EPTEdit: Also lets not even start on BNet 2.0 if you seriously think blizzard in anyway cares about international eSports.
KeSPA and Gretech re-attempt negotiation - Page 9
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
Edit: Also lets not even start on BNet 2.0 if you seriously think blizzard in anyway cares about international eSports. | ||
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Baldey
United States28 Posts
kespa wouldn't kill esports either, im nto syaing they will. im sure if kespa survives, esports will be just as big if not bigger then they have been. the question isnt wether esports will survive... the question is wether kespa should survive. | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
On October 18 2010 15:13 aimaimaim wrote: If Gretech wins this, after a year or so, Blizzard can now leave gretech and get money straight from kespa and they can charge more and more until there isn't going to be PL. Think about it, If the rights are "recognized" then any game developer that has its product being used in Televised E-sports can charge big money for it. Making it very hard to organize leagues. Even if the leagues will continue, there will be cost cutting from the organizers until its dead. Both in Korea and in Abroad, because Blizzard is an american company. So they will charge more and more because they are so greedy until PL shuts down? That doesn't make any sense. Especially when they could, ya know, charge a fair price, keep PL running, and keep getting money. That's like Blizzard saying "we have 8 million WoW subscribers now, think how much we could make if we charged $100 a month!". No, that's not how it works, they charge the same $15 a month that every other shitty/failed mmo charges because it's a fair price and the fair price makes them bookoos of money. | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
On October 20 2010 22:02 infinity2k9 wrote: I don't think there's any point in a discussion with you as you have no idea what is going on or the actual money involved in any part of this. What KeSPA HAS done: made the most well organized, popular and self-sustainable eSports scene thats ever existed. What Blizzard HAS done: ignored it completely and laid out plans which cannot last forever and which benefit nobody except themselves and the few gamers who are top of the scene and collect the huge majority of prize money. Try and look past your blizzard = good shit and see what's actually happening here, which is Blizzard and Gretech attempting to siphon profit from a completely financially unstable market. Edit: Also lets not even start on BNet 2.0 if you seriously think blizzard in anyway cares about international eSports. You forgot the part where Blizzard made the game the KeSPA built everything on. You're acting like Blizzard is just some completely random company that had nothing to do with Starcraft and they stepped in trying to force their way. lol | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
On October 21 2010 04:57 Baldey wrote: i could study up on the money, but i dont think that matters. gom is clearly out to destroy kespa. just because they have their demands doesnt mean they will go through with them. and its not that hard to make a sustainable esports market for a company, when theres already a huge fanbase. im sure blizzard can make a very sustainable esports market from the ashes of kespa. the fans and the players arent going anywhere, only kespa and their shitty practice is. whatever blizzards demands are, when push comes to shove im sure they wount destroy themselves. they arent idiots, and its not just 1 person makin decisions here either... pritty sure they are smarter then all of us, so saying blizzard is going to kill esports is absurd. kespa wouldn't kill esports either, im nto syaing they will. im sure if kespa survives, esports will be just as big if not bigger then they have been. the question isnt wether esports will survive... the question is wether kespa should survive. Pretty much this, Blizzard, Starcraft 2, and esports in general do not need them. | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
On October 21 2010 07:07 Treemonkeys wrote: You forgot the part where Blizzard made the game the KeSPA built everything on. You're acting like Blizzard is just some completely random company that had nothing to do with Starcraft and they stepped in trying to force their way. lol Yeah Blizzard is a game developer. That's all they are and all they should be. | ||
mustaju
Estonia4504 Posts
On October 21 2010 07:05 Treemonkeys wrote: So they will charge more and more because they are so greedy until PL shuts down? That doesn't make any sense. Especially when they could, ya know, charge a fair price, keep PL running, and keep getting money. + Show Spoiler + That's like Blizzard saying "we have 8 million WoW subscribers now, think how much we could make if we charged $100 a month!". No, that's not how it works, they charge the same $15 a month that every other shitty/failed mmo charges because it's a fair price and the fair price makes them bookoos of money. Except, to keep PL running, it actually probably needs more money invested and not less. As soon as they realise this, they'll be going with a train of thought that SC2 fans bombard the BW forums every day: "What if all of these pros switched to SC2? Wouldn't that be AWESOME?" They have not shown any sign of long term commitment, only short term gain orientation and hopes someone else will do the dirty work for them. | ||
