KeSPA and Gretech will try SC IP rights negotiation once again, but this time, a 3rd party IP rights lawyers will be involved. Due to both sides unable to reconcile their differences, this can be seen as a way to resolve this problem by having a 3rd party member's opinion.
Right now, the worst possible outcome -- lawsuit due to forced Proleague then followed by nullifying the league -- has been avoided. Also, Gretech recently revealed their terms of negotiation through SC2 communities.
In 17th (in Korean time), KeSPA and Gretech decided that in this coming week, they will open a negotiation with IP rights lawyers in attendance.
Prior, Gretech sent KeSPA a certified mail. KeSPA sent a response, but it ended with just confirming both side's position in this matter. So following that, it is decided that just negotiation between both of them will not find an agreement easily. Therefore, they have decided on a 3rd party arbitrator in an attempt to find a solution. The arbitrator -- the IP rights lawyer -- can be seen as the 'referee'. For fairness, the IP rights lawyer will be recommended by Blizzard, and if both sides agree on the choice of the IP rights lawyer, negotiation will start.
In a meanwhile, Gretech revealed what their terms of negotiations were through GSL community forums. It can be seen as a way to pressure KeSPA and to deal with the rumors at the same time.
The terms revealed were: Each tournament fees 1 won, broadcasting fee, 100 million won, contract validity to be 1 year, rights to the broadcasting products to be 50:50, and acknowledging the IP rights.
The way I understand it, this is not a formal arbitration with a binding decision but rather just continued negotiation on modified terms? Even so, it's good to see that PL will mostly likely continue this season uninterrupted.
On October 18 2010 05:05 Selith wrote: The arbitrator -- the IP rights lawyer -- can be seen as the 'referee'. For fairness, the IP rights lawyer will be recommended by Blizzard, and if both sides agree on the choice of the IP rights lawyer, negotiation will start.
KeSPa wants something from Gretech/Blizzard. Blizzard recommends the IP lawyer. KeSPa can accept or not. The lawyer will be some kind of referee in the negotiations. How is that unfair ?
It's likely the lawyer recommended will not be a Blizzard in-house lawyer, but one from an outside firm and that specializes in arbitration. The lawyer has to think about his (and his firm's) reputation when acting as a referee. He's probably not going to try to corrupt the process unless he really wants to commit professional suicide.
The very idea of having a referee/arbitrator is that he should be impartial. The sentence about Blizz 'recommending' one sounds really weird. It seems like instad of not coming to an agreement about the subject matter, now they may very well become split about the 3rd side lawyer. Good thing there is an attempt at negotiating though, it looks like neither side really wants to bring this to court.
For fairness, the IP rights lawyer will be recommended by Blizzard, and if both sides agree on the choice of the IP rights lawyer, negotiation will start.
How is that fairness ? As far as i remember Blizzard demanded ownership over leagues , broadcasts , and teams . Something that they haven't lifted a fingure to establish ... They'll probably recommend an Activision lawyer ... but seriously they should be negotioting about how much royalties Kespa has to pay Gretech for 1 year or 1 season of proleague ... Anything else like demanding ownerships over something or that proleague has to be moved to a different time spot should be out of the question really .
well kespa has to "agree" so if that is what it says it is then it should be fairish since kespa just says no unless they think they're not getting the short end.
It's probably very likely, since Blizzard has to go "Hey, I recommend so-and-so", then KeSPA will probably launch a very thorough background check on this guy, then say yes or no.
this is a positive development of course. at least better than nothing. And this shows that Gretech is showing goodwill and does not want to kill bw outright ( yes they can also be pretending to drag this out so as not to antagonize the korean bw fans but lets think positive).
I am glad that Kespa is not so stubborn to recognize that there is a law for everything and they can't cling to the "they are just a foreign company therefore they can't win in korea" mentality
I am curious if they will adhere to the IP rights lawyer decision no matter what like how countries do it if they want to settle a dispute via International Courts of Justice ( meaning they have to accept the decision no matter what). Otherwise , I don't see any party being happy if the recommmendation does not favor them.
I have to laugh at the guys always trying to find something "evil" about Blizzard/Gretech. Where do you think more IP disputes are challenged? Korea or the motherland of law suits United States? People can get their panties in a bunch all they want but, the mere fact that Blizzard/Gretech aren't suing Kespa into the ground and trying again should signal that they don't want Proleague to "go away". Yes Blizzard still wants money since Kespa is still using their product but, the demolition of SC:BW is now firmly in Kespa's hands not Blizzard's.
Glad to knwo they're giving it another go. And look at the lawyer situation this way...if they cant agree on the 3rd party this will drag a little bit more and PL will continue.
And the fact that PL started without the agreement and gretech is still willing to negotiate is a good thing.
On October 18 2010 05:38 Hrrrrm wrote: I have to laugh at the guys always trying to find something "evil" about Blizzard/Gretech. Where do you think more IP disputes are challenged? Korea or the motherland of law suits United States? People can get their panties in a bunch all they want but, the mere fact that Blizzard/Gretech aren't suing Kespa into the ground and trying again should signal that they don't want Proleague to "go away". Yes Blizzard still wants money since Kespa is still using their product but, the demolition of SC:BW is now firmly in Kespa's hands not Blizzard's.
On October 18 2010 05:08 AyJay wrote: I think gretech not wanting to shut down proleague means something
Flame me on.
I won't flame you, but as others have pointed out, these negotiations won't be fair from the get go as Blizzard gets to pick the lawyer. Sure, KeSPA can say no to their choice but then Gretech/Blizzard can claim that KeSPA is just trying to be uncooperative.
I think Gretech knows exactly what it's doing right here, trying to put KeSPA in a bad light or else make an easy 100 million won per year simply because Blizzard decided that Gretech > KeSPA. It's a win/win for Gretech and a lose/lose for KeSPA...
On October 18 2010 05:08 AyJay wrote: I think gretech not wanting to shut down proleague means something
Flame me on.
I won't flame you, but as others have pointed out, these negotiations won't be fair from the get go as Blizzard gets to pick the lawyer. Sure, KeSPA can say no to their choice but then Gretech/Blizzard can claim that KeSPA is just trying to be uncooperative.
I think Gretech knows exactly what it's doing right here, trying to put KeSPA in a bad light or else make an easy 100 million won per year simply because Blizzard decided that Gretech > KeSPA. It's a win/win for Gretech and a lose/lose for KeSPA...
Personally, I think that argument attacks itself a bit, as it's based on assumptions of bad faith on one side's part. It's easy to paint people as right and wrong when you assume every intention of theirs is wrong.
On October 18 2010 05:14 MetalSlug wrote: KeSPa wants something from Gretech/Blizzard. Blizzard recommends the IP lawyer. KeSPa can accept or not. The lawyer will be some kind of referee in the negotiations. How is that unfair ?
This.
FFS people just want to find something in every news post on this subject to hate on Blizzard/Gretech It's really becoming completely ridiculous. Be happy Gretech is willing to re-attempt negotiations after KeSPA spit in their faces and started the proleague without actually coming to an agreement in the first place.
On October 18 2010 05:08 AyJay wrote: I think gretech not wanting to shut down proleague means something
Flame me on.
I won't flame you, but as others have pointed out, these negotiations won't be fair from the get go as Blizzard gets to pick the lawyer. Sure, KeSPA can say no to their choice but then Gretech/Blizzard can claim that KeSPA is just trying to be uncooperative.
I think Gretech knows exactly what it's doing right here, trying to put KeSPA in a bad light or else make an easy 100 million won per year simply because Blizzard decided that Gretech > KeSPA. It's a win/win for Gretech and a lose/lose for KeSPA...
Personally, I think that argument attacks itself a bit, as it's based on assumptions of bad faith on one side's part. It's easy to paint people as right and wrong when you assume every intention of theirs is wrong.
Gretech was pretty clear with their intentions when they wanted to force kespa off of the same time slots, so it's hard to believe they want to operate in good faith.
On October 18 2010 05:08 AyJay wrote: I think gretech not wanting to shut down proleague means something
Flame me on.
I won't flame you, but as others have pointed out, these negotiations won't be fair from the get go as Blizzard gets to pick the lawyer. Sure, KeSPA can say no to their choice but then Gretech/Blizzard can claim that KeSPA is just trying to be uncooperative.
I think Gretech knows exactly what it's doing right here, trying to put KeSPA in a bad light or else make an easy 100 million won per year simply because Blizzard decided that Gretech > KeSPA. It's a win/win for Gretech and a lose/lose for KeSPA...
Personally, I think that argument attacks itself a bit, as it's based on assumptions of bad faith on one side's part. It's easy to paint people as right and wrong when you assume every intention of theirs is wrong.
Gretech was pretty clear with their intentions when they wanted to force kespa off of the same time slots, so it's hard to believe they want to operate in good faith.
Ehhh. Not really. That's far and away gretech looking out for it's own base interests. Lack of raw altruism != bad faith.
The lawyer could be discredited and pretty much ruin his career for being biased in a situation that requires him to be neutral. I think the idea that it's unfair is just an invalid excuse for anti-Blizzard people to keep on shit talking. Basically this:
On October 18 2010 05:19 Slow Motion wrote: It's likely the lawyer recommended will not be a Blizzard in-house lawyer, but one from an outside firm and that specializes in arbitration. The lawyer has to think about his (and his firm's) reputation when acting as a referee. He's probably not going to try to corrupt the process unless he really wants to commit professional suicide.
On October 18 2010 05:08 AyJay wrote: I think gretech not wanting to shut down proleague means something
Flame me on.
I won't flame you, but as others have pointed out, these negotiations won't be fair from the get go as Blizzard gets to pick the lawyer. Sure, KeSPA can say no to their choice but then Gretech/Blizzard can claim that KeSPA is just trying to be uncooperative.
I think Gretech knows exactly what it's doing right here, trying to put KeSPA in a bad light or else make an easy 100 million won per year simply because Blizzard decided that Gretech > KeSPA. It's a win/win for Gretech and a lose/lose for KeSPA...
Personally, I think that argument attacks itself a bit, as it's based on assumptions of bad faith on one side's part. It's easy to paint people as right and wrong when you assume every intention of theirs is wrong.
Gretech was pretty clear with their intentions when they wanted to force kespa off of the same time slots, so it's hard to believe they want to operate in good faith.
Ehhh. Not really. That's far and away gretech looking out for it's own base interests. Lack of raw altruism != bad faith.
Yea sort of like how gretech throwing out terms, and then kespa agreeing to them, and then gretech altering those terms after kespa agreed so that kespa can't possibly agree is in good faith right?
On October 18 2010 07:05 xBillehx wrote: The lawyer could be discredited and pretty much ruin his career for being biased in a situation that requires him to be neutral. I think the idea that it's unfair is just an invalid excuse for anti-Blizzard people to keep on shit talking. Basically this:
On October 18 2010 05:19 Slow Motion wrote: It's likely the lawyer recommended will not be a Blizzard in-house lawyer, but one from an outside firm and that specializes in arbitration. The lawyer has to think about his (and his firm's) reputation when acting as a referee. He's probably not going to try to corrupt the process unless he really wants to commit professional suicide.
When there is no closely related law and no precedent on this issue, neutral stand can go either direction with enough excuses, which will only work better for lawyer's career with his own choice of direction.
The arbitrator -- the IP rights lawyer -- can be seen as the 'referee'. For fairness, the IP rights lawyer will be recommended by Blizzard, and if both sides agree on the choice of the IP rights lawyer, negotiation will start.
The lawyer will just be an arbiter to answer IP right questions during the negotiations. It is being recommended by blizzard, because they probably need a lawyer that had prior access to blizzard's IP documents and has already read up on the case. It would be too time consuming to get a fresh lawyer to learn the case from scratch.
On October 18 2010 09:11 StarStruck wrote: The arbitrator -- the IP rights lawyer -- can be seen as the 'referee'. For fairness, the IP rights lawyer will be recommended by Blizzard, and if both sides agree on the choice of the IP rights lawyer, negotiation will start.
Let's keep going in circles.
it's similar to the classic method of dividing something fairly (although the analogy isn't precise.) Party A splits the disputed items into two groups and Party B gets to choose which one they prefer and take it.
I think people are reading way too much into that one line. tbh it's pretty obvious Blizzard's not going to go 'oh here's our lawyer, he's completely impartial nudge nudge wink wink'. I assume Kespa is made of adults, they're not complete idiots lol. Probably Blizzard will just pick a firm that's well-known, Kespa sees that it has a good reputation, they go on. You guys are acting like this is some sort of mafia negotiation.
On October 18 2010 05:27 Selith wrote: It's probably very likely, since Blizzard has to go "Hey, I recommend so-and-so", then KeSPA will probably launch a very thorough background check on this guy, then say yes or no.
Doesn't seem like KeSPA is that legally adept. Their actions up to now have been tantrum-level.
On October 18 2010 09:11 StarStruck wrote: The arbitrator -- the IP rights lawyer -- can be seen as the 'referee'. For fairness, the IP rights lawyer will be recommended by Blizzard, and if both sides agree on the choice of the IP rights lawyer, negotiation will start.
Let's keep going in circles.
it's similar to the classic method of dividing something fairly (although the analogy isn't precise.) Party A splits the disputed items into two groups and Party B gets to choose which one they prefer and take it.
That's how I felt it was.
But then I don't know much about law, so who knows.
This is mostly speculation on this particular situation based on how the arbitration process typically works, so it's possible this won't apply. Take it with a grain of salt.
What typically happens is a third party lawyer is either assigned or agreed upon by both parties to be the arbitrator. This will not (likely) be an in-house lawyer for blizzard or activision.These are typically professionals who do arbitration for a living and who publish their decisions in order for parties to determine whether or not they are being fair. Unless they're just being jackasses, Blizzard is not going to pick someone who is obviously biased for their side, for no other reason than KeSPA will easily notice this and refuse to agree to submit to the arbitrator.
There is also different types of arbitration. There is arbitration in which the arbitrator's decision is legally binding, no matter if the parties agree with it (this is done by both parties beforehand agreeing to this or by the arbitrator being given that power by the courts). Or, the arbitrator simply offers a possible solution and the parties still have to agree to do it. While that might seem dumb, because it doesn't solve the problem outright, it's great for whichever side it benefits most, because they can argue their position is the "fair" one.
It's a step in the right direction, but as people have noted, it can take a long time for two sides to even agree on an arbitrator. We'll have to see what happens.
Credentials- I'm a law student who studied communication and negotiation in undergrad. You can PM me if you have any questions or just wanna tell me how I'm wrong :p
On October 18 2010 05:14 MetalSlug wrote: KeSPa wants something from Gretech/Blizzard. Blizzard recommends the IP lawyer. KeSPa can accept or not. The lawyer will be some kind of referee in the negotiations. How is that unfair ?
On the other hand,
what if KeSPA actually doesn't have issue with Blizzard but with Gretech? That's why KeSPA is fine with this term.
Do correct me if I'm wrong, but the idea of getting 1 won / 100 mils won from IP is coming from Gretech and not Blizzard ... ?
On October 18 2010 11:23 Crisium wrote: Our hope is kept alive. This is good.
But MSL hope is pointless, right?
Yes, Gretech already killed off the MSL despite their PR about furthering esports. I doubt these negotiations will get anywhere, it's not about the money (which kespa is willing to pay) but about control/oversight which neither side seems willing to back down on.
On October 18 2010 05:05 Selith wrote: The arbitrator -- the IP rights lawyer -- can be seen as the 'referee'. For fairness, the IP rights lawyer will be recommended by Blizzard, and if both sides agree on the choice of the IP rights lawyer, negotiation will start.
i don't understand how this is going to be fair
Blizzard wants the most money/success for their games, theoretically.
The terms revealed were: Each tournament fees 1 won, broadcasting fee, 100 million won, contract validity to be 1 year, rights to the broadcasting products to be 50:50, and acknowledging the IP rights.
So they pay for the rights to broadcast but Gretech gets to decide on what's on 50% of the adverts as well?
Wtf? How much money does Gretech really want?
So on top of 50% of control over what's advertised they want 100mil won for EVERY league..Has anyone done the numbers?
Does this include things like heritage league and STX masters cups and such? Does it include allstar matches?
If it does then it really adds up..like 100mil*(3*OSL + 3*MSL + 3*Proleague + STX Masters + Allstar) = over a billion won in a year...
...but then Gretech can jack the price again because it has to be renegotiated every year.
hmm
I think, they should go to court...This 3rd party business "selected by blizzard lol" sounds like a farce.
Prior, Gretech sent KeSPA a certified mail. KeSPA sent a response, but it ended with just confirming both side's position in this matter. So following that, it is decided that just negotiation between both of them will not find an agreement easily. Therefore, they have decided on a 3rd party arbitrator in an attempt to find a solution. The arbitrator -- the IP rights lawyer -- can be seen as the 'referee'. For fairness, the IP rights lawyer will be recommended by Blizzard, and if both sides agree on the choice of the IP rights lawyer, negotiation will start.
as long as it's not a kespa referee this can work out in BW's favor.
On October 18 2010 05:05 Selith wrote: The arbitrator -- the IP rights lawyer -- can be seen as the 'referee'. For fairness, the IP rights lawyer will be recommended by Blizzard, and if both sides agree on the choice of the IP rights lawyer, negotiation will start.
i don't understand how this is going to be fair
Blizzard wants the most money/success for their games, theoretically.
I think it's fair enough.
I think you need to read further a little bit further. If Kespa does not feel that the lawyer, whom Blizzard recommended, will provide a fair viewpoint, then they can object and Blizzard have to choose a new 'referee' until Kespa is also satisfied.
The same go in reverse, Kespa could recommend the lawyer and Blizzard have to agree with Kespa too.
I don't think people realize that right now its not about the money but about recognizing the IP rights of the game developer.
The way I see it:
If Gretech wins this, after a year or so, Blizzard can now leave gretech and get money straight from kespa and they can charge more and more until there isn't going to be PL. Think about it, If the rights are "recognized" then any game developer that has its product being used in Televised E-sports can charge big money for it. Making it very hard to organize leagues. Even if the leagues will continue, there will be cost cutting from the organizers until its dead. Both in Korea and in Abroad, because Blizzard is an american company.
what im saying that if gretech wins, it will be hard to have organized televised e-sports around the world.
If Kespa wins, then its all back to normal with steady progression. Outside korea, there are tons of SC2 tournaments. And with luck, foreign companies outside korea can have an impression that e-sports is a great way to advertise their products using SC2 tournaments to appeal to young adults! and maybe, just maybe, they may even create their own leagues! i mean seriously Coca Cola, an Air Liner supported by its Country (Korean Air), Gilette, Pringles, Shinhan Bank. All of these were companies were at one time or are still supporting, sponsoring leagues for games. and the current team in proleague doesn't have puny sponsor (not anymore)
also about people saying about "blizzard must get payed because its their product blah blah blah". No shit! kespa did a favor for them in BW. what im trying to say is that if blizzard isn't gonna get payed, its not like they are in the most losing end of the stick, their titles are being advertised every time flash drink his pocari sweat while raping jaedong using one hand. and about them being a being money whores because they are a company like every other company, who gives a shit? its not like anyone here has any stakes in blizzard if they lose money, but if you really think about it, they aren't LOSING MONEY.
people tend to think that this is just about SC2 and BW and about these two titles being the better game. Who the fuck cares? if blizzard wins, and kespa loses then there wont be leagues, and all you will see are a bunch of amateurs with a handful of gosus duking it out for a prize money that can amount to the salary they could get from a sponsored team if they are good enough.
Why isn't this negotiation done when both sides have their own lawyers? 3rd party lawyers is so fishy.
Are you suggesting that throughout all the negotiations no one brought their own lawyers? This has nothing to do with adding lawyers to a negotiation, it's about adding a hopefully impartial third party lawyer. In this case Blizzard will be looking for a highly competent IP rights lawyer with previous case experience. Since they do own the rights to their own games, and their terms are generous in excess only a complete muppet would allow the negotiations to not favour blizzard.
It's worth noting that until a few days ago Blizzard and Gretech had been respecting a non-disclosure agreement that must clearly have been voided by the constant remarks from Kespa leaks and direct statements, that have served rather well for Kespa in making the BW scene somewhat hostile towards Blizzard/Gretech.
What better way to save Brood War than with an arbiter?
Why isn't this negotiation done when both sides have their own lawyers? 3rd party lawyers is so fishy.
Are you suggesting that throughout all the negotiations no one brought their own lawyers? This has nothing to do with adding lawyers to a negotiation, it's about adding a hopefully impartial third party lawyer. In this case Blizzard will be looking for a highly competent IP rights lawyer with previous case experience. Since they do own the rights to their own games, and their terms are generous in excess only a complete muppet would allow the negotiations to not favour blizzard.
