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Estonia4504 Posts
On October 22 2010 22:32 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2010 08:16 mustaju wrote:On October 22 2010 00:11 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 21 2010 08:26 mustaju wrote:On October 21 2010 07:05 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 18 2010 15:13 aimaimaim wrote:
If Gretech wins this, after a year or so, Blizzard can now leave gretech and get money straight from kespa and they can charge more and more until there isn't going to be PL. Think about it, If the rights are "recognized" then any game developer that has its product being used in Televised E-sports can charge big money for it. Making it very hard to organize leagues. Even if the leagues will continue, there will be cost cutting from the organizers until its dead. Both in Korea and in Abroad, because Blizzard is an american company. So they will charge more and more because they are so greedy until PL shuts down? That doesn't make any sense. Especially when they could, ya know, charge a fair price, keep PL running, and keep getting money. + Show Spoiler +That's like Blizzard saying "we have 8 million WoW subscribers now, think how much we could make if we charged $100 a month!". No, that's not how it works, they charge the same $15 a month that every other shitty/failed mmo charges because it's a fair price and the fair price makes them bookoos of money. Except, to keep PL running, it actually probably needs more money invested and not less. As soon as they realise this, they'll be going with a train of thought that SC2 fans bombard the BW forums every day: "What if all of these pros switched to SC2? Wouldn't that be AWESOME?" They have not shown any sign of long term commitment, only short term gain orientation and hopes someone else will do the dirty work for them. Blizzard has shown long term commitment with every game they have developed, and they are investing quite a bit into GSL. What are you wanting them to do? Come out and say "we promise to do this for a really long time"? It's easy to talk shit about Blizzard but you might want to take into consideration that there isn't a single other game developer out there that makes a good competitive, esports quality RTS. Not even close. Listen to what you are saying, you are talking about an entirely different thing. Making and balancing a game (which I'd actually argue they've become progressively worse at) is entirely different from establishing and financing a stable proscene. I have no idea how much is being invested into the GSL, but I severely doubt we're going to be seeing an official "Blizzard Frosties" SC1 team ever. Money demands and control demands from a scene that is already in financial trouble is also not of much assistance to the actual players who are currently afraid for their jobs. As for SC2, Blizzard has shown that control is it's priority at the moment, not a stable proscene. The GSL system is one of bountyhunting, and funding an actual teamleague needs better efforts than shooing 11 potential huge sponsors away from it. What are the signs of long term commitment you've seen? Do you really think the situation that we're currently moving towards is beneficial for both SC1 and SC2? And do you have any other reasoning behind your arguments other than being a fanboy? Running a 12 million player MMO is also entirely different from developing RTS games yet they stepped up to that plate exceptionally well, better than anyone who came before them. Do you have any idea about the amount of extremely efficient infrastructure that requires? My point is that Blizzard as shown time and time again that they offer nothing but high quality products and they also support those products in the long run unlike almost any other game developer so in that regard it doesn't make sense to think of them as "just a game developer". There is no other game developer like them in terms of quality, and there is no other game developer like then in terms of what they are able to invest at the front end, save *maybe* Valve. No I don't think it's good for SC1, but I think it's great for SC2, I don't really think there will be room for both in the long run. What signs of long term commitment have a I seen? Everything they have worked on and released publicly has shown long term commitment unmatched by their competitors. Everything. Does this apply directly to the pro scene? No, but I am not expecting this to be the exception to the way Blizzard has consistently handled it's business, there is no reason to. You think their interest in control is separated from their interest in a pro scene? Without control they have zero incentive to make SC2 esports friendly, and zero reason to support a pro scene. Without control anyone else a can take their work and not pay them a dime for it. Which is what happened in SC1. Why would they want to do that again? Why would they even bother to put effort into making SC2 esports quality (when every other RTS isn't, when SC2 is chastised for being too "classic" because of it) when without control there would be no way for them to be sure they are making money of it? Everything about SC2 shows that they want it to be an esport game, and Blizzard always has supported their products for the long run. Put two and two together. You can say that Blizzard is making a current financial situation even worse and that players are afraid of losing their jobs and that Blizzard is making it worse for them, but the fact is Blizzard is tempting SC1 players to move to SC2 and more and more are doing it. As long is this continues to happen, you're just wrong. The most important things for a pro scene are a quality game, pro players, and fans. They are doing a great job of getting all three of these this early in SC2's lifetime.