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netm
1 Post
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
On October 21 2010 08:00 infinity2k9 wrote: Yeah Blizzard is a game developer. That's all they are and all they should be. Fortunately you have no say in that, they are making far too much money to stay "just a game developer", it would be incredibly stupid for them to not expand their horizons. | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
On October 21 2010 08:26 mustaju wrote: Except, to keep PL running, it actually probably needs more money invested and not less. As soon as they realise this, they'll be going with a train of thought that SC2 fans bombard the BW forums every day: "What if all of these pros switched to SC2? Wouldn't that be AWESOME?" They have not shown any sign of long term commitment, only short term gain orientation and hopes someone else will do the dirty work for them. Blizzard has shown long term commitment with every game they have developed, and they are investing quite a bit into GSL. What are you wanting them to do? Come out and say "we promise to do this for a really long time"? It's easy to talk shit about Blizzard but you might want to take into consideration that there isn't a single other game developer out there that makes a good competitive, esports quality RTS. Not even close. | ||
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mustaju
Estonia4504 Posts
On October 22 2010 00:11 Treemonkeys wrote: Blizzard has shown long term commitment with every game they have developed, and they are investing quite a bit into GSL. What are you wanting them to do? Come out and say "we promise to do this for a really long time"? It's easy to talk shit about Blizzard but you might want to take into consideration that there isn't a single other game developer out there that makes a good competitive, esports quality RTS. Not even close. Listen to what you are saying, you are talking about an entirely different thing. Making and balancing a game (which I'd actually argue they've become progressively worse at) is entirely different from establishing and financing a stable proscene. I have no idea how much is being invested into the GSL, but I severely doubt we're going to be seeing an official "Blizzard Frosties" SC1 team ever. Money demands and control demands from a scene that is already in financial trouble is also not of much assistance to the actual players who are currently afraid for their jobs. As for SC2, Blizzard has shown that control is it's priority at the moment, not a stable proscene. The GSL system is one of bountyhunting, and funding an actual teamleague needs better efforts than shooing 11 potential huge sponsors away from it. What are the signs of long term commitment you've seen? Do you really think the situation that we're currently moving towards is beneficial for both SC1 and SC2? And do you have any other reasoning behind your arguments other than being a fanboy? | ||
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Kachna
134 Posts
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Baldey
United States28 Posts
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toadstool
Australia421 Posts
On October 20 2010 22:02 infinity2k9 wrote: I don't think there's any point in a discussion with you as you have no idea what is going on or the actual money involved in any part of this. What KeSPA HAS done: made the most well organized, popular and self-sustainable eSports scene thats ever existed. What Blizzard HAS done: ignored it completely and laid out plans which cannot last forever and which benefit nobody except themselves and the few gamers who are top of the scene and collect the huge majority of prize money. Try and look past your blizzard = good shit and see what's actually happening here, which is Blizzard and Gretech attempting to siphon profit from a completely financially unstable market. Edit: Also lets not even start on BNet 2.0 if you seriously think blizzard in anyway cares about international eSports. International E-Sports? What has KESPA done for international E-sport: release some vods in Korean for 1,000 obsessed Starcraft fans to watch every week. What Blizzard has done for international E-sport: created a tournament series watched by 100,000 people around the world. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5706 Posts