It's worth noting that until a few days ago Blizzard and Gretech had been respecting a non-disclosure agreement that must clearly have been voided by the constant remarks from Kespa leaks and direct statements, that have served rather well for Kespa in making the BW scene somewhat hostile towards Blizzard/Gretech.
What better way to save Brood War than with an arbiter?
Seems feasible seeing as how all the negotiations cosisted of were angry flame mail at each other lulz..
for those saying it's unfair for blizzard to determine the IP rights lawyer, remember that it is KesPA who is performing the illegal actions here. The IP belongs to blizzard, that is already a fact, that is not something we have yet to determine. Starcraft belongs to blizzard. KesPA are the ones earning money off of blizzards product without properly respecting their IP rights.
Blizzard is not in the wrong to request the lawyer, it is their position to do so.
On October 18 2010 16:22 Nu11 wrote: for those saying it's unfair for blizzard to determine the IP rights lawyer, remember that it is KesPA who is performing the illegal actions here. The IP belongs to blizzard, that is already a fact, that is not something we have yet to determine. Starcraft belongs to blizzard. KesPA are the ones earning money off of blizzards product without properly respecting their IP rights.
Blizzard is not in the wrong to request the lawyer, it is their position to do so.
How many times does this have to be explained.
Kespa is not for profit, the money they charged for the first time in 2007 was to be put back into the leagues. I repeat, they are a NOT FOR PROFIT organisation, theres no dividends to shareholders here.
Also, you are under the assumption they are doign something illegal. Whats illegal? They offered to pay for licensing a long long time ago. It was the other terms that they didn't want to agree to. Blizzard wanted total control over all the leagues, they even went as far as to demand that all pro gamers sign with Blizzard in a contract that can override Kespa's contract.
Kespa builds a league untouched by blizzard until 2007 and then blizzard comes in and tries to capitalize on their hard work. Yes kespa should pay for licensing which they showed willingness for ages ago. Blizzard wanted total control over the leagues and the broadcasting.
"properly respecting ip rights" - this doesn't define how far it should go. Everyone knows they should pay a licensing fee, but does blizzard own every video, every league, every team automatically? hell no, they had no right coming in after almost a decade and deciding that they own the whole lot.
On October 18 2010 15:13 aimaimaim wrote: I don't think people realize that right now its not about the money but about recognizing the IP rights of the game developer.
The way I see it:
If Gretech wins this, after a year or so, Blizzard can now leave gretech and get money straight from kespa and they can charge more and more until there isn't going to be PL. Think about it, If the rights are "recognized" then any game developer that has its product being used in Televised E-sports can charge big money for it. Making it very hard to organize leagues. Even if the leagues will continue, there will be cost cutting from the organizers until its dead. Both in Korea and in Abroad, because Blizzard is an american company.
what im saying that if gretech wins, it will be hard to have organized televised e-sports around the world.
If Kespa wins, then its all back to normal with steady progression. Outside korea, there are tons of SC2 tournaments. And with luck, foreign companies outside korea can have an impression that e-sports is a great way to advertise their products using SC2 tournaments to appeal to young adults! and maybe, just maybe, they may even create their own leagues! i mean seriously Coca Cola, an Air Liner supported by its Country (Korean Air), Gilette, Pringles, Shinhan Bank. All of these were companies were at one time or are still supporting, sponsoring leagues for games. and the current team in proleague doesn't have puny sponsor (not anymore)
also about people saying about "blizzard must get payed because its their product blah blah blah". No shit! kespa did a favor for them in BW. what im trying to say is that if blizzard isn't gonna get payed, its not like they are in the most losing end of the stick, their titles are being advertised every time flash drink his pocari sweat while raping jaedong using one hand. and about them being a being money whores because they are a company like every other company, who gives a shit? its not like anyone here has any stakes in blizzard if they lose money, but if you really think about it, they aren't LOSING MONEY.
people tend to think that this is just about SC2 and BW and about these two titles being the better game. Who the fuck cares? if blizzard wins, and kespa loses then there wont be leagues, and all you will see are a bunch of amateurs with a handful of gosus duking it out for a prize money that can amount to the salary they could get from a sponsored team if they are good enough.
I agree with most of your points that it could go in that direction. But like you said Blizzard wants to earn the most money. So they need an E-Sports scene going on. If they kill the TV leagues then there won't be big money for them each tournament. So in that sense they can up the fees high but it will be less profit for them on the long term and profit is what they want so in other words if there's 1 thing they don't want then that is to make sure the Korean E-Sports scene is alive since that will make them most money on the long term.
100,000,000 South Korean won = 89,373.5000 US dollars Doesn't look that bad, one 30 sec ad spot in a month should pay for that easily? (total guess, idk)
On October 18 2010 16:22 Nu11 wrote: for those saying it's unfair for blizzard to determine the IP rights lawyer, remember that it is KesPA who is performing the illegal actions here. The IP belongs to blizzard, that is already a fact, that is not something we have yet to determine. Starcraft belongs to blizzard. KesPA are the ones earning money off of blizzards product without properly respecting their IP rights.
Blizzard is not in the wrong to request the lawyer, it is their position to do so.
Question. Does Blizzard own Proleague MSL OSL? The teams? The players?
On October 18 2010 16:22 Nu11 wrote: for those saying it's unfair for blizzard to determine the IP rights lawyer, remember that it is KesPA who is performing the illegal actions here. The IP belongs to blizzard, that is already a fact, that is not something we have yet to determine. Starcraft belongs to blizzard. KesPA are the ones earning money off of blizzards product without properly respecting their IP rights.
Blizzard is not in the wrong to request the lawyer, it is their position to do so.
Question. Does Blizzard own Proleague MSL OSL? The teams? The players?
Yes?No?
There is a lot YET TO BE DETERMINED.
Honest question : How much influence does Blizzard have on paper over say, the MLG, or the future SC2 teams, or players?
On October 18 2010 16:22 Nu11 wrote: for those saying it's unfair for blizzard to determine the IP rights lawyer, remember that it is KesPA who is performing the illegal actions here. The IP belongs to blizzard, that is already a fact, that is not something we have yet to determine. Starcraft belongs to blizzard. KesPA are the ones earning money off of blizzards product without properly respecting their IP rights.
Blizzard is not in the wrong to request the lawyer, it is their position to do so.
Question. Does Blizzard own Proleague MSL OSL? The teams? The players?
Yes?No?
There is a lot YET TO BE DETERMINED.
Honest question : How much influence does Blizzard have on paper over say, the MLG, or the future SC2 teams, or players?
I think these whole pro blizz pro kespa arguments boil down to Blizzard supporters not clearly stating how much control they think blizzard should have over kespa's entire operation. - this and being horribly misinformed about kespa making "huge profits" (of which they make no profit, you know, them being a non profit organisation and all...)
And kespa supporters really aren't explaining how much freedom Kespa should have.
But the facts are this:
Kespa should and was willing to pay licensing for broadcasting the game.
Kespa had a bitch fit over blizzards numerous demands that are not "determined as under IP rights" such as control over the proleague, control over pro gamer licenses (which kespa invented), control over every aspect of the esports organisation they had no hand in building.
Yes I'm a bit biased towards Kespa but I dont think I'm skimping on the facts here. Its multifaceted, Kespa should pay for licensing, but thats never been the issue here, Blizzard wants control, and not all of it is warranted.
On October 18 2010 16:22 Nu11 wrote: for those saying it's unfair for blizzard to determine the IP rights lawyer, remember that it is KesPA who is performing the illegal actions here. The IP belongs to blizzard, that is already a fact, that is not something we have yet to determine. Starcraft belongs to blizzard. KesPA are the ones earning money off of blizzards product without properly respecting their IP rights.
Blizzard is not in the wrong to request the lawyer, it is their position to do so.
Question. Does Blizzard own Proleague MSL OSL? The teams? The players?
Yes?No?
There is a lot YET TO BE DETERMINED.
Honest question : How much influence does Blizzard have on paper over say, the MLG, or the future SC2 teams, or players?
I don't know. Absolutely none if they want SC2 to flourish as an eSport.
On October 18 2010 15:13 aimaimaim wrote: I don't think people realize that right now its not about the money but about recognizing the IP rights of the game developer.
The way I see it:
If Gretech wins this, after a year or so, Blizzard can now leave gretech and get money straight from kespa and they can charge more and more until there isn't going to be PL. Think about it, If the rights are "recognized" then any game developer that has its product being used in Televised E-sports can charge big money for it. Making it very hard to organize leagues. Even if the leagues will continue, there will be cost cutting from the organizers until its dead. Both in Korea and in Abroad, because Blizzard is an american company.
what im saying that if gretech wins, it will be hard to have organized televised e-sports around the world.
If Kespa wins, then its all back to normal with steady progression. Outside korea, there are tons of SC2 tournaments. And with luck, foreign companies outside korea can have an impression that e-sports is a great way to advertise their products using SC2 tournaments to appeal to young adults! and maybe, just maybe, they may even create their own leagues! i mean seriously Coca Cola, an Air Liner supported by its Country (Korean Air), Gilette, Pringles, Shinhan Bank. All of these were companies were at one time or are still supporting, sponsoring leagues for games. and the current team in proleague doesn't have puny sponsor (not anymore)
also about people saying about "blizzard must get payed because its their product blah blah blah". No shit! kespa did a favor for them in BW. what im trying to say is that if blizzard isn't gonna get payed, its not like they are in the most losing end of the stick, their titles are being advertised every time flash drink his pocari sweat while raping jaedong using one hand. and about them being a being money whores because they are a company like every other company, who gives a shit? its not like anyone here has any stakes in blizzard if they lose money, but if you really think about it, they aren't LOSING MONEY.
people tend to think that this is just about SC2 and BW and about these two titles being the better game. Who the fuck cares? if blizzard wins, and kespa loses then there wont be leagues, and all you will see are a bunch of amateurs with a handful of gosus duking it out for a prize money that can amount to the salary they could get from a sponsored team if they are good enough.
I agree with most of your points that it could go in that direction. But like you said Blizzard wants to earn the most money. So they need an E-Sports scene going on. If they kill the TV leagues then there won't be big money for them each tournament. So in that sense they can up the fees high but it will be less profit for them on the long term and profit is what they want so in other words if there's 1 thing they don't want then that is to make sure the Korean E-Sports scene is alive since that will make them most money on the long term.
I dont think Blizzard wants to make an e-sport scene .. think of the maps they made in SC2, then think of the hate they get from good players, now think of the replies they give us.
"We want the maps to be beginner friendly"
IMO, thats not a phrase a good company would say that wants high-level competitive gaming.
what im trying to say is that Blizzard can live without televised games. people will still buy their games. they can still have lots and lots of money. Fee for Broadcasting Rights, on the other hand, is like an expensive wine to them, they dont need it, but the effects it gives them ($$$), they want it so bad. but they dont need it.
On October 18 2010 16:22 Nu11 wrote: for those saying it's unfair for blizzard to determine the IP rights lawyer, remember that it is KesPA who is performing the illegal actions here. The IP belongs to blizzard, that is already a fact, that is not something we have yet to determine. Starcraft belongs to blizzard. KesPA are the ones earning money off of blizzards product without properly respecting their IP rights.
Blizzard is not in the wrong to request the lawyer, it is their position to do so.
3 things where you are wrong
1. No, its not fair. The Korean Gov't should have recommended the arbitrary since the companies involved are Korean companies and are in Korean Land. Blizzard already Gave the broadcasting rights to Gretech. 2. No, kespa does't earn money. How many times do people get this wrong. its been more than 6 months and still people get it wrong. 3. Blizzard made money out of Kespa's action and because of Televised games, they sold more than 5 Million copies in Korea alone.
On October 18 2010 15:13 aimaimaim wrote: I don't think people realize that right now its not about the money but about recognizing the IP rights of the game developer.
The way I see it:
If Gretech wins this, after a year or so, Blizzard can now leave gretech and get money straight from kespa and they can charge more and more until there isn't going to be PL. Think about it, If the rights are "recognized" then any game developer that has its product being used in Televised E-sports can charge big money for it. Making it very hard to organize leagues. Even if the leagues will continue, there will be cost cutting from the organizers until its dead. Both in Korea and in Abroad, because Blizzard is an american company.
what im saying that if gretech wins, it will be hard to have organized televised e-sports around the world.
If Kespa wins, then its all back to normal with steady progression. Outside korea, there are tons of SC2 tournaments. And with luck, foreign companies outside korea can have an impression that e-sports is a great way to advertise their products using SC2 tournaments to appeal to young adults! and maybe, just maybe, they may even create their own leagues! i mean seriously Coca Cola, an Air Liner supported by its Country (Korean Air), Gilette, Pringles, Shinhan Bank. All of these were companies were at one time or are still supporting, sponsoring leagues for games. and the current team in proleague doesn't have puny sponsor (not anymore)
also about people saying about "blizzard must get payed because its their product blah blah blah". No shit! kespa did a favor for them in BW. what im trying to say is that if blizzard isn't gonna get payed, its not like they are in the most losing end of the stick, their titles are being advertised every time flash drink his pocari sweat while raping jaedong using one hand. and about them being a being money whores because they are a company like every other company, who gives a shit? its not like anyone here has any stakes in blizzard if they lose money, but if you really think about it, they aren't LOSING MONEY.
people tend to think that this is just about SC2 and BW and about these two titles being the better game. Who the fuck cares? if blizzard wins, and kespa loses then there wont be leagues, and all you will see are a bunch of amateurs with a handful of gosus duking it out for a prize money that can amount to the salary they could get from a sponsored team if they are good enough.
I agree with most of your points that it could go in that direction. But like you said Blizzard wants to earn the most money. So they need an E-Sports scene going on. If they kill the TV leagues then there won't be big money for them each tournament. So in that sense they can up the fees high but it will be less profit for them on the long term and profit is what they want so in other words if there's 1 thing they don't want then that is to make sure the Korean E-Sports scene is alive since that will make them most money on the long term.
I dont think Blizzard wants to make an e-sport scene .. think of the maps they made in SC2, then think of the hate they get from good players, now think of the replies they give us.
"We want the maps to be beginner friendly"
IMO, thats not a phrase a good company would say that wants high-level competitive gaming.
what im trying to say is that Blizzard can live without televised games. people will still buy their games. they can still have lots and lots of money. Fee for Broadcasting Rights, on the other hand, is like an expensive wine to them, they dont need it, but the effects it gives them ($$$), they want it so bad. but they dont need it.
On October 18 2010 16:22 Nu11 wrote: for those saying it's unfair for blizzard to determine the IP rights lawyer, remember that it is KesPA who is performing the illegal actions here. The IP belongs to blizzard, that is already a fact, that is not something we have yet to determine. Starcraft belongs to blizzard. KesPA are the ones earning money off of blizzards product without properly respecting their IP rights.
Blizzard is not in the wrong to request the lawyer, it is their position to do so.
3 things where you are wrong
1. No, its not fair. The Korean Gov't should have recommended the arbitrary since the companies involved are Korean companies and are in Korean Land. Blizzard already Gave the broadcasting rights to Gretech. 2. No, kespa does't earn money. How many times do people get this wrong. its been more than 6 months and still people get it wrong. 3. Blizzard made money out of Kespa's action and because of Televised games, they sold more than 5 Million copies in Korea alone.
First you say they don't need it then you basically answered my arguments at point 3 at your 2nd quote They don't need Televised games, which I agree But with Televised games there are more games sold which is more PROFIT for them due to advertisement of the games itself.
If they keep the E-Sports scene (read Televised leagues) then more games sold for them + with the fee along = more profit. They don't need to invest into the scene itself they just need control over someone who is doing this for them (read Gretech) and wants the same with BW (read Kespa). If anything they shouldn't kill the Televised Leagues but the major extra thing Blizzard wants is to have control over those leagues which will increase their profit even more due to free advertisements of their own on TV etc.
On October 18 2010 15:13 aimaimaim wrote: I don't think people realize that right now its not about the money but about recognizing the IP rights of the game developer.
The way I see it:
If Gretech wins this, after a year or so, Blizzard can now leave gretech and get money straight from kespa and they can charge more and more until there isn't going to be PL. Think about it, If the rights are "recognized" then any game developer that has its product being used in Televised E-sports can charge big money for it. Making it very hard to organize leagues. Even if the leagues will continue, there will be cost cutting from the organizers until its dead. Both in Korea and in Abroad, because Blizzard is an american company.
what im saying that if gretech wins, it will be hard to have organized televised e-sports around the world.
If Kespa wins, then its all back to normal with steady progression. Outside korea, there are tons of SC2 tournaments. And with luck, foreign companies outside korea can have an impression that e-sports is a great way to advertise their products using SC2 tournaments to appeal to young adults! and maybe, just maybe, they may even create their own leagues! i mean seriously Coca Cola, an Air Liner supported by its Country (Korean Air), Gilette, Pringles, Shinhan Bank. All of these were companies were at one time or are still supporting, sponsoring leagues for games. and the current team in proleague doesn't have puny sponsor (not anymore)
also about people saying about "blizzard must get payed because its their product blah blah blah". No shit! kespa did a favor for them in BW. what im trying to say is that if blizzard isn't gonna get payed, its not like they are in the most losing end of the stick, their titles are being advertised every time flash drink his pocari sweat while raping jaedong using one hand. and about them being a being money whores because they are a company like every other company, who gives a shit? its not like anyone here has any stakes in blizzard if they lose money, but if you really think about it, they aren't LOSING MONEY.
people tend to think that this is just about SC2 and BW and about these two titles being the better game. Who the fuck cares? if blizzard wins, and kespa loses then there wont be leagues, and all you will see are a bunch of amateurs with a handful of gosus duking it out for a prize money that can amount to the salary they could get from a sponsored team if they are good enough.
Step 1: Blizzard wins and ceases control of all Korean BW Leagues. Step 2: Blizzard profits from BW Leagues. Step 3: Blizzard kills all BW Leagues by charging outrageous Fees for Broadcasting Rights. Step 4: Blizzard no long profits from BW Leagues, but it doesn't matter because to them. Step 5: Brain explodes.
I love how all the so-called BW fans are on KeSPA's side. You seem to have all forgotten about how many times KeSPA has absolutely fucked up in the last however many years. FWIW I've been a BW fan since I was stuck on 56k and text and replays was the only way to follow the scene, but I have much more faith in Blizzard/Gretech than KeSPA, who from the sounds of things has been spreading bullshit in fear of losing total control since the beginning of the negotiations.
Why players from BW don't demand Gretech/Blizzard to pay them for making their company/game popular ? Gretech/Blizzard demanding IP rights broadcast fee is same as KeSPA demanding Greetech/Blizzard to pay for adv. Things work both ways, kespa made blizzard/starcraft popular in korea. Thx to blizzard/starcraft made it possible organisation like KeSPA to form. 100 mil won is like $90k is it so hard both sides to deal gretech and blizzard get adv time in proleague worth of $90k and case is closed.
On October 18 2010 15:13 aimaimaim wrote: I don't think people realize that right now its not about the money but about recognizing the IP rights of the game developer.
The way I see it:
If Gretech wins this, after a year or so, Blizzard can now leave gretech and get money straight from kespa and they can charge more and more until there isn't going to be PL. Think about it, If the rights are "recognized" then any game developer that has its product being used in Televised E-sports can charge big money for it. Making it very hard to organize leagues. Even if the leagues will continue, there will be cost cutting from the organizers until its dead. Both in Korea and in Abroad, because Blizzard is an american company.
what im saying that if gretech wins, it will be hard to have organized televised e-sports around the world.
If Kespa wins, then its all back to normal with steady progression. Outside korea, there are tons of SC2 tournaments. And with luck, foreign companies outside korea can have an impression that e-sports is a great way to advertise their products using SC2 tournaments to appeal to young adults! and maybe, just maybe, they may even create their own leagues! i mean seriously Coca Cola, an Air Liner supported by its Country (Korean Air), Gilette, Pringles, Shinhan Bank. All of these were companies were at one time or are still supporting, sponsoring leagues for games. and the current team in proleague doesn't have puny sponsor (not anymore)
also about people saying about "blizzard must get payed because its their product blah blah blah". No shit! kespa did a favor for them in BW. what im trying to say is that if blizzard isn't gonna get payed, its not like they are in the most losing end of the stick, their titles are being advertised every time flash drink his pocari sweat while raping jaedong using one hand. and about them being a being money whores because they are a company like every other company, who gives a shit? its not like anyone here has any stakes in blizzard if they lose money, but if you really think about it, they aren't LOSING MONEY.
people tend to think that this is just about SC2 and BW and about these two titles being the better game. Who the fuck cares? if blizzard wins, and kespa loses then there wont be leagues, and all you will see are a bunch of amateurs with a handful of gosus duking it out for a prize money that can amount to the salary they could get from a sponsored team if they are good enough.
