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Hey All!
I just beat Diablo in ACT IV on Normal, I just had a goofy/fun build I used since it was normal however I wanted to move on to a build that would suffice for nightmare and I just can't quite decide on what to use. I've read through the discussion so far and I've come up with this build http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#bRXQjT!Yce!aZZaZZ . I am currently lvl 32.
The idea I had behind this was to start off with Mark of Death w/valley of death in area to target on the mobs, then fire entangling shot w chain gang and then elemental w frost arrow. Once targets are slowed fully and in the MoD area, just mow down with Multishot. Bat would be out for the hatred gen to spam Multishot as much as possible. I currently have a 2h bow with quiver, so taking full advantage of using the passive abilities of Steady Aim, Cull of the Weak and Archery would be in my best interest (my opinion, but probably wrong...possibly have Vengence in place of Steady Aim to allow more Hatred).
This build is intended only for Nightmare, as I plan on switching over to a SS, Vault, and Prep build when entering Hell for max survivability. I also intend to swap Elemental Arrow out for Impale on boss fights and possibly Entangling out for Bola Shot with Thunder Ball in order to had the stun. Boss fights I would also think about removing MoD for Vault.
I'm still debating pretty hard on a great nightmare build, as you can see, any recommendations or advice would be great.
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is it better dps to get dual wield crossbows or go 2handed cross with quiver?
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I love the bat for the regen but that dumbass has gotten me killed repeatedly.
"Oh is that a treasure goblin surrounded by 2 affixed packs of assholes just barely on your screen?"
"Im gonna go poke the treasure goblin"
On a side note i still got the goblins.
Edit: The ferrets are adorable and i'd use them 100% of the time if they picked up gold faster than i did.
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On May 23 2012 03:30 gostunv wrote:
is it better dps to get dual wield crossbows or go 2handed cross with quiver?
You need both xbows to be almost identical in DPS or you are usually better off with a quiver in my experience.
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Gostunv:
The consensus is just go with whatever gives you more +damage on your stats. Dual wield theoretically should be better leveling up because hand xbows tend to have higher stats than quivers do at a given item level.
If you're talking about theoretical end game dps, there is a thread somewhere on the b.net forums comparing the archery passive with dual handxbows vs bow vs xbow and what they found was:
a) bow > xbow in all cases
b) bow > handxbow unless
c) handxbow > bow granted you have enough +crit % and +damage on crit
I forget the exact numbers but I don't really think it's that relevant atm since we are no where near optimization.
Edit: the way dual wield dps is calculated is by averaging the damage between both hands and giving a +15% ias. That is, dual wield hand xbows only does more dps than bow/xbow + quiver if you can find both xbows with higher AVERAGE dps than the single bow/xbow. Quivers tend to give something like 10% ias compared to the 15% ias from dual wield so that's another thing to consider. Really, I would just go with what the game calculates as +damage.
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On May 23 2012 03:40 fuzzytoad wrote:
the way dual wield dps is calculated is by averaging the damage between both hands and giving a +15% ias. That is, dual wield hand xbows only does more dps than bow/xbow + quiver if you can find both xbows with higher AVERAGE dps than the single bow/xbow. Quivers tend to give something like 10% ias compared to the 15% ias from dual wield so that's another thing to consider. Really, I would just go with what the game calculates as +damage.
This is contradictory to what I have read in the past, which is that dual wield gives the +15% ias, but the attacks cycle between the two weapons. There is a explanation here
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On May 23 2012 03:57 karazax wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 03:40 fuzzytoad wrote:
the way dual wield dps is calculated is by averaging the damage between both hands and giving a +15% ias. That is, dual wield hand xbows only does more dps than bow/xbow + quiver if you can find both xbows with higher AVERAGE dps than the single bow/xbow. Quivers tend to give something like 10% ias compared to the 15% ias from dual wield so that's another thing to consider. Really, I would just go with what the game calculates as +damage. This is contradictory to what I have read in the past, which is that dual wield gives the +15% ias, but the attacks cycle between the two weapons. There is a explanation here
I think the display of "Damage" is done by the average, but the actual damage is the alteration of attacks.
Also am I the only one who thinks that 1h xbow + quiver is surprisingly not terrible? It's actually pretty good in my experience. With the right quiver you get an attack speed not much slower than dual wielding, but potentially more stats and faster than 2h (plus you get the crit % which eventually is not terrible and helps with night stalker). At the very least you gain +30 or more Dex by being able to socket a green gem and possibly more as you don't have 'wasted' stats on boosting the DPS of a weapon that only fires 1/2 the time.
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nice! very informative stuff from you guys thanx! i will try out dual wielding if i can.
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I don't see how Bow > 2h Xbow in all cases. If you have 30% crit you are getting on average a 15% DPS increase with a 2h Xbow passive. The more crit you have over that, then the higher the average dps increase, to a max of 50% DPS increase at 100% crit. Also, different stats are beneficial to either faster firing bows or slower firing crossbows. Example, Hatred Regeneration favors slow attack speeds because each hatred attack hits for more damage (since the attack speed is slower) while Hatred Reduction on abilities favors faster attack speed because you spend more time on average using the hatred attack (more hatred generation/hatred attacks but less damage per attack).