Good lord, you are dense.
Say I make a good game. A really good one. Everyone I know wants to play it. Does it automatically mean I can organize a worldwide proscene around it? No. I need a lot more than that. Even a reputation as the best game developer ever won't be enough. Most likely I need a long partnership with several organizations that have money to do it. THESE ARE ENTIRELY DIFFERENT SKILLSETS. The BW proscene did not develop due to Blizzard. Also, repeating an argument that is not relevant does not make your position understandable.
Secondly, ProLeague is a specific event. At first you argued that Blizzard wouldn't just milk Proleague dry. I argued that Blizzard have no interest in keeping Proleague alive and milking an event that does not earn any direct profit will lead to the events death. Thus, giving Blizzard control over the Proleague would be a mistake from the viewpoint that wants it alive. You answered with gibberish which didn't really have much to do with what I said.
You maintained that Blizzard is a good game developer and that Blizzard REALLY wants to make E-sport happen, on that much we can agree.
Unfortunately, this offers no indication of good will towards proleague, especially since you yourself don't see any future for it whatsoever.
After that, you argue thus : What Blizzard does is good for SC2, which makes it justified. As if SC2 didn't have enough players already. This has nothing to do with the original argument, but you forgot the sponsors part in E-sports. Guess what SC2 has as much as WC3 did previously? Sponsors. There are more similarities than you'd like to admit, and WC3 was dwarfed by BW in the long run. While SC2 might destroy BW, does not mean it will ever achieve it's highpoints. Not the way Blizzard is making it happen now.
As for control, let me ask you that. What incentive did they have to make SC2 an E-sport in the first place? Regardless of what you may think, there wasn't ever too much money in the E-sports scene. There probably will never be. While a lot was invested, not a lot came back out.
The companies sponsor it for free advertising, the exact same thing that Blizzard got for it. If not for the advertising, they'd have LOST money. That's why Blizzard sold the licenses to GOM so cheap. That's why their insane demands for control were coupled with a very small amount of money at first. They want to control it so it doesn't interfere with whatever game of the month they try to introduce, making it an unstable environment for long term investments.
You are not arguing what's best for Proleague, you want it dead. I see no point of you posting in this thread other than to incite hatred.
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Google was just a search engine before they started to own everything.
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Estonia4504 Posts
On October 24 2010 04:40 Cloak wrote:
Google was just a search engine before they started to own everything.
Are you actually saying there is a pattern?
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On October 24 2010 10:53 mustaju wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 04:40 Cloak wrote:
Google was just a search engine before they started to own everything. Are you actually saying there is a pattern?
Just saying that corporations can go from one area to another rather successfully, especially if they become the juggernauts of their market. Sony and Valve are probably more apt comparisons.
