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On December 02 2010 17:26 ComusLoM wrote:
This just firmly kept myself in the blizzard gom camp. I've had a healthy distrust for Kespa ever since they cancelled the GOM Classic by not allowing players. If anyone doesn't want SC1 to continue it's them considering the huge amount Kespa themselves are wanting for broadcast fees.
People who are saying Blizzard are trying to suck the broadcasters dry should know the only reason their profits aren't great is because of the huge fees they have to pay kespa. And the players really aren't that much better off with huge practice regimes and having to pay some if not all of their prize money back to their teams.
You seem to attribute a lot of the actions or protocol of individual teams as KeSPA's own.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES51083 Posts
On December 02 2010 17:11 Selith wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 16:16 butter wrote:
Kim & Chang? Is that like Flash & Jaedong of law firms? I looked around a bit. Turns out Kim & Chang is indeed the Flash & Jaedong of law firms in South Korea. Basically, elites of the elite lawyers are there. Supposedly, even some of the bigger corporations find it rather expensive to hire them. Edit: I found some information on this. Is on Fomos. Holy crap, they really are Flash & Jaedong of the law firms. + Show Spoiler +--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blizzard Entertainment hired Korean law firm, Kim & Jang (Chang is also a way to say 장) to represent them in the IP rights lawsuit.
Paul Sams said during the press conference that, "In regards to the lawsuit, we are cooperating with Korea's best law firm, "Kim & Jang".
Law firm Kim & Jang was founded in 1973, with history spanning for over 30 years. Based on 2010's data, this massive law firm has over 450 lawyers belonging to this firm, and has earned over 350,000,000,000 won in yearly profits. Especially, the law firm is known for being the leader in IP rights area.
The law firm has been selected as the best law firm in South Korea by the world-renowned Chambers and Partners' yearly publication, Chambers Asia.
In addition, the law firm has been selected as the best law firm in IP rights area by the professional magazine "Managing Intellectual Property" (managed under Euromoney).
According to MIP, in June 2010, Kim & Jang has been no.1 in areas dealing with applying for patents, patent lawsuit, trademark registration, trademark lawsuit, and intellectual property. Also, since 2006, Kim & Jang has been selected the best law firm for IP rights area for 4 years straight.
It is expected there will be a fierce courtroom drama with Blizzard hiring Kim & Jang as their law firm, the firm known for being the very best in IP rights area of the law.
woah.....so this is how scary a fusion of flash and jaedong can be.
the irony is that should blizzard win we might not be seeing much of flash or jaedong.
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Estonia4505 Posts
On December 02 2010 18:00 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 17:11 Selith wrote:On December 02 2010 16:16 butter wrote:
Kim & Chang? Is that like Flash & Jaedong of law firms? I looked around a bit. Turns out Kim & Chang is indeed the Flash & Jaedong of law firms in South Korea. Basically, elites of the elite lawyers are there. Supposedly, even some of the bigger corporations find it rather expensive to hire them. Edit: I found some information on this. Is on Fomos. Holy crap, they really are Flash & Jaedong of the law firms. + Show Spoiler +--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blizzard Entertainment hired Korean law firm, Kim & Jang (Chang is also a way to say 장) to represent them in the IP rights lawsuit.
Paul Sams said during the press conference that, "In regards to the lawsuit, we are cooperating with Korea's best law firm, "Kim & Jang".
Law firm Kim & Jang was founded in 1973, with history spanning for over 30 years. Based on 2010's data, this massive law firm has over 450 lawyers belonging to this firm, and has earned over 350,000,000,000 won in yearly profits. Especially, the law firm is known for being the leader in IP rights area.
The law firm has been selected as the best law firm in South Korea by the world-renowned Chambers and Partners' yearly publication, Chambers Asia.
In addition, the law firm has been selected as the best law firm in IP rights area by the professional magazine "Managing Intellectual Property" (managed under Euromoney).
