somewhere showing all the places & amounts for crit damage and such? Actually, whatever your build is, 2-hand is still king for the most part. Why? DPS is similar, 1hand has more stats. can you get 15-1600 weapon dps with an OH? i don't think so, not even close. maybe 1300 max. so you lose 15% dps. 8% crit < 15% weapon dps. Best stuff on EU AH: 2hander: 1511DPS (1186-1538 damage, 1.11 aps) 1hander: 1184DPS (585-1107, 1.4 aps) With a 80-370 source (good but certainly not perfect) that becomes: 1499 DPS (665-1477 damage, 1.4 aps) So yeah, pretty similar. And that 1hander is some blue wand, could easily be better. Then of course, add in 8% crit and various other stats, and in fact the 1hander option has comfortably superior DPS. Now, things change for AO and other AP limited builds. But for signature based builds? Better DPS, better control due to speed, and more stats. Comfortably the better option.
Price check on those? That 1-hander is probably more expensive than the 2-hander itself.
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Same price. I was only making the point that 1hander+source is better for signature builds, not bringing the economics into it. It is indeed more expensive - no surprises there, 2 good items is harder to get than 1. It's certainly not the 2b club level though as someone said. Beating that 2h (@60m) surely wouldn't require more than 120m. I can't be bothered to search for a good source to confirm tho.
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So, I just realized that Magic Weapon got ninja-nerfed; tooltip's always said that it increases your damage by 10% (15% with Force Weapon rune), but in practice it used to give 20% damage (30% with Force Weapon). Now the damage bonus matches the tooltip, which means the skill got nerfed super hard. It feels like a waste of time now TBH.
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On June 22 2012 00:20 Yaotzin wrote:
Same price. I was only making the point that 1hander+source is better for signature builds, not bringing the economics into it. It is indeed more expensive - no surprises there, 2 good items is harder to get than 1. It's certainly not the 2b club level though as someone said. Beating that 2h (@60m) surely wouldn't require more than 120m. I can't be bothered to search for a good source to confirm tho.
Well most of us cannot afford the 50+ mil to get the top of the line gear. So let's bring some economics into it. I spent 1 million to get my 1 hander 960 dps 596-887 ish 1.3 AS another 1 million to get my offhand 60-220 dps 112 vit and 115 int + socket with 42 int gem + 2% knockback chance. I check auction house on occasion to see if the switch may be worth it and while I can get a 1200ish - 1300 dps 2 hander for 2 million and not "lose dps," I'd still lose the stats from the offhand dropping my HP by over 3500 and my int by 157. Furthmore I use signature spell + venom + blizzard and arcane dynamo passive. I'd have to switch to AO + venom + slow passive, which would actually lower my dps due to losing the 75% bonus damage i'd get every time i use blizzard to initiate.
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EPT