I agree with most of your points that it could go in that direction. But like you said Blizzard wants to earn the most money. So they need an E-Sports scene going on. If they kill the TV leagues then there won't be big money for them each tournament. So in that sense they can up the fees high but it will be less profit for them on the long term and profit is what they want so in other words if there's 1 thing they don't want then that is to make sure the Korean E-Sports scene is alive since that will make them most money on the long term.
I dont think Blizzard wants to make an e-sport scene .. think of the maps they made in SC2, then think of the hate they get from good players, now think of the replies they give us.
"We want the maps to be beginner friendly"
IMO, thats not a phrase a good company would say that wants high-level competitive gaming.
what im trying to say is that Blizzard can live without televised games. people will still buy their games. they can still have lots and lots of money. Fee for Broadcasting Rights, on the other hand, is like an expensive wine to them, they dont need it, but the effects it gives them ($$$), they want it so bad. but they dont need it.
On October 18 2010 16:22 Nu11 wrote: for those saying it's unfair for blizzard to determine the IP rights lawyer, remember that it is KesPA who is performing the illegal actions here. The IP belongs to blizzard, that is already a fact, that is not something we have yet to determine. Starcraft belongs to blizzard. KesPA are the ones earning money off of blizzards product without properly respecting their IP rights.
Blizzard is not in the wrong to request the lawyer, it is their position to do so.
3 things where you are wrong
1. No, its not fair. The Korean Gov't should have recommended the arbitrary since the companies involved are Korean companies and are in Korean Land. Blizzard already Gave the broadcasting rights to Gretech. 2. No, kespa does't earn money. How many times do people get this wrong. its been more than 6 months and still people get it wrong. 3. Blizzard made money out of Kespa's action and because of Televised games, they sold more than 5 Million copies in Korea alone.
First you say they don't need it then you basically answered my arguments at point 3 at your 2nd quote They don't need Televised games, which I agree But with Televised games there are more games sold which is more PROFIT for them due to advertisement of the games itself.
If they keep the E-Sports scene (read Televised leagues) then more games sold for them + with the fee along = more profit. They don't need to invest into the scene itself they just need control over someone who is doing this for them (read Gretech) and wants the same with BW (read Kespa). If anything they shouldn't kill the Televised Leagues but the major extra thing Blizzard wants is to have control over those leagues which will increase their profit even more due to free advertisements of their own on TV etc.
do take note "the need" and "the want" .. lolol
-they need the money from selling games
-they want the money from broadcasting rights. it doesn't matter if there are games being broadcasted in the future. im talking about long terms.
what im trying to say is that they don't need televised games to sell SC2 anymore. because SC:BW already made it for them. but its a plus if they can get money out of broadcasting BW. BW proleague was like a 10 year hype for SC2, a 10 year advertisement.
On October 18 2010 18:28 stafu wrote: I love how all the so-called BW fans are on KeSPA's side. You seem to have all forgotten about how many times KeSPA has absolutely fucked up in the last however many years. FWIW I've been a BW fan since I was stuck on 56k and text and replays was the only way to follow the scene, but I have much more faith in Blizzard/Gretech than KeSPA, who from the sounds of things has been spreading bullshit in fear of losing total control since the beginning of the negotiations.
doesnt matter how fucked up kespa was .. they still gave proleague .. they still showed high level games.
blizzard want to cater the majority of gamers, which are the throngs of "noobs" and amateurs. no high-level game play.
gretech said they dont want leagues. so no high-level game play for sc2 in the long run.
i dont want to watch basketball leagues in my country if i can see high level ball games in the NBA ..
On October 18 2010 15:13 aimaimaim wrote: I don't think people realize that right now its not about the money but about recognizing the IP rights of the game developer.
The way I see it:
If Gretech wins this, after a year or so, Blizzard can now leave gretech and get money straight from kespa and they can charge more and more until there isn't going to be PL. Think about it, If the rights are "recognized" then any game developer that has its product being used in Televised E-sports can charge big money for it. Making it very hard to organize leagues. Even if the leagues will continue, there will be cost cutting from the organizers until its dead. Both in Korea and in Abroad, because Blizzard is an american company.
what im saying that if gretech wins, it will be hard to have organized televised e-sports around the world.
If Kespa wins, then its all back to normal with steady progression. Outside korea, there are tons of SC2 tournaments. And with luck, foreign companies outside korea can have an impression that e-sports is a great way to advertise their products using SC2 tournaments to appeal to young adults! and maybe, just maybe, they may even create their own leagues! i mean seriously Coca Cola, an Air Liner supported by its Country (Korean Air), Gilette, Pringles, Shinhan Bank. All of these were companies were at one time or are still supporting, sponsoring leagues for games. and the current team in proleague doesn't have puny sponsor (not anymore)
also about people saying about "blizzard must get payed because its their product blah blah blah". No shit! kespa did a favor for them in BW. what im trying to say is that if blizzard isn't gonna get payed, its not like they are in the most losing end of the stick, their titles are being advertised every time flash drink his pocari sweat while raping jaedong using one hand. and about them being a being money whores because they are a company like every other company, who gives a shit? its not like anyone here has any stakes in blizzard if they lose money, but if you really think about it, they aren't LOSING MONEY.
people tend to think that this is just about SC2 and BW and about these two titles being the better game. Who the fuck cares? if blizzard wins, and kespa loses then there wont be leagues, and all you will see are a bunch of amateurs with a handful of gosus duking it out for a prize money that can amount to the salary they could get from a sponsored team if they are good enough.
Step 1: Blizzard wins and ceases control of all Korean BW Leagues. Step 2: Blizzard profits from BW Leagues. Step 3: Blizzard kills all BW Leagues by charging outrageous Fees for Broadcasting Rights. Step 4: Blizzard no long profits from BW Leagues, but it doesn't matter because to them. Step 5: Brain explodes.
That argument makes no sense...
the only competition SC2 has is BW .. does it make sense now?
On October 18 2010 18:28 stafu wrote: I love how all the so-called BW fans are on KeSPA's side. You seem to have all forgotten about how many times KeSPA has absolutely fucked up in the last however many years. FWIW I've been a BW fan since I was stuck on 56k and text and replays was the only way to follow the scene, but I have much more faith in Blizzard/Gretech than KeSPA, who from the sounds of things has been spreading bullshit in fear of losing total control since the beginning of the negotiations.
KeSPA has done a lot of bad things - everyone still remembers that. BUT they have done a lot of good things, far more than they've screwed up.
Let me quote myself and Ryo:
"Not only that - KeSPA did not ask for the money to generate profit - they reinvested it back into esports. Since 2007 we've had:
1) ProLeague change to a 5 round system, one round being Winner's League (with a separate prizepool, IIRC) in the 08-09 season.
2) ProLeague change to a 6 round system, two rounds being Winner's League (not sure how prizepools are going to be distributed yet) for the 10-11 season.
3) KeSPA adressing the imbalanced maps issue in ProLeague (rules change).
4) The introduction of Minor/Dream League.
5) KeSPA LAUNCHING SPECIAL FORCE PROLEAGUE (I know it's not related to BW, but it's a major development).
6) KeSPA helping former Pantech EX team find a new sponsor.
7) KeSPA helping former Hanbit Stars team find a new sponsor.
8) KeSPA working on an esports university sort of thing (don't know the details).
9) Shinhan Bank continuing to sponsor ProLeague despite the whole gretech-KeSPA negotations fiasco.
On top of that, KeSPA also helps in developing other games' esports scenes (my knowledge is limited in that regard), colaborates in hosting various international events in Asia, cooperates with gaming associations from Japan, the UK, etc. OGN and MBC (they're part of KeSPA) launched their realities. OGN got a major sponsor for OSL and hosted one of the finals abroad, in Shanghai. It also made broadcasting deals with Chinese broadcasters.
Not to mention the fact that they keep sustaining the progaming teams (which costs millions of dollars a year per team), broadcasting leagues, and supplying the scene with new quality maps. I'm sure there's more, but I believe this alone is enough to prove that KeSPA is not that bad."
"10) Finding temporary housing/lodging for former estro players when the team dissolved. Arranging practice facilities for them at Yongsan (in coorperation with OGN)
11) Using the bidding system during the estro draft with a minimum wage in place. Action for example got a significant pay rise."
If you think their screw ups outweigh all of that and are enough of a reason for blizzard to kill the BW scene and make sure sc2's doesn't get past its stone age level, then so be it. Many people disagree.
I really don't understand how a company with a product using a lawyer of their own to negotiate whether or not KESPA can use their product is "unfair".
Well Gretech already showed they're not complete dickheads by letting Proleague happen (for both OGN and MBC... especially MBC), I think this time Kespa can do everyone a favour and just negotiate for god sakes.
This is why e-sport newer will get big (or at lest not until some thing change.) As long that a firm owns the rights to play a game it is stupid to invest big money in making a good TV sport and build a community around it. Just think about how the football world would look if who ever made the fist ball owned all rights to the game. I dont think we would play it today.
I think the reason Blizzard gets to choose the arbitrator is twofold; one is because blizzard's name has been damaged by this whole thing and they're not even directly involved in the negotiations and two it was probably an agreement made in exchange for not putting an injunction on the whole thing. as I understand it right now Kespa can go ahead and continue getting ready for the League while negotiations are underway.
Blizzard will probably choose someone who is impartial but also determined to put an end to this. Blizzard does not want the bad press because it could hurt sc2 sales in the long run.
My pretty unsubstantiated guess is that gretech, having acquired the blizzard game broadcasting rights (or whatever that was, something similar :D) Is really not interested in giving Kespa any slack since proleague would compete with GSL, and added to that is previous beefs between gretech and kespa which causes them to be even less willing to cooperate. Blizzard, while supporting gretech probably realises how extremely bad they would look if they shut down proleague so they are probably more interested than gretech in making sure it continues.
I think Gretech have realised that they can't get what they want, without pissing off the SC community, so now they are changing strategy. KESPA knew this all the time and that's why they were so adamant. Ppl who talk down on KESPA should give them a break. Without them, this site wouldn't exist. Without them, there would be no GSL. KESPA made this scene and they deserve respect.
Gretech is just wrong - ideally this would go to court and Gretech would lose their case horribly. The bigger issue is at hand is that Blizzard is making the outrageous assertion that they somehow own and have IP rights to any recording or broadcast of any game they sell. I mean can you imagine having a televised Risk tournament and having to pay Hasbro for essentially advertising their game for them? The whole Blizzard IP claim is just ridiculous, and if this kind of stuff isn't shot down early, it's going to develop into more and more draconian IP ownership claims by corporations in the future.
On October 19 2010 04:52 dybydx wrote: the fee or even a royalty based on % earning could arguably be fair demands from Blizz/Gretech, but the 50% ownership of IP is unreasonable.
i m sure JK Rowling doesnt own 50% IP rights to Harry Potter movies or any merchandise that came out of the series except the books themselves.
im sure jk rowling and any author for that matter sold those rights to those that made the movies, lol. What you just said is so dumb, it makes puppies in india cry. No one would even think of starting to shoot a movie, or sell merchandise without first getting the rights from the author whose books they are using.
On October 19 2010 04:09 Excelsior wrote: Gretech is just wrong - ideally this would go to court and Gretech would lose their case horribly. The bigger issue is at hand is that Blizzard is making the outrageous assertion that they somehow own and have IP rights to any recording or broadcast of any game they sell. I mean can you imagine having a televised Risk tournament and having to pay Hasbro for essentially advertising their game for them? The whole Blizzard IP claim is just ridiculous, and if this kind of stuff isn't shot down early, it's going to develop into more and more draconian IP ownership claims by corporations in the future.
Wow man that sure sounds like crazy. But just because it is crazy, no one would give a shit about watching or televising a risk tournament, so that is why your analogy seems so good. Actually its crap, because if somehow there would be risk tournaments, and televisions started to broadcast them and the ones that hold the tournaments would start to charge fees and make money, the creators of risk would show up to get their share before you can say zergling.
Yeah, I agree, it is really too bad that Blizzard/Gretech are now showing signs of sanity and are backing off. All this time I have been waiting for them to crash and burn. Ideally by losing in court but shutting down Proleague would have been better than the status quo we have now. As much as I love Proleague, losing Proleague for the sake of future esports is not such a bad sacrifice to make. Maybe when it actually happened people would realize what Blizzard is doing and what it actually means for esports. The backlash for them and for SC2/Gretech would have been great.
If the Korean government is genuine about esports they should make an esports law that specifically prevents this from happening. Blizzard is basically violating the IP rights of Kespa/the players by claiming it is theirs. When kespa/OGN/MBS play music they have to pay royalties. These royalties are predetermined. Blizzard should receive the same kind of royalty. Blizzard can collect their minor royalty and stay put.
If there is a ruling on this in the US then esports is dead. In the US all business laws were written not by politicians but by the corporations themselves. Then, the US was able to force these laws on other countries. If this happens we esports fans can only hope for one thing; for Blizzard to go bankrupt. There's still some talent there, though many have already left because they didn't like the artistic direction Blizzard was taking. Some people just couldn't because they have families to support. Only when Blizzard is no more other developers can hope to create an RTS game specifically designed for competitive play. Such a company, no matter if it is noname and without huge funds, can make a game that gives the competitive player everything they wish for. Like lan latency, making maphacking impossible, good maps, etc. Look at HoN.
On October 19 2010 04:09 Excelsior wrote: Gretech is just wrong - ideally this would go to court and Gretech would lose their case horribly. The bigger issue is at hand is that Blizzard is making the outrageous assertion that they somehow own and have IP rights to any recording or broadcast of any game they sell. I mean can you imagine having a televised Risk tournament and having to pay Hasbro for essentially advertising their game for them? The whole Blizzard IP claim is just ridiculous, and if this kind of stuff isn't shot down early, it's going to develop into more and more draconian IP ownership claims by corporations in the future.
Do you have any idea about Copyright and IP laws work? Of course the creator has a big saying about how is his product used in derivative works.
Let me put you an example. Music and dancing. Lets suppose you have an artist who creates a song, he goes and copyrights the song. Now a TV show such as MTV creates a TV series called "Do you think you can dance" where the contestant will dance to this song on their own unique ways, and the TV judges will judge them and give them prices.
Now the show becomes incredibly successful because people love seeing silly dances. The TV show owners make millions(Kespa-TV Networks), the dancers make little money ( Players) and not a single penny goes to the creator of the song other than the cost of the CD(Blizzard).
Are you saying this is correct/OK? A musician/artist has no saying, input or is not economically entitled to any benefit /use of his product, other than the original price for individual/ non commercial consumption?
Lets say now that you are a christian artist, and you create an awesome beat. Turnout this beat is now used in porn movies because, it actually sound great and mixes well with people screwing each other. Now it is obvious that this is negative advertisement for his fan base since christian music followers are not to thrilled about porn music.
So under your scenario this guy has no recourse to stop the porn company from using his soundtrack, effectively damaging his reputation / income base.
Blizzard has a lot of rights deciding on how is his products used in a commercial setting.
From what i heard, yes there is a period of validation. Also from what i ve heard, that period is extended by 20 years every 20 years, so practically, probably no.
Battaro, i think there should be a distinction made between getting royalties and owning the IP right to the derivative work itself. Blizz should get its royalties, yes i think so too.. But as to the work itself (e.g Proleague games), SC:BW is merely a tool that's been purchased by the organiser in order for their competitors to showcase their skills, and from the tournament format to players to all else, none of this has anything to do with Blizzard.. So if the money paid for the game is considered not enough, then maybe they will be entitled some royalties.
I dont think Blizz should be given so much power just because they created a tool among many others that contruct E-Sport as we know it today.. It sets a real bad precedence for other people who would want to organise tournaments or promote eSport, since they barely own half of their hardwork anyway, the other half belonged to some guy who already get paid, and is sitting around getting paid even more.
What better way to save Brood War than with an arbiter?
This quote wins the thread. I'm really hoping that with neutral mediation, the negotiation can actually progress, instead of all of the previous dreadful trainwrecks masquerading as negotiations.
aint that pretty much win-win for blizz ? if it doesnt work kespa killed bw so sc2 can be more popular without blizz being villain, if it works they get money from bw or did i miss something ?
I dont think Blizz should be given so much power just because they created a tool among many others that contruct E-Sport as we know it today.. It sets a real bad precedence for other people who would want to organise tournaments or promote eSport, since they barely own half of their hard work anyway, the other half belonged to some guy who already get paid, and is sitting around getting paid even more.
If they are not given control and an economic benefit, then what incentive do software companies have for creating the multiplayer portion of their games? The sale of the single player mode will have to justify the investment in creating the multiplayer software, and for lots of companies it does not. A lot of great games are released without a multiplayer, because it costs money to do, companies have to take a leap of faith and invest on it. If we can not guarantee legally that they will control the product, it reduces the incentive to invest. Specially when there is the precedent of another entity coming and making money of your work without paying you nothing.
On October 19 2010 04:52 dybydx wrote: the fee or even a royalty based on % earning could arguably be fair demands from Blizz/Gretech, but the 50% ownership of IP is unreasonable.
i m sure JK Rowling doesnt own 50% IP rights to Harry Potter movies or any merchandise that came out of the series except the books themselves.
Nobody can make any movies or any merchandise about Harry Potter without her permission, unless she sold the rights to some other company.
People advocating Kespa just make me laugh. It clearly tells me that they did not even pay any effort to learn about e-sports history They just want to see their 'precious proleague' and don't want to think about anything else.
From what i heard, yes there is a period of validation. Also from what i ve heard, that period is extended by 20 years every 20 years, so practically, probably no.
Battaro, i think there should be a distinction made between getting royalties and owning the IP right to the derivative work itself. Blizz should get its royalties, yes i think so too.. But as to the work itself (e.g Proleague games), SC:BW is merely a tool that's been purchased by the organiser in order for their competitors to showcase their skills, and from the tournament format to players to all else, none of this has anything to do with Blizzard.. So if the money paid for the game is considered not enough, then maybe they will be entitled some royalties.
I dont think Blizz should be given so much power just because they created a tool among many others that contruct E-Sport as we know it today.. It sets a real bad precedence for other people who would want to organise tournaments or promote eSport, since they barely own half of their hardwork anyway, the other half belonged to some guy who already get paid, and is sitting around getting paid even more.
Given your definition of a tool, would you also consider music to be a tool? Because really when music is used in dance competitions, it's simply to showcase the skill of the dancer or when it's used in a film, it's used by the director to evoke a certain emotion (music being used as a tool.) Should the artist any say in how their work is used? Because although music can be used as a tool, it is first an art. Similarly a video game is a compilation of art, if not art itself (music, graphics, gameplay.)
Would you argue that there is a difference between how the music is used and how the video game is used. Or are you arguing that IP with music and books should be different than what currently is? That is, if someone wanted to sell their own fanfic, or use U2's "Where the Streets Have No Name" for whatever commercial they wanted, would you think that's legitimate? Do we ignore an artists sentiment expressed by Neil Young "Notes For You" on not selling out? Because if the artist does not have control over the IP for their own work, they can become associated with companies, politics, working conditions that the artist completely disagrees with.
On October 19 2010 13:12 lololcat wrote: People advocating Kespa just make me laugh. It clearly tells me that they did not even pay any effort to learn about e-sports history They just want to see their 'precious proleague' and don't want to think about anything else.
On October 19 2010 04:09 Excelsior wrote: Gretech is just wrong - ideally this would go to court and Gretech would lose their case horribly. The bigger issue is at hand is that Blizzard is making the outrageous assertion that they somehow own and have IP rights to any recording or broadcast of any game they sell. I mean can you imagine having a televised Risk tournament and having to pay Hasbro for essentially advertising their game for them? The whole Blizzard IP claim is just ridiculous, and if this kind of stuff isn't shot down early, it's going to develop into more and more draconian IP ownership claims by corporations in the future.
Do you have any idea about Copyright and IP laws work? Of course the creator has a big saying about how is his product used in derivative works.
Let me put you an example. Music and dancing. Lets suppose you have an artist who creates a song, he goes and copyrights the song. Now a TV show such as MTV creates a TV series called "Do you think you can dance" where the contestant will dance to this song on their own unique ways, and the TV judges will judge them and give them prices.
Now the show becomes incredibly successful because people love seeing silly dances. The TV show owners make millions(Kespa-TV Networks), the dancers make little money ( Players) and not a single penny goes to the creator of the song other than the cost of the CD(Blizzard).
Are you saying this is correct/OK? A musician/artist has no saying, input or is not economically entitled to any benefit /use of his product, other than the original price for individual/ non commercial consumption?
Lets say now that you are a christian artist, and you create an awesome beat. Turnout this beat is now used in porn movies because, it actually sound great and mixes well with people screwing each other. Now it is obvious that this is negative advertisement for his fan base since christian music followers are not to thrilled about porn music.
So under your scenario this guy has no recourse to stop the porn company from using his soundtrack, effectively damaging his reputation / income base.
Blizzard has a lot of rights deciding on how is his products used in a commercial setting.
