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battarro
United States59 Posts
Why don't let the players decide to participate or not, instead of taking the option away from them? You need to realize that Kespa EQUALS the teams, It is not a separate agency regulated by a third party observer. It is an agency where the teams make the decisions. It is effectively a cartel/union of the teams. Just google "GOMtv classic kespa boycott history season 4" | ||
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battarro
United States59 Posts
Team liquid and OGs just setup a team house with more players than a SC1 team and im sure their overall budget was well under 1 mill. I do understand that housing/ management /logistics costs, but when you are talking about a difference in the millions of dollars, from 1-2 millions on salary to 15 millions in sponsor money, you have to think about exploitation. But i guess that is OK, since as you said it, it is Korea. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5500 Posts
On October 20 2010 03:23 ptz wrote: Sean Oh is full of crap, period. 20 mil $ is like less than 15 million euros. Salaries for a top team with lets say 15 players on the roster cant go higher than 2-3 million. A condo rent for one year, and food, and equipment another 1-2 million. Get real. Make a list. Stop trusting all you read, just cuz sean oh says so. I'd rather trust Sean Oh than made up on the spot "estimations." | ||
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battarro
United States59 Posts
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ffreakk
Singapore2155 Posts
As to the part where teams pulling their players due to overfatigue + GOM's league lacking in prestige.. Please, you people are treating their job the same as your "playing games".. Do remember that those are professionals who get paid sizable sums every month to play their game professionally. Would you spend hundreds of thousand $ a month paying someone and tell them "do whatever you want"? Doesnt make sense to me, and i surely hope it is the same for you.. If those teams who contracted (and paid) those players deem that something (GOM's stuffs, in this case) is negatively affecting players' performance in the major leagues, they reserve the right to advice them against it (if not forbid it entirely).. Think back on the Coke vs Pepsi analogy, it is pretty clear. | ||
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lololcat
United States5 Posts
On October 20 2010 00:27 Meriones wrote: Every Kespa team costs 40 million euro or more to run every year. Do you really think that Proleague prize money covers the costs? It isn't even anywhere close. Proleaugue prize poor is basically irrelevant. Teams don't compete for prize money. They complete for the prestige of being no.1. Kespa deliberately loses money every year. That is their goal. They are non-profit. The money goes all to the players who can be professional this way. And I am not taking just about salaries. It costs a lot of money to run a team of 20 professional players. Who do Kespa milk? OGN and MBC? Give me a break. They get to broadcast free stuff using minimal resources to reach a big audience advertisers love? You really think Kespa shouldn't sell broadcasting rights and just give them away for free? MBC and OGN should just get free money while Kespa makes a 500 million euro loss every year? If I were a player on a low wage and Kespa gave away a couple of millions away for free I would be pissed. That's stupid. Learn how this league started, and KeSPA started first. Then try to tell me that MBC and OGN is getting free money with straight face. There are reasons why we hate KeSPA, and those didn't just happen yesterday, KeSPA got what was coming for them a while. If you treat KeSPA as 'necessary evil' and refused to acknowledge that some changes have to be made, you are just one of those zombies who say 'Just let us watch proleague, we don't care it is legal or not'. Hardcore e-sports fans have been criticizing KeSPA for several years. Don't think you Team can just barge into argument supporting KeSPA when you lack both knowledge and reason. | ||
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lololcat
United States5 Posts
