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United States238 Posts
Source: http://news.naver.com/main/hotissue/read.nhn?mid=hot&sid1=105&gid=321647&cid=303948&iid=301529&oid=277&aid=0002503180&ptype=011
Further edit 1: Translated the interview from Milkis' link.
Further edit 2: Added few bits from Fomos version.
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Blizzard Entertainment -- global game development company that made StarCraft -- set forth today to clarify on the misunderstanding that some seem to have in regards to how much profit Blizzard is getting in South Korea.
Today (Dec. 2nd), COO Paul Sams from Blizzard Entertainment opened a press conference in South Korea. In this, he specifically said that the amount of profit that Blizzard gets from South Korea is about 5% of overall global sales. This is the first time where Blizzard officially stated just exactly how much profits Blizzard is getting in South Korean market.
This can be seen as a way to diffuse the bad press regarding "Blizzard, who has been getting massive profits through selling StarCraft, are also demanding StarCraft IP rights for e-sports."
This day, COO Paul Sams stated, "I visited South Korea to look over the issue related to StarCraft's IP rights. I want to clarify all the misunderstandings regarding Blizzard and the IP rights."
He continued, "I've read a news article where Korean sales takes up 60% of Blizzard's overall profits. While we see South Korea as an important market, the profits gained is not that big in comparison to overall earnings worldwide. For last 3 years, Blizzard Korea has only earned 5% of overall worldwide sales, and this is smaller than profits earned within Korea by companies such as HanGame, NCSoft, Nexon, NeoWiz, CJInternet, and other Korean online game companies."
He continued, "But South Korea is still an important market for Blizzard, and we will listen to what the Korean users have to say. Also, I have lots of special memories of South Korea. We have around 300 employees in our Korean division, and we are the only foreign game company that participated in GStar the most."
While this announcement does not state in-depth information on their sales, but it did officially state just how much profits did Blizzard get in South Korea, a controversy that has been doing on for a while.
Paul Sams stated, "Blizzard does not see e-sports as a source of profits. The reason why we are in negotiations with game TV channels for licensing is to get our IP rights acknowledged, not to get profits."
He also stated, "I believe South Korea is a place where IP rights of the developers are considered important. There's a reason why G20 has opened in Seoul. It is very important that the rights of the original IP holder is protected. I also know very well just how strict South Korea is with issues relating to IP rights. That's why USA has removed South Korea from the list of "IP rights violating country". As seen here, I believe IP rights is a very important issue."
He stressed, "A little of broadcasting fee and acknowledging IP rights is the basis needed to provide high quality shows for the fans and e-sports players." In addition, he stated, "I know that KeSPA demanded 1,700,000,000 won for broadcasting fee over the last 3 years for broadcasting Proleague in 2007. They don't have the rights to do that. In addition, the yearly broadcasting fee that KeSPA wants is still 5 times more than what GomTV is requesting KeSPA to pay. Also, this licensing fee wouldn't even impact our profits, which you can find out by seeing our financial statements."
Continued, he stated, "Blizzard has invested massive amount of money to develop StarCraft. Trying to set it apart into a public property is completely destroying the IP rights of the developer, and it will certainly reduce amount of investments for further creative game developments."
Currently, Blizzard has filed a lawsuit against MBCGame and OnGameNet through e-sports/broadcasting partner, Gretech(GomTV).
Paul Sams added, "We are considering to file a lawsuit against KeSPA as well as the broadcasting companies. We do hope that we can finalize the negotiations, but we are discussing with the lawyers in case the negotiations are not successful."
He also said, "We cannot state anything about what is exactly going on in the negotiations due to the NDA. GomTV is still in progress of negotiating with the broadcasters. Only in South Korea, our IP rights are not being acknowledged and protected."
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Interview from link by Milkis: http://osen.mt.co.kr/news/view.html?mCode=C01&gid=G1012020102&page=1
- Is there any reason for owning rights to IP and derivative secondary works?
* We talked about the "60%" after seeing a different news. South Korea only brings in 5% of overall global sales. I think that, one would need a permission from the content IP rights holder, in regards to the international IP rights law. Blizzard owns the IP rights [to StarCraft]. Negotiations are done by GomTV. As for the derivative secondary works, GomTV is involved in the talks with that as the licensing partner. The whole "Blizzard demands 50% ownership of derivative secondary works", I cannot confirm for you since I am not the one involved in that argument. There's also the NDA. But, I think should the secondary works be broadcasted, then there needs to be the contracts and negotiations in place first, as it is commercialization. As for the secondary works of the progamers, one must think of their image and marketing when they participate in the league and the team. I think one can state them in the contract.
- What is the meaning of this, as an IP rights holder?
* First, GomTV is the exclusive business partner for SC1 and SC2 in South Korea. Because MBCGame and OnGameNet refused to sign the IP rights licensing contract, they are violating our IP rights. It is not right for them to broadcast when the negotiations are still in progress. So, I think our IP rights are being violated by some broadcasters.
- Why didn't you request an injunction to stop broadcasting?
* Blizzard and GomTV has always been participating in the negotiations in the good faith. Any other companies in our situation would never have the same patience we have. We still acknowledge South Korea as an important market. But now, I think there is no answer other than the lawsuit. If we really wanted to get done with this faster, we would have filed an injunction. I think that in order to broadcast, a proper license is required. So, we filed an lawsuit in the basis of IP rights violation without filing an injunction first.
- Seems there would only be waste of time arguing if injunction is not filed.
* We have not decided if we want to do it. Negotiations are continuing with GomTV. We will decide after how this negotiation goes. We will see once and for all through the IP rights violation lawsuit. I know that the broadcasters can continue to broadcast, but I hope that GomTV can finally successfully end the negotiation with them. We will also help the arbitrators in this negotiation as well. There are rumors that SC1 might not be allowed to broadcast anymore, but we hope this is not the case. I personally love StarCraft 1. As long as there is the game and the fans, it will continue to be.
- You have said reverently in regards to rights of the players . But SC 2 leagues seem to have less of the rights for the players than SC 1.
* As for the rights of the players, we first, need the freedom. Existing players under KeSPA, due to their contract, they can't participate in other leagues. We believe that we can give the progamers the chance to freely choose. If progamers so wish, they should be allowed to participate in any other leagues. In the past, KeSPA did not give the progamers any freedom. Right now, if the progamers wish so, they can return to StarCraft 1 after playing SC 2. The progamers need to have the freedom to choose what they want to play.
We can also see what can happen when Blizzard does not participate as a partner in e-sports that makes use of Blizzard games. I've seen the match fixing scandal, and I've also seen how Lee Yun-Yeol (NaDa) had his record and his achievements completely nullified just because he chose to play a game he wanted to play. This is obviously not fair. So, that is why we are trying hard to protect our IP rights. We want to grow e-sports and progamers through right methods.
- It is said Blizzard wants at least 700,000,000 won from the Korean market. Is that true? And why is this IP rights problem only in South Korea?
* The licensing fee is there to say that if they wish to use our content, they need to be capable of producing high quality content. When problems relating to intellectual rights is dealt with, the fee can be adjusted as needed. GomTV seems to have requested a fair amount as well. MBCGame and OGN are both ignoring our intellectual rights as well as not participating properly in the negotiations. Once the IP rights problem is dealt with, GomTV and Blizzard can adjust the licensing fee. This is not for the profits, but to protect our IP rights. To operate a business, it is important, as the holder of the IP, to get our IP rights protected.
All markets, including South Korea, request the rights to use our content. Of course, we cannot state exactly how much they needed to pay, but other markets do also pay as well. China and Taiwan came to us first, to get the license needed. We will finalize the licensing for broadcasting as well. It is not right to say that China has different situation than South Korea. This is same anywhere else including Europe.
- Any special benefits being prepared for the progamers?
* First, GomTV is operating GSL. They are trying their best to give the most optimal environment. We think the passion GomTV is showing is an enough of an answer for the gamers. It has only been few months since the start of GSL. We don't have the kind of base that SC 1 has, but we believe for sure that GSL can provide the same kind of environment that SC 1 has. We tried our best for last 3 years to find an agreement. We did think of what to do for the player compensation as well.
GomTV will announce plans for GSL in 2011. There will be compensations for the progamers. We will help them find a chance of getting private sponsorship. This is an example of what GomTV is doing for the players. While most players are trying to find a team, we will help them find a sponsorship.
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Edit: I found some information on the law firm representing Blizzard. It is on Fomos. Holy crap, they really are Flash & Jaedong of the law firms.
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Blizzard Entertainment hired Korean law firm, Kim & Jang (Chang is also a way to say 장) to represent them in the IP rights lawsuit.
Paul Sams said during the press conference that, "In regards to the lawsuit, we are cooperating with Korea's best law firm, "Kim & Jang".
Law firm Kim & Jang was founded in 1973, with history spanning for over 30 years. Based on 2010's data, this massive law firm has over 450 lawyers belonging to this firm, and has earned over 350,000,000,000 won in yearly profits. Especially, the law firm is known for being the leader in IP rights area.
The law firm has been selected as the best law firm in South Korea by the world-renowned Chambers and Partners' yearly publication, Chambers Asia.
In addition, the law firm has been selected as the best law firm in IP rights area by the professional magazine "Managing Intellectual Property" (managed under Euromoney).
According to MIP, in June 2010, Kim & Jang has been no.1 in areas dealing with applying for patents, patent lawsuit, trademark registration, trademark lawsuit, and intellectual property. Also, since 2006, Kim & Jang has been selected the best law firm for IP rights area for 4 years straight.
It is expected there will be a fierce courtroom drama with Blizzard hiring Kim & Jang as their law firm, the firm known for being the very best in IP rights area of the law.
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United States7481 Posts
thanks for the translation, hopefully something can be worked out so sc2 and scbw can coexist.
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5003 Posts
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man wish he provided more information
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Sounds like they're using misleading numbers to serve the very agenda the site pointed to. "5% of total sales" sounds like they're solely counting game sales, despite Korea having a different marketing scheme than the rest of the world. Color me cynical: this all sounds like more rhetoric to make them look better in light of their lawsuits.
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First thing he says is
While we see South Korea as an important market, the profits gained is not that big in comparison to overall earnings worldwide.
Then he says:
Blizzard does not see e-sports as a source of profits. The reason why we are in negotiations with game TV channels for licensing is to get our IP rights acknowledged, not to get profits."
I don't understand talking about profits and then saying you don't want profits.
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
well i dont really know if we got anything new out of that....
but thanks for translating
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49984 Posts
If they don't want profits I think they should just use those profits to invest in the broadcasting compaines...
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Estonia4504 Posts
On December 02 2010 14:13 BLinD-RawR wrote:
If they don't want profits I think they should just use those profits to invest in the broadcasting compaines...
This is what I want too. I'd completely understand them wanting 50% of the control, if they themselves showed willingness to invest heavily in the scene, like in the GSL. When they only take away money, it makes it that much more one-sided and less acceptable.
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because people have called there move into korea nothing more then a money issue and they're saying its not.. they dont have huge profits from SK and they just want IP acknowledgement.
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On December 02 2010 14:08 OreoBoi wrote:
First thing he says is
While we see South Korea as an important market, the profits gained is not that big in comparison to overall earnings worldwide.
Then he says:
Blizzard does not see e-sports as a source of profits. The reason why we are in negotiations with game TV channels for licensing is to get our IP rights acknowledged, not to get profits."
I don't understand talking about profits and then saying you don't want profits.
He's saying here that the Korean market isn't crucial to Blizzard, ESPORTS aren't important to Blizzard, but IP rights are very, very, important and they want to have a legitimate licensing contract.
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To be completely honest, if Blizzard wanted more money over this, they'd give us Zergling/Zealot/Marine plushies already! (srs)
Isn't it 1$ fee for them to get a broadcasting license from Blizzard? LOL
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On December 02 2010 14:18 Rainmaker5 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 14:08 OreoBoi wrote:
First thing he says is
While we see South Korea as an important market, the profits gained is not that big in comparison to overall earnings worldwide.
Then he says:
Blizzard does not see e-sports as a source of profits. The reason why we are in negotiations with game TV channels for licensing is to get our IP rights acknowledged, not to get profits."
I don't understand talking about profits and then saying you don't want profits. He's saying here that the Korean market isn't crucial to Blizzard, ESPORTS aren't important to Blizzard, but IP rights are very, very, important and they want to have a legitimate licensing contract.
But still, the best way to convince people that you don't care about profits is not to bring up the topic of profits in the first place.
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Thanks for the translation.
On December 02 2010 14:08 OreoBoi wrote:
First thing he says is
While we see South Korea as an important market, the profits gained is not that big in comparison to overall earnings worldwide.
Then he says:
Blizzard does not see e-sports as a source of profits. The reason why we are in negotiations with game TV channels for licensing is to get our IP rights acknowledged, not to get profits."
I don't understand talking about profits and then saying you don't want profits.
He is trying to say that Blizzard is not greedy, since their profits from sales in South Korea are not that big and acknowledging their IP rights is the least anyone could do for them.
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Props to Sams for clarifying the situation.
People might want to read that trans a few times before replying.
He brought up the topic of money and profits precisely because of "a controversy that has been doing on for a while" (quoted from OP).
By the way the broadcasting fees that Blizzard wants are definitely small, iirc. So we have to be careful not to mix everything.
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On December 02 2010 14:08 OreoBoi wrote:
First thing he says is
While we see South Korea as an important market, the profits gained is not that big in comparison to overall earnings worldwide.
Then he says:
Blizzard does not see e-sports as a source of profits. The reason why we are in negotiations with game TV channels for licensing is to get our IP rights acknowledged, not to get profits."
I don't understand talking about profits and then saying you don't want profits.
He first stresses the fact that blizz doesnt get much profit from korea, then continues his point by stating they dont intend to use esports to change that.
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"5% of overall profit of all of Blizzard products over the recent 3 years." That is the way I see this propaganda.
Well obviously a 10 year old game doesn't sell that well any more, and 5% overall profit is fucking amazing considering the market size compared to the rest of the world.
Anybody with simple logic can see through this bullshit.
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United States238 Posts
Updated with the link provided by Milkis. Thanks!
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On December 02 2010 14:26 zenMaster wrote:
"5% of overall profit of all of Blizzard products over the recent 3 years." That is the way I see this propaganda.
Well obviously a 10 year old game doesn't sell that well any more, and 5% overall profit is fucking amazing considering the market size compared to the rest of the world.