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On October 23 2010 17:02 mustaju wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2010 22:32 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 22 2010 08:16 mustaju wrote:On October 22 2010 00:11 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 21 2010 08:26 mustaju wrote:On October 21 2010 07:05 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 18 2010 15:13 aimaimaim wrote:
If Gretech wins this, after a year or so, Blizzard can now leave gretech and get money straight from kespa and they can charge more and more until there isn't going to be PL. Think about it, If the rights are "recognized" then any game developer that has its product being used in Televised E-sports can charge big money for it. Making it very hard to organize leagues. Even if the leagues will continue, there will be cost cutting from the organizers until its dead. Both in Korea and in Abroad, because Blizzard is an american company. So they will charge more and more because they are so greedy until PL shuts down? That doesn't make any sense. Especially when they could, ya know, charge a fair price, keep PL running, and keep getting money. + Show Spoiler +That's like Blizzard saying "we have 8 million WoW subscribers now, think how much we could make if we charged $100 a month!". No, that's not how it works, they charge the same $15 a month that every other shitty/failed mmo charges because it's a fair price and the fair price makes them bookoos of money. Except, to keep PL running, it actually probably needs more money invested and not less. As soon as they realise this, they'll be going with a train of thought that SC2 fans bombard the BW forums every day: "What if all of these pros switched to SC2? Wouldn't that be AWESOME?" They have not shown any sign of long term commitment, only short term gain orientation and hopes someone else will do the dirty work for them. Blizzard has shown long term commitment with every game they have developed, and they are investing quite a bit into GSL. What are you wanting them to do? Come out and say "we promise to do this for a really long time"? It's easy to talk shit about Blizzard but you might want to take into consideration that there isn't a single other game developer out there that makes a good competitive, esports quality RTS. Not even close. Listen to what you are saying, you are talking about an entirely different thing. Making and balancing a game (which I'd actually argue they've become progressively worse at) is entirely different from establishing and financing a stable proscene. I have no idea how much is being invested into the GSL, but I severely doubt we're going to be seeing an official "Blizzard Frosties" SC1 team ever. Money demands and control demands from a scene that is already in financial trouble is also not of much assistance to the actual players who are currently afraid for their jobs. As for SC2, Blizzard has shown that control is it's priority at the moment, not a stable proscene. The GSL system is one of bountyhunting, and funding an actual teamleague needs better efforts than shooing 11 potential huge sponsors away from it. What are the signs of long term commitment you've seen? Do you really think the situation that we're currently moving towards is beneficial for both SC1 and SC2? And do you have any other reasoning behind your arguments other than being a fanboy? Running a 12 million player MMO is also entirely different from developing RTS games yet they stepped up to that plate exceptionally well, better than anyone who came before them. Do you have any idea about the amount of extremely efficient infrastructure that requires? My point is that Blizzard as shown time and time again that they offer nothing but high quality products and they also support those products in the long run unlike almost any other game developer so in that regard it doesn't make sense to think of them as "just a game developer". There is no other game developer like them in terms of quality, and there is no other game developer like then in terms of what they are able to invest at the front end, save *maybe* Valve. No I don't think it's good for SC1, but I think it's great for SC2, I don't really think there will be room for both in the long run. What signs of long term commitment have a I seen? Everything they have worked on and released publicly has shown long term commitment unmatched by their competitors. Everything. Does this apply directly to the pro scene? No, but I am not expecting this to be the exception to the way Blizzard has consistently handled it's business, there is no reason to. You think their interest in control is separated from their interest in a pro scene? Without control they have zero incentive to make SC2 esports friendly, and zero reason to support a pro scene. Without control anyone else a can take their work and not pay them a dime for it. Which is what happened in SC1. Why would they want to do that again? Why would they even bother to put effort into making SC2 esports quality (when every other RTS isn't, when SC2 is chastised for being too "classic" because of it) when without control there would be no way for them to be sure they are making money of it? Everything about SC2 shows that they want it to be an esport game, and Blizzard always has supported their products for the long run. Put two and two together. You