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Ok, i finally got why nether tentacles is better.
Ball of Lighting apparently gets resisted or something, it doesnt do the listed damage.
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On May 23 2012 04:33 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 03:57 karazax wrote:On May 23 2012 03:40 fuzzytoad wrote:
the way dual wield dps is calculated is by averaging the damage between both hands and giving a +15% ias. That is, dual wield hand xbows only does more dps than bow/xbow + quiver if you can find both xbows with higher AVERAGE dps than the single bow/xbow. Quivers tend to give something like 10% ias compared to the 15% ias from dual wield so that's another thing to consider. Really, I would just go with what the game calculates as +damage. This is contradictory to what I have read in the past, which is that dual wield gives the +15% ias, but the attacks cycle between the two weapons. There is a explanation here I think the display of "Damage" is done by the average, but the actual damage is the alteration of attacks. Also am I the only one who thinks that 1h xbow + quiver is surprisingly not terrible? It's actually pretty good in my experience. With the right quiver you get an attack speed not much slower than dual wielding, but potentially more stats and faster than 2h (plus you get the crit % which eventually is not terrible and helps with night stalker). At the very least you gain +30 or more Dex by being able to socket a green gem and possibly more as you don't have 'wasted' stats on boosting the DPS of a weapon that only fires 1/2 the time.
I haven't been able to find a dual weild combo where my character "Damage" numbers are higher than when i put a quiver in place of the weaker weapon, but I haven't purchased two high dmg end game 1h xbows yet. At lower levels though I was always getting better "damage" on my character sheet by using a quiver with as much dex as I could get and the higher dps of the two xbows.
I do wish you could see how much your damage would change with equipment you are looking at purchasing in the AH. You see the stat differences, but not how those changes will ultimately adjust your damage. When you are comparing with something in your bag it shows you how much your damage would change up or down if you equip that item, and the AH comparisions don't, or at least I haven't found a way to do it.
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On May 23 2012 02:00 MiyaviTeddy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 01:27 LaNague wrote:
ok why are people using nether tentacles over the electric one that has more ae? It goes in a straight line. It passes through everything. It is slow enough to hit a single target multiple times if the target is big enough. Lifesteal. Spammable.
ssso good thanks 
finishing hell atm
now i need only 1 slot for hatred waster (tentacles on everyone, bosses or groups, nevermind  ) and 1 for hatred generator
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On May 23 2012 03:40 fuzzytoad wrote:
Gostunv:
The consensus is just go with whatever gives you more +damage on your stats. Dual wield theoretically should be better leveling up because hand xbows tend to have higher stats than quivers do at a given item level.
If you're talking about theoretical end game dps, there is a thread somewhere on the b.net forums comparing the archery passive with dual handxbows vs bow vs xbow and what they found was:
a) bow > xbow in all cases
b) bow > handxbow unless
c) handxbow > bow granted you have enough +crit % and +damage on crit
I forget the exact numbers but I don't really think it's that relevant atm since we are no where near optimization.
Edit: the way dual wield dps is calculated is by averaging the damage between both hands and giving a +15% ias. That is, dual wield hand xbows only does more dps than bow/xbow + quiver if you can find both xbows with higher AVERAGE dps than the single bow/xbow. Quivers tend to give something like 10% ias compared to the 15% ias from dual wield so that's another thing to consider. Really, I would just go with what the game calculates as +damage.
Remember slower weapons use less hatred, give a high damage bonus to instant skills like fan of knives and are easier to kite and max DPS with.
For solo play smoke screen builds, I think if you have the choice DPS wise pick the slower weapon.
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On May 23 2012 06:31 Klive5ive wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 03:40 fuzzytoad wrote:
Gostunv:
The consensus is just go with whatever gives you more +damage on your stats. Dual wield theoretically should be better leveling up because hand xbows tend to have higher stats than quivers do at a given item level.
If you're talking about theoretical end game dps, there is a thread somewhere on the b.net forums comparing the archery passive with dual handxbows vs bow vs xbow and what they found was:
a) bow > xbow in all cases
b) bow > handxbow unless
c) handxbow > bow granted you have enough +crit % and +damage on crit
I forget the exact numbers but I don't really think it's that relevant atm since we are no where near optimization.
Edit: the way dual wield dps is calculated is by averaging the damage between both hands and giving a +15% ias. That is, dual wield hand xbows only does more dps than bow/xbow + quiver if you can find both xbows with higher AVERAGE dps than the single bow/xbow. Quivers tend to give something like 10% ias compared to the 15% ias from dual wield so that's another thing to consider. Really, I would just go with what the game calculates as +damage. Remember slower weapons use less hatred, give a high damage bonus to instant skills like fan of knives and are easier to kite and max DPS with. For solo play smoke screen builds, I think if you have the choice DPS wise pick the slower weapon.