Anybody with simple logic can see through this bullshit.
Ah, yes, but anyone with simple reading comprehension will note that he mentions "all of blizzards products" not simply SC:BW.
Most of the money coming from Korea will probably not even be SC:BW but rather WoW which is rather big in Korea. SC:BW is making them almost no money. Hell, even Jaedong was asking for a cd-key a few years ago.
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On December 02 2010 14:26 zenMaster wrote:
"5% of overall profit of all of Blizzard products over the recent 3 years." That is the way I see this propaganda.
Well obviously a 10 year old game doesn't sell that well any more, and 5% overall profit is fucking amazing considering the market size compared to the rest of the world.
Anybody with simple logic can see through this bullshit.
In a lot of similar topics I've seen a few people calling Sams a bullshitter and what not, but I have yet to see someone bring facts or numbers in order to back up their accusations and to disprove what he says.
I call your post bullshit, because what you wrote looks like propaganda to me. See what I did? That kind of discussion is bringing us nowhere.
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This is going to be an unprecedented court case. Never before has an IP rights lawsuit looked so blurry. I believe the eSports scene surrounding BW will make things difficult for Blizzard to push for the 50% ownership that they want.
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5003 Posts
On December 02 2010 14:29 Selith wrote:
Updated with the link provided by Milkis. Thanks!
Thanks for translating :D
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Canada8029 Posts
Nothing particularly new here. He basically just restated that Blizzard wants to protect their IP rights, which we already knew. Guess we'll still have to wait for the results of the court case.
He stressed, "A little of broadcasting fee and acknowledging IP rights is the basis needed to provide high quality shows for the fans and e-sports players."
Huh? I can understand wanting to control how your own game is used, but how on earth does this relate to providing "high quality shows"? Haven't we been getting proleague and starleagues for years without this stuff? Or am I just interpreting this sentence wrongly?
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On December 02 2010 14:44 Spazer wrote:Nothing particularly new here. He basically just restated that Blizzard wants to protect their IP rights, which we already knew. Guess we'll still have to wait for the results of the court case. Show nested quote +He stressed, "A little of broadcasting fee and acknowledging IP rights is the basis needed to provide high quality shows for the fans and e-sports players." Huh? I can understand wanting to control how your own game is used, but how on earth does this relate to providing "high quality shows"? Haven't we been getting proleague and starleagues for years without this stuff? Or am I just interpreting this sentence wrongly?
I think this is related to a likely injunction. Afaik they are still undecided about what to do regarding the "illegal BW leagues" issue.
edit nevermind I did not read the interview.
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United States7481 Posts
"- You have said reverently in regards to rights of the players . But SC 2 leagues seem to have less of the rights for the players than SC 1."
i don't know how they can say this? can anyone provide an explanation?
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United States238 Posts
On December 02 2010 14:53 Antoine wrote:
"- You have said reverently in regards to rights of the players . But SC 2 leagues seem to have less of the rights for the players than SC 1."
i don't know how they can say this? can anyone provide an explanation?
Probably because how some people think progamers under Blizzard would have no rights at all compared to KeSPA.
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Canada8029 Posts
On December 02 2010 14:53 Antoine wrote:
"- You have said reverently in regards to rights of the players . But SC 2 leagues seem to have less of the rights for the players than SC 1."
i don't know how they can say this? can anyone provide an explanation?
Maybe they're talking about sponsorship or something? I dunno, it's really hard to say. I always thought SC2 players had more freedom just because of the lack of kespa...
Dunno why he mentioned the match fixing scandal in his response though. Like blizzard could've prevented that if they were involved. -_-
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i didnt even know NaDa got banned from the "SC:BW Hall of Fame",,,
Sad move
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Estonia4504 Posts
The way my mind works, freedom is only one right. While all SC2 replays belong partly to Blizzard, no matter what, all Progamer replays currently belong to the gamers themselves (if I understand the KeSPA system correctly), thus the DVD-s of Boxers best game moments and such. The only freedom they lose is strictly related to their work and not participating in other tournaments is only logical. After all, they are still competing.
EDIT:"We can also see what can happen when Blizzard does not participate as a partner in e-sports that makes use of Blizzard games. I've seen the match fixing scandal, and I've also seen how Lee Yun-Yeol (NaDa) had his record and his achievements completely nullified just because he chose to play a game he wanted to play. This is obviously not fair. So, that is why we are trying hard to protect our IP rights. We want to grow e-sports and progamers through right methods."
I find such accusations to be unrelated to Blizzards participation or accidental, and the statement both provocative and offensive.
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It's definitely obvious that any monetary gain from pursuing this line of action for Activision Blizzard will make up a small percentage of their overall revenue. Heck, EVERYTHING compared to WoW and Modern Warfare is peanuts when compared to those two behemoths.
The big question is ownership of content produced by a computer program. A significant amount of people here seem to think that all possible outputs of a program (say, the visual and audio output) belongs to the original creator of the program. So no matter what players do in their games, even if they do something creative or original, Activision Blizzard owns the video the game outputs, the replay, and the like. But I don't think this line of thinking works - because I could then create a program that sequentially outputs every possible image of some arbitrary width and height. Does that mean that all possible images become my property? Seems absurd to me.
On December 02 2010 15:02 Spazer wrote:
Dunno why he mentioned the match fixing scandal in his response though. Like blizzard could've prevented that if they were involved. -_-
You don't know why? It's obvious - it's another thing they keep mentioning over and over again to try to make Kespa look worse. Their executives have mentioned it often even in other interviews - with game "media" and such.
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On December 02 2010 15:02 Spazer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 14:53 Antoine wrote:
"- You have said reverently in regards to rights of the players . But SC 2 leagues seem to have less of the rights for the players than SC 1."
i don't know how they can say this? can anyone provide an explanation? Maybe they're talking about sponsorship or something? I dunno, it's really hard to say. I always thought SC2 players had more freedom just because of the lack of kespa... Dunno why he mentioned the match fixing scandal in his response though. Like blizzard could've prevented that if they were involved. -_-
I struggled to read the rest of the trans with an open mind when i got to the point where they inferred that match fixing would never have happened if they were in charge. =="
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Reading the comments on the Fomos board, it seems like Blizzard hiring 'Kim & Chang' lawyer group is THE deciding factor of this whole thing. They're saying that Blizzard already had an upper hand, and them hiring the best lawyer group in the country just basically ended this whole thing.
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United States4053 Posts
On December 02 2010 15:27 CanucksJC wrote:
Reading the comments on the Fomos board, it seems like Blizzard hiring 'Kim & Chang' lawyer group is THE deciding factor of this whole thing. They're saying that Blizzard already had an upper hand, and them hiring the best lawyer group in the country just basically ended this whole thing.
Legal advantages will likely pale in comparison to emotional advantages, which the broadcasting companies (but not KeSPA) command ;O
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"A little of broadcasting fee and acknowledging IP rights is the basis needed to provide high quality shows for the fans and e-sports players."
They're saying the broadcast fee is in place not as a money-making tool, but as a way to ensure that a potential broadcasting company has the capital and real desire to broadcast SC and run leagues in a high-quality fashion.
That is, if I set my broadcasting fee too low or don't have one, then any TV station, even the crummiest ones who have no real desire to do anything real with the game besides fill up free space, can get their noses in the game and produce poor-quality programming at will, thus, in Blizzard's eyes, diminishing the value of the IP in customers' eyes. However, if I set my broadcasting fee to ten trillion won, then obviously only a company that really, really wants to broadcast SC and has the necessary capital to produce a high-quality show is going to be able to do so. If I set it in the middle, then I can ensure quality without cutting everyone off. This seems to be Blizzard's approach to things.
Basically, I am satisfied by Sams remarks, as they make a great deal of sense and go a long way towards soothing my fears about the situation. However, a priority on both sides should be to provide fun and entertainment for the fans and keep the things they love going on, rather than just money or IP rights.
If it comes to war, I think I'd have to end up on Blizzard's side. I agree with what Sams said about Kespa's approach to pro-gamers and their unethical practices, which did most definitely contribute to things like the match-fixing scandals; and I like GOM's approach to players much, much more than Kespa's.
All I really want, though, is to see both sides come to an agreement and both scenes co-exist side by side. If that happens, then I will be happy. If it doesn't, then ultimately, whoever wins I lose.
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On December 02 2010 14:44 Spazer wrote:Show nested quote +He stressed, "A little of broadcasting fee and acknowledging IP rights is the basis needed to provide high quality shows for the fans and e-sports players." Huh? I can understand wanting to control how your own game is used, but how on earth does this relate to providing "high quality shows"? Haven't we been getting proleague and starleagues for years without this stuff? Or am I just interpreting this sentence wrongly?
The quote is from the article itself, hence it might not be immediately apparent the context of Sams answer. If you look at the translated interview below, here's the relevant part:
It is said Blizzard wants at least 700,000,000 won from the Korean market. Is that true?
The licensing fee is there to say that if they wish to use our content, they need to be capable of producing high quality content. When problems relating to intellectual rights is dealt with, the fee can be adjusted as needed.
Basically, the licensing fee is a barrier to entry. Whoever plans to broadcast the games needs to prove that they have the financial capability to produce such shows. It's not necessarily Kespa-specific (i.e. whether MBCGame is unable to produce good shows), but rather a general rule for Blizzard's terms when it comes to broadcasting their shows (in the event that another broadcaster wants to air Blizzard's games). The issue at hand though is the acknowledging of IP rights, which is the second of Blizzard's conditions. I don't think there's any doubt that MBCGame and OnGameNet can produce quality shows, but rather that they're not recognizing Blizzard's IP Rights.
To restate, Sam is saying that Blizzard wants its IP rights acknowledged and is suing on principle. That's the reason for the fee (which is less than what Kespa was charging for their broadcasting rights), why contest license fees (not to be confused w/ broadcasting fees) are just 1 won per year (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=6950901), or that profits from broadcasting fees will be donated to charity (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=6614875).
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I like how he mentions the match fixing scandal, as if doubting the integrity of KeSPA's tournaments. As if they could do better, not after that 22 page thread about GSL bracket rigging that was closed recently (not due to the statement itself, but rather the way the discussions went).
Find it hard to believe that Korea is only 5% of their profits? Is WoW not popular there? Then again that's probably why they had SC2 come free with a WoW subscription.
Gonna cite G20 as well, having Flash in the promotional video, speaks volumes about how passionate Korean culture is about BW. I sincerely hope that it will pull them through this difficult situation.
I'd really like to believe what Pauls Sams has to say, but the arrogance of Blizzard nowadays... I cannot bring myself to empathize with their cause.
In short, BW fighting!
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On December 02 2010 15:27 CanucksJC wrote:
Reading the comments on the Fomos board, it seems like Blizzard hiring 'Kim & Chang' lawyer group is THE deciding factor of this whole thing. They're saying that Blizzard already had an upper hand, and them hiring the best lawyer group in the country just basically ended this whole thing.
Having good lawyers don't mean that much as it would in other countries, due to the corrupt nature of korea. You have no idea how much power they (Kespa) have. Of all the wrong things they have done, they have not been scrutinized for any of those by the korean media (afaik).
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Every company has a right to protect its IP. No one should be an exception to this rule. Whether we like it or not, that's the law in every country that's a member of the G20 and WTO. Frankly, even if Blizz asked for $1 billion that's their right. Of course doing that would be dumb as shit and would make sure that its game would never be an important part of eSports, but it's still their right to do so.
Completely ignoring a company's IP rights and using a product you DON'T own to make PROFIT without permission is absolutely WRONG, arrogant, and disappointing. If it were me running Blizzard I would be just as pissed that someone else was making money off my product without even recognizing the fact that it's my product. The way I see it Kespa is being goddamn ridiculous here. The idea that they did so much for BW is irrelevant, you know why? Because they have been compensated for that with profits that were untaxed by Blizzard for almost a decade. Kespa, it's time to let go of your kung fu grip on BW (a product you don't own) and pay the token fee.
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On December 02 2010 15:54 ace246 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 15:27 CanucksJC wrote:
Reading the comments on the Fomos board, it seems like Blizzard hiring 'Kim & Chang' lawyer group is THE deciding factor of this whole thing. They're saying that Blizzard already had an upper hand, and them hiring the best lawyer group in the country just basically ended this whole thing. Having good lawyers don't mean that much as it would in other countries, due to the corrupt nature of korea. You have no idea how much power they (Kespa) have. Of all the wrong things they have done, they have not been scrutinized for any of those by the korean media (afaik).
I highly doubt KeSPA still has the 'power' they once had back in the day, even if they did at all. Contrary to what you think, Korean netizens are of the opinion that this is all but over, no other lawyer group can challenge Kim & Chang at this very moment. Apparently they are something special, and if every netizens knows about them, then it must be true to some extent.
[edit] To put it into SC terms, it's like sending Flash out in the ace match against estro, and yes i'm very aware that estro disbanded. They're not fucking around.
I'm just stating what I've been reading, I haven't been in Korea for 2 years so I don't know the full story.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49984 Posts
to be honest the only issue I see in this whole schabang(spelling?) is that the broadcasting companies don't make a lot of money and have only been doing this for the fans and barely managing to 'break even'(incorrect use of term?).
if Blizzard/Gretech decided to invest in these companies instead of purely sucking them dry they probably would have reached a settlement.
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This sounds too much like useless rhetoric from Paul Sams at this point. Mentioning the match fixing scandal, but would Blizzard have avoided the same thing if they were in control of the BW scene instead of Kespa? The match fixing scandal was a result of a few individuals' disregard for the honor and integrity of the BW proscene, not as a result of Kespa's problems.
I only want MBC and OGN to continue BW without any more interference from Kespa AND Blizzard. Blizzard is only complicating things much further, when BW had been going smoothly for 10 years already.
With WoW and CoD in their pockets, of course, the South Korean proscene, both BW and SC2, would make only 5% of their global profits. This strong-arm tactic by Blizzard is only going to invoke emotional responses from the Korean public regardless of whether they hire the "strongest lawyer group in Korea" or not.
In short, it is only going to get worse, instead of better. I am pretty disgusted by the entire thing already, but what can you expect from Blizzard? =\
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Kim & Chang? Is that like Flash & Jaedong of law firms?
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On December 02 2010 16:09 BLinD-RawR wrote:
to be honest the only issue I see in this whole schabang(spelling?) is that the broadcasting companies don't make a lot of money and have only been doing this for the fans and barely managing to 'break even'(incorrect use of term?).