Umm first off esports is good for SC so your ridiculous porn analogy is irrevelant. Second, I would agree that blizzard would have some IP rights to BW if Kespa just picked their game off the ground, broadcasted it, and made a big buck. However, THIS IS NOT THE CASE.
Look at the blizzard maps and countless third party tools that had to be made before SC could even be played competitively. If you followed the scene and looked at what blizzard did for competitive BW (read: jack shit) then you would realize that blizzard doesnt deserve money from kespa.
On October 19 2010 13:12 lololcat wrote: People advocating Kespa just make me laugh. It clearly tells me that they did not even pay any effort to learn about e-sports history They just want to see their 'precious proleague' and don't want to think about anything else.
troll?? what??
please kindly elaborate more! seriously..
Blizzard started to interfere with Korean starcraft leagues in 2007 when KeSPA claimed the rights to proleague and forced ongamenet and mbcgame to pay them a large sum of money. (look up IEG for more information, I believe that the amount was about 1.3 million dollars total) The funny part is that Kespa refused to show proper respect and pay minimal amount of money to Blizzard, yet they forced other broadcasting companies(such as ongamenet and mbcgame) to pay them. When companies refused, KeSPA pulled all the players out of MSL. -_-
Blizzard have been quite supportive of Korean starcraft leagues until then.
I mean..I can't believe how many ppl are just babbling here without trying to get any information other than those that were spoon fed to them.
I'm not saying that Blizzard is a victm here, but if you actually think that we should support KeSPA, you're either crazy or have no idea what is actually going on.
On October 19 2010 04:09 Excelsior wrote: Gretech is just wrong - ideally this would go to court and Gretech would lose their case horribly. The bigger issue is at hand is that Blizzard is making the outrageous assertion that they somehow own and have IP rights to any recording or broadcast of any game they sell. I mean can you imagine having a televised Risk tournament and having to pay Hasbro for essentially advertising their game for them? The whole Blizzard IP claim is just ridiculous, and if this kind of stuff isn't shot down early, it's going to develop into more and more draconian IP ownership claims by corporations in the future.
Do you have any idea about Copyright and IP laws work? Of course the creator has a big saying about how is his product used in derivative works.
Let me put you an example. Music and dancing. Lets suppose you have an artist who creates a song, he goes and copyrights the song. Now a TV show such as MTV creates a TV series called "Do you think you can dance" where the contestant will dance to this song on their own unique ways, and the TV judges will judge them and give them prices.
Now the show becomes incredibly successful because people love seeing silly dances. The TV show owners make millions(Kespa-TV Networks), the dancers make little money ( Players) and not a single penny goes to the creator of the song other than the cost of the CD(Blizzard).
Are you saying this is correct/OK? A musician/artist has no saying, input or is not economically entitled to any benefit /use of his product, other than the original price for individual/ non commercial consumption?
Lets say now that you are a christian artist, and you create an awesome beat. Turnout this beat is now used in porn movies because, it actually sound great and mixes well with people screwing each other. Now it is obvious that this is negative advertisement for his fan base since christian music followers are not to thrilled about porn music.
So under your scenario this guy has no recourse to stop the porn company from using his soundtrack, effectively damaging his reputation / income base.
Blizzard has a lot of rights deciding on how is his products used in a commercial setting.
Umm first off esports is good for SC so your ridiculous porn analogy is irrevelant. Second, I would agree that blizzard would have some IP rights to BW if Kespa just picked their game off the ground, broadcasted it, and made a big buck. However, THIS IS NOT THE CASE.
Look at the blizzard maps and countless third party tools that had to be made before SC could even be played competitively. If you followed the scene and looked at what blizzard did for competitive BW (read: jack shit) then you would realize that blizzard doesnt deserve money from kespa.
LOL what is KeSPA doing other than trying to milk the money out? not that I blame them for that. If you think KeSPA developed Korean e-sports, please please learn your materials before you talk about it. KeSPA may have been one of driving force that developed e-sports before SK took control of it. But now, it is not the same group anymore.
Every Kespa team costs 40 million euro or more to run every year. Do you really think that Proleague prize money covers the costs? It isn't even anywhere close. Proleaugue prize poor is basically irrelevant. Teams don't compete for prize money. They complete for the prestige of being no.1. Kespa deliberately loses money every year. That is their goal. They are non-profit. The money goes all to the players who can be professional this way. And I am not taking just about salaries. It costs a lot of money to run a team of 20 professional players.
Who do Kespa milk? OGN and MBC? Give me a break. They get to broadcast free stuff using minimal resources to reach a big audience advertisers love? You really think Kespa shouldn't sell broadcasting rights and just give them away for free? MBC and OGN should just get free money while Kespa makes a 500 million euro loss every year? If I were a player on a low wage and Kespa gave away a couple of millions away for free I would be pissed.
Royalties and the broadcasting fees seemed fair. Total control over leagues and ability to audit KeSPA does not. You don't see Valve demanding total control over every Counter-Strike tournament, and good old CS is doing fine, Valve makes money, everybody is happy.
Did you know that Valve sued vivendi and won because Vivendi was distributing copies of the games to internet Cafes? They won 2 million dollars.
I doubt every team costs 40 million euros. Considering the current player salaries. At most the best player salary is 0.25 mill, if you are flash or JD. Now are you saying the team administrative costs are over $55 million, when they pay at most 3 million in salaries to the players.? ( im just pulling the 3 million out of my ass, but it is a safe bet that the accumulated players salary is a lot lower than that.)
And if they do cost $55 millions, where do the rest of the money goes? Really ask yourself where does it goes? You either have your numbers wrong or the teams are really milking the players and the system for all that they are worth.
Second The porn analogy works because it shows the case where the content is being used in a matter the author, does not agrees with. Both morally and economically. You can not say that "well esports falls under the good side of the spectrum" so it is ok to use it without the author authorization, because IT IS NOT YOUR product.
Only the owner of the product can determine if they agree or not with the usage, not the public opinion, or even worst the individuals making money off it.
The 40 million isn't my estimate. I would have estimated it to be lower. That was number given for CJ Entus. You have players, staff, housing, vans, team building activities, holidays, food, etc.
It doesn't really matter if it is 5 million or 40. Those teams are losing money. Kespa is milking the players harder because the teams are more expensive? This is so backwards. The players are worth money because they are good at SC BW. Why should they be free? And how is it milking the player if Kespa gets money for the broadcasting rights. Those teams maintain, train and pay the players. The players are under contract of the teams. Kespa buys it from the players and then Kespa should give it for free to MBC/OGN, who are actually the only ones that really profit from this entire system? That just means less money for the players.
And the teams really take amazing care of their players. Yeah, eStro was being xenophobic to foreigners. Yes, they have Korean work ethics but guess what; it's Korea. Yeah, it is wrong and counter productive. But it is not deliberate exploitation but ignorance. And that players don't have a player union is their own fault. Why did they never start one?
Yes, those in charge of Kespa are the sponsors and the teams. When it is player interest vs sponsor/team interest then players get the short end of the stick. But without Kespa sponsors, which Blizzard is at war with, SC BW has to do with many many less millions.
Blizzard, by claiming ownership over the players and over match broadcasting rights are violating the IP rights of the players. The players create the games, not Blizzard. No one will watch Blizzard's AIs play SC BW. The players determine the actual value.
Blizzard should be glad to Korea. They make up more than half of all SC BW sales. Without esports SC BW wouldn't have sold more in Korea than in Europe. It is such a huge part of all the sales, it will cost Blizzard hundreds of millions if that hadn't happened. And instead of being grateful they accuse S Korea of piracy and strip progamers of their IP rights and try to destroy the esports infrastructure the community as a whole has been able to build up. Don't forget that thanks to Kespa players didn't have to pay a huge chunk of cash over their prize money.
And you people need to stop being hypocrites. Do you know how this community would look like if Blizzard enforced on TL/foreigner SC/SC2 what they try to enforce in Korea. It would be a disaster.
If the Blizzard ideology to esports doesn't fail in court soon, and other devs start to copy it, esports is dead. Devs will be in control, milk it, and let it die when they gain from it. Blizzard isn't in the business to make esports work. They just want to sell games. SC2 esports is good for them now. That will change in the future. Then the just pull the plug. Kespa is only there to make esports succeed and they are nonprofit.
And the teams really take amazing care of their players. Yeah, eStro was being xenophobic to foreigners. Yes, they have Korean work ethics but guess what; it's Korea. Yeah, it is wrong and counter productive. But it is not deliberate exploitation but ignorance. And that players don't have a player union is their own fault. Why did they never start one?
How can not say this with a straight face? Do you know how B team players were treated, in terms of working conditions and salary?
Yes, those in charge of Kespa are the sponsors and the teams. When it is player interest vs sponsor/team interest then players get the short end of the stick. But without Kespa sponsors, which Blizzard is at war with, SC BW has to do with many many less millions.
In the end, Blizzard is at war with those companies that are making a bank, via advertising or direct revenues based on BLIZZARD's product.
Kespa is only there to make esports succeed and they are nonprofit.
Kespa is only there to make esporst ( that they control and can profit from) succeed. And to actively block players from participating on other tournaments they do not control the revenue/broadcasting.
On October 20 2010 02:27 battarro wrote: How can not say this with a straight face? Do you know how B team players were treated, in terms of working conditions and salary?
How can you say that with a straight face? How can you support Blizzard and complain about B teamer salaries? You want to take away 95% of the income of esports and give more to B teamers? B teamers don't get a lot of money for the amount of work they are doing. No kidding. But they aren't there to work and make easy money. They are there to try to become top players. What matters is that what the teams do for their players. Those players are their out of their free will. If they weren't on a team they still would have to practice just as much for just as little money. A team is only a bonus and that's why so many Koreans tried to get on one.
In the end, Blizzard is at war with those companies that are making a bank, via advertising or direct revenues based on BLIZZARD's product.
No one is really making any money. Except Blizzard indirectly and OGN/MBC a little bit. And the fans and players. Fans get to watch for free and players get team support unimaginable in any other esports industry. You can argue KT, CJ, etc sponsor because it also has benefits. But you surely can't prove that in court. Giving away money doesn't make you rich, even though advertising isn't just charity. But really, you think Blizzard should charge sponsors for giving money because they benefit from it? Where was Blizzard all these years? They never sponsored anything? If those sponsors all get to have free money by giving away money why didn't Blizzard do anything? Ooh wait, they already got free advertising and made 250 million dollars of sales that way. What did Korea ever get back from all that money? Nothing but a stab in the back.
Kespa is only there to make esporst ( that they control and can profit from) succeed. And to actively block players from participating on other tournaments they do not control the revenue/broadcasting.
Do you know the GOM TV classic fiasco?
You mean that league Kespa authorized but teams didn't want to participate in, for various reasons. And then got a Judas kiss from Blizzard. Kespa authorized Gomtv classic. Estro/SKT/OGN/MBC hurt it. Blizzard killed it.
what a pile of rubbish. 20 million a year ? Where did this number come from ? Some kespa dude ? If it's more than 5 million i would be amazed. Again, its not like someone puts a gun to these corporations to sponsor teams. They do it because they benefit from it, its what SPONSORSHIP means. You give money and you receive image. You dont "sponsor" a team and then start crying out that omg you are non profit and you are doing it only to grow esports. That is a pile of rubbish, and only a simpleton can buy that crap. Blizzard did sponsor GomTv, and Kespa killed it cuz Blizzard was starting to annoy them with requests. They are the expression of corporate greed, not Blizzard, because if they dont control it, they dont want it. That is why they are batshit scared of sc2. As someone very nicely put it in another post, Kespa are like the labor union that outlived its usefulness, and is now trying to still keep control by any means. They are regulating everything, from player salary to free agency rules so that the players dont benefit, just corporations. Trying to defend them is just silly, while your only argument is they have built the esport scene in Korea. If it werent for kespa it would have been someone else, and i guess in 2 years you will see how a scene can flourish without kespa - yea, im talkin about sc2. If the fans like it, the scene will grow, and the tv companies will broadcast it.
On October 20 2010 03:12 ptz wrote: what a pile of rubbish. 20 million a year ? Where did this number come from ? Some kespa dude ? If it's more than 5 million i would be amazed. Again, its not like someone puts a gun to these corporations to sponsor teams. They do it because they benefit from it, its what SPONSORSHIP means. You give money and you receive image. You dont "sponsor" a team and then start crying out that omg you are non profit and you are doing it only to grow esports. That is a pile of rubbish, and only a simpleton can buy that crap. Blizzard did sponsor GomTv, and Kespa killed it cuz Blizzard was starting to annoy them with requests. They are the expression of corporate greed, not Blizzard, because if they dont control it, they dont want it. That is why they are batshit scared of sc2. As someone very nicely put it in another post, Kespa are like the labor union that outlived its usefulness, and is now trying to still keep control by any means. They are regulating everything, from player salary to free agency rules so that the players dont benefit, just corporations. Trying to defend them is just silly, while your only argument is they have built the esport scene in Korea. If it werent for kespa it would have been someone else, and i guess in 2 years you will see how a scene can flourish without kespa - yea, im talkin about sc2. If the fans like it, the scene will grow, and the tv companies will broadcast it.
"There are about 300 professional gamers in South Korea who play for 11 teams which are run by big business conglomerates which pay each of them a salary.
Each team has a house where the players live and train, and Ma Jae-Yoon invited Click to visit his.
People practising their gaming skills They are just practising a lot to win. If they want to lose they don't need to play that much Team manager Sean Oh
In the main training centre there about are about 20 pro-gamers.
Sean Oh manages the team, which he says costs the conglomerate $20m (£10m) a year."
Sean Oh is full of crap, period. 20 mil $ is like less than 15 million euros. Salaries for a top team with lets say 15 players on the roster cant go higher than 2-3 million. A condo rent for one year, and food, and equipment another 1-2 million. Get real. Make a list. Stop trusting all you read, just cuz sean oh says so.
Kespa(AKA the teams) did not allowed their players to go to participate, citing player fatigue. Why don't let the players decide to participate or not, instead of taking the option away from them?
You need to realize that Kespa EQUALS the teams, It is not a separate agency regulated by a third party observer. It is an agency where the teams make the decisions. It is effectively a cartel/union of the teams. Just google "GOMtv classic kespa boycott history season 4"
You have to add a lot of "fees" in coaches salaries, management salaries, etc to make up the diference bettween the players salaries plus housing plus computer expenses.
Team liquid and OGs just setup a team house with more players than a SC1 team and im sure their overall budget was well under 1 mill.
I do understand that housing/ management /logistics costs, but when you are talking about a difference in the millions of dollars, from 1-2 millions on salary to 15 millions in sponsor money, you have to think about exploitation.
But i guess that is OK, since as you said it, it is Korea.
On October 20 2010 03:23 ptz wrote: Sean Oh is full of crap, period. 20 mil $ is like less than 15 million euros. Salaries for a top team with lets say 15 players on the roster cant go higher than 2-3 million. A condo rent for one year, and food, and equipment another 1-2 million. Get real. Make a list. Stop trusting all you read, just cuz sean oh says so.
I'd rather trust Sean Oh than made up on the spot "estimations."
There really is no arguing if even after quoting evidence, the other side goes: "but i dont trust your evidence". Whether it is because they are really skeptical, or they just cant admit to being wrong, they wont suddenly agree with you, imo.
As to the part where teams pulling their players due to overfatigue + GOM's league lacking in prestige.. Please, you people are treating their job the same as your "playing games".. Do remember that those are professionals who get paid sizable sums every month to play their game professionally. Would you spend hundreds of thousand $ a month paying someone and tell them "do whatever you want"? Doesnt make sense to me, and i surely hope it is the same for you.. If those teams who contracted (and paid) those players deem that something (GOM's stuffs, in this case) is negatively affecting players' performance in the major leagues, they reserve the right to advice them against it (if not forbid it entirely).. Think back on the Coke vs Pepsi analogy, it is pretty clear.
On October 20 2010 00:27 Meriones wrote: Every Kespa team costs 40 million euro or more to run every year. Do you really think that Proleague prize money covers the costs? It isn't even anywhere close. Proleaugue prize poor is basically irrelevant. Teams don't compete for prize money. They complete for the prestige of being no.1. Kespa deliberately loses money every year. That is their goal. They are non-profit. The money goes all to the players who can be professional this way. And I am not taking just about salaries. It costs a lot of money to run a team of 20 professional players.
Who do Kespa milk? OGN and MBC? Give me a break. They get to broadcast free stuff using minimal resources to reach a big audience advertisers love? You really think Kespa shouldn't sell broadcasting rights and just give them away for free? MBC and OGN should just get free money while Kespa makes a 500 million euro loss every year? If I were a player on a low wage and Kespa gave away a couple of millions away for free I would be pissed.
That's stupid.
Learn how this league started, and KeSPA started first. Then try to tell me that MBC and OGN is getting free money with straight face. There are reasons why we hate KeSPA, and those didn't just happen yesterday, KeSPA got what was coming for them a while. If you treat KeSPA as 'necessary evil' and refused to acknowledge that some changes have to be made, you are just one of those zombies who say 'Just let us watch proleague, we don't care it is legal or not'. Hardcore e-sports fans have been criticizing KeSPA for several years. Don't think you Team can just barge into argument supporting KeSPA when you lack both knowledge and reason.
On October 20 2010 02:27 battarro wrote: How can not say this with a straight face? Do you know how B team players were treated, in terms of working conditions and salary?
How can you say that with a straight face? How can you support Blizzard and complain about B teamer salaries? You want to take away 95% of the income of esports and give more to B teamers? B teamers don't get a lot of money for the amount of work they are doing. No kidding. But they aren't there to work and make easy money. They are there to try to become top players. What matters is that what the teams do for their players. Those players are their out of their free will. If they weren't on a team they still would have to practice just as much for just as little money. A team is only a bonus and that's why so many Koreans tried to get on one.
In the end, Blizzard is at war with those companies that are making a bank, via advertising or direct revenues based on BLIZZARD's product.
No one is really making any money. Except Blizzard indirectly and OGN/MBC a little bit. And the fans and players. Fans get to watch for free and players get team support unimaginable in any other esports industry. You can argue KT, CJ, etc sponsor because it also has benefits. But you surely can't prove that in court. Giving away money doesn't make you rich, even though advertising isn't just charity. But really, you think Blizzard should charge sponsors for giving money because they benefit from it? Where was Blizzard all these years? They never sponsored anything? If those sponsors all get to have free money by giving away money why didn't Blizzard do anything? Ooh wait, they already got free advertising and made 250 million dollars of sales that way. What did Korea ever get back from all that money? Nothing but a stab in the back.
Kespa is only there to make esporst ( that they control and can profit from) succeed. And to actively block players from participating on other tournaments they do not control the revenue/broadcasting.
Do you know the GOM TV classic fiasco?
You mean that league Kespa authorized but teams didn't want to participate in, for various reasons. And then got a Judas kiss from Blizzard. Kespa authorized Gomtv classic. Estro/SKT/OGN/MBC hurt it. Blizzard killed it.
.....seriously are you dumb? Blizzard killed Gomtv classic? HAHA dude just stay silent if you don't know the material.
On October 20 2010 02:27 battarro wrote: How can not say this with a straight face? Do you know how B team players were treated, in terms of working conditions and salary?
How can you say that with a straight face? How can you support Blizzard and complain about B teamer salaries? You want to take away 95% of the income of esports and give more to B teamers? B teamers don't get a lot of money for the amount of work they are doing. No kidding. But they aren't there to work and make easy money. They are there to try to become top players. What matters is that what the teams do for their players. Those players are their out of their free will. If they weren't on a team they still would have to practice just as much for just as little money. A team is only a bonus and that's why so many Koreans tried to get on one.
In the end, Blizzard is at war with those companies that are making a bank, via advertising or direct revenues based on BLIZZARD's product.
No one is really making any money. Except Blizzard indirectly and OGN/MBC a little bit. And the fans and players. Fans get to watch for free and players get team support unimaginable in any other esports industry. You can argue KT, CJ, etc sponsor because it also has benefits. But you surely can't prove that in court. Giving away money doesn't make you rich, even though advertising isn't just charity. But really, you think Blizzard should charge sponsors for giving money because they benefit from it? Where was Blizzard all these years? They never sponsored anything? If those sponsors all get to have free money by giving away money why didn't Blizzard do anything? Ooh wait, they already got free advertising and made 250 million dollars of sales that way. What did Korea ever get back from all that money? Nothing but a stab in the back.
Kespa is only there to make esporst ( that they control and can profit from) succeed. And to actively block players from participating on other tournaments they do not control the revenue/broadcasting.
Do you know the GOM TV classic fiasco?
You mean that league Kespa authorized but teams didn't want to participate in, for various reasons. And then got a Judas kiss from Blizzard. Kespa authorized Gomtv classic. Estro/SKT/OGN/MBC hurt it. Blizzard killed it.