According to MIP, in June 2010, Kim & Jang has been no.1 in areas dealing with applying for patents, patent lawsuit, trademark registration, trademark lawsuit, and intellectual property. Also, since 2006, Kim & Jang has been selected the best law firm for IP rights area for 4 years straight.
It is expected there will be a fierce courtroom drama with Blizzard hiring Kim & Jang as their law firm, the firm known for being the very best in IP rights area of the law. woah.....so this is how scary a fusion of flash and jaedong can be. the irony is that should blizzard win we might not be seeing much of flash or jaedong.
Not in BW anyway. 
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In my ideal world, an esport governing body must have EQUAL numbers of of representatives from the following four groups:
- Group 1: Players and coaches
- Group 2: Broadcasters and media
- Group 3: Game makers
- Group 4: Sponsors
Each of these 4 groups bring something important and irreplaceable to the table. Each of these 4 groups has a distinct set of interests, while all of them share a common interest in esports. When there is a conflict, each group should have 25% of the power to decide on the matter.
In my opinion, the KeSPA model is flawed because it only consists of group 4 (sponsors) and group 2 (broadcasters) with group 4 having the most say. Group 4 sees group 1 (players and coaches) more like their assets to control group 2. While group 3 (game makers) is totally left out of the equation. In this flawed model, group 1's rights and interests will be violated at times, an IP rights with group 3 is inevitable.
In my wildest dreams I could only wish a new esport governing body will be formed by all the 4 groups together, in which SCBW and Starcraft 2 will co-exist together. Doesn't seem to be realistic any time soon though.
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On December 02 2010 15:54 IntoTheEmo wrote:
Find it hard to believe that Korea is only 5% of their profits? Is WoW not popular there? Then again that's probably why they had SC2 come free with a WoW subscription.
Here is you reason for only 5%. The man speaks truth ;P
SC2 boosted Blizzard income in every region except the Korea.
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I don't know what Kespa is counting on, but Blizzard is going to win on both the "legal" frontier and the "public support" frontier at the end of all this. I guess the transition was inevitable, but it could have been so much easier...
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A for profit company not wanting profits.
A non-profit organization not wanting profits.
Hmm I'm skeptical
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On December 02 2010 14:22 Arikuna wrote:Thanks for the translation. Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 14:08 OreoBoi wrote:
First thing he says is
While we see South Korea as an important market, the profits gained is not that big in comparison to overall earnings worldwide.
Then he says:
Blizzard does not see e-sports as a source of profits. The reason why we are in negotiations with game TV channels for licensing is to get our IP rights acknowledged, not to get profits."
I don't understand talking about profits and then saying you don't want profits. He is trying to say that Blizzard is not greedy, since their profits from sales in South Korea are not that big and acknowledging their IP rights is the least anyone could do for them.
I would imagine there would be a higher profits from e-sports/broadcasting/public support/conglomerate teams participating in their leagues rather than sales alone especially in Korea.
EDIT: spelling
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Russian Federation4405 Posts
5%? LOL! Yes, I mean, this is an exact number NOW. But where would they have been without the success of starcraft, that induced the sales of other games (Warcraft 3, and then WoW) WORLDWIDE. T_T Another rhetoric and tricky statement only to mislead. Another lie.
Let's read further...
Hourra, they didn't at least request stopping the broadcasting!
I think, the best decision by NOW would be to insert commercials of Blizz' products and blizz's logo into the broadcastings and let them go. Fucking yes, when they would such of confirm that these leagues are out of threat, then everyone would fucking turn their head back to them... maybe even play their other games (i'd maybe get a Stacraft 2 and diablo 3).
But let me say i don't believe anything of these words, until the leagues are ACTUALLY out of danger.
On December 02 2010 18:04 mrdx wrote:
In my ideal world, an esport governing body must have EQUAL numbers of of representatives from the following four groups:
- Group 1: Players and coaches
- Group 2: Broadcasters and media
- Group 3: Game makers
- Group 4: Sponsors
Yep, I too think soo. But where they've been before 2010? Why did not they participate in this before. And make something to sustain e-sports themselves. But if now they do make, still would be good.