can say that Blizzard is making a current financial situation even worse and that players are afraid of losing their jobs and that Blizzard is making it worse for them, but the fact is Blizzard is tempting SC1 players to move to SC2 and more and more are doing it. As long is this continues to happen, you're just wrong. The most important things for a pro scene are a quality game, pro players, and fans. They are doing a great job of getting all three of these this early in SC2's lifetime. Good lord, you are dense. Say I make a good game. A really good one. Everyone I know wants to play it. Does it automatically mean I can organize a worldwide proscene around it? No. I need a lot more than that. Even a reputation as the best game developer ever won't be enough. Most likely I need a long partnership with several organizations that have money to do it. THESE ARE ENTIRELY DIFFERENT SKILLSETS. The BW proscene did not develop due to Blizzard. Also, repeating an argument that is not relevant does not make your position understandable. Secondly, ProLeague is a specific event. At first you argued that Blizzard wouldn't just milk Proleague dry. I argued that Blizzard have no interest in keeping Proleague alive and milking an event that does not earn any direct profit will lead to the events death. Thus, giving Blizzard control over the Proleague would be a mistake from the viewpoint that wants it alive. You answered with gibberish which didn't really have much to do with what I said. You maintained that Blizzard is a good game developer and that Blizzard REALLY wants to make E-sport happen, on that much we can agree. Unfortunately, this offers no indication of good will towards proleague, especially since you yourself don't see any future for it whatsoever. After that, you argue thus : What Blizzard does is good for SC2, which makes it justified. As if SC2 didn't have enough players already. This has nothing to do with the original argument, but you forgot the sponsors part in E-sports. Guess what SC2 has as much as WC3 did previously? Sponsors. There are more similarities than you'd like to admit, and WC3 was dwarfed by BW in the long run. While SC2 might destroy BW, does not mean it will ever achieve it's highpoints. Not the way Blizzard is making it happen now. As for control, let me ask you that. What incentive did they have to make SC2 an E-sport in the first place? Regardless of what you may think, there wasn't ever too much money in the E-sports scene. There probably will never be. While a lot was invested, not a lot came back out. The companies sponsor it for free advertising, the exact same thing that Blizzard got for it. If not for the advertising, they'd have LOST money. That's why Blizzard sold the licenses to GOM so cheap. That's why their insane demands for control were coupled with a very small amount of money at first. They want to control it so it doesn't interfere with whatever game of the month they try to introduce, making it an unstable environment for long term investments. You are not arguing what's best for Proleague, you want it dead. I see no point of you posting in this thread other than to incite hatred.
Yes you need more than a good game, if you are pulling in millions a month that goes quite a long way to get those things.
Different skillsets = different employees, problem solved. They have the money to get the best.
Then you talk about it interfering with whatever game of the month when Blizzard doesn't release a new title for 5+ years, and you assume this is the reason they want control...based on what? Without control anyone can run a tournament and not pay them a dime. I don't see how you think it being similar to WC3 is relevant, because the actual game is not similar to WC3 at all, it is similar to BW.
Absolutely nothing you said shows how they are making it an unstable environment in the long term, that is a complete assumption on your part.
It is also an assumption on my part that it will be stable, but that is based on Blizzard's track record of creating a stable environment for every product they have released.
The esports scene may not make much money in your eyes but it sure as hell is making more than it was 15 years ago, and it is continuing to grow. Blizzard wouldn't be investing in it if they didn't want it to grow.
Saying it would lose money without advertisers is like saying the superbowl would lose money without advertisers, unless there is a genuine fear of losing them, it's complete non-sense.
I do not want proleague dead, I want it to evolve into SC2, if that is hateful to you then you have a silly problem with getting riled up by other people's opinions and desires.
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On October 26 2010 00:52 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 10:53 mustaju wrote:On October 24 2010 04:40 Cloak wrote:
Google was just a search engine before they started to own everything. Are you actually saying there is a pattern? Just saying that corporations can go from one area to another rather successfully, especially if they become the juggernauts of their market. Sony and Valve are probably more apt comparisons.
That's what happens when you have enough money to invest heavily on the front end.
Valve is a great example, they used to be just a game developer, a small one in fact. Now they have the biggest and most profitable DD service for PC games.