That assumes that broadcasting companies are actually breaking even (i.e. prove it) and in the event that they actually are, Blizzard is open to negotiating the sum. As emphasized by Sams in the interview, the amount can be negotiated, but acknowledging of IP rights is their main problem. Nor has this stopped the broadcasting companies paying much higher fees in the past.
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So they come forth now due to IP rights...
Why not back in 2001 while they had the chance?
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://img.dailygame.co.kr/news/201012/attachments/20101201_de2de48a8ff277c3dabc6d03beef0c28.jpg) Hanbitsoft Starleague Finals back in 2001
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United States7481 Posts
On December 02 2010 16:18 supernovamaniac wrote:So they come forth now due to IP rights... Why not back in 2001 while they had the chance? + Show Spoiler +Hanbitsoft Starleague Finals back in 2001
kespa wasn't charging to broadcast until 2007, when blizzard did come forward.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49984 Posts
On December 02 2010 16:18 supernovamaniac wrote:So they come forth now due to IP rights... Why not back in 2001 while they had the chance? + Show Spoiler +Hanbitsoft Starleague Finals back in 2001
in your situation I believe its because Hanbitsoft was their Korean publisher.
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On December 02 2010 16:22 Antoine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 16:18 supernovamaniac wrote:So they come forth now due to IP rights... Why not back in 2001 while they had the chance? + Show Spoiler +Hanbitsoft Starleague Finals back in 2001 kespa wasn't charging to broadcast until 2007, when blizzard did come forward.
And I wonder why they did that? Would you like me to explain?
Kespa started charging MBC and OGN from 2007 due to the explosive growth of the BW proscene, so that they could re-invest back into the scene to help it develop further, thus Kespa's non-profit status. MBC and OGN were barely breaking even, but they broadcasted BW out of love for the fans.
That is the simple gist of it. Kespa has been abusing its power sometimes since then, and that is why I only want MBC and OGN to come out out of this whole mess unhurt. Kespa and Blizzard can fight together for as long as they want, as long as they leave BW alone. =\
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On December 02 2010 16:27 cocoa_sg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 16:22 Antoine wrote:On December 02 2010 16:18 supernovamaniac wrote:So they come forth now due to IP rights... Why not back in 2001 while they had the chance? + Show Spoiler +Hanbitsoft Starleague Finals back in 2001 kespa wasn't charging to broadcast until 2007, when blizzard did come forward. And I wonder why they did that? Would you like me to explain? Kespa started charging MBC and OGN from 2007 due to the explosive growth of the BW proscene, so that they could re-invest back into the scene to help it develop further, thus Kespa's non-profit status. MBC and OGN were barely breaking even, but they broadcasted BW out of love for the fans. That is the simple gist of it. Kespa has been abusing its power sometimes since then, and that is why I only want MBC and OGN to come out out of this whole mess unhurt. Kespa and Blizzard can fight together for as long as they want, as long as they leave BW alone. =\
It does NOT matter why they charged. It doesn't matter at all. The fact is, they charged for the use of a product they DO NOT own. That's ridiculous no matter what the reason is. You have no right to charge for something you don't own. I don't care if you did it to help orphan dolphin babies, it's still not your right. P.S. I don't buy for one second that KeSPA charged simply for altruistic reasons.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On December 02 2010 15:41 charlesatan wrote:
Basically, the licensing fee is a barrier to entry. Whoever plans to broadcast the games needs to prove that they have the financial capability to produce such shows. It's not necessarily Kespa-specific (i.e. whether MBCGame is unable to produce good shows), but rather a general rule for Blizzard's terms when it comes to broadcasting their shows (in the event that another broadcaster wants to air Blizzard's games). The issue at hand though is the acknowledging of IP rights, which is the second of Blizzard's conditions. I don't think there's any doubt that MBCGame and OnGameNet can produce quality shows, but rather that they're not recognizing Blizzard's IP Rights.
To restate, Sam is saying that Blizzard wants its IP rights acknowledged and is suing on principle. That's the reason for the fee (which is less than what Kespa was charging for their broadcasting rights), why contest license fees (not to be confused w/ broadcasting fees) are just 1 won per year (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=6950901), or that profits from broadcasting fees will be donated to charity (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=6614875).
this post is mandatory reading if you are in this thread
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- You have said reverently in regards to rights of the players . But SC 2 leagues seem to have less of the rights for the players than SC 1.
Haha Show me Sc1 Programmer Contract. Then we can discuss about how much rights the player actually has.
TBH theres so much bs with this IP/Kespa/Broadcasting. I hope a court will have a final ruling.
to be honest the only issue I see in this whole schabang(spelling?) is that the broadcasting companies don't make a lot of money and have only been doing this for the fans and barely managing to 'break even'(incorrect use of term?).
if Blizzard/Gretech decided to invest in these companies instead of purely sucking them dry they probably would have reached a settlement.
Thats what they have been saying I didnt saw any actual numbers. If they dont make enough money maybe they need bigger sponsors / or spent their money more efficient.
Theres no way that they just break even and do this for the love of e-sports.
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I guess this helps clarify some things, but mostly I feel that this is just more of the same. Didn't expect to see anything different here.
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i think from legal point of view , it seems that Blizzard has the absolute upperhand. The only hope for Kespa/OGN/MBC is some local bias or intense lobbying between government bodies.
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What I think Paul Sams is trying to say:
- Blizzard makes enough money from WoW and doesn't care much about profits, but is pissed at KeSPA for charging broadcasting fees when they didn't make the game.
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United States238 Posts
On December 02 2010 16:16 butter wrote:
Kim & Chang? Is that like Flash & Jaedong of law firms?
I looked around a bit. Turns out Kim & Chang is indeed the Flash & Jaedong of law firms in South Korea. Basically, elites of the elite lawyers are there. Supposedly, even some of the bigger corporations find it rather expensive to hire them.
Edit: I found some information on this. Is on Fomos. Holy crap, they really are Flash & Jaedong of the law firms.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blizzard Entertainment hired Korean law firm, Kim & Jang (Chang is also a way to say 장) to represent them in the IP rights lawsuit.
Paul Sams said during the press conference that, "In regards to the lawsuit, we are cooperating with Korea's best law firm, "Kim & Jang".
Law firm Kim & Jang was founded in 1973, with history spanning for over 30 years. Based on 2010's data, this massive law firm has over 450 lawyers belonging to this firm, and has earned over 350,000,000,000 won in yearly profits. Especially, the law firm is known for being the leader in IP rights area.
The law firm has been selected as the best law firm in South Korea by the world-renowned Chambers and Partners' yearly publication, Chambers Asia.
In addition, the law firm has been selected as the best law firm in IP rights area by the professional magazine "Managing Intellectual Property" (managed under Euromoney).
According to MIP, in June 2010, Kim & Jang has been no.1 in areas dealing with applying for patents, patent lawsuit, trademark registration, trademark lawsuit, and intellectual property. Also, since 2006, Kim & Jang has been selected the best law firm for IP rights area for 4 years straight.
It is expected there will be a fierce courtroom drama with Blizzard hiring Kim & Jang as their law firm, the firm known for being the very best in IP rights area of the law.
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On December 02 2010 17:03 dtz wrote:
i think from legal point of view , it seems that Blizzard has the absolute upperhand. The only hope for Kespa/OGN/MBC is some local bias or intense lobbying between government bodies.
Korea can rule it however they want... but the consequence can be dire. it's hard to tell... whats better for the country. Korea already got tons of game developing companies... so they can pretty much ignore IP rights and use their own games I guess. (Although I would assume even those companies will probably seek other places...) SO YEAH... blizzard's gotta win for the sake of games. I mean GAMES not just starcraft 1. in korea.
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[B]but what can you expect from Blizzard? =\
making the game you revere so much?
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This just firmly kept myself in the blizzard gom camp. I've had a healthy distrust for Kespa ever since they cancelled the GOM Classic by not allowing players. If anyone doesn't want SC1 to continue it's them considering the huge amount Kespa themselves are wanting for broadcast fees.
People who are saying Blizzard are trying to suck the broadcasters dry should know the only reason their profits aren't great is because of the huge fees they have to pay kespa. And the players really aren't that much better off with huge practice regimes and having to pay some if not all of their prize money back to their teams.
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5003 Posts
On December 02 2010 15:41 charlesatan wrote:
Basically, the licensing fee is a barrier to entry. Whoever plans to broadcast the games needs to prove that they have the financial capability to produce such shows. It's not necessarily Kespa-specific (i.e. whether MBCGame is unable to produce good shows), but rather a general rule for Blizzard's terms when it comes to broadcasting their shows (in the event that another broadcaster wants to air Blizzard's games). The issue at hand though is the acknowledging of IP rights, which is the second of Blizzard's conditions. I don't think there's any doubt that MBCGame and OnGameNet can produce quality shows, but rather that they're not recognizing Blizzard's IP Rights.
To restate, Sam is saying that Blizzard wants its IP rights acknowledged and is suing on principle. That's the reason for the fee (which is less than what Kespa was charging for their broadcasting rights), why contest license fees (not to be confused w/ broadcasting fees) are just 1 won per year (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=6950901), or that profits from broadcasting fees will be donated to charity (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=6614875).
The issue is that MBC/OGN/KeSPA has a very different idea of "Recognizing IP rights" than Blizzard does. Who is right? Who knows.
EDIT: Also, I don't buy the "barrier to entry" bullshit. If so, they would need to do it once, not for every contract. Doing it for every contract does not go along with "Barriers to entry", it's just a transaction cost at that point -_-
On December 02 2010 17:26 ComusLoM wrote:
This just firmly kept myself in the blizzard gom camp. I've had a healthy distrust for Kespa ever since they cancelled the GOM Classic by not allowing players. If anyone doesn't want SC1 to continue it's them considering the huge amount Kespa themselves are wanting for broadcast fees.
People who are saying Blizzard are trying to suck the broadcasters dry should know the only reason their profits aren't great is because of the huge fees they have to pay kespa. And the players really aren't that much better off with huge practice regimes and having to pay some if not all of their prize money back to their teams.
iirc MBCGame had like a profit of like 2 million in 2008. I wouldn't be surprised if the "not making a profit" refers only to MSL, which wouldn't be surprising since it's literally just advertisement for MBC Game and the sponsors. But if you believe KeSPA, KeSPA just puts the money back in the stations (in fact they argue that they invested more back in). If KeSPA is charging a huge amount, what does that make the "Barriers of entry" fee which is a bit more than what kespa charges now?
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Thank you translator team, Selith and Milkis.
About Kim & Chang: Oh my. The netizens were right, IP rights abuse is over.
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On December 02 2010 17:26 ComusLoM wrote:
This just firmly kept myself in the blizzard gom camp. I've had a healthy distrust for Kespa ever since they cancelled the GOM Classic by not allowing players. If anyone doesn't want SC1 to continue it's them considering the huge amount Kespa themselves are wanting for broadcast fees.
People who are saying Blizzard are trying to suck the broadcasters dry should know the only reason their profits aren't great is because of the huge fees they have to pay kespa. And the players really aren't that much better off with huge practice regimes and having to pay some if not all of their prize money back to their teams.
You seem to attribute a lot of the actions or protocol of individual teams as KeSPA's own.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49984 Posts
On December 02 2010 17:11 Selith wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 16:16 butter wrote:
Kim & Chang? Is that like Flash & Jaedong of law firms? I looked around a bit. Turns out Kim & Chang is indeed the Flash & Jaedong of law firms in South Korea. Basically, elites of the elite lawyers are there. Supposedly, even some of the bigger corporations find it rather expensive to hire them. Edit: I found some information on this. Is on Fomos. Holy crap, they really are Flash & Jaedong of the law firms. + Show Spoiler +--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blizzard Entertainment hired Korean law firm, Kim & Jang (Chang is also a way to say 장) to represent them in the IP rights lawsuit.
Paul Sams said during the press conference that, "In regards to the lawsuit, we are cooperating with Korea's best law firm, "Kim & Jang".
Law firm Kim & Jang was founded in 1973, with history spanning for over 30 years. Based on 2010's data, this massive law firm has over 450 lawyers belonging to this firm, and has earned over 350,000,000,000 won in yearly profits. Especially, the law firm is known for being the leader in IP rights area.
The law firm has been selected as the best law firm in South Korea by the world-renowned Chambers and Partners' yearly publication, Chambers Asia.
In addition, the law firm has been selected as the best law firm in IP rights area by the professional magazine "Managing Intellectual Property" (managed under Euromoney).
According to MIP, in June 2010, Kim & Jang has been no.1 in areas dealing with applying for patents, patent lawsuit, trademark registration, trademark lawsuit, and intellectual property. Also, since 2006, Kim & Jang has been selected the best law firm for IP rights area for 4 years straight.
It is expected there will be a fierce courtroom drama with Blizzard hiring Kim & Jang as their law firm, the firm known for being the very best in IP rights area of the law.
woah.....so this is how scary a fusion of flash and jaedong can be.
the irony is that should blizzard win we might not be seeing much of flash or jaedong.
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Estonia4504 Posts
On December 02 2010 18:00 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 17:11 Selith wrote:On December 02 2010 16:16 butter wrote:
Kim & Chang? Is that like Flash & Jaedong of law firms? I looked around a bit. Turns out Kim & Chang is indeed the Flash & Jaedong of law firms in South Korea. Basically, elites of the elite lawyers are there. Supposedly, even some of the bigger corporations find it rather expensive to hire them. Edit: I found some information on this. Is on Fomos. Holy crap, they really are Flash & Jaedong of the law firms. + Show Spoiler +--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blizzard Entertainment hired Korean law firm, Kim & Jang (Chang is also a way to say 장) to represent them in the IP rights lawsuit.
Paul Sams said during the press conference that, "In regards to the lawsuit, we are cooperating with Korea's best law firm, "Kim & Jang".
Law firm Kim & Jang was founded in 1973, with history spanning for over 30 years. Based on 2010's data, this massive law firm has over 450 lawyers belonging to this firm, and has earned over 350,000,000,000 won in yearly profits. Especially, the law firm is known for being the leader in IP rights area.
The law firm has been selected as the best law firm in South Korea by the world-renowned Chambers and Partners' yearly publication, Chambers Asia.
In addition, the law firm has been selected as the best law firm in IP rights area by the professional magazine "Managing Intellectual Property" (managed under Euromoney).