On October 20 2010 02:45 Meriones wrote: How can you say that with a straight face? How can you support Blizzard and complain about B teamer salaries? You want to take away 95% of the income of esports and give more to B teamers? B teamers don't get a lot of money for the amount of work they are doing. No kidding. But they aren't there to work and make easy money. They are there to try to become top players. What matters is that what the teams do for their players. Those players are their out of their free will. If they weren't on a team they still would have to practice just as much for just as little money. A team is only a bonus and that's why so many Koreans tried to get on one. No one is really making any money. Except Blizzard indirectly and OGN/MBC a little bit. And the fans and players. Fans get to watch for free and players get team support unimaginable in any other esports industry. You can argue KT, CJ, etc sponsor because it also has benefits. But you surely can't prove that in court. Giving away money doesn't make you rich, even though advertising isn't just charity. But really, you think Blizzard should charge sponsors for giving money because they benefit from it? Where was Blizzard all these years? They never sponsored anything? If those sponsors all get to have free money by giving away money why didn't Blizzard do anything? Ooh wait, they already got free advertising and made 250 million dollars of sales that way. What did Korea ever get back from all that money? Nothing but a stab in the back. You mean that league Kespa authorized but teams didn't want to participate in, for various reasons. And then got a Judas kiss from Blizzard. Kespa authorized Gomtv classic. Estro/SKT/OGN/MBC hurt it. Blizzard killed it. .....seriously are you dumb? Blizzard killed Gomtv classic? HAHA dude just stay silent if you don't know the material. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5500 Posts
On October 20 2010 06:29 lololcat wrote: .....seriously are you dumb? Blizzard killed Gomtv classic? HAHA dude just stay silent if you don't know the material. Your location says "United States" so English is supposedly your native language, yet you're incapable of grasping his metaphor. "Judas kiss from Blizzard" = blizzard teaming up with gomtv/gretech was what antagonized teams other than eSTRO, OGN and MBC, which already had a conflict of interests with gomtv. The reason for that was how blizzard treated KeSPA like dirt in their "negotiations" and their ridiculous demands. It's akin to a person infected with HIV (consciously) infecting someone else. In case you won't understand that one either: blizzard were already at odds with KeSPA and knew teaming up with gretech would bring KeSPA's wrath onto gomtv. | ||
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Meriones
43 Posts
Kespa only decided not to support their league after even the teams that did wanted to play started to get doubts and when Blizzard hijacked gomtv for their war on Korean esports. If you think Kespa should give their players they invested hundreds of millions of dolalrs in for free to a league run by an organization that only starts to run leagues because it is out to destroy them, then you are absurd. Why should Kespa give everything they have to Blizzard? Kespa has always been criticized? What for? Players getting DQed for talking during a match? No one whined about those rules and everyone knew about them. Then when a ref enforces a rule people get mad. People practice 12 hours a day but they don't know how to request a pause? Honestly, if you know the rule is to say 'ppp' and not 'pp' then you actually practice pausing the game. Have a coach randomly pull a monitor chord. No one protested the rules. All teams agreed with them. It's stupid to whine about a rule because you failed to follow it. Yeah, it was lame for the fans, but blame the player too. Afterwards, Kespa actually adjusted the rules so how are they bad? Only thing you can criticize kespa for is free agents. But people here actually criticize Kespa for not starting SC BW leagues in Sweden or in Peru or wherever else. And if you think OGN/MBC should steal/get for free the players IP then you are stupid. Especially if you also think B teamers should get a huge salary raise. Anyway, only stupid people hate Kespa. Kespa isn't some evil organization. It is a body sanctioned by the government in which all parties have seats. Blizzard gave the middle finger to hundreds of millions of SC BW sponsorship money. How can you defend that. Blizzard is the reason Kespa isn't running a professional SC2 league. It is why we have Gretech with many semi-professional players that requires us to pay for a laggy stream. But no, people just worship Gretech because they have English casters. To us oldschool people who already understand the game English commentary wasn't a big plus. Yeah, it helped bring in new people. I'm not saying it didn't. But many of you people only watched Gomtv leagues because you couldn't enjoy the game without English commentary. Ooh and that 6 posts guy is just a troll. Let's all ignore him. Team liquid and OGs just setup a team house with more players than a SC1 team and im sure their overall budget was well under 1 mill. I do understand that housing/ management /logistics costs, but when you are talking about a difference in the millions of dollars, from 1-2 millions on salary to 15 millions in sponsor money, you have to think about exploitation. Maybe running a team without a proper budget is exploitation. It's not like amateur training houses don't exist. But then the players have to pay for their own costs. Maybe they have to pay to be on the team. I think other SC BW amateur houses required you to pay to train with them. If you don't have the budget, where does the money come from? | ||