On October 22 2010 14:55 toadstool wrote: International E-Sports? What has KESPA done for international E-sport: release some vods in Korean for 1,000 obsessed Starcraft fans to watch every week. What Blizzard has done for international E-sport: created a tournament series watched by 100,000 people around the world. KeSPA has helped other countries (such as the UK or Japan) create their own progaming associations, made deals with Chinese broadcasters, sent their players to BlizzCon as well as various countries in the region to promote esports, helped organize various international events in Asia, loddbied for classifying esports as a sport discipline in various Asian countries (afaik), helped promising foreigners join the progaming teams in Korea, and probably much more I'm not aware of. Not to mention they hardly got any money out of that, while gretech/blizzard are milking their customers left and right. Blizzard also removed LAN from sc2 (it was available in earlier builds), did not implement cross-server play, which used to be a standard in their games, did not include any chatrooms, made a crappy ranking system that makes it nearly impossible to track your own progress or see who the top players are on the ladder. | ||
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Meriones
43 Posts
It is just not viable financially. Esports in Korea already can't break even. They have a few huge players with huge salaries. Why do you want them to send those players to Europe/NA where no one will come and watch? And it's not like NA/European players could put up an opposition. And if you sent Korean amateurs vs NA/European amateurs then you have better matches, but you play vs someone that.s no.500 in Korea. Blizzard/Gretech needs to charge money with SC2 in NA/Europe because it is not financially viable. But you wanted Kespa to do it for free with a 10 year old game? That's absurd. Ooh and people like Baldey and Treemonkeys are purely anti-esports. Blizzard has done shit for SC BW esports. They only did negative things. They also basically ruined SC2's potential as an esports because of money reasons, like maybenexttime mentioned. The Koreans basically invented esports. Kespa embodies their ideas about esports. "Kespa and their shitty practices"? You people keep saying Kespa does things bad but never is pointed out what is bad about them. Kespa and SC BW are the no.1 example of succesful esports. There's no other case that can compare or come even close. And you want the west and Blizzard to try it completely different? This is just blind hate for Kespa and blind hate for Blizzard and it makes me sick. I think you guys are traitors. Blizzard clearly put a knife in our backs and you guys are loving it. You weren't here when Blizzard gave us shit all the time. When they called Iccup a pirate server, when they banned people for using Low Latency, when they refused to do anything about hackers, when they patched the game up so Korea had to use an older patch, etc etc. Also, don't forget the game speed issue way way back. Blizzard forced us to play at the wrong speed, on the wrong maps with the wrong balance. Then, they left it alone and Korea did their thing. Blizzard never even acknowledged that. Blizzcon tournaments were the worst tournaments in the world. Blizzard didn't even know what observer maps are. They don't know what players are good, Korea or foreign. They have commentators sit next to the players so they can't even mention anything besides play by play, etc. And they keep trying to push that shitty WoW game down our throats. I remember back in school in the days of WC2, Diablo and SC where I championed Blizzard for all my friends. But right now I will dance on my grave when they go broke. They are already making a loss. They already took way too much money to make a technically simple game. When WoW starts dying and their new MMO can't reach 1/5th of the success of WoW they are going down. They gave the WoW money to their stockholders who will abandon them really really quickly. When Blizzard is dead the competitive RTS genre will open to all other dev studios that right now don't dare to compete with Blizzard. S2 for example could make a better competitive RTS than Blizzard. They don't need to cater to casual players. They know how no maphack and low latency matters. We all thought SC2 would be unplayable with lan latency. But there is so little micro in SC2 it really doesn't really matter. That's sick. Especially after they killed of macro. You people don't know how mechanically tense SC BW was. SC2 is nothing like that at all.. | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
On October 22 2010 14:55 toadstool wrote: International E-Sports? What has KESPA done for international E-sport: release some vods in Korean for 1,000 obsessed Starcraft fans to watch every week. What Blizzard has done for international E-sport: created a tournament series watched by 100,000 people around the world. Interesting way the you worded that to get around the fact that the GSL is solely in korea, koreans can watch it completely for free and you have to basically live there to even compete in it. Is that international eSports? I never claimed KeSPA has done much internationally, just that Blizzard has no real intentions to either unless it is actually profitable to them, hence why they are focusing completely on taking over the Korean market. | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