According to MIP, in June 2010, Kim & Jang has been no.1 in areas dealing with applying for patents, patent lawsuit, trademark registration, trademark lawsuit, and intellectual property. Also, since 2006, Kim & Jang has been selected the best law firm for IP rights area for 4 years straight.
It is expected there will be a fierce courtroom drama with Blizzard hiring Kim & Jang as their law firm, the firm known for being the very best in IP rights area of the law. woah.....so this is how scary a fusion of flash and jaedong can be. the irony is that should blizzard win we might not be seeing much of flash or jaedong.
Not in BW anyway. 
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In my ideal world, an esport governing body must have EQUAL numbers of of representatives from the following four groups:
- Group 1: Players and coaches
- Group 2: Broadcasters and media
- Group 3: Game makers
- Group 4: Sponsors
Each of these 4 groups bring something important and irreplaceable to the table. Each of these 4 groups has a distinct set of interests, while all of them share a common interest in esports. When there is a conflict, each group should have 25% of the power to decide on the matter.
In my opinion, the KeSPA model is flawed because it only consists of group 4 (sponsors) and group 2 (broadcasters) with group 4 having the most say. Group 4 sees group 1 (players and coaches) more like their assets to control group 2. While group 3 (game makers) is totally left out of the equation. In this flawed model, group 1's rights and interests will be violated at times, an IP rights with group 3 is inevitable.
In my wildest dreams I could only wish a new esport governing body will be formed by all the 4 groups together, in which SCBW and Starcraft 2 will co-exist together. Doesn't seem to be realistic any time soon though.
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On December 02 2010 15:54 IntoTheEmo wrote:
Find it hard to believe that Korea is only 5% of their profits? Is WoW not popular there? Then again that's probably why they had SC2 come free with a WoW subscription.
Here is you reason for only 5%. The man speaks truth ;P
SC2 boosted Blizzard income in every region except the Korea.
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I don't know what Kespa is counting on, but Blizzard is going to win on both the "legal" frontier and the "public support" frontier at the end of all this. I guess the transition was inevitable, but it could have been so much easier...
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A for profit company not wanting profits.
A non-profit organization not wanting profits.
Hmm I'm skeptical
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On December 02 2010 14:22 Arikuna wrote:Thanks for the translation. Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 14:08 OreoBoi wrote:
First thing he says is
While we see South Korea as an important market, the profits gained is not that big in comparison to overall earnings worldwide.
Then he says:
Blizzard does not see e-sports as a source of profits. The reason why we are in negotiations with game TV channels for licensing is to get our IP rights acknowledged, not to get profits."
I don't understand talking about profits and then saying you don't want profits. He is trying to say that Blizzard is not greedy, since their profits from sales in South Korea are not that big and acknowledging their IP rights is the least anyone could do for them.
I would imagine there would be a higher profits from e-sports/broadcasting/public support/conglomerate teams participating in their leagues rather than sales alone especially in Korea.
EDIT: spelling
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Russian Federation4405 Posts
5%? LOL! Yes, I mean, this is an exact number NOW. But where would they have been without the success of starcraft, that induced the sales of other games (Warcraft 3, and then WoW) WORLDWIDE. T_T Another rhetoric and tricky statement only to mislead. Another lie.
Let's read further...
Hourra, they didn't at least request stopping the broadcasting!
I think, the best decision by NOW would be to insert commercials of Blizz' products and blizz's logo into the broadcastings and let them go. Fucking yes, when they would such of confirm that these leagues are out of threat, then everyone would fucking turn their head back to them... maybe even play their other games (i'd maybe get a Stacraft 2 and diablo 3).
But let me say i don't believe anything of these words, until the leagues are ACTUALLY out of danger.
On December 02 2010 18:04 mrdx wrote:
In my ideal world, an esport governing body must have EQUAL numbers of of representatives from the following four groups:
- Group 1: Players and coaches
- Group 2: Broadcasters and media
- Group 3: Game makers
- Group 4: Sponsors
Yep, I too think soo. But where they've been before 2010? Why did not they participate in this before. And make something to sustain e-sports themselves. But if now they do make, still would be good.
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Russian Federation4405 Posts
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Russian Federation4405 Posts
edited into 1 post instead of 3
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On December 02 2010 17:28 Milkis wrote:
The issue is that MBC/OGN/KeSPA has a very different idea of "Recognizing IP rights" than Blizzard does. Who is right? Who knows.
When it comes to IP Rights, the advantage is with Blizzard:
1) By default (or as known in the rest of the rest of the world), Starcraft is Blizzard's property. Now it is possible to claim in court that certain aspects of the game isn't Blizzard's (i.e. it's public) but you'd have to prove that claim. (Of course there are also other deciding factors, such as rules of the country you're in [good luck enforcing IP rights in Taiwan for example] but in general, it's easier to prove Blizzard's claim than KeSPA's. That's not to say Blizzard's side is sure to win in such a lawsuit, but they have the advantage.)
2) In general, it's also bad form to break terms [b]during negotiations. Surprisingly, based on the interview, Blizzard didn't file an injunction (which would halt the airing of BroodWar until everything can be settled in court) and just filed a lawsuit.
EDIT: Also, I don't buy the "barrier to entry" bullshit. If so, they would need to do it once, not for every contract. Doing it for every contract does not go along with "Barriers to entry", it's just a transaction cost at that point -_-
Sorry but that's how the real world works. Licenses (and franchises) are usually for a set period of time (usually one year but terms can be negotiated). The company needs to prove that they're still fit and able to produce the shows. OGN ten years from now for example might not be as capable as OGN last year.
A "regular" license fee is reasonable.
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I don't get this still, Blizzard sues KeSPA/OGN/MBC.... BW scene gets affected....then the companies go into the red broadcasting / hosting BW tournament due to the increased costs (so i heard).... BW gets shut down -> lose:lose situation.
The only people I see benefiting from this are the lawyers involved, free bank loot anyone?
They should just wake up and use the money they are giving to the lawyers to help improve the scene instead of squabbling over something like IP rights.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49984 Posts
On December 02 2010 18:46 _Quasar_ wrote:
But let me say i don't believe anything of these words, until the leagues are ACTUALLY out of danger.
you probably will have to wait a while then.Also please edit your main post instead of triple posting.
On December 02 2010 18:48 IrT4nkz wrote:
I don't get this still, Blizzard sues KeSPA/OGN/MBC.... BW scene gets affected....then the companies go into the red broadcasting / hosting BW tournament due to the increased costs (so i heard).... BW gets shut down -> lose:lose situation.
The only people I see benefiting from this are the lawyers involved, free bank loot anyone?
They should just wake up and use the money they are giving to the lawyers to help improve the scene instead of squabbling over something like IP rights.
from what I hear Blizzard is asking for less from the broadcasters than from KeSPA.Should Blizzard win and KeSPA disbands,they would just have to pay blizzard.But the big problem is that the proleague model belongs to KeSPA.
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On December 02 2010 18:45 _Quasar_ wrote:
I think, the best decision by NOW would be to insert commercials of Blizz' products and blizz's logo into the broadcastings and let them go. Fucking yes, when they would such of confirm that these leagues are out of threat, then everyone would fucking turn their head back to them... maybe even play their other games (i'd maybe get a Stacraft 2 and diablo 3).
Wouldn't work. I don't think you understand what's at stake here.
Blizzard wants the companies/organizations to acknowledge (publicly and in writing) that Starcraft is their Intellectual Property. Showing Blizzard products and logos wouldn't explicitly do that. It might suggest that implicitly, but that doesn't help Blizzard from a legal (and philosophical) standpoint.
What's at risk here? If Blizzard doesn't stand up to its IP rights, it stands to lose them as this will set a precedent. (For example, while Trademarks aren't IP Rights, Xerox is constantly at risk of losing its trademark [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genericized_trademark] [i.e. Xerox = photocopiers] if it doen't uphold them). Blizzard (and other similar companies) stands to lose a lot of money if a precedent is established as other countries/companies/organizations might use Blizzard's other products for their own profit without permission from Blizzard. (Blizzard's case is weaker with each defeat in court.)
The Google Settlement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Book_Search_Settlement_Agreement) is perceived as wrong by authors and the publishing company because of its violation of copyright law (again, copyright law is not IP but they're similar). Google follows a "I'll use this now for my own benefit and apologize later." KeSPA/OGN/MBC are currently incurring a similar infraction although it's worse (Google plans to compensate authors eventually, KeSPA/OGN/MBC have no intention of doing so).
It's interesting if KeSPA manages to prove that broadcasting Starcraft is public property but until then, it's bad for Blizzard as a company/corporation to let this slide, not even for good PR.
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Russian Federation4405 Posts
Mod edit: Keep posts like this out of this topic. Either discuss things calmly and rationally, or get warned from now on.
T_T
What's with the "model belongs" -___-
It's just a standard round tournament model. Do you say that lets say Korean soccer leagues' model belongs to someone? T___T NO. Seriously, fuck them all. With their #$%$%% IP rights.
I still think Blizzard's wrong. What the hell? Dudes, you're talking that you seek NO PROFIT IN E-SPORTS, then you DEMAND MONEY from e-sport companies. When you're not spending money on sustaining e-sports, you don't lose anything so you want to GET PROFIT. Motherficking rhetorics. They still want to fool anyone and be white and furry.
I'm 1000000000% sure that if they win, they'll do NOTHING to starcraft and say Oh we won??? Oops. SC leagues are closed, go to hell everyone.
If Blizzard TRULY WANTS Starcraft and its sequel to co-exist, they must make it no matter what, especially in the case they're trying to destroy the organisation that was previously doing this. -____- Otherwise they're just a piece of s**t, who is full of lie.
And this trying to draw fire from themselves and make anyone blame KeSPA. I would have to personally say that I trust KeSPA more than Activision. The reason is the amount of lie we already heard from Activision/Blizzard. Yes it will be good to make a compromise, but I'm to 0% sure that Blizzard is actually wanting this.
And still 5% is ONLY NUMBER OF NOW. They badasses didn't mention what percentage of profit was there by all time. And they did not of course mention how the success of Starcraft affected success of all their other games - and so, how Starcraft in Korea affected their (good) history. They didn't tell anything of this, although this is all truth. They've just underlined their liked points and have hidden the worst for them.
Please go to hell Blizzard. I don't trust any of your words unless you let Starcraft live. -____-
If you want "acknowledgement of your ip rights", then KeSPA / OGN / MBC please acknowledge it and do nothing more. Let's see how they truly would react at something they reportedly "only wanted". -____-
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Whether korea makes up 5% of their global sales or not, the korean pros are responsible for much more across the world.
The top koreans are looked up to by many many aspiring gamers, they show blizz games played at a very high level, they show a potential in blizz games that blizz themselves could not come close to showing.
Also anyone that thinks this is just about the IP rights themselves is a bit naive imo.
The IP rights are important to blizz because they are potential revenue... when they weren't potential revenue blizz didn't care what you did with their games.
Blizz wants control of their games, that's fine, but then we shouldn't use their games as e-sports, because their priority is not to grow e-sports, it's to use e-sports in ways that are lucrative for them.
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- You have said reverently in regards to rights of the players . But SC 2 leagues seem to have less of the rights for the players than SC 1.
Hahahahaha. How can you have less rights than a BW progamer? I think you'd have to descend to actual slavery to have less rights than a typical BW progamer (or so the whisperings in the community have led me to believe).
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United States238 Posts
On December 02 2010 19:12 _Quasar_ wrote:
Please go to hell Blizzard. I don't trust any of your words unless you let Starcraft live. -____-
If you want "acknowledgement of your ip rights", then KeSPA / OGN / MBC please acknowledge it and do nothing more. Let's see how they truly would react at something they reportedly "only wanted". -____-
The problem is, KeSPA / OGN / MBC doesn't want to ever acknowledge that StarCraft's IP right belongs to Blizzard. In fact, KeSPA is adamant that StarCraft is a complete public property.
I think other game companies that are interested in being part of Korean e-sports scene is watching this very carefully. No game developers in their sane mind, want their games becoming public property just because it is part of e-sports scene.
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Russian Federation4405 Posts
On December 02 2010 19:02 charlesatan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 18:45 _Quasar_ wrote:
I think, the best decision by NOW would be to insert commercials of Blizz' products and blizz's logo into the broadcastings and let them go. Fucking yes, when they would such of confirm that these leagues are out of threat, then everyone would fucking turn their head back to them... maybe even play their other games (i'd maybe get a Stacraft 2 and diablo 3). Wouldn't work. I don't think you understand what's at stake here. Blizzard wants the companies/organizations to acknowledge (publicly and in writing) that Starcraft is their Intellectual Property. Showing Blizzard products and logos wouldn't explicitly do that. It might suggest that implicitly, but that doesn't help Blizzard from a legal (and philosophical) standpoint. What's at risk here? If Blizzard doesn't stand up to its IP rights, it stands to lose them as this will set a precedent. (For example, while Trademarks aren't IP Rights, Xerox is constantly at risk of losing its trademark [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genericized_trademark] [i.e. Xerox = photocopiers] if it doen't uphold them). Blizzard (and other similar companies) stands to lose a lot of money if a precedent is established as other countries/companies/organizations might use Blizzard's other products for their own profit without permission from Blizzard. (Blizzard's case is weaker with each defeat in court.) The Google Settlement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Book_Search_Settlement_Agreement) is perceived as wrong by authors and the publishing company because of its violation of copyright law (again, copyright law is not IP but they're similar). Google follows a "I'll use this now for my own benefit and apologize later." KeSPA/OGN/MBC are currently incurring a similar infraction although it's worse (Google plans to compensate authors eventually, KeSPA/OGN/MBC have no intention of doing so). It's interesting if KeSPA manages to prove that broadcasting Starcraft is public property but until then, it's bad for Blizzard as a company/corporation to let this slide, not even for good PR.
A precedent? Name any other community that has done that many to sustain one Blizzard game's popularity as Korea to starcraft. I think you don't find. So if some side company wants to get a piece of pie of SC2 for example, then Blizz would go and sue them. =__= But they don't show respect to gaming community of Korea.
And why are they asking money from them, if they only want acknowledgement? And why last Blizzard/Gretech's offer involved such a conditions that took very much of profit to Blizz/Grtech?
Well, now I'm waiting for gaming community (KESPA or whoever) to make their move.
For me, the optimal variant would be this:
- "Yes we acknowledge your rights - you are the owner of this game and have the rights on it."