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Estonia4504 Posts
On October 26 2010 06:15 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2010 17:02 mustaju wrote:On October 22 2010 22:32 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 22 2010 08:16 mustaju wrote:On October 22 2010 00:11 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 21 2010 08:26 mustaju wrote:On October 21 2010 07:05 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 18 2010 15:13 aimaimaim wrote:
If Gretech wins this, after a year or so, Blizzard can now leave gretech and get money straight from kespa and they can charge more and more until there isn't going to be PL. Think about it, If the rights are "recognized" then any game developer that has its product being used in Televised E-sports can charge big money for it. Making it very hard to organize leagues. Even if the leagues will continue, there will be cost cutting from the organizers until its dead. Both in Korea and in Abroad, because Blizzard is an american company. So they will charge more and more because they are so greedy until PL shuts down? That doesn't make any sense. Especially when they could, ya know, charge a fair price, keep PL running, and keep getting money. + Show Spoiler +That's like Blizzard saying "we have 8 million WoW subscribers now, think how much we could make if we charged $100 a month!". No, that's not how it works, they charge the same $15 a month that every other shitty/failed mmo charges because it's a fair price and the fair price makes them bookoos of money. Except, to keep PL running, it actually probably needs more money invested and not less. As soon as they realise this, they'll be going with a train of thought that SC2 fans bombard the BW forums every day: "What if all of these pros switched to SC2? Wouldn't that be AWESOME?" They have not shown any sign of long term commitment, only short term gain orientation and hopes someone else will do the dirty work for them. Blizzard has shown long term commitment with every game they have developed, and they are investing quite a bit into GSL. What are you wanting them to do? Come out and say "we promise to do this for a really long time"? It's easy to talk shit about Blizzard but you might want to take into consideration that there isn't a single other game developer out there that makes a good competitive, esports quality RTS. Not even close. Listen to what you are saying, you are talking about an entirely different thing. Making and balancing a game (which I'd actually argue they've become progressively worse at) is entirely different from establishing and financing a stable proscene. I have no idea how much is being invested into the GSL, but I severely doubt we're going to be seeing an official "Blizzard Frosties" SC1 team ever. Money demands and control demands from a scene that is already in financial trouble is also not of much assistance to the actual players who are currently afraid for their jobs. As for SC2, Blizzard has shown that control is it's priority at the moment, not a stable proscene. The GSL system is one of bountyhunting, and funding an actual teamleague needs better efforts than shooing 11 potential huge sponsors away from it. What are the signs of long term commitment you've seen? Do you really think the situation that we're currently moving towards is beneficial for both SC1 and SC2? And do you have any other reasoning behind your arguments other than being a fanboy? Running a 12 million player MMO is also entirely different from developing RTS games yet they stepped up to that plate exceptionally well, better than anyone who came before them. Do you have any idea about the amount of extremely efficient infrastructure that requires? My point is that Blizzard as shown time and time again that they offer nothing but high quality products and they also support those products in the long run unlike almost any other game developer so in that regard it doesn't make sense to think of them as "just a game developer". There is no other game developer like them in terms of quality, and there is no other game developer like then in terms of what they are able to invest at the front end, save *maybe* Valve. No I don't think it's good for SC1, but I think it's great for SC2, I don't really think there will be room for both in the long run. What signs of long term commitment have a I seen? Everything they have worked on and released publicly has shown long term commitment unmatched by their competitors. Everything. Does this apply directly to the pro scene? No, but I am not expecting this to be the exception to the way Blizzard has consistently handled it's business, there is no reason to. You think their interest in control is separated from their interest in a pro scene? Without control they have zero incentive to make SC2 esports friendly, and zero reason to support a pro scene. Without control anyone else a can take their work and not pay them a dime for it. Which is what happened in SC1. Why would they want to do that again? Why would they even bother to put effort into making SC2 esports quality (when every other RTS isn't, when SC2 is chastised for being too "classic" because of it) when without control there would be no way for them to be sure they are making money of it? Everything about SC2 shows that they want it to be an esport game, and Blizzard always has supported their products for the long run. Put two and two together. You can say that Blizzard is making a current financial situation even worse and that players are afraid of losing their jobs and that Blizzard is making it worse for them, but the fact is Blizzard is tempting SC1 players to move to SC2 and more and more are doing it. As long is