Yep, damage per Hatred will be higher with a slow weapon. With the Bat, a slow weapon and some gear you can probably get rid of your Hatred generator entirely.
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On May 23 2012 06:33 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 06:31 Klive5ive wrote:On May 23 2012 03:40 fuzzytoad wrote:
Gostunv:
The consensus is just go with whatever gives you more +damage on your stats. Dual wield theoretically should be better leveling up because hand xbows tend to have higher stats than quivers do at a given item level.
If you're talking about theoretical end game dps, there is a thread somewhere on the b.net forums comparing the archery passive with dual handxbows vs bow vs xbow and what they found was:
a) bow > xbow in all cases
b) bow > handxbow unless
c) handxbow > bow granted you have enough +crit % and +damage on crit
I forget the exact numbers but I don't really think it's that relevant atm since we are no where near optimization.
Edit: the way dual wield dps is calculated is by averaging the damage between both hands and giving a +15% ias. That is, dual wield hand xbows only does more dps than bow/xbow + quiver if you can find both xbows with higher AVERAGE dps than the single bow/xbow. Quivers tend to give something like 10% ias compared to the 15% ias from dual wield so that's another thing to consider. Really, I would just go with what the game calculates as +damage. Remember slower weapons use less hatred, give a high damage bonus to instant skills like fan of knives and are easier to kite and max DPS with. For solo play smoke screen builds, I think if you have the choice DPS wise pick the slower weapon. Yep, damage per Hatred will be higher with a slow weapon. With the Bat, a slow weapon and some gear you can probably get rid of your Hatred generator entirely.
You will get into trouble when you need to start kiting stuff, though. I've been playing around with both dual wielded handxbows, handxbow+quiv and bow + quiv, and I vastly prefer bow + quiv. It seems to have the best balance between speed and damage (which really matters at the end of NM and at the start of Hell).
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Atm on Inferno I'm using
Multishot: Supression Fire
Smoke Screen: Lingering Fog
Preparation: Backup Plan
Vault: Acrobatics (Trying it instead of my old Bola Shot: Bitter Pill)
Entangling Shot: Justice Is Served
Impale: Chemical Burn
Passives: Archery, Tactical Advantage, Steady Aim
I'm not dual wielding atm or else I'd probably have the crit to warrant Grievous Wounds Impale.
Just concerned with smoke screening and having discipline pretty much all the time while having the damage to dps elite packs down before i run out of discipline for stealth. For boss fights instead of using Entangling I used to use Bitter Pill Bola just for better Disc generation. And if I was dual wielding xbows I'd probably swap Tactical Advantage for the Discipline on crit passive. On AOE packs it's basically infinite stealth because of multishot and on bosses you can just stealth the Belial meteors and melee and butcher aoe chain thing or whatever. And when you're waiting on prep/discipline you still have vault.
Edit: Also I didn't realise smokescreen broke all cc like jail and stun and made you immune to pretty much all damage but molten and reflects until near the end of hell. Thus ended the tale of the vaulting DH 
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On May 23 2012 10:57 PlayerSFoxeR wrote:Atm on Inferno I'm using Multishot: Supression Fire Smoke Screen: Lingering Fog Preparation: Backup Plan Vault: Acrobatics (Trying it instead of my old Bola Shot: Bitter Pill) Entangling Shot: Justice Is Served Impale: Chemical Burn Passives: Archery, Tactical Advantage, Steady Aim I'm not dual wielding atm or else I'd probably have the crit to warrant Grievous Wounds Impale. Just concerned with smoke screening and having discipline pretty much all the time while having the damage to dps elite packs down before i run out of discipline for stealth. For boss fights instead of using Entangling I used to use Bitter Pill Bola just for better Disc generation. And if I was dual wielding xbows I'd probably swap Tactical Advantage for the Discipline on crit passive. On AOE packs it's basically infinite stealth because of multishot and on bosses you can just stealth the Belial meteors and melee and butcher aoe chain thing or whatever. And when you're waiting on prep/discipline you still have vault. Edit: Also I didn't realise smokescreen broke all cc like jail and stun and made you immune to pretty much all damage but molten and reflects until near the end of hell. Thus ended the tale of the vaulting DH
i tried that, but of you go with one of the better elemental wrroes instead of multishot, you will basically more than double your damage, which saves time and also makes up for the loss of disc regen from multishot.
give it a try, i liked it better. Be aware, lightning bolt only does half of its listed damage!
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Multishot + Suppression Fire means you can permanently stay in Smokescreen against +4 enemies with the proper passives and runes.
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K so nether tentacles or lightning ball for inferno?
Also, do they do more single target dps vs bosses than devouring arrow?
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On May 23 2012 13:31 Chairman Ray wrote:
K so nether tentacles or lightning ball for inferno?
Also, do they do more single target dps vs bosses than devouring arrow?
Lifesteal is useless. I prefer frost over lightning just cause it travels faster and aoe's just as well imo. Better for kiting too.
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EPT