- "We want to continue broadcasting SC as we care about e-sports"
- "We've done something to sustain it, so don't you think that some product of it belongs to us, too, it is not that all that's created involving your property automatically belongs to you." It's also a philosophic point i think =\
- "We acknowledge that if not your game, that all wouldn't be. So... regarding that, we ask you for some lighter conditions of contract than it would be to an "ordinary" company, who didn't affect your company's success history as much as we did"
P.S.: And last. Koreans MUST cooperate. With it it would be much, much easier to protect their good name, and their right point (and there are some right points) in this situation. Paul Sams said much, but there was some lie. They have to cooperate, to protect themselves and earn the respect that they deserve. Then probably Activision (since there's Bobby Kotick i already have 0% faith in it) Blizzard (!) would show its good side too. Not only the bad and full of lie they've been showing.
- "
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Russian Federation4405 Posts
On December 02 2010 19:16 Selith wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 19:12 _Quasar_ wrote:
Please go to hell Blizzard. I don't trust any of your words unless you let Starcraft live. -____-
If you want "acknowledgement of your ip rights", then KeSPA / OGN / MBC please acknowledge it and do nothing more. Let's see how they truly would react at something they reportedly "only wanted". -____- The problem is, KeSPA / OGN / MBC doesn't want to ever acknowledge that StarCraft's IP right belongs to Blizzard. In fact, KeSPA is adamant that StarCraft is a complete public property. I think other game companies that are interested in being part of Korean e-sports scene is watching this very carefully. No game developers in their sane mind, want their games becoming public property just because it is part of e-sports scene.
Yes, that's a problem. They should immediately and in most straight way acknowledge it in some official statement to everyone.
But why so much lie?! Why, dear Paul Sams??? If you tell that it's no source of profits - then why you ask for money??? And moreover, he didn't mention the actual participating of Korean gaming community in blizzard's success history, which was BIGGER than 5%. If no lie and no silencing the important facts, that would ALL look much much better, and now, Blizzard looks not better than before. -____-
User was warned for this post
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Thanks for translating!
I was wondering why they hadn't filed injunctions against the current broadcasting and its nice to know that they're still unsure of it, because it will only harm fans. It's going to make this case take a lot longer than it should had Blizzard used that leverage, but they seem quite confident (and honestly so do I) with their chosen law firm.
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Talk about making a hen out of a feather. SC progaming is getting smaller and smaller and these guys just want to snuff it out completely. Petty and unworthy of Blizzard. Never touching a product of theirs again
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Russian Federation4405 Posts
On December 02 2010 20:05 Emon_ wrote:
Talk about making a hen out of a feather. SC progaming is getting smaller and smaller and these guys just want to snuff it out completely. Petty and unworthy of Blizzard. Never touching a product of theirs again
You should blame ACTIVISION Blizzard, I think. Activision is pretty disgusting company, and still manage to get their name not mentioned in this case. But before Activision came to own it, Blizzard wasn't such a piece of sh**.
so please let's speak correctly, it's Activision Blizzard, and I'm even sure that more Activision than Blizzard that is responsible for all the bad things we see.
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Thanks for the translation!
I'm getting really tired of this situation tough. I don't watch BW anymore and I would rather have ended this chapter without the Blizzard cloud hovering over it. So I personally will take all the great years with BW and it's great progaming history and just act like this thing here never existed.
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On December 02 2010 20:31 _Quasar_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 20:05 Emon_ wrote:
Talk about making a hen out of a feather. SC progaming is getting smaller and smaller and these guys just want to snuff it out completely. Petty and unworthy of Blizzard. Never touching a product of theirs again You should blame ACTIVISION Blizzard, I think. Activision is pretty disgusting company, and still manage to get their name not mentioned in this case. But before Activision came to own it, Blizzard wasn't such a piece of sh**. so please let's speak correctly, it's Activision Blizzard, and I'm even sure that more Activision than Blizzard that is responsible for all the bad things we see.
Nobody forced a merger between Actvision and Blizzard. The Blizz people got some money in return for their soul. Hope they got a lot because their former good reputation is being dragged through the mud. So both Actvision and Blizzard is to blame, but mostly Blizzard for selling out.
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Russian Federation4405 Posts
I know that Blizzard too. But now Activision is not mentioned often. Although they ARE to blame.
I'd suggest to boycott all Activision production, not only Blizzard's.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49984 Posts
Please don't turn this into a massive hate thread against Blizzard
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On December 02 2010 19:02 charlesatan wrote:
The Google Settlement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Book_Search_Settlement_Agreement) is perceived as wrong by authors and the publishing company because of its violation of copyright law (again, copyright law is not IP but they're similar). Google follows a "I'll use this now for my own benefit and apologize later." KeSPA/OGN/MBC are currently incurring a similar infraction although it's worse (Google plans to compensate authors eventually, KeSPA/OGN/MBC have no intention of doing so).
In google case - their plan influences the sales of the books of the authors in the negative ways.On the other hand KeSPA/OGN/MBC have boosted Blizzard's SC:BW sales in korea. So its not like they didn't compensate.
OGN/MBC should just ask for the percentage of the sales of SC:BW in Korea for the past few years (a nice kick in the nuts of ActiBlizz) since Blizzard took increased earnings on SC:BW sales due to OGN/MBC productions - StarLeague, ProLeague.
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Paul Sams stated, "Blizzard does not see e-sports as a source of profits. The reason why we are in negotiations with game TV channels for licensing is to get our IP rights acknowledged, not to get profits."
You scumbag paul sams if that's all you wanted just IP RIGHT acknowledgement and not profits all mbc and ogn had to do was publish an ad that says ALL rights belong to blizzard and it's done . But No you have to sue both of these broadcaster who are barely surviving .
Second observation
. For last 3 years, Blizzard Korea has only earned 5% of overall worldwide sales, and this is smaller than profits earned within Korea by companies such as HanGame, NCSoft, Nexon, NeoWiz, CJInternet, and other Korean online game companies."
Last 3 years ???? You are comparing you dumb sc2 sales compared to the 10 years previously that the koreans had bought 3 million copies of starcraft 1 and broodwar . What happen to crediting to them for that amount of games bought ? . Seriously I wonder why he even bother turning in up in korea except spreading his notions blizzard as a good company that doesn't like PROFIT . It just make me sick......
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Russian Federation4405 Posts
On December 02 2010 20:59 BLinD-RawR wrote:
Please don't turn this into a massive hate thread against Blizzard
And against Activision? :D
I'm not turning it into hate thread, but if people have hate, they'll have, no matter whether they are allowed to express it in certain threads or not. I just say, that if you hate, hate Activision, not Blizzard. =\
On December 02 2010 21:07 Sawamura wrote:
Paul Sams stated, "Blizzard does not see e-sports as a source of profits. The reason why we are in negotiations with game TV channels for licensing is to get our IP rights acknowledged, not to get profits."
You scumbag paul sams if that's all you wanted just IP RIGHT acknowledgement and not profits all mbc and ogn had to do was publish an ad that says ALL rights belong to blizzard and it's done . But No you have to sue both of these broadcaster who are barely surviving .
Second observation
. For last 3 years, Blizzard Korea has only earned 5% of overall worldwide sales, and this is smaller than profits earned within Korea by companies such as HanGame, NCSoft, Nexon, NeoWiz, CJInternet, and other Korean online game companies."
Last 3 years ???? You are comparing you dumb sc2 sales compared to the 10 years previously that the koreans had bought 3 million copies of starcraft 1 and broodwar . What happen to crediting to them for that amount of games bought ? . Seriously I wonder why he even bother turning in up in korea except spreading his notions blizzard as a good company that doesn't like PROFIT . It just make me sick......
Yes. And he didn't mention that starcraft in Korea affected the whole world's acceptance of Starcraft and Starcraft 2, not only in Korea.
That's what I was talking about, too. =\
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On December 02 2010 21:06 Frankon wrote:
In google case - their plan influences the sales of the books of the authors in the negative ways.On the other hand KeSPA/OGN/MBC have boosted Blizzard's SC:BW sales in korea. So its not like they didn't compensate.
1) Show some consistency. In the Google Case, one can make the argument that making the said books available for free and easily searchable on the Internet (i.e. the theory behind supporters of the Creative Commons License) will boost sales for the authors because it's making them visible. That's basically what you're implying with KeSPA/OGN/MBC and Broodwar.
2) However, whether KeSPA/OGN/MBC is indirectly compensating Blizzard or not is besides the point (contrary to what many posters here have mentioned, Blizzard's agenda isn't short-term profit [see my previous posts on this thread]). They're not respecting Blizzard's perceived IP Rights.
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On December 02 2010 20:31 _Quasar_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 20:05 Emon_ wrote:
Talk about making a hen out of a feather. SC progaming is getting smaller and smaller and these guys just want to snuff it out completely. Petty and unworthy of Blizzard. Never touching a product of theirs again You should blame ACTIVISION Blizzard, I think. Activision is pretty disgusting company, and still manage to get their name not mentioned in this case. But before Activision came to own it, Blizzard wasn't such a piece of sh**. so please let's speak correctly, it's Activision Blizzard, and I'm even sure that more Activision than Blizzard that is responsible for all the bad things we see.
To clarify this: Blizzard isn't owned by Activision. Activision Blizzard as a whole is owned by Vivendi with 52% and they saved the right to get up to 68% of ATVI. Vivendi is the company that owned Blizzard before merging with Activision as well. They just made the former Activision CEO the new ATVI CEO, but that doesn't mean that Activision "owns" Blizzard.
Protecting their IP rights is the most important thing a game company can do, because IP rights is literally everything they have. They spend their money to make the game, balance it, and then it becomes public property so everyone can make a shitload of money with it?
That's just not right, no matter how much Kespa did for e-sports, as soon as they earn money by selling broadcast rights for a product they don't own, Blizzard has to protect their interests.
And i don't really understand how Blizzard could be greedy? You could run 17 proleagues with the Blizzard fee before you reach the amount of money Kespa charged. Kespa reinvested it into the broadcasting channels? So, why did they charge it in the first place just to give it back?
I don't really think so, that's ridiculous.
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On December 02 2010 21:11 _Quasar_ wrote:
I'm not turning it into hate thread, but if people have hate, they'll have, no matter whether they are allowed to express it in certain threads or not. I just say, that if you hate, hate Activision, not Blizzard. =\
Your post is the definition of a hate thread since you're espousing hate.
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Okay, KeSPA is screwed, nice knowing ya. You did allot for E-sport, in SouthKorea at least. Thee will be missed.
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Russian Federation4405 Posts
On December 02 2010 21:23 HorstSchlemmer wrote:
Protecting their IP rights is the most important thing a game company can do, because IP rights is literally everything they have. They spend their money to make the game, balance it, and then it becomes public property so everyone can make a shitload of money with it?
That's just not right, no matter how much Kespa did for e-sports, as soon as they earn money by selling broadcast rights for a product they don't own, Blizzard has to protect their interests.
And i don't really understand how Blizzard could be greedy? You could run 17 proleagues with the Blizzard fee before you reach the amount of money Kespa charged. Kespa reinvested it into the broadcasting channels? So, why did they charge it in the first place just to give it back?
I don't really think so, that's ridiculous.
Protect IP rights - yes. But. KeSPA and Korean progaming isn't just "no one". They should be treated with respect. ActiBlizz doesn't show this respect themselves (but expects it from them).
All those who say about Blizzard's need to "protect themselves" do not mention that korean proscene isn't just some random guys.
By rhetoric, these Blizzard characters hope to really "outspeak" the fact that these progamers are someone to whom they, too, owe something? No way.
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South Africa4316 Posts
Either discuss this topic calmly and rationally, or don't post. This is not an "I hate KeSPA/GOM" thread. It is a thread to discuss Paul Sams's conference, and what it means for the SC community.
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Blizzard shows respect, otherwise they would have just filed and injunction and stop the whole broadcasting and league process in a second until the lawsuit is finished. Instead they let the leagues run until everything is done. That's kind of a big gesture in my opinion?
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Russian Federation4405 Posts
No, it doesn't show. They lie. Respect and lies aren't too compatible. =\ They lie or silence away the facts.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On December 02 2010 22:08 _Quasar_ wrote:
No, it doesn't show. They lie. Respect and lies aren't too compatible. =\ They lie or silence away the facts.
I haven't seen any lies from them, just a whole lot of paranoia and and unfounded claims from the folks here so far.
Good announcement, really proves they are good people, and it looks like blizz will crush KESPA with that kind of lawyering power behind them, and basically unlimited funds compared to, well, not much money at all.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49984 Posts
On December 02 2010 22:23 psion0011 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 22:08 _Quasar_ wrote:
No, it doesn't show. They lie. Respect and lies aren't too compatible. =\ They lie or silence away the facts. I haven't seen any lies from them, just a whole lot of paranoia and and unfounded claims from the folks here so far. Good announcement, really proves they are good people, and it looks like blizz will crush KESPA with that kind of lawyering power behind them, and basically unlimited funds compared to, well, not much money at all.
yeah well I hope they put in some of that unlimited funds on the broadcasting casting companies for the "high level quality" that they are looking for.
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Russian Federation122 Posts
I really want Blizz to file an injunction so these headless fanboys will choke with a rage.
Quazar is really a great example of a fanboy - every post I see of him is filled with eternal blind HATE
User was warned for this post
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49984 Posts
On December 02 2010 22:27 Tirr wrote:
I really want Blizz to file an injunction so these headless fanboys will choke with a rage.
Quazar is really a great example of a fanboy - every post I see of him is filled with eternal blind HATE
to be honest even the "non headless fanboys" would rage if that happened.
Hell I would rage if that happened.
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some of the folks on this thread are behaving like children whos just had their lollipop stolen. they dont see why blizzard is doing this and just whines about how blizzard is a big bad wolf for stealing away their BW. blizzard made starcraft and it is their property. if u take someone elses property and use it to make a living, its only natural to give credit where its due. why are fanboys taking it so personally that blizz is just out to get BW. they are just protecting what is rightfully theirs. so stop whining and let things play out. i cant say for sure what blizzard truely intends for BW scene, but making unjustified statements like some ive seen in this thread is ridiculous.
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Russian Federation122 Posts
On December 02 2010 22:29 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 22:27 Tirr wrote:
I really want Blizz to file an injunction so these headless fanboys will choke with a rage.
Quazar is really a great example of a fanboy - every post I see of him is filled with eternal blind HATE to be honest even the "non headless fanboys" would rage if that happened. Hell I would rage if that happened.