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Russian Federation4405 Posts
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Russian Federation4405 Posts
edited into 1 post instead of 3
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On December 02 2010 17:28 Milkis wrote:
The issue is that MBC/OGN/KeSPA has a very different idea of "Recognizing IP rights" than Blizzard does. Who is right? Who knows.
When it comes to IP Rights, the advantage is with Blizzard:
1) By default (or as known in the rest of the rest of the world), Starcraft is Blizzard's property. Now it is possible to claim in court that certain aspects of the game isn't Blizzard's (i.e. it's public) but you'd have to prove that claim. (Of course there are also other deciding factors, such as rules of the country you're in [good luck enforcing IP rights in Taiwan for example] but in general, it's easier to prove Blizzard's claim than KeSPA's. That's not to say Blizzard's side is sure to win in such a lawsuit, but they have the advantage.)
2) In general, it's also bad form to break terms [b]during negotiations. Surprisingly, based on the interview, Blizzard didn't file an injunction (which would halt the airing of BroodWar until everything can be settled in court) and just filed a lawsuit.
EDIT: Also, I don't buy the "barrier to entry" bullshit. If so, they would need to do it once, not for every contract. Doing it for every contract does not go along with "Barriers to entry", it's just a transaction cost at that point -_-
Sorry but that's how the real world works. Licenses (and franchises) are usually for a set period of time (usually one year but terms can be negotiated). The company needs to prove that they're still fit and able to produce the shows. OGN ten years from now for example might not be as capable as OGN last year.
A "regular" license fee is reasonable.
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I don't get this still, Blizzard sues KeSPA/OGN/MBC.... BW scene gets affected....then the companies go into the red broadcasting / hosting BW tournament due to the increased costs (so i heard).... BW gets shut down -> lose:lose situation.
The only people I see benefiting from this are the lawyers involved, free bank loot anyone?
They should just wake up and use the money they are giving to the lawyers to help improve the scene instead of squabbling over something like IP rights.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES51083 Posts
On December 02 2010 18:46 _Quasar_ wrote:
But let me say i don't believe anything of these words, until the leagues are ACTUALLY out of danger.
you probably will have to wait a while then.Also please edit your main post instead of triple posting.
On December 02 2010 18:48 IrT4nkz wrote:
I don't get this still, Blizzard sues KeSPA/OGN/MBC.... BW scene gets affected....then the companies go into the red broadcasting / hosting BW tournament due to the increased costs (so i heard).... BW gets shut down -> lose:lose situation.
The only people I see benefiting from this are the lawyers involved, free bank loot anyone?
They should just wake up and use the money they are giving to the lawyers to help improve the scene instead of squabbling over something like IP rights.
from what I hear Blizzard is asking for less from the broadcasters than from KeSPA.Should Blizzard win and KeSPA disbands,they would just have to pay blizzard.But the big problem is that the proleague model belongs to KeSPA.
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On December 02 2010 18:45 _Quasar_ wrote:
I think, the best decision by NOW would be to insert commercials of Blizz' products and blizz's logo into the broadcastings and let them go. Fucking yes, when they would such of confirm that these leagues are out of threat, then everyone would fucking turn their head back to them... maybe even play their other games (i'd maybe get a Stacraft 2 and diablo 3).
Wouldn't work. I don't think you understand what's at stake here.
Blizzard wants the companies/organizations to acknowledge (publicly and in writing) that Starcraft is their Intellectual Property. Showing Blizzard products and logos wouldn't explicitly do that. It might suggest that implicitly, but that doesn't help Blizzard from a legal (and philosophical) standpoint.