.....seriously are you dumb? Blizzard killed Gomtv classic? HAHA dude just stay silent if you don't know the material.
Your location says "United States" so English is supposedly your native language, yet you're incapable of grasping his metaphor.
"Judas kiss from Blizzard" = blizzard teaming up with gomtv/gretech was what antagonized teams other than eSTRO, OGN and MBC, which already had a conflict of interests with gomtv. The reason for that was how blizzard treated KeSPA like dirt in their "negotiations" and their ridiculous demands.
It's akin to a person infected with HIV (consciously) infecting someone else. In case you won't understand that one either: blizzard were already at odds with KeSPA and knew teaming up with gretech would bring KeSPA's wrath onto gomtv.
If kespa banned their players from playing in Gomtv classic then how did they play in it anyway?
Kespa only decided not to support their league after even the teams that did wanted to play started to get doubts and when Blizzard hijacked gomtv for their war on Korean esports. If you think Kespa should give their players they invested hundreds of millions of dolalrs in for free to a league run by an organization that only starts to run leagues because it is out to destroy them, then you are absurd. Why should Kespa give everything they have to Blizzard?
Kespa has always been criticized? What for? Players getting DQed for talking during a match? No one whined about those rules and everyone knew about them. Then when a ref enforces a rule people get mad. People practice 12 hours a day but they don't know how to request a pause? Honestly, if you know the rule is to say 'ppp' and not 'pp' then you actually practice pausing the game. Have a coach randomly pull a monitor chord. No one protested the rules. All teams agreed with them. It's stupid to whine about a rule because you failed to follow it. Yeah, it was lame for the fans, but blame the player too. Afterwards, Kespa actually adjusted the rules so how are they bad?
Only thing you can criticize kespa for is free agents. But people here actually criticize Kespa for not starting SC BW leagues in Sweden or in Peru or wherever else.
And if you think OGN/MBC should steal/get for free the players IP then you are stupid. Especially if you also think B teamers should get a huge salary raise.
Anyway, only stupid people hate Kespa. Kespa isn't some evil organization. It is a body sanctioned by the government in which all parties have seats. Blizzard gave the middle finger to hundreds of millions of SC BW sponsorship money. How can you defend that. Blizzard is the reason Kespa isn't running a professional SC2 league. It is why we have Gretech with many semi-professional players that requires us to pay for a laggy stream.
But no, people just worship Gretech because they have English casters. To us oldschool people who already understand the game English commentary wasn't a big plus. Yeah, it helped bring in new people. I'm not saying it didn't. But many of you people only watched Gomtv leagues because you couldn't enjoy the game without English commentary. Ooh and that 6 posts guy is just a troll. Let's all ignore him.
Team liquid and OGs just setup a team house with more players than a SC1 team and im sure their overall budget was well under 1 mill.
I do understand that housing/ management /logistics costs, but when you are talking about a difference in the millions of dollars, from 1-2 millions on salary to 15 millions in sponsor money, you have to think about exploitation.
Maybe running a team without a proper budget is exploitation. It's not like amateur training houses don't exist. But then the players have to pay for their own costs. Maybe they have to pay to be on the team. I think other SC BW amateur houses required you to pay to train with them. If you don't have the budget, where does the money come from?
On October 20 2010 00:27 Meriones wrote: Every Kespa team costs 40 million euro or more to run every year. Do you really think that Proleague prize money covers the costs? It isn't even anywhere close. Proleaugue prize poor is basically irrelevant. Teams don't compete for prize money. They complete for the prestige of being no.1. Kespa deliberately loses money every year. That is their goal. They are non-profit. The money goes all to the players who can be professional this way. And I am not taking just about salaries. It costs a lot of money to run a team of 20 professional players.
Who do Kespa milk? OGN and MBC? Give me a break. They get to broadcast free stuff using minimal resources to reach a big audience advertisers love? You really think Kespa shouldn't sell broadcasting rights and just give them away for free? MBC and OGN should just get free money while Kespa makes a 500 million euro loss every year? If I were a player on a low wage and Kespa gave away a couple of millions away for free I would be pissed.
That's stupid.
Learn how this league started, and KeSPA started first. Then try to tell me that MBC and OGN is getting free money with straight face. There are reasons why we hate KeSPA, and those didn't just happen yesterday, KeSPA got what was coming for them a while. If you treat KeSPA as 'necessary evil' and refused to acknowledge that some changes have to be made, you are just one of those zombies who say 'Just let us watch proleague, we don't care it is legal or not'. Hardcore e-sports fans have been criticizing KeSPA for several years. Don't think you Team can just barge into argument supporting KeSPA when you lack both knowledge and reason.
finally someone who knows what they are talking about. now u should feed these nubs some links to legitimate sources so they can stfu about how blizzard killed gom classic cause im too lazy .
On October 20 2010 06:50 Meriones wrote: To us oldschool people who already understand the game English commentary wasn't a big plus. .
woah you understand SC2? i shal bow down to you if you teach me your ways. if ur refering to BW, then saying people only liked gom casue they had english comentary is kinda silly. If they are posting in this thread, theyve obvisouly seen more then just gom classic. english comentaries were not that hard to find on youtube. and before you go bashing those too, they may have been bad, but the observing was done by koreans. So watching an english comentary muted was just as good as watching jon747 in korean, unless u know korean.
Blizzard is the reason Kespa isn't running a professional SC2 league. It is why we have Gretech with many semi-professional players that requires us to pay for a laggy stream.
And i thank blizzard for that. I do not want SC2 run the same way BW was. Besides, i trust SC2 in blizzard's hands more then i trust it in KESPA's . And i would rather pay for a stream honestly. Blizzard is trying to legitimize espots. having enough paying customers helps that goal more then anything. soon with the exposure these games are getting, english streams are gona have american companies sponsoring them, and esports will actually be a legitimate sport. Maybe even ESPN will start broadcasting it. thats farr off in the future if it even happens at all, but having people pay for quality content will get esports there faster. keyword there ofcorse is QUALITY, which the gom streams have not been. But they are improving, we should give them a bit more patience...
I am not saying the gomtv league was bad. They had Flash, Jaedong, Stork, those are good players and it was fun even though it was easier to win.
The point was many of these people couldn't enjoy watching Korean matches without English commentary. So they started to watch Gomtv. Then when it had to be shut down because of Blizzard they were mad, and had to stop watching. Now with SC2 they are back and raging against Kespa together with some other confused people who are still mad their favorite player (backho) got QDed.
And i thank blizzard for that. I do not want SC2 run the same way BW was. Besides, i trust SC2 in blizzard's hands more then i trust it in KESPA's . And i would rather pay for a stream honestly. Blizzard is trying to legitimize espots. having enough paying customers helps that goal more then anything.
This is so confusing to me. You want SC2 to be purely amateur/semi-professional again? I don't have any clue what difference you see between how Blizzard runs their league and how Kespa does it.
Anyway, have you actually experienced Blizzard run an actual league? They are terrible at running an actual tournament. Blizzard are clueless about esports. They have always been. It is not just that they don't care, which is true. They also are incompetent. Blizzard doesn't want good maps on ladder because those are too hard for beginning players, for example. Not only does that show their true intentions, it also shows their ignorance.
Legitimize? So SC BW in NA was legit, but in SK it wasn't? American companies? Haha.
On October 20 2010 07:08 Meriones wrote: I am not saying the gomtv league was bad. They had Flash, Jaedong, Stork, those are good players and it was fun even though it was easier to win.
The point was many of these people couldn't enjoy watching Korean matches without English commentary. So they started to watch Gomtv. Then when it had to be shut down because of Blizzard they were mad, and had to stop watching. Now with SC2 they are back and raging against Kespa together with some other confused people who are still mad their favorite player (backho) got QDed.
im not sure where you get ur info sir, and i dont have any links to back myself up either. but last i checked gom classic was shut down by kespa not blizzard. they had flash stork and jaedong till kespa took them away. but theres no reason to argue without concrete evidence. heres the best i got, casue i havent even looked:
or more specifically: "In the past, there was a case where Gretech's Gom Classic was boycotted. I wonder if this was something done to minimize that kind of damages. It's likely a policy to have their Starcraft 2 league operate safely"
and i still dont buy ur "people were sad casue they codulnt watch BW in english anymore" argument. youtube is a lot easier to find then gomtv.net. i think most people started watching BW through youtube and then discovered gom through shutouts from colera and moletrap.
found some more reputable people saying kespa boycoted (aka banned players from participating in) the gom classic.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=148991 "The negotiations also included things related to the GSL. Regarding the GSL, Gretech has said "If Proleague goes on without any monetary reimbursement, then from our position, we can end up in a position where we're not guaranteed any profits as GSL can be damaged because of the Proleague", adding that "Because KeSPA has boycotted the GomTV Classic in the past, the GSL can be damaged again due to the Proleague schedule". Responding to this, KeSPA has revealed that "Because we have decided to pay a usage fee for the Intellectual property for the Proleague, we have no reason to promote Starcraft 2 or help GomTV. If Gretech is like this, then there isn't any more point of negotiations".
if you dont belive my links, belive logic. why would gom and blizzard be sitting in a tree, k i s s i n g , if blizzard has harmed gom in the past. if i remember correctly, gom classic was SPONSORED by blizzard...
Blizzard force Kespa to support the teams in boycotting Gomtv classic. Read my posts before you respond. I never said they didn't. Again, Judas kiss. I even bolded it. Now I could make a stupid simple analogy, but I won't. If you still don't get it then I simply don't care. Not going to go that low.
Blizzard knew Kespa would do this. Gomtv probably knew it too. It's not like Kespa had any choice.
Blizzard is the reason Kespa isn't running a professional SC2 league. It is why we have Gretech with many semi-professional players that requires us to pay for a laggy stream.
And i thank blizzard for that. I do not want SC2 run the same way BW was. Besides, i trust SC2 in blizzard's hands more then i trust it in KESPA's . And i would rather pay for a stream honestly. Blizzard is trying to legitimize espots. having enough paying customers helps that goal more then anything. soon with the exposure these games are getting, english streams are gona have american companies sponsoring them, and esports will actually be a legitimate sport. Maybe even ESPN will start broadcasting it. thats farr off in the future if it even happens at all, but having people pay for quality content will get esports there faster. keyword there ofcorse is QUALITY, which the gom streams have not been. But they are improving, we should give them a bit more patience...
I don't see how having a bunch of amateur (or semi-professional at best) players delve into prize hunting monthly on an internet stream is legitimizing esports, tbh. ;o
As far as I'm concerned, creating professional teams with steady salaries, secondary line-ups and practice partners, with transparent rules as regards becoming a progamer, leagues broadcasted on the TV, and ties with the government is much closer to "legitimizing esports" than blizzard's backwards thinking. ;;
So you basically do not want sc2 to be run like BW. You have the games be broadcasted on the TV eventually and be monetized for that, while you're going to watch amateurs compete in a blizzard sanctioned league with their crappy maps until they get tired of the lack of stability and perspectives for the future.
Well, I'll gladly stick to BW. You can have your sc2. ;]
Yeah, good point. What we have seen from Jaedong's parents so far, they would never allow him to compete in SC2 under such poor and unstable conditions. Especially knowing the prize pool is basically coming from Blizzard's marketing budget. And Blizzard isn't here to do charity, as kespa is. They are here to make money.
If Blizzard succeeds in destroying SC BW we will never see Jaedong play again, I am sure of that.
How do you(jaedong) see the future of StarCraft: BroodWar and will you change to StarCraft 2? - I will definitely change to StarCraft II as I feel that StarCraft 2 is having a higher status then StarCraft: Broodwar. We will see more international tournaments in SC2 compared to StarCraft: Broodwar and this will make the change natural for me. I want to build my reputation abroad and reach out to the international audience but when I decide to change game I can not say, it can be today, it can be tomorrow it can be in a couple of years.
really, i think people should post sources if they have something to say here...
It is better to post no sources than to post wrong and irrelevant ones.
Anyway, I don't even need sources. I am either giving my opinion or stating obvious facts.
It must be hard to reconstruct everything when you weren't here when it all happened. I don't blame you. There must be like 20 news posts about Kespa and gomtv/Blizzard negotiations. But at least trust a bit in those who have been part of this scene.
Blizzard is the reason Kespa isn't running a professional SC2 league. It is why we have Gretech with many semi-professional players that requires us to pay for a laggy stream.
And i thank blizzard for that. I do not want SC2 run the same way BW was. Besides, i trust SC2 in blizzard's hands more then i trust it in KESPA's . And i would rather pay for a stream honestly. Blizzard is trying to legitimize espots. having enough paying customers helps that goal more then anything. soon with the exposure these games are getting, english streams are gona have american companies sponsoring them, and esports will actually be a legitimate sport. Maybe even ESPN will start broadcasting it. thats farr off in the future if it even happens at all, but having people pay for quality content will get esports there faster. keyword there ofcorse is QUALITY, which the gom streams have not been. But they are improving, we should give them a bit more patience...
I don't see how having a bunch of amateur (or semi-professional at best) players delve into prize hunting monthly on an internet stream is legitimizing esports, tbh. ;o
As far as I'm concerned, creating professional teams with steady salaries, secondary line-ups and practice partners, with transparent rules as regards becoming a progamer, leagues broadcasted on the TV, and ties with the government is much closer to "legitimizing esports" than blizzard's backwards thinking. ;;
So you basically do not want sc2 to be run like BW. You have the games be broadcasted on the TV eventually and be monetized for that, while you're going to watch amateurs compete in a blizzard sanctioned league with their crappy maps until they get tired of the lack of stability and perspectives for the future.
Well, I'll gladly stick to BW. You can have your sc2. ;]
well uve given urself away as a diehard bw fan already. but ill entertain myself by answering some of these points anyway.
having a bunch of amatures hunting prize money is the definition of legitimizing sports. the spirit of any sport is that anyone can compete. if you are good enough to take the money its urs. it should always be that simple. with enough time and evolution of the game only pros will be able to take that money. so im sure there wount be too many amateurs on ESPN, and if there are they will have deserved to be there.
are you saying SC2 doesnt have pro teams? oGs? TSL? WeRRa? Nex? just because they arent owned by gaint corporations yet doesnt mean they arent professional teams complete with coaches practice partners etc... and how are ties to the government good for anything? tho id need a source to talk about governments more...
BW had crappy maps too till KESPA took over. i do respect them for that, but remember where BW started. KESPA isnt some magical association of map faeries. blizzard can make better more balanced and interesting maps too if they care. now they do.
On October 20 2010 07:44 Meriones wrote: It is better to post no sources than to post wrong and irrelevant ones.
Anyway, I don't even need sources. I am either giving my opinion or stating obvious facts.
It must be hard to reconstruct everything when you weren't here when it all happened. I don't blame you. There must be like 20 news posts about Kespa and gomtv/Blizzard negotiations. But at least trust a bit in those who have been part of this scene.
i admit i havent been in the scene from the start. but ive been there for 4 years, long enough to witness gom's attempts at having their own league crushed by kespa.
No. The link he posted has nothing to do with Gomtv classic and is about SC2. Back when the 3 seasons of Gomtv classic happened conflicting with proleague wasn't an issue. That's why I said he posted the wrong source. You need to go back a year to find the news posts about gomtv. Anyway, even back then we didn't know what exactly was being negotiated about. And only halfway season 3 Blizzard suddenly started to sponsor and Blizzard logo's suddenly were everywhere.
Blizzard is the reason Kespa isn't running a professional SC2 league. It is why we have Gretech with many semi-professional players that requires us to pay for a laggy stream.
And i thank blizzard for that. I do not want SC2 run the same way BW was. Besides, i trust SC2 in blizzard's hands more then i trust it in KESPA's . And i would rather pay for a stream honestly. Blizzard is trying to legitimize espots. having enough paying customers helps that goal more then anything. soon with the exposure these games are getting, english streams are gona have american companies sponsoring them, and esports will actually be a legitimate sport. Maybe even ESPN will start broadcasting it. thats farr off in the future if it even happens at all, but having people pay for quality content will get esports there faster. keyword there ofcorse is QUALITY, which the gom streams have not been. But they are improving, we should give them a bit more patience...
Posts like this makes me so mad. Please stop being blind. KeSPA has its faults but its as close so a legitimate eSports organization there is, not Blizzard throwing a bit of money at an inexperienced company to run some tournaments which are not even on TV in Korea let alone ESPN. You need to educate yourself if you believe things are going anywhere at all in the direction you are suggesting. Clearly you don't have a clue of the success and sustainability BW already had (before blizzards negative involvement). Do you really see 100,000 people turning up live to an SC2 event EVER? Not to mention it was even free to go? THAT'S how eSports can be run. Not making us pay monthly for streams just to watch some semi-amateurs play.
Here would be the ideal situation. Blizzard re-considers and gives KeSPA control over SC2 for a license fee. As part of the agreement, a joint foreigner/chinese/english-speaking korean team is added as a KeSPA sponsored team (maybe even by Blizzard itself?). All teams created SC2 divisions and progamer licenses and drafting methods carry over. OSL/MSL/Proleague begin for SC2 and run alongside BW, sharing existing viewers and creating new viewers. Also as a last bonus for blizzard, English commentators, and maybe even Chinese are recruited for all events and online streams are provided for international viewers, which can be pay only if they really must. This is now a 100% sustainable scene free from Blizzards control to stop things whenever they like, appeals to 3 major audiences, and it costs significantly less than even running it all seperate right now. All the big players are free to play the game they choose too.
Think how seriously awesome this would be. And the single entity stopping this from becoming reality is Blizzard, who seems to believe that constantly free publicity, advertisement AND licensing fee's is not enough for them they want literally full control. The scene will never achieve its potential like this unless they are willing to concede something which will end up in their benefit anyway.
After X amounts of years under Kespa's rule, we had almost zero content for foreign followers. We had to depend on very dedicated individuals that would record the games on their PCs and upload them to youtube, or mailing lists. And then having another set of dedicated followers, comment them in a common language. None of this was supported by Kespa nor any of the big TV stations , aka the money. 6 months after the release of SC2 under gretech, we have high quality video available real time commented on english. Yes we have to pay for it. but the price is not a deal breaker.
As a foreign spectator with 15 dollars to spare every 2 moths, I like how things are under Gretech. I find it hard to justify a system that have kept me on the dark as an e-sport spectator for so long.
Kespa would have a much better standing along the international community, if they had invested in us, setting up streams, VOD, english commentators. Instead they chose not to.
agreed. and infinity, its useless to speculate that far into the future. i realize i did that too saying SC2 will be on ESPN lol, but that was to help a point, not a point in itself. Yes if kespa retained control things would run smooth as they have for BW. but kespa CLEARLY has very low if any interest in spreading esports outside of korea. they are the KOREAN eSports Assosiation afterall. at least blizzard wants to grow esports internationally... oh and lets not forget THEY MADE THE GAME. ya gota thik that they understand their own game better then kespa does, and know whats best for it.
one thing is for certain tho. The way things are now is deffinietly not the way things will be a year from now. wether kespa or blizzard gets control, things will change. blizard wount be stuborn and run things their way just for the hell of it... they are reasonable people. if a pro gaming license is a good idea (i dont believe it is) blizzard will implement it.
and really people stop complaining about 15$ per tournament at gomTV. get a few freinds, split the cost. paying to view this tournament is not a big deal... probably half the reason they even make people pay is kespa is in their way.
The terms revealed were: Each tournament fees 1 won, broadcasting fee, 100 million won, contract validity to be 1 year, rights to the broadcasting products to be 50:50, and acknowledging the IP rights.
So they pay for the rights to broadcast but Gretech gets to decide on what's on 50% of the adverts as well?
Wtf? How much money does Gretech really want?
So on top of 50% of control over what's advertised they want 100mil won for EVERY league..Has anyone done the numbers?
Does this include things like heritage league and STX masters cups and such? Does it include allstar matches?
If it does then it really adds up..like 100mil*(3*OSL + 3*MSL + 3*Proleague + STX Masters + Allstar) = over a billion won in a year...
...but then Gretech can jack the price again because it has to be renegotiated every year.
hmm
I think, they should go to court...This 3rd party business "selected by blizzard lol" sounds like a farce.
Settle this once and for all!
P.S. Bring back MSL..
It is 1 won per tournament (OSL, MSL, Proleague, STX Masters, Allstar) 100 million for broadcasting rights (which work for any tournament that they broadcast) So its basically 100 million won + 50% advertising control. Seems reasonable, especially when you look at what IEG/Kespa's demands were back in 2007 (and kespa still hasnt delivered on any of their promises of globalizing esports) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=50956¤tpage=2#36 Give it a read, very interesting for those that dont know what happened 3 years ago.
Baldey, blizzard can't implement a progaming license... LOL. It's a status acknowledged by the Korean government, which KeSPA is accredited by. Before the recent tax change, progaming license meant quite big priviliges. Currently it still gives players an advantage over non-licensed players but not as big as it used to.