this continues to happen, you're just wrong. The most important things for a pro scene are a quality game, pro players, and fans. They are doing a great job of getting all three of these this early in SC2's lifetime. Good lord, you are dense. Say I make a good game. A really good one. Everyone I know wants to play it. Does it automatically mean I can organize a worldwide proscene around it? No. I need a lot more than that. Even a reputation as the best game developer ever won't be enough. Most likely I need a long partnership with several organizations that have money to do it. THESE ARE ENTIRELY DIFFERENT SKILLSETS. The BW proscene did not develop due to Blizzard. Also, repeating an argument that is not relevant does not make your position understandable. Secondly, ProLeague is a specific event. At first you argued that Blizzard wouldn't just milk Proleague dry. I argued that Blizzard have no interest in keeping Proleague alive and milking an event that does not earn any direct profit will lead to the events death. Thus, giving Blizzard control over the Proleague would be a mistake from the viewpoint that wants it alive. You answered with gibberish which didn't really have much to do with what I said. You maintained that Blizzard is a good game developer and that Blizzard REALLY wants to make E-sport happen, on that much we can agree. Unfortunately, this offers no indication of good will towards proleague, especially since you yourself don't see any future for it whatsoever. After that, you argue thus : What Blizzard does is good for SC2, which makes it justified. As if SC2 didn't have enough players already. This has nothing to do with the original argument, but you forgot the sponsors part in E-sports. Guess what SC2 has as much as WC3 did previously? Sponsors. There are more similarities than you'd like to admit, and WC3 was dwarfed by BW in the long run. While SC2 might destroy BW, does not mean it will ever achieve it's highpoints. Not the way Blizzard is making it happen now. As for control, let me ask you that. What incentive did they have to make SC2 an E-sport in the first place? Regardless of what you may think, there wasn't ever too much money in the E-sports scene. There probably will never be. While a lot was invested, not a lot came back out. The companies sponsor it for free advertising, the exact same thing that Blizzard got for it. If not for the advertising, they'd have LOST money. That's why Blizzard sold the licenses to GOM so cheap. That's why their insane demands for control were coupled with a very small amount of money at first. They want to control it so it doesn't interfere with whatever game of the month they try to introduce, making it an unstable environment for long term investments. You are not arguing what's best for Proleague, you want it dead. I see no point of you posting in this thread other than to incite hatred. Yes you need more than a good game, if you are pulling in millions a month that goes quite a long way to get those things. Different skillsets = different employees, problem solved. They have the money to get the best. Then you talk about it interfering with whatever game of the month when Blizzard doesn't release a new title for 5+ years, and you assume this is the reason they want control...based on what? Without control anyone can run a tournament and not pay them a dime. I don't see how you think it being similar to WC3 is relevant, because the actual game is not similar to WC3 at all, it is similar to BW. Absolutely nothing you said shows how they are making it an unstable environment in the long term, that is a complete assumption on your part. It is also an assumption on my part that it will be stable, but that is based on Blizzard's track record of creating a stable environment for every product they have released. The esports scene may not make much money in your eyes but it sure as hell is making more than it was 15 years ago, and it is continuing to grow. Blizzard wouldn't be investing in it if they didn't want it to grow. Saying it would lose money without advertisers is like saying the superbowl would lose money without advertisers, unless there is a genuine fear of losing them, it's complete non-sense. I do not want proleague dead, I want it to evolve into SC2, if that is hateful to you then you have a silly problem with getting riled up by other people's opinions and desires.
Dear treemonkeys, millions a month isn't enough to support such a thing like Proleague. They don't have the money to hire enough people to run Proleague on their own. You are assuming a lot without any real numerical backup. If you've read any of this thread, you'd see estimates of how much it costs to keep a proteam like CJ running in a niche environment such as BW is now in Korea. The cost was 20mil $. Blizzard has invested nothing near that amount in any game yet, let alone that amount times 12 (the number of teams playing in Proleague last year).
Game of the month was exaggerated, I'll admit, but in long term, it will probably be similar evolutions: SC2 into WC4 or possibly even Diablo 3. This is not stable, as having to switch your game every 5+ years is not a stable environment for investments. I used WC3 as an example not because the games are any similar, but because the games professional evolution was similarly overseen by Blizzard and because it failed to become nearly as big, even though the sponsors of BW weren't opposed to that game. WeMade even had a team. WoW arena has become strongly unbalanced since 2009, I've been told, and there is no telling how long Blizzard is willing to invest significant amounts of money into SC2. This isn't cheap - it's anything other than that, and there are no big profits in sight.