The rage can be different. This situation is not created by Blizzard alone, half of the fault (maybe even more) lies on Kespa. But all we get here - is non-argumental blizzard hate and appeals for boycotting any blizz products.
I personally want Kespa to fail, cause I don't want current situation to come to SC2 scene (I mean closed Korean scene with all major tournaments held only in Korea, with almost no foreigners, with slave B-teamers, with disqualifieing from tournaments for wrong spelling of "gg" and so on)
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"For last 3 years, Blizzard Korea has only earned 5% of overall worldwide sales"
whats the bet this is taking into account monthly subscription of wow users worldwide which makes sense korea is 5%.
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Russian Federation4405 Posts
It's not rage, but I'm kinda tired of endless repeating of statements no one, including ActiBlizz, gave a proper answer to. =\
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I completely back Sams for his statements.
IP rights have got to be recognized by KeSPA and OGN/MBC or they have to suffer for it. If the case goes KeSPA's way, the same thing might happen to StarCraft 2 or any other game out there.
Imagine the cost of StarCraft 2 being in development for 6-7 years only to some country say "hey, it's public proprety"
Thank's for the translation, this news is much bigger than NASA stuff trying to cover up Wikileaks :D
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Russian Federation4405 Posts
The problem is that SC1 being developed rather fast and without such amount of PR is better than this 6-7-year-in-development game, and no one touches this game. They only touch Starcraft Brood War. Sams just spoke some nice words as anyone expected, and anyone supposing that something changed after this is lying to himself.
Only new information that he told is about these 5%. And I've (and someone else) already explained why this is a number not to be trusted. I mean yes, it may be true! But they again, forget some facts that can't be counted by these methods, i.e. contribution of this running proscene to success of other Blizz's stuff.
I'm not backing Blizzard. They say right and nice things, but they do completely wrong actions. No matter how bad is KeSPA (and they, after all, shouldn't be drawing fire to them, that's dishonest too). Blizzard still tries to put bad actions into the sweet sauce.
If the matter was only to acknowledge the non-public property of Starcraft... But it is a lie. Let's wait for KeSPA, OGN, MBC not to be fools and to make some official statement about that they acknowledge IP rights of Blizzard, but ask for normal conditions for them, showing some respect to what they all have done to Blizzard's success. Which is, I again and again would repeat, far more than 5%.
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personally want Kespa to fail, cause I don't want current situation to come to SC2 scene (I mean closed Korean scene with all major tournaments held only in Korea, with almost no foreigners, with slave B-teamers, with disqualifieing from tournaments for wrong spelling of "gg" and so on)
Yeah, because it is Kespas fault, that no western company is interested in real Esports. Seriously, if Kespas fails that means with high probality the death of the BW scene. They have nothing to do with Sc2. In Sc2 it is all up to Blizzards hands. I loose something if Blizz wins, so i am against them. I can't understand why sc2 fanboys dont understand that simple logic. If BW dies now, it is all Blizzards fault. Because they are the reasons. Nobody forces them to sue OGN and MBC. They could really easily give the the Broadcasting right of BW to OGN and/or MBC. For me the only logical explanation is, they want the BW scene to die.
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The points where kespa has asked for 1.7 billion won for broadcasting "rights" in previous years are pretty crystal clear. Blizzard doesn't want people to just commercialize the broadcasting of starcraft matches without so much as a word in edgewise - that's way far beyond "fair use" of someone else's IP.
I find their reasoning behind NOT filing an injunction interesting - demonstrates patience in the proceedings, and a hope that negotiations will work, rather than clamoring for the lawsuit to settle things ASAP. Also probably a nod to the fans&players who still want their daily filling of e-sports.
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The 5% number, given that it includes all of their sales (not just BW in South Korea) is largely meaningless, when you consider the amount of money they make off WoW subs in North America and Europe (two enormous markets).
Essentially Blizzard can go both ways. They could possibly kill BW, which would make most of us rage hardcore. I think Blizzard is smart enough to try and avoid that actual outcome as much as possible. On the other hand, they could improve the scene, implementing some better regulations and standards than Kespa's sometimes questionable ones.
Leaving it as is currently works, but there's a reason Kespa has gotten a ton of flak over the years.
Do have to wonder, that if Blizzard wins how much impact the different flow of money will have. With a portion going to Blizzard (even if they're donating to charities), that's less for Kespa to (supposedly) reinvest right back into the scene.
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Why can't people understand that blizzard can't let this one slide. It would set a terrible precedent, meaning that all future IP (all future games) can be used by a 3rd party to make profit.
That being said, I don't think anyone can make a truly informed objective assessment of the current situation. All we have is what either side can (because of the NDA) and wants to tell us. Both obviously telling their highly subjected side of the story.
As for my personal view of the situation (as limited as it is), I didn't get into starcraft untill sc2 (I did play SC1 single player, but that's it). I think that anyone claiming blizzard does not have any rights to BW in proscene and the game itself is nothing more than a tool being used, is wrong. Blizzard has the IP and has the right to defend it. I think blizzard not filing for an injuction is a good thing for both blizzard and for starcraft (both 1 and 2). I hope they can get this sorted and both scenes are allowed to continue and both can be broadcasted.
As for those saying blizzard should let it go as their success is partially thanks to the success of BW, obviously blizzard benefitted from it. As to what extend is debatable and probably can not be determined to begin with. But even if Kespa is largely responsible for blizzard success, that doesn't mean Blizzard should just give up on defending their own property.
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I back Paul Sam's statement totally. I agree that you can "fudge" the numbers somewhat to make SK profits look like 5% or not, but it doesn't take a genius to realize that Blizzard is a global brand and one small country will not make up the bulk of its revenue. If SK ceased to exist, Blizzard wouldn't go into the tank or anything.
If Kespa hadn't tried to sublease the IP rights themselves, we wouldn't even be in this situation to begin with. Blizzard would have gone on and left the BW scene alone as they had done for 10 years. The IP rights issue is big because it affects all game companies everywhere. Not only that but probably all music and art and invention as well.
The money Blizzard is paying the law firm probably exceeds the broadcasting fee, although i doubt that will ever get published. That alone should be a sign Blizzard isn't there for the profits "now" but for all its future profits and brand globally.
the money they are asking for broadcasting fees is paltry in corporate terms. I don't understand the logic of people who think everything should be free. When you live in a real world with costs, you have to create your own value and pay accordingly. In fact, after the money they spent advertising SC2 in SK while not charging like the rest of the world, they are probably barely scraping even if not losing money in non-WoW endeavors.
Furthermore, they could be big jerks and have the BW leagues closed down immediately while they are in session. Even if the whole SK didn't play SC2 after that, I don't think it would make them rethink their stance. The success of esports in SK is more like a feather in the cap of Blizzard to show their strong brand globally, not necessarily to garner massive profit from said esports.
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Thanks for translating. Inteesting read.
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On December 02 2010 21:19 charlesatan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 21:06 Frankon wrote:
In google case - their plan influences the sales of the books of the authors in the negative ways.On the other hand KeSPA/OGN/MBC have boosted Blizzard's SC:BW sales in korea. So its not like they didn't compensate. 1) Show some consistency. In the Google Case, one can make the argument that making the said books available for free and easily searchable on the Internet (i.e. the theory behind supporters of the Creative Commons License) will boost sales for the authors because it's making them visible. That's basically what you're implying with KeSPA/OGN/MBC and Broodwar. 2) However, whether KeSPA/OGN/MBC is indirectly compensating Blizzard or not is besides the point (contrary to what many posters here have mentioned, Blizzard's agenda isn't short-term profit [see my previous posts on this thread]). They're not respecting Blizzard's perceived IP Rights.
Ok so according to you i can play SC by watching it on TV??
Thats the difference between Google case and this one. You could read the damm book and than said. Ok i red it now i don't have to buy it from bookstore (keep in mind that some authors get a % of the total sale of books and thx to google it would decrase).
YOU CAN'T PLAY THE GAME BY WATCHING IT BEING PLAYED ON TV BY SOMEONE ELSE (talking about SC). YOU HAVE TO BUY IT (pirate it on ICC Cup or anything) TO BE ABLE TO PLAY. So basically if you liked what you saw you buy the game so you can play. In book case - > I red it. Ok time to look for some other book.
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On December 02 2010 15:30 infinitestory wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 15:27 CanucksJC wrote:
Reading the comments on the Fomos board, it seems like Blizzard hiring 'Kim & Chang' lawyer group is THE deciding factor of this whole thing. They're saying that Blizzard already had an upper hand, and them hiring the best lawyer group in the country just basically ended this whole thing. Legal advantages will likely pale in comparison to emotional advantages, which the broadcasting companies (but not KeSPA) command ;O
That didn't seem to help when Kespa stole Proleague.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49984 Posts
On December 03 2010 00:38 DiamondTear wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 15:30 infinitestory wrote:On December 02 2010 15:27 CanucksJC wrote:
Reading the comments on the Fomos board, it seems like Blizzard hiring 'Kim & Chang' lawyer group is THE deciding factor of this whole thing. They're saying that Blizzard already had an upper hand, and them hiring the best lawyer group in the country just basically ended this whole thing. Legal advantages will likely pale in comparison to emotional advantages, which the broadcasting companies (but not KeSPA) command ;O That didn't seem to help when Kespa stole Proleague.
KeSPA stole proleague?I thought it was always theirs.....
please elaborate.
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On December 02 2010 14:08 OreoBoi wrote:
First thing he says is
While we see South Korea as an important market, the profits gained is not that big in comparison to overall earnings worldwide.
Then he says:
Blizzard does not see e-sports as a source of profits. The reason why we are in negotiations with game TV channels for licensing is to get our IP rights acknowledged, not to get profits."
I don't understand talking about profits and then saying you don't want profits.
First part was in response to some of the propaganda (likely spread around by KESPA) that stated that the south korean market represent 60% of sales of Starcraft. 5% might seem very low, but when you think of global sales of the game, even just those that bought the game for the single player or UMS maps, it's not that much of a stretch.
They might represent a good portion of recent sales, but that's not saying a whole lot for a decade old game.
The second part is fairly straight forward reiteration of their main point of contention in the negotiations.
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On December 02 2010 14:26 zenMaster wrote:
"5% of overall profit of all of Blizzard products over the recent 3 years." That is the way I see this propaganda.
Well obviously a 10 year old game doesn't sell that well any more, and 5% overall profit is fucking amazing considering the market size compared to the rest of the world.
Anybody with simple logic can see through this bullshit.
The 5% is what Blizzard Korea pulls in, that includes everything going on in Korea. The reason why it's so small is thanks to the enormity of World of Warcraft and its expansions in China, the US, and Europe. That accounts for well over half of Blizzard's profits (as of a year or two ago, I'll see if I can find a link if you're REALLY interested), and Starcraft is relatively minor since:
A) It's mostly played in PC Baangs over the free Battle.net, meaning Blizzard isn't getting anything from game sales at all.
B) They currently have 0 stake in any productions for SC1 thanks to KeSPA and the networks ignoring their IP rights, meaning the MSL, OSL, etc give them no revenue.
5% is still amazing for a country so small, but in reality, it's quite insignificant in comparison to other markets.
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Thanks for the translation!
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I am utterly confused by people thinking that this is about money for Blizzard.
"E-Sports", as it currently stands and will probably stand for some time, is the tiniest of niches.
Blizzard is a company that counts profits in Billions, not the seven figures that "E-Sports" is generating in the best, best, best case scenario.
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On December 03 2010 01:14 deth2munkies wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 14:26 zenMaster wrote:
"5% of overall profit of all of Blizzard products over the recent 3 years." That is the way I see this propaganda.
Well obviously a 10 year old game doesn't sell that well any more, and 5% overall profit is fucking amazing considering the market size compared to the rest of the world.
Anybody with simple logic can see through this bullshit. The 5% is what Blizzard Korea pulls in, that includes everything going on in Korea. The reason why it's so small is thanks to the enormity of World of Warcraft and its expansions in China, the US, and Europe. That accounts for well over half of Blizzard's profits (as of a year or two ago, I'll see if I can find a link if you're REALLY interested), and Starcraft is relatively minor since: A) It's mostly played in PC Baangs over the free Battle.net, meaning Blizzard isn't getting anything from game sales at all. B) They currently have 0 stake in any productions for SC1 thanks to KeSPA and the networks ignoring their IP rights, meaning the MSL, OSL, etc give them no revenue. 5% is still amazing for a country so small, but in reality, it's quite insignificant in comparison to other markets.
5% isn't including WOW, 5% isn't including any other franchise of Blizzard. 5% isn't "recent sales" (if anything recent sales in South Korea is probably the 60% KESPA likes to throw around as if this game didn't make most of it's profits in the first 5 years)
5% is considering they sold this game in many many many semi-dev. to dev. countries, many of which are significantly larger than South Korea. If you payed by the hour, then yes Starcraft has been played much more extensively, but we don't so as a result, the South korean market is worth 5% of their sales of Starcraft and Starcraft BW.
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All other ulterior motives aside, i don't think anyone can dispute that the death of the BW proscene is good for Blizzard. Blizzard, as of the release of SC2 has already gained everything it possibly can from BW eSports (public interest and confidence in possibly being a viable eSport). Killing BW will not hurt them as Koreans hate KeSPA and the blame can easily be shifted to KeSPA and they have everything to gain from the hastened transition of BW fans/players -> SC2. Of course the entire BW fanbase will not switch to SC2 just like that but all it takes for someone like me who does not enjoy SC2 as a spectator sport to watch it is some of my favourite progamers to make the switch which many will undoubtedly do with the untimely demise of BW.
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5003 Posts
On December 02 2010 18:47 charlesatan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 17:28 Milkis wrote:
The issue is that MBC/OGN/KeSPA has a very different idea of "Recognizing IP rights" than Blizzard does. Who is right? Who knows. When it comes to IP Rights, the advantage is with Blizzard: 1) By default (or as known in the rest of the rest of the world), Starcraft is Blizzard's property. Now it is possible to claim in court that certain aspects of the game isn't Blizzard's (i.e. it's public) but you'd have to prove that claim. (Of course there are also other deciding factors, such as rules of the country you're in [good luck enforcing IP rights in Taiwan for example] but in general, it's easier to prove Blizzard's claim than KeSPA's. That's not to say Blizzard's side is sure to win in such a lawsuit, but they have the advantage.) 2) In general, it's also bad form to break terms [b]during negotiations. Surprisingly, based on the interview, Blizzard didn't file an injunction (which would halt the airing of BroodWar until everything can be settled in court) and just filed a lawsuit. Show nested quote +
EDIT: Also, I don't buy the "barrier to entry" bullshit. If so, they would need to do it once, not for every contract. Doing it for every contract does not go along with "Barriers to entry", it's just a transaction cost at that point -_-
Sorry but that's how the real world works. Licenses (and franchises) are usually for a set period of time (usually one year but terms can be negotiated). The company needs to prove that they're still fit and able to produce the shows. OGN ten years from now for example might not be as capable as OGN last year. A "regular" license fee is reasonable.