What's at risk here? If Blizzard doesn't stand up to its IP rights, it stands to lose them as this will set a precedent. (For example, while Trademarks aren't IP Rights, Xerox is constantly at risk of losing its trademark [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genericized_trademark] [i.e. Xerox = photocopiers] if it doen't uphold them). Blizzard (and other similar companies) stands to lose a lot of money if a precedent is established as other countries/companies/organizations might use Blizzard's other products for their own profit without permission from Blizzard. (Blizzard's case is weaker with each defeat in court.)
The Google Settlement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Book_Search_Settlement_Agreement) is perceived as wrong by authors and the publishing company because of its violation of copyright law (again, copyright law is not IP but they're similar). Google follows a "I'll use this now for my own benefit and apologize later." KeSPA/OGN/MBC are currently incurring a similar infraction although it's worse (Google plans to compensate authors eventually, KeSPA/OGN/MBC have no intention of doing so).
It's interesting if KeSPA manages to prove that broadcasting Starcraft is public property but until then, it's bad for Blizzard as a company/corporation to let this slide, not even for good PR.
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Russian Federation4405 Posts
Mod edit: Keep posts like this out of this topic. Either discuss things calmly and rationally, or get warned from now on.
T_T
What's with the "model belongs" -___-
It's just a standard round tournament model. Do you say that lets say Korean soccer leagues' model belongs to someone? T___T NO. Seriously, fuck them all. With their #$%$%% IP rights.
I still think Blizzard's wrong. What the hell? Dudes, you're talking that you seek NO PROFIT IN E-SPORTS, then you DEMAND MONEY from e-sport companies. When you're not spending money on sustaining e-sports, you don't lose anything so you want to GET PROFIT. Motherficking rhetorics. They still want to fool anyone and be white and furry.
I'm 1000000000% sure that if they win, they'll do NOTHING to starcraft and say Oh we won??? Oops. SC leagues are closed, go to hell everyone.
If Blizzard TRULY WANTS Starcraft and its sequel to co-exist, they must make it no matter what, especially in the case they're trying to destroy the organisation that was previously doing this. -____- Otherwise they're just a piece of s**t, who is full of lie.
And this trying to draw fire from themselves and make anyone blame KeSPA. I would have to personally say that I trust KeSPA more than Activision. The reason is the amount of lie we already heard from Activision/Blizzard. Yes it will be good to make a compromise, but I'm to 0% sure that Blizzard is actually wanting this.
And still 5% is ONLY NUMBER OF NOW. They badasses didn't mention what percentage of profit was there by all time. And they did not of course mention how the success of Starcraft affected success of all their other games - and so, how Starcraft in Korea affected their (good) history. They didn't tell anything of this, although this is all truth. They've just underlined their liked points and have hidden the worst for them.
Please go to hell Blizzard. I don't trust any of your words unless you let Starcraft live. -____-
If you want "acknowledgement of your ip rights", then KeSPA / OGN / MBC please acknowledge it and do nothing more. Let's see how they truly would react at something they reportedly "only wanted". -____-
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Whether korea makes up 5% of their global sales or not, the korean pros are responsible for much more across the world.
The top koreans are looked up to by many many aspiring gamers, they show blizz games played at a very high level, they show a potential in blizz games that blizz themselves could not come close to showing.
Also anyone that thinks this is just about the IP rights themselves is a bit naive imo.
The IP rights are important to blizz because they are potential revenue... when they weren't potential revenue blizz didn't care what you did with their games.
Blizz wants control of their games, that's fine, but then we shouldn't use their games as e-sports, because their priority is not to grow e-sports, it's to use e-sports in ways that are lucrative for them.
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- You have said reverently in regards to rights of the players . But SC 2 leagues seem to have less of the rights for the players than SC 1.
Hahahahaha. How can you have less rights than a BW progamer? I think you'd have to descend to actual slavery to have less rights than a typical BW progamer (or so the whisperings in the community have led me to believe).