Now that we have clarified that, please tell me how much direct profit these firms get in your opinion and what sources they get it from. I'll help - there are no entrance fees to matches and the costs they demand from the broadcasting channels - MBC and OGN are reinvested into BW. The money that GOM would get from the Proleague organizers isn't even going to be invested into BW, it goes to charity, which I doubt will be SC related either. This has nothing to do with my opinion or my eyes, it is a fact that they do not break even - the only source of income I'm aware of is the unknowable amount of PR they get for sponsoring the teams. It would be more relevant to compare the situation in E-sports to a superbowl that was stripped of all of its teamsponsors and a huge first prize, say a billion dollars for grabs, but no salaries. We'll just make them transition to speed-weightlifting, there is lots of potential in that field. But surely after such an incident it could survive on it's own, right? No? I thought so.
The argument for IP control also leaves me baffled. I might be overly pessimistic, but I don't ever see SC2 reaching a state where keeping it an e-sport would ever create any significant profit other than the profits from selling more games due to more exposure. Did you see the fit that was thrown when they wanted to ask 20$ for a previously free stream?
The way the SC2 scene is now it might become a stable scene compared to Blizzard standards of WOW and WC3, but not compared to SC:BW.
And a transition of Proleague into SC2 by suing the sponsors/teams is equal to killing it, then putting a SC2 stamp on it. It'll be an empty shell.
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$20 million really isn't a whole lot for Activision/Blizzard, and they will not be doing it alone. They spent $100 million developing Starcraft 2. So what do you mean by saying they haven't invested anything near $20 million into a game? This is money they spent before selling a single copy, a huge investment, 5 times what you say they have never done. Sounds like you are the one assuming.
http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/news/12513-100-million-usd-spent-for-developing-starcraft-2
You seem to also be discounting advertisement as a valid form of income, but it is everything for sports, esports will have to be no different. What return of investment does a company get for spending millions on a 30 second Superbowl commercial? Nothing at all tangible, it's about creating an image. The more fans you have watching, the more gaming/technology companies will want to be involved to be part of that image, the more advertisers and therefore income they will get.
It's also funny that you keep pointing out that they don't break even, and yet you want to preserve things the way they have been. God forbid Blizzard comes along, maintains control of SC2, and uses it to actually make esports more profitable for everyone involved. So you know, you can actually have professionals getting paid to play instead of competing for prize money.
Did you see all the huge fits about the plethora of changes with SC2 and the new battle.net? Did you see how many copies it sold regardless of this? Internet fits are more often than not meaningless. Yet at the same time Blizzard as been good at bending to the masses when it matters.
Basically because of the massive amount of money and steady income Activision/Blizzard has, they are in a better position that anyone to turn the SC2 pro scene into something much bigger than BW ever was. Because their track record I think they have a strong chance of pulling this off. Based on what you've said I don't think you have any idea how much they are able to invest in this.
Yeah you are being overly pessimistic about IP control and everything else IMO, you don't think it can ever get bigger than BW, you don't think it can become more profitable, you just want things to stay the same and not change, and maybe you just don't like SC2?
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Estonia4504 Posts
On October 27 2010 00:54 Treemonkeys wrote:$20 million really isn't a whole lot for Activision/Blizzard, and they will not be doing it alone. They spent $100 million developing Starcraft 2. So what do you mean by saying they haven't invested anything near $20 million into a game? This is money they spent before selling a single copy, a huge investment, 5 times what you say they have never done. Sounds like you are the one assuming. http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/news/12513-100-million-usd-spent-for-developing-starcraft-2You seem to also be discounting advertisement as a valid form of income, but it is everything for sports, esports will have to be no different. What return of investment does a company get for spending millions on a 30 second Superbowl commercial? Nothing at all tangible, it's about creating an image. The more fans you have watching, the more gaming/technology companies will want to be involved to be part of that image, the more advertisers and therefore income they will get. It's also funny that you keep pointing out that they don't break even, and yet you want to preserve things the way they have been. God forbid Blizzard comes along, maintains control of SC2, and uses it to actually make esports more profitable for everyone involved. So you know, you can actually have professionals getting paid to play instead of competing for prize money. Did you see all the huge fits about the plethora of changes with SC2 and the new battle.net? Did you see how many copies it sold regardless of this? Internet fits are more often than not meaningless. Yet at the same time Blizzard as been good at bending to the masses when it matters. Basically because of the massive amount of money and steady income Activision/Blizzard has, they are in a better position that anyone to turn the SC2 pro scene into something much bigger than BW ever was. Because their track record I think they have a strong chance of pulling this off. Based on what you've said I don't think you have any idea how much they are able to invest in this. Yeah you are being overly pessimistic about IP control and everything else IMO, you don't think it can ever get bigger than BW, you don't think it can become more profitable, you just want things to stay the same and not change, and maybe you just don't like SC2?