On October 22 2010 08:16 mustaju wrote: Listen to what you are saying, you are talking about an entirely different thing. Making and balancing a game (which I'd actually argue they've become progressively worse at) is entirely different from establishing and financing a stable proscene. I have no idea how much is being invested into the GSL, but I severely doubt we're going to be seeing an official "Blizzard Frosties" SC1 team ever. Money demands and control demands from a scene that is already in financial trouble is also not of much assistance to the actual players who are currently afraid for their jobs. As for SC2, Blizzard has shown that control is it's priority at the moment, not a stable proscene. The GSL system is one of bountyhunting, and funding an actual teamleague needs better efforts than shooing 11 potential huge sponsors away from it. What are the signs of long term commitment you've seen? Do you really think the situation that we're currently moving towards is beneficial for both SC1 and SC2? And do you have any other reasoning behind your arguments other than being a fanboy? Running a 12 million player MMO is also entirely different from developing RTS games yet they stepped up to that plate exceptionally well, better than anyone who came before them. Do you have any idea about the amount of extremely efficient infrastructure that requires? My point is that Blizzard as shown time and time again that they offer nothing but high quality products and they also support those products in the long run unlike almost any other game developer so in that regard it doesn't make sense to think of them as "just a game developer". There is no other game developer like them in terms of quality, and there is no other game developer like then in terms of what they are able to invest at the front end, save *maybe* Valve. No I don't think it's good for SC1, but I think it's great for SC2, I don't really think there will be room for both in the long run. What signs of long term commitment have a I seen? Everything they have worked on and released publicly has shown long term commitment unmatched by their competitors. Everything. Does this apply directly to the pro scene? No, but I am not expecting this to be the exception to the way Blizzard has consistently handled it's business, there is no reason to. You think their interest in control is separated from their interest in a pro scene? Without control they have zero incentive to make SC2 esports friendly, and zero reason to support a pro scene. Without control anyone else a can take their work and not pay them a dime for it. Which is what happened in SC1. Why would they want to do that again? Why would they even bother to put effort into making SC2 esports quality (when every other RTS isn't, when SC2 is chastised for being too "classic" because of it) when without control there would be no way for them to be sure they are making money of it? Everything about SC2 shows that they want it to be an esport game, and Blizzard always has supported their products for the long run. Put two and two together. You can say that Blizzard is making a current financial situation even worse and that players are afraid of losing their jobs and that Blizzard is making it worse for them, but the fact is Blizzard is tempting SC1 players to move to SC2 and more and more are doing it. As long is this continues to happen, you're just wrong. The most important things for a pro scene are a quality game, pro players, and fans. They are doing a great job of getting all three of these this early in SC2's lifetime. | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
On October 22 2010 22:16 Meriones wrote: Ooh and people like Baldey and Treemonkeys are purely anti-esports. Blizzard has done shit for SC BW esports. They only did negative things. They also basically ruined SC2's potential as an esports because of money reasons, like maybenexttime mentioned. .... When Blizzard is dead the competitive RTS genre will open to all other dev studios that right now don't dare to compete with Blizzard. S2 for example could make a better competitive RTS than Blizzard. They don't need to cater to casual players. They know how no maphack and low latency matters. We all thought SC2 would be unplayable with lan latency. But there is so little micro in SC2 it really doesn't really matter. That's sick. Especially after they killed of macro. You people don't know how mechanically tense SC BW was. SC2 is nothing like that at all.. Yeah I've been watching GSL non stop and getting new people interested in it, I'm not anti-esports at all. The genre will open up to other dev studios? Are you for real? How long has it been since they released The Frozen Throne?? (7 years) No one has stepped up to the plate because no one has had the interest to. Yeah I do know how mechanically tense BW was, that doesn't automatically make it better. Then you say they've ruined SC2 esports potential as we are in the middle of it's second season and more SC1 pros have moved over since the first season, that is just delusional. Are there latency problems in the GSL games? Nope. Is there amazing micro in the GSL games? Yep, just watch boxer's games. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5706 Posts
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