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United States238 Posts
On December 02 2010 19:12 _Quasar_ wrote:
Please go to hell Blizzard. I don't trust any of your words unless you let Starcraft live. -____-
If you want "acknowledgement of your ip rights", then KeSPA / OGN / MBC please acknowledge it and do nothing more. Let's see how they truly would react at something they reportedly "only wanted". -____-
The problem is, KeSPA / OGN / MBC doesn't want to ever acknowledge that StarCraft's IP right belongs to Blizzard. In fact, KeSPA is adamant that StarCraft is a complete public property.
I think other game companies that are interested in being part of Korean e-sports scene is watching this very carefully. No game developers in their sane mind, want their games becoming public property just because it is part of e-sports scene.
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Russian Federation4405 Posts
On December 02 2010 19:02 charlesatan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 18:45 _Quasar_ wrote:
I think, the best decision by NOW would be to insert commercials of Blizz' products and blizz's logo into the broadcastings and let them go. Fucking yes, when they would such of confirm that these leagues are out of threat, then everyone would fucking turn their head back to them... maybe even play their other games (i'd maybe get a Stacraft 2 and diablo 3). Wouldn't work. I don't think you understand what's at stake here. Blizzard wants the companies/organizations to acknowledge (publicly and in writing) that Starcraft is their Intellectual Property. Showing Blizzard products and logos wouldn't explicitly do that. It might suggest that implicitly, but that doesn't help Blizzard from a legal (and philosophical) standpoint. What's at risk here? If Blizzard doesn't stand up to its IP rights, it stands to lose them as this will set a precedent. (For example, while Trademarks aren't IP Rights, Xerox is constantly at risk of losing its trademark [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genericized_trademark] [i.e. Xerox = photocopiers] if it doen't uphold them). Blizzard (and other similar companies) stands to lose a lot of money if a precedent is established as other countries/companies/organizations might use Blizzard's other products for their own profit without permission from Blizzard. (Blizzard's case is weaker with each defeat in court.) The Google Settlement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Book_Search_Settlement_Agreement) is perceived as wrong by authors and the publishing company because of its violation of copyright law (again, copyright law is not IP but they're similar). Google follows a "I'll use this now for my own benefit and apologize later." KeSPA/OGN/MBC are currently incurring a similar infraction although it's worse (Google plans to compensate authors eventually, KeSPA/OGN/MBC have no intention of doing so). It's interesting if KeSPA manages to prove that broadcasting Starcraft is public property but until then, it's bad for Blizzard as a company/corporation to let this slide, not even for good PR.
A precedent? Name any other community that has done that many to sustain one Blizzard game's popularity as Korea to starcraft. I think you don't find. So if some side company wants to get a piece of pie of SC2 for example, then Blizz would go and sue them. =__= But they don't show respect to gaming community of Korea.
And why are they asking money from them, if they only want acknowledgement? And why last Blizzard/Gretech's offer involved such a conditions that took very much of profit to Blizz/Grtech?
Well, now I'm waiting for gaming community (KESPA or whoever) to make their move.
For me, the optimal variant would be this:
- "Yes we acknowledge your rights - you are the owner of this game and have the rights on it."
- "We want to continue broadcasting SC as we care about e-sports"
- "We've done something to sustain it, so don't you think that some product of it belongs to us, too, it is not that all that's created involving your property automatically belongs to you." It's also a philosophic point i think =\
- "We acknowledge that if not your game, that all wouldn't be. So... regarding that, we ask you for some lighter conditions of contract than it would be to an "ordinary" company, who didn't affect your company's success history as much as we did"
P.S.: And last. Koreans MUST cooperate. With it it would be much, much easier to protect their good name, and their right point (and there are some right points) in this situation. Paul Sams said much, but there was some lie. They have to cooperate, to protect themselves and earn the respect that they deserve. Then probably Activision (since there's Bobby Kotick i already have 0% faith in it) Blizzard (!) would show its good side too. Not only the bad and full of lie they've been showing.
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EPT