Oh, of course if you look at it from a pure law perspective, the case is Blizzard's. But in the end -- what does Blizzard mean by "recognizing IP rights"? If we consider Blizzard's EULA it honestly looks like they want KeSPA to just be completely submissive to them. I think there's a clear clash here -- KeSPA believes that they do recognize Blizzard's rights, but they believe Blizzard asks beyond what is acceptable.
A "regular" license fee is reasonable, I agree -- but it completely defeats the "barriers to entry" idea that they were claiming. If it is actually a barriers to entry thing, then it's easy to imagine a much saner contract on all parties. But honestly, it seems like a bad cover up overall.
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Blizzard acknowledging that E-Sports makes them no money shouldn't come as a huge surprise to anyone. I can get on board with Blizz and their IP rights issue, but the real reason they're doing all this is because of lack luster sales of SC2 in Korea.
The main reason Blizz is pushing SC2 in Korea so hard is because half of SC1 global sales came from Korea. I doubt they'll be able to duplicate those sales figures, but they still see Korea as a huge untapped market for SC2 in terms of revenue. As it stand now, I doubt Korea even accounts for 5% of Global SC2 sales.
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Thank you for the translation. Was a nice perspective to read. Hopefully this means we are closer to the end of this than before.
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Korea is not representing 5% from the all world. So, having 5% sales only in Korea should make Blizz happy not sad.
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On December 02 2010 23:43 Abraxa wrote:
Why can't people understand that blizzard can't let this one slide. It would set a terrible precedent, meaning that all future IP (all future games) can be used by a 3rd party to make profit.
That being said, I don't think anyone can make a truly informed objective assessment of the current situation. All we have is what either side can (because of the NDA) and wants to tell us. Both obviously telling their highly subjected side of the story.
As for my personal view of the situation (as limited as it is), I didn't get into starcraft untill sc2 (I did play SC1 single player, but that's it). I think that anyone claiming blizzard does not have any rights to BW in proscene and the game itself is nothing more than a tool being used, is wrong. Blizzard has the IP and has the right to defend it. I think blizzard not filing for an injuction is a good thing for both blizzard and for starcraft (both 1 and 2). I hope they can get this sorted and both scenes are allowed to continue and both can be broadcasted.
As for those saying blizzard should let it go as their success is partially thanks to the success of BW, obviously blizzard benefitted from it. As to what extend is debatable and probably can not be determined to begin with. But even if Kespa is largely responsible for blizzard success, that doesn't mean Blizzard should just give up on defending their own property.
I've noticed that some people here, mostly from areas in the world with weak judicial systems, have no idea how a formal legal system works. They don't understand that the legal term "precedent" has a very specific meaning and that Blizzard letting this slide can be used against them in court in future lawsuits.
The arguments put forth by Kespa can be used in future lawsuits by or against other parties if Blizzard lets this slide. Funny enough, Korean game companies can be adversely affected by a ruling against Blizzard. Korea is a civil law country, though, so it might not be that bad compared to a common law country like the US.
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Blizzard sure is sparing no expense here.
5% simply means that the amount of profit from recent quarters gathered from SC2, WoW, and other Blizzard productions simply account for 5% of the total profit that Blizzard is gathering from its productions across the globe.
Keep in mind that SC2 is not selling as dramatically well as people hoped and WoW is far from the #1 MMORPG in Korea. No other Blizzard product has much relevance to that profit figure for this year.
The way I see it is that Blizzard is investing for the future. If Blizzard gets what exactly it is aiming for, there is great potential. But as of right now, as it stands, Blizzard is probably losing money rather than gaining for investing money into E-sports. Whatever pathetic little profit Gretech is getting is just keeping the company afloat and little else.
Of all the "e-sport viable" products out there, Blizzard has hold on WarCraft, BW, and SC2. Valve has Counterstrike. I can't even name fifth title that can even be considered as "e-sport material". Blizzard is definitely aiming to become a global leader in what potentially can become the next huge thing as the world progresses forward and video games becoming more and more relevant to the mainstream population.
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They spent a decade making the best game on the planet. Let them defend their intellectual property from being exploited.
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On December 03 2010 07:00 dukethegold wrote:
Blizzard sure is sparing no expense here.
5% simply means that the amount of profit from recent quarters gathered from SC2, WoW, and other Blizzard productions simply account for 5% of the total profit that Blizzard is gathering from its productions across the globe.
Keep in mind that SC2 is not selling as dramatically well as people hoped and WoW is far from the #1 MMORPG in Korea. No other Blizzard product has much relevance to that profit figure for this year.
The way I see it is that Blizzard is investing for the future. If Blizzard gets what exactly it is aiming for, there is great potential. But as of right now, as it stands, Blizzard is probably losing money rather than gaining for investing money into E-sports. Whatever pathetic little profit Gretech is getting is just keeping the company afloat and little else.
Of all the "e-sport viable" products out there, Blizzard has hold on WarCraft, BW, and SC2. Valve has Counterstrike. I can't even name fifth title that can even be considered as "e-sport material". Blizzard is definitely aiming to become a global leader in what potentially can become the next huge thing as the world progresses forward and video games becoming more and more relevant to the mainstream population.
Sorry for being off-topic but a fifth title that can be considered as "e-sport material" would be Quake. The best competitive fps from an objective point of view.
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Yeah suing the only 2 broadcasting stations that broastcast e-sport and set up the scene is all "for the sake of esport" lol.
Without those broadcasting stations, the notion of esport didn't even pop out.
In the future, people are gonna have to watch esport on internet streams, it's very beneficial for esport lol.
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On December 03 2010 08:44 magitek wrote:
They spent a decade making the best game on the planet. Let them defend their intellectual property from being exploited.
bw didn't take a decade to make
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Can someone tell me more about IP rights? What is IP right?
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sounds like bunch of baloney and propaganda
User was warned for this post
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Estonia4504 Posts
On December 02 2010 22:57 s.a.y wrote:
If the case goes KeSPA's way, the same thing might happen to StarCraft 2 or any other game out there.
Imagine the cost of StarCraft 2 being in development for 6-7 years only to some country say "hey, it's public proprety"
I'm only asking this because I really don't understand your position. I often hear it though, so perhaps you can answer this. Is that really so bad when put into perspective?
The fall of the KeSPA system would, as far as I've heard, lead to the unemployment to hundreds of people, a lot of them progamers who have invested significant amounts of time and effort into the game, only to be thrown aside later. Sure, the principle is, KeSPA should have asked and arranged a deal to do it legitimately, but is this really the greater of two evils?
How does the current KeSPA system negatively affect Blizzard? In their defense, it would be ideal if they received some money and could have a say in the choices KeSPA makes, but it shouldn't ever amount to a sum that makes broadcasting BW too costly to do or give them complete control over the entire operation. KeSPA argues Blizzard is doing just that. The profits should, however, be almost exactly the same, since the E-sports market will probably never be profitable in a direct way, since given the current proposed contract, Blizzard doesn't receive any money! This is not a good outcome for E-sports either way.
On the positive side, the KeSPA system keeps a lot of people employed, has remained a stable environment for sponsors, doesn't need outside money to be financed at the moment, and allows people other than the owner to care about the game.
I am convinced that watching 2 people play a game and playing a game are completely different things, and that's why the claim of "public property" of televised games makes somewhat sense. Sure, there are really good arguments for the other side as well, since the audio and visual parts of the game undoubtedly belong to Blizzard. However, whether a negative outcome for KeSPA is really beneficial for E-Sports or game developers is really in question. The status quo would largely remain in place, and if that wasn't good for E-sports in some way, I really have no idea why I started visiting this forum.
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Alas,
Each of these posts seem to have the same replys, ppl who are pro blizzard quote paragraphs and say "Told you blizzard just wants hugs and kisses." People who are anti blizzard take statements out of context and try to twist them to their point of view.
Personally I haven't been following BW since the begining but if i where blizzard, and i had spent millions of dollars developing a game, then went on to other games and came back and saw that the game i had made years ago had grown and someone else was charging others for the right to broadcast those games, I'd be pist. For whatever reason, I would ask that company wtf right do they have to do such a thing and at the very least I would want some sort of acknowledgement.
I really don't think Blizzard wants to kill BW, I coudnt see how that would be good business. I think in fair court Blizzard would smash any company in regards to IP rights. I think blizzard is screwed in this either way, I see them trying to protect what is theirs and no matter what people are going to look at this outcome and say either theyre dickheads if they win and theyre dickheads if they lose.
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Estonia4504 Posts
On December 03 2010 18:18 Ctoan wrote:
Alas,
Personally I haven't been following BW since the begining but if i where blizzard, and i had spent millions of dollars developing a game, then went on to other games and came back and saw that the game i had made years ago had grown and someone else was charging others for the right to watch that game, I'd be pist.
No-one is being charged to watch, only the 2 broadcasting channels have to pay fees to keep Proleague running. We've heard that misinformation countless times, please stop.
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On December 03 2010 18:23 mustaju wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 18:18 Ctoan wrote:
Alas,
Personally I haven't been following BW since the begining but if i where blizzard, and i had spent millions of dollars developing a game, then went on to other games and came back and saw that the game i had made years ago had grown and someone else was charging others for the right to watch that game, I'd be pist.
No-one is being charged to watch, only the 2 broadcasting channels have to pay fees to keep Proleague running. We've heard that misinformation countless times, please stop.
Lol sry i meant to say broadcast, i guess ill edit my post, ty for picking 1 word out of the entire post to pick on <3 But kiiiiinda the sort of thing i was talking about....
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Estonia4504 Posts
On December 03 2010 18:27 Ctoan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 18:23 mustaju wrote:On December 03 2010 18:18 Ctoan wrote:
Alas,
Personally I haven't been following BW since the begining but if i where blizzard, and i had spent millions of dollars developing a game, then went on to other games and came back and saw that the game i had made years ago had grown and someone else was charging others for the right to watch that game, I'd be pist.
No-one is being charged to watch, only the 2 broadcasting channels have to pay fees to keep Proleague running. We've heard that misinformation countless times, please stop. Lol sry i meant to say broadcast, i guess ill edit my post, ty for picking 1 word out of the entire post to pick on <3 But kiiiiinda the sort of thing i was talking about....
It's actually a huge difference, since OGN and MBC are parts of KeSPA. This is what makes it a non-profit organization instead of a for-profit organization, hugely altering the stance of the law. Selling movies and showing them publically at your place is one example of this.
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On December 03 2010 18:34 mustaju wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 18:27 Ctoan wrote:On December 03 2010 18:23 mustaju wrote:On December 03 2010 18:18 Ctoan wrote:
Alas,
Personally I haven't been following BW since the begining but if i where blizzard, and i had spent millions of dollars developing a game, then went on to other games and came back and saw that the game i had made years ago had grown and someone else was charging others for the right to watch that game, I'd be pist.
No-one is being charged to watch, only the 2 broadcasting channels have to pay fees to keep Proleague running. We've heard that misinformation countless times, please stop. Lol sry i meant to say broadcast, i guess ill edit my post, ty for picking 1 word out of the entire post to pick on <3 But kiiiiinda the sort of thing i was talking about.... It's actually a huge difference, since OGN and MBC are parts of KeSPA. This is what makes it a non-profit organization instead of a for-profit organization, hugely altering the stance of the law. Selling movies and showing them publically at your place is one example of this.
One way to look at it is that each of the sponsors has fees. They pay for everything involving the teams (dorms, practice house, salaries, coaches, uniforms, equipment, travel, etc), and membership fees to KeSPA. Only 2 of these sponsors actually draw a revenue at all from this process (OGN and MBC, through selling commercials during events), and as a result have slightly higher fees to even it out. None of the other sponsors (like SKT, KT, Samsung, etc) recieve compensation for their investments as their businesses are not directly linked, but simply invest into e-Sports for the publicity and PR.
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On December 03 2010 18:34 mustaju wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 18:27 Ctoan wrote:On December 03 2010 18:23 mustaju wrote:On December 03 2010 18:18 Ctoan wrote:
Alas,
Personally I haven't been following BW since the begining but if i where blizzard, and i had spent millions of dollars developing a game, then went on to other games and came back and saw that the game i had made years ago had grown and someone else was charging others for the right to watch that game, I'd be pist.
No-one is being charged to watch, only the 2 broadcasting channels have to pay fees to keep Proleague running. We've heard that misinformation countless times, please stop. Lol sry i meant to say broadcast, i guess ill edit my post, ty for picking 1 word out of the entire post to pick on <3 But kiiiiinda the sort of thing i was talking about.... It's actually a huge difference, since OGN and MBC are parts of KeSPA. This is what makes it a non-profit organization instead of a for-profit organization, hugely altering the stance of the law. Selling movies and showing them publically at your place is one example of this.
Obviously not what i was talking about.
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Estonia4504 Posts
On December 03 2010 18:46 Ctoan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 18:34 mustaju wrote:On December 03 2010 18:27 Ctoan wrote:On December 03 2010 18:23 mustaju wrote:On December 03 2010 18:18 Ctoan wrote:
Alas,
Personally I haven't been following BW since the begining but if i where blizzard, and i had spent millions of dollars developing a game, then went on to other games and came back and saw that the game i had made years ago had grown and someone else was charging others for the right to watch that game, I'd be pist.
No-one is being charged to watch, only the 2 broadcasting channels have to pay fees to keep Proleague running. We've heard that misinformation countless times, please stop. Lol sry i meant to say broadcast, i guess ill edit my post, ty for picking 1 word out of the entire post to pick on <3 But kiiiiinda the sort of thing i was talking about.... It's actually a huge difference, since OGN and MBC are parts of KeSPA. This is what makes it a non-profit organization instead of a for-profit organization, hugely altering the stance of the law. Selling movies and showing them publically at your place is one example of this. Obviously not what i was talking about.