Who are they going to do it with? I'm glad you brought up the 100 million estimate, so I can post this:
http://www.gamespot.com/news/6269369.html
Development costs aren't exactly the same as investments, but I digress, WOW has received that amount of money.
I don't discount advertisements as a source of money, I count them as the ONLY source of money for the sponsors. I don't see how Blizzard gets more money by suing the former sponsors who invested heavily into their previous game and usurping a large part of what they built up while Blizzard did little to nothing after releasing the last balance patch. This does NOT help get sponsors, especially in the long term. Do you see a GOM TV sponsored team? Or an Intel sponsored team? Or an Ericsson sponsored team? No? Because no huge investments have yet been made.
I don't know why this might be, so let me venture a guess. The fact that Blizzard is suing the previous sponsors could be one of them. The other reasoning is the scene is not yet ready, because it is unstable as hell. The league sponsors change wildly, and the way things are going now, Blizzard will own their entire decisionmaking process with the money invested. Players, teams, everything. All written in the demands to KeSPA. In the long term, who knows? But this is not a good way to do it, and raises a lot of doubts regarding the scenes overall profitability. WC3 never got properly balanced, for example, BW happens to be only one balanced up to date and this is mostly due to map makers. It sure doesn't help they are constantly patching and that they are going to add new units either. I see no track record to speak of, and no other game except for BW that has become an e-sport, and that was not their doing.
Sure, they can invest millions! For what? Selling more copies of SC2? They'll achieve that through the GSL, no need to invest pointless amounts of money. Advertising? I have no idea why you need more advertising when your game is being played in every major tournament already. Blizzard has no need to sponsor teams or to give them salaries. It isn't very profitable - How many copies of SC2 should be sold during say 5 years (lets count the expansions in) with a development cost of 100 million dollars (unknown number, probably a lot smaller, but it's your line of thought I'm trying to disprove anyway, let's say the expansions are also made for that development cost to be generous.),20*12=240 million dollars a year for team upkeep and direct advertising already costing 30 million?
In total, this would cost 240*5+100 million dollars= 1.3 billion dollars. Lets say the cost of all 3 SC2 games combined is 180$(if the costs are adjusted to being expansion packs, it will be less). This would require 7,38 million games of each of the 3 sold. Currently, the number sold is 3 million of 1/3-d of the product (source: wikipedia). As a comparison, the equivalent number of SC+BW is 4,5 million. This would be required just to break even. It'll probably sell worse if the BW scene is being destroyed by a paper that has the word "Blizzard Entertainment" written on it. Korea still loves BW and it hasn't grown too attached to SC2 just yet. This isn't helping matters.
I also don't understand how my liking or disliking of SC2 matters. Do I like SC2 enough to let it kill off BW before the scene dies a natural death? No. If Blizzard wouldn't meddle, both games would probably do a lot better.
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Estonia4504 Posts
Also, if Blizzard has so much money to throw at the problem, it would probably be wiser to set up a new proleague of their own design anyway, instead of killing off the old one. Make a TV-channel while they are at it - they are a successful game company, so they should clearly be able to make TV-shows not behind the quality of MBC or OGN. Only international this time. GOM TV does not count, it is internet based, instead of transmitting into the telly, it streams and has a pathetic budget.
Why the need to convert Proleague into SC2, I ask again? SC2 proleague by your account has money, players, and an audience.
Blizzard doesn't need control over BW, and if you want both scenes to survive, you'll root for KeSPA in this conflict, as Blizzard can't invest everywhere.
I'll stop posting in this thread, PM me if you want to answer to me personally or post into one of the more active threads to argue your points.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163043
This one should fit the bill.
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EPT