The terms revealed were: Each tournament fees 1 won, broadcasting fee, 100 million won, contract validity to be 1 year, rights to the broadcasting products to be 50:50, and acknowledging the IP rights.
So they pay for the rights to broadcast but Gretech gets to decide on what's on 50% of the adverts as well?
Wtf? How much money does Gretech really want?
So on top of 50% of control over what's advertised they want 100mil won for EVERY league..Has anyone done the numbers?
Does this include things like heritage league and STX masters cups and such? Does it include allstar matches?
If it does then it really adds up..like 100mil*(3*OSL + 3*MSL + 3*Proleague + STX Masters + Allstar) = over a billion won in a year...
...but then Gretech can jack the price again because it has to be renegotiated every year.
hmm
I think, they should go to court...This 3rd party business "selected by blizzard lol" sounds like a farce.
Settle this once and for all!
P.S. Bring back MSL..
It is 1 won per tournament (OSL, MSL, Proleague, STX Masters, Allstar) 100 million for broadcasting rights (which work for any tournament that they broadcast) So its basically 100 million won + 50% advertising control. Seems reasonable, especially when you look at what IEG/Kespa's demands were back in 2007 (and kespa still hasnt delivered on any of their promises of globalizing esports) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=50956¤tpage=2#36 Give it a read, very interesting for those that dont know what happened 3 years ago.
No, it's not 50% "advertising control" - it's 50% "everything" control. It means gretech can veto any decision made by KeSPA/broadcasters regarding the leagues. They'd also have the right to 50% of profits from KeSPA/OGN/MBC work, from what I understand.
How is that fair?
Not to mention the fact that they'd have to renegotiate the terms every year. ;;
yes i realize the kespa pro gaming licence is a big deal. but thats like saying i have a forum, so u cant have one either. blizzard or anyone elce for that matter could easily implement a system much like the kespa licence thats very hard to obtain and is prestigious with benefits. question is do they need to. and i dont think they do personally... but if they decide otherwise, its not that hard to make up a buncha rules and form something like the kespa pro gamer license system. maybe it wont be associated with the korean government, maybe it will. but who gives a shit about the korean government?
infact mr Meriones, i respect ur oppinions but you had to go and call me stupid. so, just for you...
On October 20 2010 06:50 Meriones wrote: Anyway, only stupid people hate Kespa. Kespa isn't some evil organization. It is a body sanctioned by the government in which all parties have seats.
On October 20 2010 16:40 Baldey wrote: yes i realize the kespa pro gaming licence is a big deal. but thats like saying i have a forum, so u cant have one either. blizzard or anyone elce for that matter could easily implement a system much like the kespa licence thats very hard to obtain and is prestigious with benefits. question is do they need to. and i dont think they do personally... but if they decide otherwise, its not that hard to make up a buncha rules and form something like the kespa pro gamer license system. maybe it wont be associated with the korean government, maybe it will. but who gives a shit about the korean government?
No, you don't get it.
KeSPA has ties with the Korean government. Blizzard can't do shit. How on earth are they going to grant anyone any benefits regarding e.g. taxes? In any country for that matter... So what benefits will blizzard's progaming licenses grant? Discount from all their products? SC2 themed keyboards? Bnet icons? Don't make me laugh. ^_______^
I guess Korea does give a shit about its government. And blizzard apparently does give a shit about Korea. T_____T
are there any other benefits coming from ties with the government besides taxes? cause blizzard could do that easy, by paying licence holders money equal to a tax break. yes koreans give a shit about their government. and yes blizzard gives a shit about korea, and probably even their government, just not as much as koreans.
On October 20 2010 11:32 battarro wrote: After X amounts of years under Kespa's rule, we had almost zero content for foreign followers. We had to depend on very dedicated individuals that would record the games on their PCs and upload them to youtube, or mailing lists. And then having another set of dedicated followers, comment them in a common language. None of this was supported by Kespa nor any of the big TV stations , aka the money. 6 months after the release of SC2 under gretech, we have high quality video available real time commented on english. Yes we have to pay for it. but the price is not a deal breaker.
As a foreign spectator with 15 dollars to spare every 2 moths, I like how things are under Gretech. I find it hard to justify a system that have kept me on the dark as an e-sport spectator for so long.
Kespa would have a much better standing along the international community, if they had invested in us, setting up streams, VOD, english commentators. Instead they chose not to.
Not this stupidity again. Do you know what the K in KeSPA stands for? Why the fuck would they invest in us? If KeSPA was allowed to i'm pretty sure they would try to expand in SC2's case anyway, especially into Chinese and then maybe English. Doing some English casts and streams is not a big deal and they could easily come to and agree with Blizzard regarding that. But considering there's no chance for them to even try and make terms other than Blizzards completely ridiculous full control ones, we can't see it happen anyway.
Would you really expect any international support from KeSPA now they've been completely shut out of anything regarding SC2? Things have to go 2 ways for shit like this to work.
On October 20 2010 13:41 Baldey wrote: agreed. and infinity, its useless to speculate that far into the future. i realize i did that too saying SC2 will be on ESPN lol, but that was to help a point, not a point in itself. Yes if kespa retained control things would run smooth as they have for BW. but kespa CLEARLY has very low if any interest in spreading esports outside of korea. they are the KOREAN eSports Assosiation afterall. at least blizzard wants to grow esports internationally... oh and lets not forget THEY MADE THE GAME. ya gota thik that they understand their own game better then kespa does, and know whats best for it.
one thing is for certain tho. The way things are now is deffinietly not the way things will be a year from now. wether kespa or blizzard gets control, things will change. blizard wount be stuborn and run things their way just for the hell of it... they are reasonable people. if a pro gaming license is a good idea (i dont believe it is) blizzard will implement it.
and really people stop complaining about 15$ per tournament at gomTV. get a few freinds, split the cost. paying to view this tournament is not a big deal... probably half the reason they even make people pay is kespa is in their way.
Like i said IF there had become a reasonable agreement, IF then international support could have been asked by Blizzard and that would have been a reasonable request that would have been granted and been probably better than the amateur set-up they have at Gretech anyway. I dunno why people have such a hard-on for any form of English commentary when most of it is shit in the first place. I want some actual insight into games not Artosis and Tasteless making dumb jokes, faking exciting and telling us how high level some play is that any diamond level could do.
kespa has already been asked once for international support, and they promised it 3 years ago. nothing yet! that k really has to go...
and im a diamond player, as are the majority of people on this forum. i cant do the things most of these players do in my dreams, and im not one of those one trick pony diamonds either. yes sometimes tasteless and artosis make complete fools of themselves. but thats a risk ya take while you are doing their job. and making the game seem exciting is also part of their job description, tho to me they dont have to try as hard as they do. and artosis actually always has good advice. tasteless is kinda a nub, but as artosis says hes charming. english cometary just adds another dimension on top of just watching a replay. + all the player info they give, talk about maps all the in between shit. All that to most people including myself is entertaining. If its not to you, no one is making you watch. no one is giving you replays either, but if i was fruit dealer id guard those with my life too.
Baldey, your opinion is just extremely strange and you never explain why you have them. You never tried to defend it.
You want Blizzard to take a cut from the money the teams get from sponsors. Then you want the broadcasting rights to go for free to MBC and OGN. And then I bet you want Blizzard to get a huge part of the profit MBC and OGN are making. And then you want Kespa to invest in the US? And you want B teamers to make more money? This is all so contradictory. That's why it is stupid and that's why you shouldn't even be offended when I say it. How will the players get paid? How will Kespa have any money to invest? And why should they? Did the US government ask them? And why do you want forprofit organizations like OGN/MBC to make even easier money when those that actually bear the burden or esports and are nonprofit you want to screw over financially? You really want to keep SC BW going without Kespa because you think it would be better that way? That seems to be your view.
Also, there's nothing to stop you from forming the North American Esports association. In fact, I think those involved in NA and Europe should start their own kespa's as soon as possible. And I also think players should start a esports player union right now. This isn't being done, which makes me sad. But Blizzard probably wouldn't allow it.
Now just imagine SC2 where Blizzard uses the current esports infrastructure. It would have been so so much better. No, they start from scratch and try to destroy that what is already there. Remember that video where they discussed the effects from the gambling scandal? What Blizzard did is way worse than the scandal could ever have done. And all over setting a new even mere extreme copyright precedent. But no, people think Blizzard does it because Kespa doesn't invest in the US and because of progamer working conditions. So absurd.
kespa has proven to me they can not be trusted. i gladly watch them be destroyed. but no, i dont want any of those things. well maybe i want some, i didnt read half, because i only want one thing: kespa to die. i dont care who has control, just not them. i trust the company who made every game in my personal top 5 favorite games... its too early to talk about what blizzard is GOING to do, but we can talk about what kespa HAS done.
I don't think there's any point in a discussion with you as you have no idea what is going on or the actual money involved in any part of this. What KeSPA HAS done: made the most well organized, popular and self-sustainable eSports scene thats ever existed. What Blizzard HAS done: ignored it completely and laid out plans which cannot last forever and which benefit nobody except themselves and the few gamers who are top of the scene and collect the huge majority of prize money. Try and look past your blizzard = good shit and see what's actually happening here, which is Blizzard and Gretech attempting to siphon profit from a completely financially unstable market.
Edit: Also lets not even start on BNet 2.0 if you seriously think blizzard in anyway cares about international eSports.
i could study up on the money, but i dont think that matters. gom is clearly out to destroy kespa. just because they have their demands doesnt mean they will go through with them. and its not that hard to make a sustainable esports market for a company, when theres already a huge fanbase. im sure blizzard can make a very sustainable esports market from the ashes of kespa. the fans and the players arent going anywhere, only kespa and their shitty practice is. whatever blizzards demands are, when push comes to shove im sure they wount destroy themselves. they arent idiots, and its not just 1 person makin decisions here either... pritty sure they are smarter then all of us, so saying blizzard is going to kill esports is absurd.
kespa wouldn't kill esports either, im nto syaing they will. im sure if kespa survives, esports will be just as big if not bigger then they have been. the question isnt wether esports will survive... the question is wether kespa should survive.
On October 18 2010 15:13 aimaimaim wrote: If Gretech wins this, after a year or so, Blizzard can now leave gretech and get money straight from kespa and they can charge more and more until there isn't going to be PL. Think about it, If the rights are "recognized" then any game developer that has its product being used in Televised E-sports can charge big money for it. Making it very hard to organize leagues. Even if the leagues will continue, there will be cost cutting from the organizers until its dead. Both in Korea and in Abroad, because Blizzard is an american company.
So they will charge more and more because they are so greedy until PL shuts down? That doesn't make any sense.
Especially when they could, ya know, charge a fair price, keep PL running, and keep getting money.
That's like Blizzard saying "we have 8 million WoW subscribers now, think how much we could make if we charged $100 a month!". No, that's not how it works, they charge the same $15 a month that every other shitty/failed mmo charges because it's a fair price and the fair price makes them bookoos of money.
On October 20 2010 22:02 infinity2k9 wrote: I don't think there's any point in a discussion with you as you have no idea what is going on or the actual money involved in any part of this. What KeSPA HAS done: made the most well organized, popular and self-sustainable eSports scene thats ever existed. What Blizzard HAS done: ignored it completely and laid out plans which cannot last forever and which benefit nobody except themselves and the few gamers who are top of the scene and collect the huge majority of prize money. Try and look past your blizzard = good shit and see what's actually happening here, which is Blizzard and Gretech attempting to siphon profit from a completely financially unstable market.
Edit: Also lets not even start on BNet 2.0 if you seriously think blizzard in anyway cares about international eSports.
You forgot the part where Blizzard made the game the KeSPA built everything on. You're acting like Blizzard is just some completely random company that had nothing to do with Starcraft and they stepped in trying to force their way. lol
On October 21 2010 04:57 Baldey wrote: i could study up on the money, but i dont think that matters. gom is clearly out to destroy kespa. just because they have their demands doesnt mean they will go through with them. and its not that hard to make a sustainable esports market for a company, when theres already a huge fanbase. im sure blizzard can make a very sustainable esports market from the ashes of kespa. the fans and the players arent going anywhere, only kespa and their shitty practice is. whatever blizzards demands are, when push comes to shove im sure they wount destroy themselves. they arent idiots, and its not just 1 person makin decisions here either... pritty sure they are smarter then all of us, so saying blizzard is going to kill esports is absurd.
kespa wouldn't kill esports either, im nto syaing they will. im sure if kespa survives, esports will be just as big if not bigger then they have been. the question isnt wether esports will survive... the question is wether kespa should survive.
Pretty much this, Blizzard, Starcraft 2, and esports in general do not need them.
On October 20 2010 22:02 infinity2k9 wrote: I don't think there's any point in a discussion with you as you have no idea what is going on or the actual money involved in any part of this. What KeSPA HAS done: made the most well organized, popular and self-sustainable eSports scene thats ever existed. What Blizzard HAS done: ignored it completely and laid out plans which cannot last forever and which benefit nobody except themselves and the few gamers who are top of the scene and collect the huge majority of prize money. Try and look past your blizzard = good shit and see what's actually happening here, which is Blizzard and Gretech attempting to siphon profit from a completely financially unstable market.
Edit: Also lets not even start on BNet 2.0 if you seriously think blizzard in anyway cares about international eSports.
You forgot the part where Blizzard made the game the KeSPA built everything on. You're acting like Blizzard is just some completely random company that had nothing to do with Starcraft and they stepped in trying to force their way. lol
Yeah Blizzard is a game developer. That's all they are and all they should be.
On October 18 2010 15:13 aimaimaim wrote: If Gretech wins this, after a year or so, Blizzard can now leave gretech and get money straight from kespa and they can charge more and more until there isn't going to be PL. Think about it, If the rights are "recognized" then any game developer that has its product being used in Televised E-sports can charge big money for it. Making it very hard to organize leagues. Even if the leagues will continue, there will be cost cutting from the organizers until its dead. Both in Korea and in Abroad, because Blizzard is an american company.
So they will charge more and more because they are so greedy until PL shuts down? That doesn't make any sense.
Especially when they could, ya know, charge a fair price, keep PL running, and keep getting money.
That's like Blizzard saying "we have 8 million WoW subscribers now, think how much we could make if we charged $100 a month!". No, that's not how it works, they charge the same $15 a month that every other shitty/failed mmo charges because it's a fair price and the fair price makes them bookoos of money.
Except, to keep PL running, it actually probably needs more money invested and not less. As soon as they realise this, they'll be going with a train of thought that SC2 fans bombard the BW forums every day: "What if all of these pros switched to SC2? Wouldn't that be AWESOME?" They have not shown any sign of long term commitment, only short term gain orientation and hopes someone else will do the dirty work for them.
Is the first time i complain to a forum about a company, Blizzard, when we buyed their games only copywrite was in the cover and nothing else. Trying to mess into another party created league and the same time is allowing many leagues world wide about their new game. Their clames of IP rignts is rude hypocrisy and they must stay focus only in their league.
On October 20 2010 22:02 infinity2k9 wrote: I don't think there's any point in a discussion with you as you have no idea what is going on or the actual money involved in any part of this. What KeSPA HAS done: made the most well organized, popular and self-sustainable eSports scene thats ever existed. What Blizzard HAS done: ignored it completely and laid out plans which cannot last forever and which benefit nobody except themselves and the few gamers who are top of the scene and collect the huge majority of prize money. Try and look past your blizzard = good shit and see what's actually happening here, which is Blizzard and Gretech attempting to siphon profit from a completely financially unstable market.
Edit: Also lets not even start on BNet 2.0 if you seriously think blizzard in anyway cares about international eSports.
You forgot the part where Blizzard made the game the KeSPA built everything on. You're acting like Blizzard is just some completely random company that had nothing to do with Starcraft and they stepped in trying to force their way. lol
Yeah Blizzard is a game developer. That's all they are and all they should be.
Fortunately you have no say in that, they are making far too much money to stay "just a game developer", it would be incredibly stupid for them to not expand their horizons.
On October 18 2010 15:13 aimaimaim wrote: If Gretech wins this, after a year or so, Blizzard can now leave gretech and get money straight from kespa and they can charge more and more until there isn't going to be PL. Think about it, If the rights are "recognized" then any game developer that has its product being used in Televised E-sports can charge big money for it. Making it very hard to organize leagues. Even if the leagues will continue, there will be cost cutting from the organizers until its dead. Both in Korea and in Abroad, because Blizzard is an american company.
So they will charge more and more because they are so greedy until PL shuts down? That doesn't make any sense.
Especially when they could, ya know, charge a fair price, keep PL running, and keep getting money.
That's like Blizzard saying "we have 8 million WoW subscribers now, think how much we could make if we charged $100 a month!". No, that's not how it works, they charge the same $15 a month that every other shitty/failed mmo charges because it's a fair price and the fair price makes them bookoos of money.
Except, to keep PL running, it actually probably needs more money invested and not less. As soon as they realise this, they'll be going with a train of thought that SC2 fans bombard the BW forums every day: "What if all of these pros switched to SC2? Wouldn't that be AWESOME?" They have not shown any sign of long term commitment, only short term gain orientation and hopes someone else will do the dirty work for them.
Blizzard has shown long term commitment with every game they have developed, and they are investing quite a bit into GSL. What are you wanting them to do? Come out and say "we promise to do this for a really long time"? It's easy to talk shit about Blizzard but you might want to take into consideration that there isn't a single other game developer out there that makes a good competitive, esports quality RTS. Not even close.
On October 18 2010 15:13 aimaimaim wrote: If Gretech wins this, after a year or so, Blizzard can now leave gretech and get money straight from kespa and they can charge more and more until there isn't going to be PL. Think about it, If the rights are "recognized" then any game developer that has its product being used in Televised E-sports can charge big money for it. Making it very hard to organize leagues. Even if the leagues will continue, there will be cost cutting from the organizers until its dead. Both in Korea and in Abroad, because Blizzard is an american company.
So they will charge more and more because they are so greedy until PL shuts down? That doesn't make any sense.
Especially when they could, ya know, charge a fair price, keep PL running, and keep getting money.
That's like Blizzard saying "we have 8 million WoW subscribers now, think how much we could make if we charged $100 a month!". No, that's not how it works, they charge the same $15 a month that every other shitty/failed mmo charges because it's a fair price and the fair price makes them bookoos of money.
Except, to keep PL running, it actually probably needs more money invested and not less. As soon as they realise this, they'll be going with a train of thought that SC2 fans bombard the BW forums every day: "What if all of these pros switched to SC2? Wouldn't that be AWESOME?" They have not shown any sign of long term commitment, only short term gain orientation and hopes someone else will do the dirty work for them.
Blizzard has shown long term commitment with every game they have developed, and they are investing quite a bit into GSL. What are you wanting them to do? Come out and say "we promise to do this for a really long time"? It's easy to talk shit about Blizzard but you might want to take into consideration that there isn't a single other game developer out there that makes a good competitive, esports quality RTS. Not even close.
Listen to what you are saying, you are talking about an entirely different thing. Making and balancing a game (which I'd actually argue they've become progressively worse at) is entirely different from establishing and financing a stable proscene. I have no idea how much is being invested into the GSL, but I severely doubt we're going to be seeing an official "Blizzard Frosties" SC1 team ever. Money demands and control demands from a scene that is already in financial trouble is also not of much assistance to the actual players who are currently afraid for their jobs.
As for SC2, Blizzard has shown that control is it's priority at the moment, not a stable proscene. The GSL system is one of bountyhunting, and funding an actual teamleague needs better efforts than shooing 11 potential huge sponsors away from it. What are the signs of long term commitment you've seen? Do you really think the situation that we're currently moving towards is beneficial for both SC1 and SC2? And do you have any other reasoning behind your arguments other than being a fanboy?
oh mustaju ur defending team leagues and not kespa? then were talking abotu different things. i think team leagues are a good idea, ive always enjoyed watching them in BW. but if blizzard kills kespa, they dont have to kill team leagues. they will probably end up dying somewhere along the way, but reborn again in a year or two in SC2. cycle of life baby. cant watch flash play BW forever.
On October 20 2010 22:02 infinity2k9 wrote: I don't think there's any point in a discussion with you as you have no idea what is going on or the actual money involved in any part of this. What KeSPA HAS done: made the most well organized, popular and self-sustainable eSports scene thats ever existed. What Blizzard HAS done: ignored it completely and laid out plans which cannot last forever and which benefit nobody except themselves and the few gamers who are top of the scene and collect the huge majority of prize money. Try and look past your blizzard = good shit and see what's actually happening here, which is Blizzard and Gretech attempting to siphon profit from a completely financially unstable market.
Edit: Also lets not even start on BNet 2.0 if you seriously think blizzard in anyway cares about international eSports.