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Baldey
United States28 Posts
On October 20 2010 06:27 lololcat wrote: Learn how this league started, and KeSPA started first. Then try to tell me that MBC and OGN is getting free money with straight face. There are reasons why we hate KeSPA, and those didn't just happen yesterday, KeSPA got what was coming for them a while. If you treat KeSPA as 'necessary evil' and refused to acknowledge that some changes have to be made, you are just one of those zombies who say 'Just let us watch proleague, we don't care it is legal or not'. Hardcore e-sports fans have been criticizing KeSPA for several years. Don't think you Team can just barge into argument supporting KeSPA when you lack both knowledge and reason. finally someone who knows what they are talking about. now u should feed these nubs some links to legitimate sources so they can stfu about how blizzard killed gom classic cause im too lazy  . | ||
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Baldey
United States28 Posts
On October 20 2010 06:50 Meriones wrote: To us oldschool people who already understand the game English commentary wasn't a big plus. . woah you understand SC2? i shal bow down to you if you teach me your ways. if ur refering to BW, then saying people only liked gom casue they had english comentary is kinda silly. If they are posting in this thread, theyve obvisouly seen more then just gom classic. english comentaries were not that hard to find on youtube. and before you go bashing those too, they may have been bad, but the observing was done by koreans. So watching an english comentary muted was just as good as watching jon747 in korean, unless u know korean. | ||
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Baldey
United States28 Posts
Blizzard is the reason Kespa isn't running a professional SC2 league. It is why we have Gretech with many semi-professional players that requires us to pay for a laggy stream. And i thank blizzard for that. I do not want SC2 run the same way BW was. Besides, i trust SC2 in blizzard's hands more then i trust it in KESPA's . And i would rather pay for a stream honestly. Blizzard is trying to legitimize espots. having enough paying customers helps that goal more then anything. soon with the exposure these games are getting, english streams are gona have american companies sponsoring them, and esports will actually be a legitimate sport. Maybe even ESPN will start broadcasting it. thats farr off in the future if it even happens at all, but having people pay for quality content will get esports there faster. keyword there ofcorse is QUALITY, which the gom streams have not been. But they are improving, we should give them a bit more patience... | ||
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Meriones
43 Posts
The point was many of these people couldn't enjoy watching Korean matches without English commentary. So they started to watch Gomtv. Then when it had to be shut down because of Blizzard they were mad, and had to stop watching. Now with SC2 they are back and raging against Kespa together with some other confused people who are still mad their favorite player (backho) got QDed. And i thank blizzard for that. I do not want SC2 run the same way BW was. Besides, i trust SC2 in blizzard's hands more then i trust it in KESPA's . And i would rather pay for a stream honestly. Blizzard is trying to legitimize espots. having enough paying customers helps that goal more then anything. This is so confusing to me. You want SC2 to be purely amateur/semi-professional again? I don't have any clue what difference you see between how Blizzard runs their league and how Kespa does it. Anyway, have you actually experienced Blizzard run an actual league? They are terrible at running an actual tournament. Blizzard are clueless about esports. They have always been. It is not just that they don't care, which is true. They also are incompetent. Blizzard doesn't want good maps on ladder because those are too hard for beginning players, for example. Not only does that show their true intentions, it also shows their ignorance. Legitimize? So SC BW in NA was legit, but in SK it wasn't? American companies? Haha. I am so confused about everything you say. | ||
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Baldey
United States28 Posts