I didn't reply to respond to your main argument, because I have seen that countless times and it's been answered countless times with wildly differing interpretations.
I replied because it is not a little thing to mix up and I'm sad to see so many people accusing KeSPA of being an organization that makes a boatload of money off someone else's product. Except for the promotion/PR/advertising spots, they don't. And whether or not they are allowed to do that, depends on the interpretation of the term "derivative rights."
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I didnt stipulate at the amount of money being made by kespa at all i was just saying that they are in fact charging others for a game that isnt theirs.
I wasn't even trying to say blizzard was all right in this situation just that people seem to be misconstruing and taking things out of context and picking every little thing apart and then giving my opinion that either way blizzards PR has their job cut out for them.
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Estonia4504 Posts
On December 03 2010 18:55 Ctoan wrote:
I didnt stipulate at the amount of money being made by kespa at all i was just saying that they are in fact charging others for a game that isnt theirs.
According to KeSPA, they pay for having KeSPA players and the tournament owners indirectly to have something to broadcast, not for the game itself. Another big difference in attitude between KeSPA and Blizzard supporters. KeSPA supporters argue that they have the right to do so, because they have the contracts with the players and because they created the tournament itself. Blizzard supporters stress the importance of the tool, the game.
I'd say that is not as clear cut at all.
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On December 03 2010 18:55 Ctoan wrote:
I didnt stipulate at the amount of money being made by kespa at all i was just saying that they are in fact charging others for a game that isnt theirs.
They are not charging for the game, and they are not claiming to own the game. The leagues are running using KeSPA-signed players and staff, and KeSPA is getting some compensation for that (like an additional membership fee for the two broadcasters, as they draw a revenue unlike the others as I mentioned above). To my knowledge, KeSPA does not charge OGN and MBC fees for their other BW shows (ladder/UMS) like Shinae's show, or the various others. The fee is not for BW, but for running a league using their players and staff.
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Lol look at them bending numbers..
5% sales in the last 3 years..
What game did they release in the last 3 years? Practically none outside of WoW (constant source of income)..
I believe the issue in question would be how much revenue of Starcraft is from Korea. And it obviously isnt a measly 5%..
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On December 03 2010 19:02 mustaju wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 18:55 Ctoan wrote:
I didnt stipulate at the amount of money being made by kespa at all i was just saying that they are in fact charging others for a game that isnt theirs. According to KeSPA, they pay for having KeSPA players and the tournament owners indirectly to have something to broadcast, not for the game itself. Another big difference in attitude between KeSPA and Blizzard supporters. KeSPA supporters argue that they have the right to do so, because they have the contracts with the players and because they created the tournament itself. Blizzard supporters stress the importance of the tool, the game. I'd say that is not as clear cut at all.
Clear cut? Remove SCBW. What do you have? You're going to say, but what if they remove the players and the structure of KESPA.
KESPA needs SCBW to continue exsisting. SCBW doesnt need KESPA to be a game.
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Estonia4504 Posts
On December 03 2010 19:07 Ctoan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 19:02 mustaju wrote:On December 03 2010 18:55 Ctoan wrote:
I didnt stipulate at the amount of money being made by kespa at all i was just saying that they are in fact charging others for a game that isnt theirs. According to KeSPA, they pay for having KeSPA players and the tournament owners indirectly to have something to broadcast, not for the game itself. Another big difference in attitude between KeSPA and Blizzard supporters. KeSPA supporters argue that they have the right to do so, because they have the contracts with the players and because they created the tournament itself. Blizzard supporters stress the importance of the tool, the game. I'd say that is not as clear cut at all. Clear cut? Remove SCBW. What do you have? You're going to say, but what if they remove the players and the structure of KESPA. KESPA needs SCBW to continue exsisting. SCBW doesnt need KESPA to be a game.
Side-note: KeSPA does have other games, actually. Admittedly, BW is the most important one, but it could still survive the fall of BW.
Sure, KeSPA couldn't do anything with the players and the tournament itself without the tool, the game. But the question is, did they do anything illegal with the tool? And if so, what should the repercussions be? How much of their usage of the game can be attributed to derivative rights, and how much is misuse of copyrighted material?
And perhaps most importantly, what does this bode for the fans of that game?
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Blah, im just trying to say that the arguements go either way and you can see both their points. Overall i would be more offended in the seat of Blizzard, if KESPA had been a little more tactful they couldve avoided this endgame but we are where we are. Can easily say KESPA is where they are by their own choosing where as Blizzard has come to this point by their negligence.
Overall i hope for the the best but as i was saying, this is going to be intrepreted either way by peoples bias.
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Estonia4504 Posts
On December 03 2010 19:32 Ctoan wrote:
Blah, im just trying to say that the arguements go either way and you can see both their points. Overall i would be more offended in the seat of Blizzard, if KESPA had been a little more tactful they couldve avoided this endgame but we are where we are. Can easily say KESPA is where they are by their own choosing where as Blizzard has come to this point by their negligence.
Overall i hope for the the best but as i was saying, this is going to be intrepreted either way by peoples bias.
While I'm biased as a BW fanatic, I can see Blizzards supporters points, and I'm more accepting of Blizzard than before. I think we're in the same boat. Let's hope for the best!
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Well the conclusion that i got from this article is that Blizzard is trying to nulify the possible back up that the government in Korea could do in support of the broadcasters and Kespa, first saying that Korea isnt now in the list of "ip" violation countries (he is implying some change there if they dont win the lawsuit) and secondly hiring the most important law firm (big law firms have big contacts in the goverment), the other things are only PR sentences trying to justify its actions if something happens to the SC:BW scene.
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guys
i'm really stupid when it comes to laws, rights and what not
i read the whole OP and some of the comments
but I still couldnt figure out what does blizzard really want.
this "acknowledgment", what does it consist of?
they want a bite of the profits? rofl
I ask this coz I know that one of the reasons HD and Husky are postponing their torney is related to "blizzard approval" or something.. seriously, are they THAT insecure about their product? wanna centralize even small tournaments? that's BS imo
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On December 03 2010 19:05 ffreakk wrote:
Lol look at them bending numbers..
5% sales in the last 3 years..
What game did they release in the last 3 years? Practically none outside of WoW (constant source of income)..
I believe the issue in question would be how much revenue of Starcraft is from Korea. And it obviously isnt a measly 5%..
The point was to show that Blizzard does not need Kespa as much as Kespa likes to think.
A million sales in Korea generates far less revenue to Blizzard than a million sales in USA or euro.
Elements from Licensing model, to price of product, makes a huge difference in terms of revenue. Not to mention the WOW Cash cow .
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I would love to see that article Sam speaks of. I would be surprised if the author didn't mean 60% of Starcraft/Brood War sales because that's the only correlation you could make regarding KeSPA and Starcraft.
One thing's for sure. There is a lot of spin-doctoring going around.
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On December 04 2010 05:01 battarro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 19:05 ffreakk wrote:
Lol look at them bending numbers..
5% sales in the last 3 years..
What game did they release in the last 3 years? Practically none outside of WoW (constant source of income)..
I believe the issue in question would be how much revenue of Starcraft is from Korea. And it obviously isnt a measly 5%.. The point was to show that Blizzard does not need Kespa as much as Kespa likes to think. A million sales in Korea generates far less revenue to Blizzard than a million sales in USA or euro. Elements from Licensing model, to price of product, makes a huge difference in terms of revenue. Not to mention the WOW Cash cow .
No Blizzard doesnt need Kespa, in fact they would prefer it if Kespa disappears (at least thats how i read it).. But Blizz wants to establish themselves in Korea.
And im merely pointing out that Paul were using their profit "in the last 3 years" to play down Korea as a revenue source. Since SC2 is only released a few months back, the rest of "last 3 years" were WoW and only WoW. I think we all agree that E-Sport in Korea is famous for supporting Starcraft, and not WoW, so of course they werent a big part of Blizz's "last 3 years profit".
Im also ignoring the parts where they blatantly lied about charging the Broadcasting Stations only 20% of what Kespa does, since by this point probably nobody enjoy shitfests and flame wars anymore.
Peace out.
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Continued, he stated, "Blizzard has invested massive amount of money to develop StarCraft. Trying to set it apart into a public property is completely destroying the IP rights of the developer, and it will certainly reduce amount of investments for further creative game developments."
Yes please do this so I never play one of your games again. Idiots
I love how they try to do this to say ''if what we want doesn't happen, then we will make shitty games'' thinking that their games are the only games in the world
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In a nutshell: We don't need Korean esports money because we're trillionares from WoW already, but we're gonna demand it anyways.
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Lol this is ridiculous.
Of course that Blizzard Korea only gives 5$ of BLIZZARD GLOBAL PROFIT.
Blizzard isn't only SC2 and their main income is from WoW and probably China might be the biggest country that contributes to the global profit and I'm mega super duper sure that WoW is the game, inside Blizzards, that provides the most part othe globa income of blizzard.
What I want to know is how much was the income produced in Korea thanks to the selling of starcraft 1 + starcraft:bw + Starcraft 2:WoL, compared to the same games in the rest of the world.
Blizzard really mess it up sometimes.
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On December 02 2010 17:50 AlBundy wrote:
Thank you translator team, Selith and Milkis.
About Kim & Chang: Oh my. The netizens were right, IP rights abuse is over.
I am really surprised that Blizzard were able to get Kim & Chang. The typical rules prevent a law firm representing clients that might potentially be opponents in court. Since Kespa is made up of all those corporations, you would think one of them already had Kim & Chang on retainer. I would wait and see on the law firm thing. If one of the big corporation raise an issue on this, K&C would be completely conflicted out or risk losing business from the big corporations that are part of Kespa.
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Russian Federation4405 Posts
That's what i wanted to post before i found out I was banned. Well, i guess it was a reasonable measure after all, and now i think my post won't start any flame war.
I don't remember to who did I answer, so I can't insert a quote. Here it is:
+ Show Spoiler +Not only you, all e-sports would lose if BW scene was closed. =\
Because SC2 is a one-day game, many people returned from it to BW, claiming that it hasn't its depth. Only reason I see for people staying in SC2 is money. And prize money some time ends. %_%
So I'm against Blizzard, too. And we have right on this side, when at the same time Blizzard's side is full of lie. They haven't to be that arrogant when lieing. Korean pro's contribution is far larger than 5%.
And for all those who care about Starcraft too, don't draw fire to KeSPA, because this is exactly what Blizzard wants. Then it will be not hard for them to destroy SC scene. Don't go against your own goal, at least. =\
Waiting for right actions from OGN/MBC/KeSPA, which definitely will show how much lie or truth are there in Blizzard's words. I think, not much.
P.S.: I'm really satisfied with the KESPA's response that they gave in another thread. Completely reasonable and very human response. Although I think they too need improvement. I hope the crisis gives them the opportunity to do so.
P.P.S.: I would really be happy even if KeSPA lost their power and Blizzard got power over the SC:BW. But if they would just shut down the leagues, they would be just bastards. After such a great contribution to their popularity that koreans did (which is more than 5% part of their success and thus ==>> of their money earned), to show such few respect to them would be plainly inconsistent of them. =___=
I still boycott SC2 and call others that truly love BW to (silently and probably even without posting it =__=) join it.
But I would be so happy if Blizzard just let BW live and supported it, and if their words about their will to co-exist BW and SC2 were true... I'm so tired of this bullshit wars. If they'd finally showed some humanity and truth, i'd love Blizzard and Paul Sams more than ever, wow they'd be such gods in my eyes! They'd actually make lots and lots of people HAPPY. And I'd buy myself Starcraft 2 and stop any flame about it anywhere, and lol, i'd even make 132958723458907 of threads about how pirating games is bad and how you must buy them in a normal way so that the labour of the developers is appreciated and it would prevent such bullshit from happening again.
Honesty is the best politics, Blizzard.
If your major point in this statement (saying that e-sports =/= source of profits) turns out to be a lie - it will be a MAJOR shame for you so NO ONE again believes what you are saying.
I hope everyone is understanding that.
___________
Not to double post:
I think KESPA's second move should be to volutarily fulfill Blizzard's demand about clearly showing SCBW logo and Blizzard logo during matches. They should literally fulfill every their demand that doesn't concern money feedback. I think this is what they should do (not sure about the exact way it should be done). Then they really could face the truth or lie that is behind the Blizzard's statements.
That is the logic of this situation I think. They should put humanity above all, as they chose to play on this side. Let's look on which side is Blizzard.
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On December 04 2010 03:31 DayJP wrote:
guys
i'm really stupid when it comes to laws, rights and what not
i read the whole OP and some of the comments
but I still couldnt figure out what does blizzard really want.
this "acknowledgment", what does it consist of?
they want a bite of the profits? rofl
I ask this coz I know that one of the reasons HD and Husky are postponing their torney is related to "blizzard approval" or something.. seriously, are they THAT insecure about their product? wanna centralize even small tournaments? that's BS imo
I'm not a wiz either, but they want the rules about IP to be followed. If they start to allow people to break rules without consequences, it could get worse for each case. The rule is simple, do not use the brand Starcraft 2 without authorization. If they do not enforce this from the very beginning, it could get out of hand. Lets do an example:
First offense: Small tournament with small prices. Permission not asked.
Second offense: Bigger tournament with medium prices. Permission not asked.
Third offense: Full blown international tournament with large prices. Lots of broadcasting and commercial income. Permission not asked.
Fourth offense: Production of smaller Starcraft 2 items, like Marine mobile phone charms or SC2 ring tones. Permission not asked.
Fifth offense: Production of bigger Starcraft 2 items, like Marine plushie, bedsheets etc.
Permission not asked.
Sixth offense: Starcraft spinoffs into other games, books etc. Permission really needed?
It is like punishing a kid for stealing a cookie. The amount is not relevant, it is the principle. What would he do, when he could get away with stealing cookies without any consequence? He will try bigger things.
I have not taken any stance in how Blizzard is enforcing this (with their token amount), but that is actually a different discussion. It would be good if people would not mix them up. Blizzard needs to take a stance, as far as I am concerned. I am not well informed enough if their approach is fair, but it is in their right.
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It's pretty straightforward. Blizzard isn't making money off of this, but they don't want someone else *stealing* their IP and making it their own. And that's what some greedy bastards tried to do, charge other people for the rights to Blizzard's IP without even acknowledging that Blizzard owns it let alone getting permission.
This isn't about profits, but control of your own product. If someone copied an artis's paintings and charged for it, it wouldn't matter that the artists might not have profited from it.
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EPT