International E-Sports? What has KESPA done for international E-sport: release some vods in Korean for 1,000 obsessed Starcraft fans to watch every week.
What Blizzard has done for international E-sport: created a tournament series watched by 100,000 people around the world.
On October 20 2010 22:02 infinity2k9 wrote: I don't think there's any point in a discussion with you as you have no idea what is going on or the actual money involved in any part of this. What KeSPA HAS done: made the most well organized, popular and self-sustainable eSports scene thats ever existed. What Blizzard HAS done: ignored it completely and laid out plans which cannot last forever and which benefit nobody except themselves and the few gamers who are top of the scene and collect the huge majority of prize money. Try and look past your blizzard = good shit and see what's actually happening here, which is Blizzard and Gretech attempting to siphon profit from a completely financially unstable market.
Edit: Also lets not even start on BNet 2.0 if you seriously think blizzard in anyway cares about international eSports.
International E-Sports? What has KESPA done for international E-sport: release some vods in Korean for 1,000 obsessed Starcraft fans to watch every week.
What Blizzard has done for international E-sport: created a tournament series watched by 100,000 people around the world.
KeSPA has helped other countries (such as the UK or Japan) create their own progaming associations, made deals with Chinese broadcasters, sent their players to BlizzCon as well as various countries in the region to promote esports, helped organize various international events in Asia, loddbied for classifying esports as a sport discipline in various Asian countries (afaik), helped promising foreigners join the progaming teams in Korea, and probably much more I'm not aware of.
Not to mention they hardly got any money out of that, while gretech/blizzard are milking their customers left and right.
Blizzard also removed LAN from sc2 (it was available in earlier builds), did not implement cross-server play, which used to be a standard in their games, did not include any chatrooms, made a crappy ranking system that makes it nearly impossible to track your own progress or see who the top players are on the ladder.
What do people actually wanted KESPA to do in Europe/NA? SC BW was extremely unpopular compared to SC2 right now. We had like 1000 or 2000 people watching major matches on this site. And this site was like the only SC BW site on the net.
It is just not viable financially. Esports in Korea already can't break even. They have a few huge players with huge salaries. Why do you want them to send those players to Europe/NA where no one will come and watch? And it's not like NA/European players could put up an opposition. And if you sent Korean amateurs vs NA/European amateurs then you have better matches, but you play vs someone that.s no.500 in Korea.
Blizzard/Gretech needs to charge money with SC2 in NA/Europe because it is not financially viable. But you wanted Kespa to do it for free with a 10 year old game? That's absurd.
Ooh and people like Baldey and Treemonkeys are purely anti-esports. Blizzard has done shit for SC BW esports. They only did negative things. They also basically ruined SC2's potential as an esports because of money reasons, like maybenexttime mentioned.
The Koreans basically invented esports. Kespa embodies their ideas about esports. "Kespa and their shitty practices"? You people keep saying Kespa does things bad but never is pointed out what is bad about them. Kespa and SC BW are the no.1 example of succesful esports. There's no other case that can compare or come even close. And you want the west and Blizzard to try it completely different?
This is just blind hate for Kespa and blind hate for Blizzard and it makes me sick. I think you guys are traitors. Blizzard clearly put a knife in our backs and you guys are loving it. You weren't here when Blizzard gave us shit all the time. When they called Iccup a pirate server, when they banned people for using Low Latency, when they refused to do anything about hackers, when they patched the game up so Korea had to use an older patch, etc etc. Also, don't forget the game speed issue way way back. Blizzard forced us to play at the wrong speed, on the wrong maps with the wrong balance. Then, they left it alone and Korea did their thing. Blizzard never even acknowledged that.
Blizzcon tournaments were the worst tournaments in the world. Blizzard didn't even know what observer maps are. They don't know what players are good, Korea or foreign. They have commentators sit next to the players so they can't even mention anything besides play by play, etc. And they keep trying to push that shitty WoW game down our throats.
I remember back in school in the days of WC2, Diablo and SC where I championed Blizzard for all my friends. But right now I will dance on my grave when they go broke. They are already making a loss. They already took way too much money to make a technically simple game. When WoW starts dying and their new MMO can't reach 1/5th of the success of WoW they are going down. They gave the WoW money to their stockholders who will abandon them really really quickly.
When Blizzard is dead the competitive RTS genre will open to all other dev studios that right now don't dare to compete with Blizzard. S2 for example could make a better competitive RTS than Blizzard. They don't need to cater to casual players. They know how no maphack and low latency matters.
We all thought SC2 would be unplayable with lan latency. But there is so little micro in SC2 it really doesn't really matter. That's sick. Especially after they killed of macro. You people don't know how mechanically tense SC BW was. SC2 is nothing like that at all..
On October 20 2010 22:02 infinity2k9 wrote: I don't think there's any point in a discussion with you as you have no idea what is going on or the actual money involved in any part of this. What KeSPA HAS done: made the most well organized, popular and self-sustainable eSports scene thats ever existed. What Blizzard HAS done: ignored it completely and laid out plans which cannot last forever and which benefit nobody except themselves and the few gamers who are top of the scene and collect the huge majority of prize money. Try and look past your blizzard = good shit and see what's actually happening here, which is Blizzard and Gretech attempting to siphon profit from a completely financially unstable market.
Edit: Also lets not even start on BNet 2.0 if you seriously think blizzard in anyway cares about international eSports.
International E-Sports? What has KESPA done for international E-sport: release some vods in Korean for 1,000 obsessed Starcraft fans to watch every week.
What Blizzard has done for international E-sport: created a tournament series watched by 100,000 people around the world.
Interesting way the you worded that to get around the fact that the GSL is solely in korea, koreans can watch it completely for free and you have to basically live there to even compete in it. Is that international eSports? I never claimed KeSPA has done much internationally, just that Blizzard has no real intentions to either unless it is actually profitable to them, hence why they are focusing completely on taking over the Korean market.
On October 18 2010 15:13 aimaimaim wrote: If Gretech wins this, after a year or so, Blizzard can now leave gretech and get money straight from kespa and they can charge more and more until there isn't going to be PL. Think about it, If the rights are "recognized" then any game developer that has its product being used in Televised E-sports can charge big money for it. Making it very hard to organize leagues. Even if the leagues will continue, there will be cost cutting from the organizers until its dead. Both in Korea and in Abroad, because Blizzard is an american company.
So they will charge more and more because they are so greedy until PL shuts down? That doesn't make any sense.
Especially when they could, ya know, charge a fair price, keep PL running, and keep getting money.
That's like Blizzard saying "we have 8 million WoW subscribers now, think how much we could make if we charged $100 a month!". No, that's not how it works, they charge the same $15 a month that every other shitty/failed mmo charges because it's a fair price and the fair price makes them bookoos of money.
Except, to keep PL running, it actually probably needs more money invested and not less. As soon as they realise this, they'll be going with a train of thought that SC2 fans bombard the BW forums every day: "What if all of these pros switched to SC2? Wouldn't that be AWESOME?" They have not shown any sign of long term commitment, only short term gain orientation and hopes someone else will do the dirty work for them.
Blizzard has shown long term commitment with every game they have developed, and they are investing quite a bit into GSL. What are you wanting them to do? Come out and say "we promise to do this for a really long time"? It's easy to talk shit about Blizzard but you might want to take into consideration that there isn't a single other game developer out there that makes a good competitive, esports quality RTS. Not even close.
Listen to what you are saying, you are talking about an entirely different thing. Making and balancing a game (which I'd actually argue they've become progressively worse at) is entirely different from establishing and financing a stable proscene. I have no idea how much is being invested into the GSL, but I severely doubt we're going to be seeing an official "Blizzard Frosties" SC1 team ever. Money demands and control demands from a scene that is already in financial trouble is also not of much assistance to the actual players who are currently afraid for their jobs.
As for SC2, Blizzard has shown that control is it's priority at the moment, not a stable proscene. The GSL system is one of bountyhunting, and funding an actual teamleague needs better efforts than shooing 11 potential huge sponsors away from it. What are the signs of long term commitment you've seen? Do you really think the situation that we're currently moving towards is beneficial for both SC1 and SC2? And do you have any other reasoning behind your arguments other than being a fanboy?
Running a 12 million player MMO is also entirely different from developing RTS games yet they stepped up to that plate exceptionally well, better than anyone who came before them. Do you have any idea about the amount of extremely efficient infrastructure that requires? My point is that Blizzard as shown time and time again that they offer nothing but high quality products and they also support those products in the long run unlike almost any other game developer so in that regard it doesn't make sense to think of them as "just a game developer". There is no other game developer like them in terms of quality, and there is no other game developer like then in terms of what they are able to invest at the front end, save *maybe* Valve.
No I don't think it's good for SC1, but I think it's great for SC2, I don't really think there will be room for both in the long run.
What signs of long term commitment have a I seen? Everything they have worked on and released publicly has shown long term commitment unmatched by their competitors. Everything. Does this apply directly to the pro scene? No, but I am not expecting this to be the exception to the way Blizzard has consistently handled it's business, there is no reason to.
You think their interest in control is separated from their interest in a pro scene? Without control they have zero incentive to make SC2 esports friendly, and zero reason to support a pro scene. Without control anyone else a can take their work and not pay them a dime for it. Which is what happened in SC1. Why would they want to do that again? Why would they even bother to put effort into making SC2 esports quality (when every other RTS isn't, when SC2 is chastised for being too "classic" because of it) when without control there would be no way for them to be sure they are making money of it? Everything about SC2 shows that they want it to be an esport game, and Blizzard always has supported their products for the long run. Put two and two together.
You can say that Blizzard is making a current financial situation even worse and that players are afraid of losing their jobs and that Blizzard is making it worse for them, but the fact is Blizzard is tempting SC1 players to move to SC2 and more and more are doing it. As long is this continues to happen, you're just wrong. The most important things for a pro scene are a quality game, pro players, and fans. They are doing a great job of getting all three of these this early in SC2's lifetime.
On October 22 2010 22:16 Meriones wrote: Ooh and people like Baldey and Treemonkeys are purely anti-esports. Blizzard has done shit for SC BW esports. They only did negative things. They also basically ruined SC2's potential as an esports because of money reasons, like maybenexttime mentioned.
....
When Blizzard is dead the competitive RTS genre will open to all other dev studios that right now don't dare to compete with Blizzard. S2 for example could make a better competitive RTS than Blizzard. They don't need to cater to casual players. They know how no maphack and low latency matters.
We all thought SC2 would be unplayable with lan latency. But there is so little micro in SC2 it really doesn't really matter. That's sick. Especially after they killed of macro. You people don't know how mechanically tense SC BW was. SC2 is nothing like that at all..
Yeah I've been watching GSL non stop and getting new people interested in it, I'm not anti-esports at all.
The genre will open up to other dev studios? Are you for real? How long has it been since they released The Frozen Throne?? (7 years) No one has stepped up to the plate because no one has had the interest to.
Yeah I do know how mechanically tense BW was, that doesn't automatically make it better.
Then you say they've ruined SC2 esports potential as we are in the middle of it's second season and more SC1 pros have moved over since the first season, that is just delusional.
Are there latency problems in the GSL games? Nope. Is there amazing micro in the GSL games? Yep, just watch boxer's games.
On October 18 2010 15:13 aimaimaim wrote: If Gretech wins this, after a year or so, Blizzard can now leave gretech and get money straight from kespa and they can charge more and more until there isn't going to be PL. Think about it, If the rights are "recognized" then any game developer that has its product being used in Televised E-sports can charge big money for it. Making it very hard to organize leagues. Even if the leagues will continue, there will be cost cutting from the organizers until its dead. Both in Korea and in Abroad, because Blizzard is an american company.
So they will charge more and more because they are so greedy until PL shuts down? That doesn't make any sense.
Especially when they could, ya know, charge a fair price, keep PL running, and keep getting money.
That's like Blizzard saying "we have 8 million WoW subscribers now, think how much we could make if we charged $100 a month!". No, that's not how it works, they charge the same $15 a month that every other shitty/failed mmo charges because it's a fair price and the fair price makes them bookoos of money.
Except, to keep PL running, it actually probably needs more money invested and not less. As soon as they realise this, they'll be going with a train of thought that SC2 fans bombard the BW forums every day: "What if all of these pros switched to SC2? Wouldn't that be AWESOME?" They have not shown any sign of long term commitment, only short term gain orientation and hopes someone else will do the dirty work for them.
Blizzard has shown long term commitment with every game they have developed, and they are investing quite a bit into GSL. What are you wanting them to do? Come out and say "we promise to do this for a really long time"? It's easy to talk shit about Blizzard but you might want to take into consideration that there isn't a single other game developer out there that makes a good competitive, esports quality RTS. Not even close.
Listen to what you are saying, you are talking about an entirely different thing. Making and balancing a game (which I'd actually argue they've become progressively worse at) is entirely different from establishing and financing a stable proscene. I have no idea how much is being invested into the GSL, but I severely doubt we're going to be seeing an official "Blizzard Frosties" SC1 team ever. Money demands and control demands from a scene that is already in financial trouble is also not of much assistance to the actual players who are currently afraid for their jobs.
As for SC2, Blizzard has shown that control is it's priority at the moment, not a stable proscene. The GSL system is one of bountyhunting, and funding an actual teamleague needs better efforts than shooing 11 potential huge sponsors away from it. What are the signs of long term commitment you've seen? Do you really think the situation that we're currently moving towards is beneficial for both SC1 and SC2? And do you have any other reasoning behind your arguments other than being a fanboy?
Running a 12 million player MMO is also entirely different from developing RTS games yet they stepped up to that plate exceptionally well, better than anyone who came before them. Do you have any idea about the amount of extremely efficient infrastructure that requires? My point is that Blizzard as shown time and time again that they offer nothing but high quality products and they also support those products in the long run unlike almost any other game developer so in that regard it doesn't make sense to think of them as "just a game developer". There is no other game developer like them in terms of quality, and there is no other game developer like then in terms of what they are able to invest at the front end, save *maybe* Valve.
No I don't think it's good for SC1, but I think it's great for SC2, I don't really think there will be room for both in the long run.
What signs of long term commitment have a I seen? Everything they have worked on and released publicly has shown long term commitment unmatched by their competitors. Everything. Does this apply directly to the pro scene? No, but I am not expecting this to be the exception to the way Blizzard has consistently handled it's business, there is no reason to.
You think their interest in control is separated from their interest in a pro scene? Without control they have zero incentive to make SC2 esports friendly, and zero reason to support a pro scene. Without control anyone else a can take their work and not pay them a dime for it. Which is what happened in SC1. Why would they want to do that again? Why would they even bother to put effort into making SC2 esports quality (when every other RTS isn't, when SC2 is chastised for being too "classic" because of it) when without control there would be no way for them to be sure they are making money of it? Everything about SC2 shows that they want it to be an esport game, and Blizzard always has supported their products for the long run. Put two and two together.
You can say that Blizzard is making a current financial situation even worse and that players are afraid of losing their jobs and that Blizzard is making it worse for them, but the fact is Blizzard is tempting SC1 players to move to SC2 and more and more are doing it. As long is this continues to happen, you're just wrong. The most important things for a pro scene are a quality game, pro players, and fans. They are doing a great job of getting all three of these this early in SC2's lifetime.
Good lord, you are dense. Say I make a good game. A really good one. Everyone I know wants to play it. Does it automatically mean I can organize a worldwide proscene around it? No. I need a lot more than that. Even a reputation as the best game developer ever won't be enough. Most likely I need a long partnership with several organizations that have money to do it. THESE ARE ENTIRELY DIFFERENT SKILLSETS. The BW proscene did not develop due to Blizzard. Also, repeating an argument that is not relevant does not make your position understandable.
Secondly, ProLeague is a specific event. At first you argued that Blizzard wouldn't just milk Proleague dry. I argued that Blizzard have no interest in keeping Proleague alive and milking an event that does not earn any direct profit will lead to the events death. Thus, giving Blizzard control over the Proleague would be a mistake from the viewpoint that wants it alive. You answered with gibberish which didn't really have much to do with what I said. You maintained that Blizzard is a good game developer and that Blizzard REALLY wants to make E-sport happen, on that much we can agree. Unfortunately, this offers no indication of good will towards proleague, especially since you yourself don't see any future for it whatsoever. After that, you argue thus : What Blizzard does is good for SC2, which makes it justified. As if SC2 didn't have enough players already. This has nothing to do with the original argument, but you forgot the sponsors part in E-sports. Guess what SC2 has as much as WC3 did previously? Sponsors. There are more similarities than you'd like to admit, and WC3 was dwarfed by BW in the long run. While SC2 might destroy BW, does not mean it will ever achieve it's highpoints. Not the way Blizzard is making it happen now. As for control, let me ask you that. What incentive did they have to make SC2 an E-sport in the first place? Regardless of what you may think, there wasn't ever too much money in the E-sports scene. There probably will never be. While a lot was invested, not a lot came back out. The companies sponsor it for free advertising, the exact same thing that Blizzard got for it. If not for the advertising, they'd have LOST money. That's why Blizzard sold the licenses to GOM so cheap. That's why their insane demands for control were coupled with a very small amount of money at first. They want to control it so it doesn't interfere with whatever game of the month they try to introduce, making it an unstable environment for long term investments.
You are not arguing what's best for Proleague, you want it dead. I see no point of you posting in this thread other than to incite hatred.
On October 24 2010 04:40 Cloak wrote: Google was just a search engine before they started to own everything.
Are you actually saying there is a pattern?
Just saying that corporations can go from one area to another rather successfully, especially if they become the juggernauts of their market. Sony and Valve are probably more apt comparisons.
On October 18 2010 15:13 aimaimaim wrote: If Gretech wins this, after a year or so, Blizzard can now leave gretech and get money straight from kespa and they can charge more and more until there isn't going to be PL. Think about it, If the rights are "recognized" then any game developer that has its product being used in Televised E-sports can charge big money for it. Making it very hard to organize leagues. Even if the leagues will continue, there will be cost cutting from the organizers until its dead. Both in Korea and in Abroad, because Blizzard is an american company.
So they will charge more and more because they are so greedy until PL shuts down? That doesn't make any sense.
Especially when they could, ya know, charge a fair price, keep PL running, and keep getting money.
That's like Blizzard saying "we have 8 million WoW subscribers now, think how much we could make if we charged $100 a month!". No, that's not how it works, they charge the same $15 a month that every other shitty/failed mmo charges because it's a fair price and the fair price makes them bookoos of money.
Except, to keep PL running, it actually probably needs more money invested and not less. As soon as they realise this, they'll be going with a train of thought that SC2 fans bombard the BW forums every day: "What if all of these pros switched to SC2? Wouldn't that be AWESOME?" They have not shown any sign of long term commitment, only short term gain orientation and hopes someone else will do the dirty work for them.
Blizzard has shown long term commitment with every game they have developed, and they are investing quite a bit into GSL. What are you wanting them to do? Come out and say "we promise to do this for a really long time"? It's easy to talk shit about Blizzard but you might want to take into consideration that there isn't a single other game developer out there that makes a good competitive, esports quality RTS. Not even close.
Listen to what you are saying, you are talking about an entirely different thing. Making and balancing a game (which I'd actually argue they've become progressively worse at) is entirely different from establishing and financing a stable proscene. I have no idea how much is being invested into the GSL, but I severely doubt we're going to be seeing an official "Blizzard Frosties" SC1 team ever. Money demands and control demands from a scene that is already in financial trouble is also not of much assistance to the actual players who are currently afraid for their jobs.
As for SC2, Blizzard has shown that control is it's priority at the moment, not a stable proscene. The GSL system is one of bountyhunting, and funding an actual teamleague needs better efforts than shooing 11 potential huge sponsors away from it. What are the signs of long term commitment you've seen? Do you really think the situation that we're currently moving towards is beneficial for both SC1 and SC2? And do you have any other reasoning behind your arguments other than being a fanboy?
Running a 12 million player MMO is also entirely different from developing RTS games yet they stepped up to that plate exceptionally well, better than anyone who came before them. Do you have any idea about the amount of extremely efficient infrastructure that requires? My point is that Blizzard as shown time and time again that they offer nothing but high quality products and they also support those products in the long run unlike almost any other game developer so in that regard it doesn't make sense to think of them as "just a game developer". There is no other game developer like them in terms of quality, and there is no other game developer like then in terms of what they are able to invest at the front end, save *maybe* Valve.
No I don't think it's good for SC1, but I think it's great for SC2, I don't really think there will be room for both in the long run.
What signs of long term commitment have a I seen? Everything they have worked on and released publicly has shown long term commitment unmatched by their competitors. Everything. Does this apply directly to the pro scene? No, but I am not expecting this to be the exception to the way Blizzard has consistently handled it's business, there is no reason to.