On October 20 2010 07:08 Meriones wrote: I am not saying the gomtv league was bad. They had Flash, Jaedong, Stork, those are good players and it was fun even though it was easier to win. The point was many of these people couldn't enjoy watching Korean matches without English commentary. So they started to watch Gomtv. Then when it had to be shut down because of Blizzard they were mad, and had to stop watching. Now with SC2 they are back and raging against Kespa together with some other confused people who are still mad their favorite player (backho) got QDed. im not sure where you get ur info sir, and i dont have any links to back myself up either. but last i checked gom classic was shut down by kespa not blizzard. they had flash stork and jaedong till kespa took them away. but theres no reason to argue without concrete evidence. heres the best i got, casue i havent even looked: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=150858 or more specifically: "In the past, there was a case where Gretech's Gom Classic was boycotted. I wonder if this was something done to minimize that kind of damages. It's likely a policy to have their Starcraft 2 league operate safely" and i still dont buy ur "people were sad casue they codulnt watch BW in english anymore" argument. youtube is a lot easier to find then gomtv.net. i think most people started watching BW through youtube and then discovered gom through shutouts from colera and moletrap. | ||
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Baldey
United States28 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=148991 "The negotiations also included things related to the GSL. Regarding the GSL, Gretech has said "If Proleague goes on without any monetary reimbursement, then from our position, we can end up in a position where we're not guaranteed any profits as GSL can be damaged because of the Proleague", adding that "Because KeSPA has boycotted the GomTV Classic in the past, the GSL can be damaged again due to the Proleague schedule". Responding to this, KeSPA has revealed that "Because we have decided to pay a usage fee for the Intellectual property for the Proleague, we have no reason to promote Starcraft 2 or help GomTV. If Gretech is like this, then there isn't any more point of negotiations". | ||
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Baldey
United States28 Posts
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Meriones
43 Posts
Blizzard knew Kespa would do this. Gomtv probably knew it too. It's not like Kespa had any choice. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5500 Posts
On October 20 2010 07:08 Baldey wrote: And i thank blizzard for that. I do not want SC2 run the same way BW was. Besides, i trust SC2 in blizzard's hands more then i trust it in KESPA's . And i would rather pay for a stream honestly. Blizzard is trying to legitimize espots. having enough paying customers helps that goal more then anything. soon with the exposure these games are getting, english streams are gona have american companies sponsoring them, and esports will actually be a legitimate sport. Maybe even ESPN will start broadcasting it. thats farr off in the future if it even happens at all, but having people pay for quality content will get esports there faster. keyword there ofcorse is QUALITY, which the gom streams have not been. But they are improving, we should give them a bit more patience... I don't see how having a bunch of amateur (or semi-professional at best) players delve into prize hunting monthly on an internet stream is legitimizing esports, tbh. ;o As far as I'm concerned, creating professional teams with steady salaries, secondary line-ups and practice partners, with transparent rules as regards becoming a progamer, leagues broadcasted on the TV, and ties with the government is much closer to "legitimizing esports" than blizzard's backwards thinking. ;; So you basically do not want sc2 to be run like BW. You have the games be broadcasted on the TV eventually and be monetized for that, while you're going to watch amateurs compete in a blizzard sanctioned league with their crappy maps until they get tired of the lack of stability and perspectives for the future. Well, I'll gladly stick to BW. You can have your sc2. ;] | ||
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Meriones
43 Posts
If Blizzard succeeds in destroying SC BW we will never see Jaedong play again, I am sure of that. | ||
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Baldey
United States28 Posts
How do you(jaedong) see the future of StarCraft: BroodWar and will you change to StarCraft 2? - I will definitely change to StarCraft II as I feel that StarCraft 2 is having a higher status then StarCraft: Broodwar. We will see more international tournaments in SC2 compared to StarCraft: Broodwar and this will make the change natural for me. I want to build my reputation abroad and reach out to the international audience but when I decide to change game I can not say, it can be today, it can be tomorrow it can be in a couple of years. really, i think people should post sources if they have something to say here... | ||
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