You think their interest in control is separated from their interest in a pro scene? Without control they have zero incentive to make SC2 esports friendly, and zero reason to support a pro scene. Without control anyone else a can take their work and not pay them a dime for it. Which is what happened in SC1. Why would they want to do that again? Why would they even bother to put effort into making SC2 esports quality (when every other RTS isn't, when SC2 is chastised for being too "classic" because of it) when without control there would be no way for them to be sure they are making money of it? Everything about SC2 shows that they want it to be an esport game, and Blizzard always has supported their products for the long run. Put two and two together.
You can say that Blizzard is making a current financial situation even worse and that players are afraid of losing their jobs and that Blizzard is making it worse for them, but the fact is Blizzard is tempting SC1 players to move to SC2 and more and more are doing it. As long is this continues to happen, you're just wrong. The most important things for a pro scene are a quality game, pro players, and fans. They are doing a great job of getting all three of these this early in SC2's lifetime.
Good lord, you are dense. Say I make a good game. A really good one. Everyone I know wants to play it. Does it automatically mean I can organize a worldwide proscene around it? No. I need a lot more than that. Even a reputation as the best game developer ever won't be enough. Most likely I need a long partnership with several organizations that have money to do it. THESE ARE ENTIRELY DIFFERENT SKILLSETS. The BW proscene did not develop due to Blizzard. Also, repeating an argument that is not relevant does not make your position understandable.
Secondly, ProLeague is a specific event. At first you argued that Blizzard wouldn't just milk Proleague dry. I argued that Blizzard have no interest in keeping Proleague alive and milking an event that does not earn any direct profit will lead to the events death. Thus, giving Blizzard control over the Proleague would be a mistake from the viewpoint that wants it alive. You answered with gibberish which didn't really have much to do with what I said. You maintained that Blizzard is a good game developer and that Blizzard REALLY wants to make E-sport happen, on that much we can agree. Unfortunately, this offers no indication of good will towards proleague, especially since you yourself don't see any future for it whatsoever. After that, you argue thus : What Blizzard does is good for SC2, which makes it justified. As if SC2 didn't have enough players already. This has nothing to do with the original argument, but you forgot the sponsors part in E-sports. Guess what SC2 has as much as WC3 did previously? Sponsors. There are more similarities than you'd like to admit, and WC3 was dwarfed by BW in the long run. While SC2 might destroy BW, does not mean it will ever achieve it's highpoints. Not the way Blizzard is making it happen now. As for control, let me ask you that. What incentive did they have to make SC2 an E-sport in the first place? Regardless of what you may think, there wasn't ever too much money in the E-sports scene. There probably will never be. While a lot was invested, not a lot came back out. The companies sponsor it for free advertising, the exact same thing that Blizzard got for it. If not for the advertising, they'd have LOST money. That's why Blizzard sold the licenses to GOM so cheap. That's why their insane demands for control were coupled with a very small amount of money at first. They want to control it so it doesn't interfere with whatever game of the month they try to introduce, making it an unstable environment for long term investments.
You are not arguing what's best for Proleague, you want it dead. I see no point of you posting in this thread other than to incite hatred.
Yes you need more than a good game, if you are pulling in millions a month that goes quite a long way to get those things.
Different skillsets = different employees, problem solved. They have the money to get the best.
Then you talk about it interfering with whatever game of the month when Blizzard doesn't release a new title for 5+ years, and you assume this is the reason they want control...based on what? Without control anyone can run a tournament and not pay them a dime. I don't see how you think it being similar to WC3 is relevant, because the actual game is not similar to WC3 at all, it is similar to BW.
Absolutely nothing you said shows how they are making it an unstable environment in the long term, that is a complete assumption on your part.
It is also an assumption on my part that it will be stable, but that is based on Blizzard's track record of creating a stable environment for every product they have released.
The esports scene may not make much money in your eyes but it sure as hell is making more than it was 15 years ago, and it is continuing to grow. Blizzard wouldn't be investing in it if they didn't want it to grow.
Saying it would lose money without advertisers is like saying the superbowl would lose money without advertisers, unless there is a genuine fear of losing them, it's complete non-sense.
I do not want proleague dead, I want it to evolve into SC2, if that is hateful to you then you have a silly problem with getting riled up by other people's opinions and desires.
On October 24 2010 04:40 Cloak wrote: Google was just a search engine before they started to own everything.
Are you actually saying there is a pattern?
Just saying that corporations can go from one area to another rather successfully, especially if they become the juggernauts of their market. Sony and Valve are probably more apt comparisons.
That's what happens when you have enough money to invest heavily on the front end.
Valve is a great example, they used to be just a game developer, a small one in fact. Now they have the biggest and most profitable DD service for PC games.
On October 18 2010 15:13 aimaimaim wrote: If Gretech wins this, after a year or so, Blizzard can now leave gretech and get money straight from kespa and they can charge more and more until there isn't going to be PL. Think about it, If the rights are "recognized" then any game developer that has its product being used in Televised E-sports can charge big money for it. Making it very hard to organize leagues. Even if the leagues will continue, there will be cost cutting from the organizers until its dead. Both in Korea and in Abroad, because Blizzard is an american company.
So they will charge more and more because they are so greedy until PL shuts down? That doesn't make any sense.
Especially when they could, ya know, charge a fair price, keep PL running, and keep getting money.
That's like Blizzard saying "we have 8 million WoW subscribers now, think how much we could make if we charged $100 a month!". No, that's not how it works, they charge the same $15 a month that every other shitty/failed mmo charges because it's a fair price and the fair price makes them bookoos of money.
Except, to keep PL running, it actually probably needs more money invested and not less. As soon as they realise this, they'll be going with a train of thought that SC2 fans bombard the BW forums every day: "What if all of these pros switched to SC2? Wouldn't that be AWESOME?" They have not shown any sign of long term commitment, only short term gain orientation and hopes someone else will do the dirty work for them.
Blizzard has shown long term commitment with every game they have developed, and they are investing quite a bit into GSL. What are you wanting them to do? Come out and say "we promise to do this for a really long time"? It's easy to talk shit about Blizzard but you might want to take into consideration that there isn't a single other game developer out there that makes a good competitive, esports quality RTS. Not even close.
Listen to what you are saying, you are talking about an entirely different thing. Making and balancing a game (which I'd actually argue they've become progressively worse at) is entirely different from establishing and financing a stable proscene. I have no idea how much is being invested into the GSL, but I severely doubt we're going to be seeing an official "Blizzard Frosties" SC1 team ever. Money demands and control demands from a scene that is already in financial trouble is also not of much assistance to the actual players who are currently afraid for their jobs.
As for SC2, Blizzard has shown that control is it's priority at the moment, not a stable proscene. The GSL system is one of bountyhunting, and funding an actual teamleague needs better efforts than shooing 11 potential huge sponsors away from it. What are the signs of long term commitment you've seen? Do you really think the situation that we're currently moving towards is beneficial for both SC1 and SC2? And do you have any other reasoning behind your arguments other than being a fanboy?
Running a 12 million player MMO is also entirely different from developing RTS games yet they stepped up to that plate exceptionally well, better than anyone who came before them. Do you have any idea about the amount of extremely efficient infrastructure that requires? My point is that Blizzard as shown time and time again that they offer nothing but high quality products and they also support those products in the long run unlike almost any other game developer so in that regard it doesn't make sense to think of them as "just a game developer". There is no other game developer like them in terms of quality, and there is no other game developer like then in terms of what they are able to invest at the front end, save *maybe* Valve.
No I don't think it's good for SC1, but I think it's great for SC2, I don't really think there will be room for both in the long run.
What signs of long term commitment have a I seen? Everything they have worked on and released publicly has shown long term commitment unmatched by their competitors. Everything. Does this apply directly to the pro scene? No, but I am not expecting this to be the exception to the way Blizzard has consistently handled it's business, there is no reason to.
You think their interest in control is separated from their interest in a pro scene? Without control they have zero incentive to make SC2 esports friendly, and zero reason to support a pro scene. Without control anyone else a can take their work and not pay them a dime for it. Which is what happened in SC1. Why would they want to do that again? Why would they even bother to put effort into making SC2 esports quality (when every other RTS isn't, when SC2 is chastised for being too "classic" because of it) when without control there would be no way for them to be sure they are making money of it? Everything about SC2 shows that they want it to be an esport game, and Blizzard always has supported their products for the long run. Put two and two together.
You can say that Blizzard is making a current financial situation even worse and that players are afraid of losing their jobs and that Blizzard is making it worse for them, but the fact is Blizzard is tempting SC1 players to move to SC2 and more and more are doing it. As long is this continues to happen, you're just wrong. The most important things for a pro scene are a quality game, pro players, and fans. They are doing a great job of getting all three of these this early in SC2's lifetime.
Good lord, you are dense. Say I make a good game. A really good one. Everyone I know wants to play it. Does it automatically mean I can organize a worldwide proscene around it? No. I need a lot more than that. Even a reputation as the best game developer ever won't be enough. Most likely I need a long partnership with several organizations that have money to do it. THESE ARE ENTIRELY DIFFERENT SKILLSETS. The BW proscene did not develop due to Blizzard. Also, repeating an argument that is not relevant does not make your position understandable.
Secondly, ProLeague is a specific event. At first you argued that Blizzard wouldn't just milk Proleague dry. I argued that Blizzard have no interest in keeping Proleague alive and milking an event that does not earn any direct profit will lead to the events death. Thus, giving Blizzard control over the Proleague would be a mistake from the viewpoint that wants it alive. You answered with gibberish which didn't really have much to do with what I said. You maintained that Blizzard is a good game developer and that Blizzard REALLY wants to make E-sport happen, on that much we can agree. Unfortunately, this offers no indication of good will towards proleague, especially since you yourself don't see any future for it whatsoever. After that, you argue thus : What Blizzard does is good for SC2, which makes it justified. As if SC2 didn't have enough players already. This has nothing to do with the original argument, but you forgot the sponsors part in E-sports. Guess what SC2 has as much as WC3 did previously? Sponsors. There are more similarities than you'd like to admit, and WC3 was dwarfed by BW in the long run. While SC2 might destroy BW, does not mean it will ever achieve it's highpoints. Not the way Blizzard is making it happen now. As for control, let me ask you that. What incentive did they have to make SC2 an E-sport in the first place? Regardless of what you may think, there wasn't ever too much money in the E-sports scene. There probably will never be. While a lot was invested, not a lot came back out. The companies sponsor it for free advertising, the exact same thing that Blizzard got for it. If not for the advertising, they'd have LOST money. That's why Blizzard sold the licenses to GOM so cheap. That's why their insane demands for control were coupled with a very small amount of money at first. They want to control it so it doesn't interfere with whatever game of the month they try to introduce, making it an unstable environment for long term investments.
You are not arguing what's best for Proleague, you want it dead. I see no point of you posting in this thread other than to incite hatred.
Yes you need more than a good game, if you are pulling in millions a month that goes quite a long way to get those things.
Different skillsets = different employees, problem solved. They have the money to get the best.
Then you talk about it interfering with whatever game of the month when Blizzard doesn't release a new title for 5+ years, and you assume this is the reason they want control...based on what? Without control anyone can run a tournament and not pay them a dime. I don't see how you think it being similar to WC3 is relevant, because the actual game is not similar to WC3 at all, it is similar to BW.
Absolutely nothing you said shows how they are making it an unstable environment in the long term, that is a complete assumption on your part.
It is also an assumption on my part that it will be stable, but that is based on Blizzard's track record of creating a stable environment for every product they have released.
The esports scene may not make much money in your eyes but it sure as hell is making more than it was 15 years ago, and it is continuing to grow. Blizzard wouldn't be investing in it if they didn't want it to grow.
Saying it would lose money without advertisers is like saying the superbowl would lose money without advertisers, unless there is a genuine fear of losing them, it's complete non-sense.
I do not want proleague dead, I want it to evolve into SC2, if that is hateful to you then you have a silly problem with getting riled up by other people's opinions and desires.
Dear treemonkeys, millions a month isn't enough to support such a thing like Proleague. They don't have the money to hire enough people to run Proleague on their own. You are assuming a lot without any real numerical backup. If you've read any of this thread, you'd see estimates of how much it costs to keep a proteam like CJ running in a niche environment such as BW is now in Korea. The cost was 20mil $. Blizzard has invested nothing near that amount in any game yet, let alone that amount times 12 (the number of teams playing in Proleague last year).
Game of the month was exaggerated, I'll admit, but in long term, it will probably be similar evolutions: SC2 into WC4 or possibly even Diablo 3. This is not stable, as having to switch your game every 5+ years is not a stable environment for investments. I used WC3 as an example not because the games are any similar, but because the games professional evolution was similarly overseen by Blizzard and because it failed to become nearly as big, even though the sponsors of BW weren't opposed to that game. WeMade even had a team. WoW arena has become strongly unbalanced since 2009, I've been told, and there is no telling how long Blizzard is willing to invest significant amounts of money into SC2. This isn't cheap - it's anything other than that, and there are no big profits in sight.
Now that we have clarified that, please tell me how much direct profit these firms get in your opinion and what sources they get it from. I'll help - there are no entrance fees to matches and the costs they demand from the broadcasting channels - MBC and OGN are reinvested into BW. The money that GOM would get from the Proleague organizers isn't even going to be invested into BW, it goes to charity, which I doubt will be SC related either. This has nothing to do with my opinion or my eyes, it is a fact that they do not break even - the only source of income I'm aware of is the unknowable amount of PR they get for sponsoring the teams. It would be more relevant to compare the situation in E-sports to a superbowl that was stripped of all of its teamsponsors and a huge first prize, say a billion dollars for grabs, but no salaries. We'll just make them transition to speed-weightlifting, there is lots of potential in that field. But surely after such an incident it could survive on it's own, right? No? I thought so.
The argument for IP control also leaves me baffled. I might be overly pessimistic, but I don't ever see SC2 reaching a state where keeping it an e-sport would ever create any significant profit other than the profits from selling more games due to more exposure. Did you see the fit that was thrown when they wanted to ask 20$ for a previously free stream?
The way the SC2 scene is now it might become a stable scene compared to Blizzard standards of WOW and WC3, but not compared to SC:BW.
And a transition of Proleague into SC2 by suing the sponsors/teams is equal to killing it, then putting a SC2 stamp on it. It'll be an empty shell.
$20 million really isn't a whole lot for Activision/Blizzard, and they will not be doing it alone. They spent $100 million developing Starcraft 2. So what do you mean by saying they haven't invested anything near $20 million into a game? This is money they spent before selling a single copy, a huge investment, 5 times what you say they have never done. Sounds like you are the one assuming.
You seem to also be discounting advertisement as a valid form of income, but it is everything for sports, esports will have to be no different. What return of investment does a company get for spending millions on a 30 second Superbowl commercial? Nothing at all tangible, it's about creating an image. The more fans you have watching, the more gaming/technology companies will want to be involved to be part of that image, the more advertisers and therefore income they will get.
It's also funny that you keep pointing out that they don't break even, and yet you want to preserve things the way they have been. God forbid Blizzard comes along, maintains control of SC2, and uses it to actually make esports more profitable for everyone involved. So you know, you can actually have professionals getting paid to play instead of competing for prize money.
Did you see all the huge fits about the plethora of changes with SC2 and the new battle.net? Did you see how many copies it sold regardless of this? Internet fits are more often than not meaningless. Yet at the same time Blizzard as been good at bending to the masses when it matters.
Basically because of the massive amount of money and steady income Activision/Blizzard has, they are in a better position that anyone to turn the SC2 pro scene into something much bigger than BW ever was. Because their track record I think they have a strong chance of pulling this off. Based on what you've said I don't think you have any idea how much they are able to invest in this.
Yeah you are being overly pessimistic about IP control and everything else IMO, you don't think it can ever get bigger than BW, you don't think it can become more profitable, you just want things to stay the same and not change, and maybe you just don't like SC2?
On October 27 2010 00:54 Treemonkeys wrote: $20 million really isn't a whole lot for Activision/Blizzard, and they will not be doing it alone. They spent $100 million developing Starcraft 2. So what do you mean by saying they haven't invested anything near $20 million into a game? This is money they spent before selling a single copy, a huge investment, 5 times what you say they have never done. Sounds like you are the one assuming.
You seem to also be discounting advertisement as a valid form of income, but it is everything for sports, esports will have to be no different. What return of investment does a company get for spending millions on a 30 second Superbowl commercial? Nothing at all tangible, it's about creating an image. The more fans you have watching, the more gaming/technology companies will want to be involved to be part of that image, the more advertisers and therefore income they will get.
It's also funny that you keep pointing out that they don't break even, and yet you want to preserve things the way they have been. God forbid Blizzard comes along, maintains control of SC2, and uses it to actually make esports more profitable for everyone involved. So you know, you can actually have professionals getting paid to play instead of competing for prize money.
Did you see all the huge fits about the plethora of changes with SC2 and the new battle.net? Did you see how many copies it sold regardless of this? Internet fits are more often than not meaningless. Yet at the same time Blizzard as been good at bending to the masses when it matters.
Basically because of the massive amount of money and steady income Activision/Blizzard has, they are in a better position that anyone to turn the SC2 pro scene into something much bigger than BW ever was. Because their track record I think they have a strong chance of pulling this off. Based on what you've said I don't think you have any idea how much they are able to invest in this.
Yeah you are being overly pessimistic about IP control and everything else IMO, you don't think it can ever get bigger than BW, you don't think it can become more profitable, you just want things to stay the same and not change, and maybe you just don't like SC2?
Who are they going to do it with? I'm glad you brought up the 100 million estimate, so I can post this: http://www.gamespot.com/news/6269369.html Development costs aren't exactly the same as investments, but I digress, WOW has received that amount of money.
I don't discount advertisements as a source of money, I count them as the ONLY source of money for the sponsors. I don't see how Blizzard gets more money by suing the former sponsors who invested heavily into their previous game and usurping a large part of what they built up while Blizzard did little to nothing after releasing the last balance patch. This does NOT help get sponsors, especially in the long term. Do you see a GOM TV sponsored team? Or an Intel sponsored team? Or an Ericsson sponsored team? No? Because no huge investments have yet been made. I don't know why this might be, so let me venture a guess. The fact that Blizzard is suing the previous sponsors could be one of them. The other reasoning is the scene is not yet ready, because it is unstable as hell. The league sponsors change wildly, and the way things are going now, Blizzard will own their entire decisionmaking process with the money invested. Players, teams, everything. All written in the demands to KeSPA. In the long term, who knows? But this is not a good way to do it, and raises a lot of doubts regarding the scenes overall profitability. WC3 never got properly balanced, for example, BW happens to be only one balanced up to date and this is mostly due to map makers. It sure doesn't help they are constantly patching and that they are going to add new units either. I see no track record to speak of, and no other game except for BW that has become an e-sport, and that was not their doing. Sure, they can invest millions! For what? Selling more copies of SC2? They'll achieve that through the GSL, no need to invest pointless amounts of money. Advertising? I have no idea why you need more advertising when your game is being played in every major tournament already. Blizzard has no need to sponsor teams or to give them salaries. It isn't very profitable - How many copies of SC2 should be sold during say 5 years (lets count the expansions in) with a development cost of 100 million dollars (unknown number, probably a lot smaller, but it's your line of thought I'm trying to disprove anyway, let's say the expansions are also made for that development cost to be generous.),20*12=240 million dollars a year for team upkeep and direct advertising already costing 30 million? In total, this would cost 240*5+100 million dollars= 1.3 billion dollars. Lets say the cost of all 3 SC2 games combined is 180$(if the costs are adjusted to being expansion packs, it will be less). This would require 7,38 million games of each of the 3 sold. Currently, the number sold is 3 million of 1/3-d of the product (source: wikipedia). As a comparison, the equivalent number of SC+BW is 4,5 million. This would be required just to break even. It'll probably sell worse if the BW scene is being destroyed by a paper that has the word "Blizzard Entertainment" written on it. Korea still loves BW and it hasn't grown too attached to SC2 just yet. This isn't helping matters.
I also don't understand how my liking or disliking of SC2 matters. Do I like SC2 enough to let it kill off BW before the scene dies a natural death? No. If Blizzard wouldn't meddle, both games would probably do a lot better.
Also, if Blizzard has so much money to throw at the problem, it would probably be wiser to set up a new proleague of their own design anyway, instead of killing off the old one. Make a TV-channel while they are at it - they are a successful game company, so they should clearly be able to make TV-shows not behind the quality of MBC or OGN. Only international this time. GOM TV does not count, it is internet based, instead of transmitting into the telly, it streams and has a pathetic budget.
Why the need to convert Proleague into SC2, I ask again? SC2 proleague by your account has money, players, and an audience. Blizzard doesn't need control over BW, and if you want both scenes to survive, you'll root for KeSPA in this conflict, as Blizzard can't invest everywhere. I'll stop posting in this thread, PM me if you want to answer to me personally or post into one of the more active threads to argue your points. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163043 This one should fit the bill.
EPT
