EPTif it doesnt work kespa killed bw so sc2 can be more popular without blizz being villain, if it works they get money from bw or did i miss something ?
KeSPA and Gretech re-attempt negotiation - Page 6
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noD
2230 Posts
if it doesnt work kespa killed bw so sc2 can be more popular without blizz being villain, if it works they get money from bw or did i miss something ? | ||
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battarro
United States59 Posts
I dont think Blizz should be given so much power just because they created a tool among many others that contruct E-Sport as we know it today.. It sets a real bad precedence for other people who would want to organise tournaments or promote eSport, since they barely own half of their hard work anyway, the other half belonged to some guy who already get paid, and is sitting around getting paid even more. If they are not given control and an economic benefit, then what incentive do software companies have for creating the multiplayer portion of their games? The sale of the single player mode will have to justify the investment in creating the multiplayer software, and for lots of companies it does not. A lot of great games are released without a multiplayer, because it costs money to do, companies have to take a leap of faith and invest on it. If we can not guarantee legally that they will control the product, it reduces the incentive to invest. Specially when there is the precedent of another entity coming and making money of your work without paying you nothing. | ||
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
On October 19 2010 04:52 dybydx wrote: the fee or even a royalty based on % earning could arguably be fair demands from Blizz/Gretech, but the 50% ownership of IP is unreasonable. i m sure JK Rowling doesnt own 50% IP rights to Harry Potter movies or any merchandise that came out of the series except the books themselves. Nobody can make any movies or any merchandise about Harry Potter without her permission, unless she sold the rights to some other company. | ||
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
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lololcat
United States5 Posts
It clearly tells me that they did not even pay any effort to learn about e-sports history They just want to see their 'precious proleague' and don't want to think about anything else. | ||
Falling
Canada11350 Posts
On October 19 2010 06:38 ffreakk wrote: @arbiter From what i heard, yes there is a period of validation. Also from what i ve heard, that period is extended by 20 years every 20 years, so practically, probably no. Battaro, i think there should be a distinction made between getting royalties and owning the IP right to the derivative work itself. Blizz should get its royalties, yes i think so too.. But as to the work itself (e.g Proleague games), SC:BW is merely a tool that's been purchased by the organiser in order for their competitors to showcase their skills, and from the tournament format to players to all else, none of this has anything to do with Blizzard.. So if the money paid for the game is considered not enough, then maybe they will be entitled some royalties. I dont think Blizz should be given so much power just because they created a tool among many others that contruct E-Sport as we know it today.. It sets a real bad precedence for other people who would want to organise tournaments or promote eSport, since they barely own half of their hardwork anyway, the other half belonged to some guy who already get paid, and is sitting around getting paid even more. Given your definition of a tool, would you also consider music to be a tool? Because really when music is used in dance competitions, it's simply to showcase the skill of the dancer or when it's used in a film, it's used by the director to evoke a certain emotion (music being used as a tool.) Should the artist any say in how their work is used? Because although music can be used as a tool, it is first an art. Similarly a video game is a compilation of art, if not art itself (music, graphics, gameplay.) Would you argue that there is a difference between how the music is used and how the video game is used. Or are you arguing that IP with music and books should be different than what currently is? That is, if someone wanted to sell their own fanfic, or use U2's "Where the Streets Have No Name" for whatever commercial they wanted, would you think that's legitimate? Do we ignore an artists sentiment expressed by Neil Young "Notes For You" on not selling out? Because if the artist does not have control over the IP for their own work, they can become associated with companies, politics, working conditions that the artist completely disagrees with. | ||
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aimaimaim
Philippines2167 Posts
On October 19 2010 13:12 lololcat wrote: People advocating Kespa just make me laugh. It clearly tells me that they did not even pay any effort to learn about e-sports history They just want to see their 'precious proleague' and don't want to think about anything else. troll?? what?? please kindly elaborate more! seriously.. | ||
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writer22816
United States5775 Posts
On October 19 2010 06:03 battarro wrote: Do you have any idea about Copyright and IP laws work? Of course the creator has a big saying about how is his product used in derivative works. Let me put you an example. Music and dancing. Lets suppose you have an artist who creates a song, he goes and copyrights the song. Now a TV show such as MTV creates a TV series called "Do you think you can dance" where the contestant will dance to this song on their own unique ways, and the TV judges will judge them and give them prices. Now the show becomes incredibly successful because people love seeing silly dances. The TV show owners make millions(Kespa-TV Networks), the dancers make little money ( Players) and not a single penny goes to the creator of the song other than the cost of the CD(Blizzard). Are you saying this is correct/OK? A musician/artist has no saying, input or is not economically entitled to any benefit /use of his product, other than the original price for individual/ non commercial consumption? Lets say now that you are a christian artist, and you create an awesome beat. Turnout this beat is now used in porn movies because, it actually sound great and mixes well with people screwing each other. Now it is obvious that this is negative advertisement for his fan base since christian music followers are not to thrilled about porn music. So under your scenario this guy has no recourse to stop the porn company from using his soundtrack, effectively damaging his reputation / income base. Blizzard has a lot of rights deciding on how is his products used in a commercial setting. Umm first off esports is good for SC so your ridiculous porn analogy is irrevelant. Second, I would agree that blizzard would have some IP rights to BW if Kespa just picked their game off the ground, broadcasted it, and made a big buck. However, THIS IS NOT THE CASE. Look at the blizzard maps and countless third party tools that had to be made before SC could even be played competitively. If you followed the scene and looked at what blizzard did for competitive BW (read: jack shit) then you would realize that blizzard doesnt deserve money from kespa. | ||
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lololcat
United States5 Posts
On October 19 2010 16:02 aimaimaim wrote: troll?? what?? please kindly elaborate more! seriously.. Blizzard started to interfere with Korean starcraft leagues in 2007 when KeSPA claimed the rights to proleague and forced ongamenet and mbcgame to pay them a large sum of money. (look up IEG for more information, I believe that the amount was about 1.3 million dollars total) The funny part is that Kespa refused to show proper respect and pay minimal amount of money to Blizzard, yet they forced other broadcasting companies(such as ongamenet and mbcgame) to pay them. When companies refused, KeSPA pulled all the players out of MSL. -_- Blizzard have been quite supportive of Korean starcraft leagues until then. I mean..I can't believe how many ppl are just babbling here without trying to get any information other than those that were spoon fed to them. I'm not saying that Blizzard is a victm here, but if you actually think that we should support KeSPA, you're either crazy or have no idea what is actually going on. | ||
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lololcat
United States5 Posts
On October 19 2010 16:26 writer22816 wrote: Umm first off esports is good for SC so your ridiculous porn analogy is irrevelant. Second, I would agree that blizzard would have some IP rights to BW if Kespa just picked their game off the ground, broadcasted it, and made a big buck. However, THIS IS NOT THE CASE. Look at the blizzard maps and countless third party tools that had to be made before SC could even be played competitively. If you followed the scene and looked at what blizzard did for competitive BW (read: jack shit) then you would realize that blizzard doesnt deserve money from kespa. LOL what is KeSPA doing other than trying to milk the money out? not that I blame them for that. If you think KeSPA developed Korean e-sports, please please learn your materials before you talk about it. KeSPA may have been one of driving force that developed e-sports before SK took control of it. But now, it is not the same group anymore. | ||
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Meriones
43 Posts
Kespa deliberately loses money every year. That is their goal. They are non-profit. The money goes all to the players who can be professional this way. And I am not taking just about salaries. It costs a lot of money to run a team of 20 professional players. Who do Kespa milk? OGN and MBC? Give me a break. They get to broadcast free stuff using minimal resources to reach a big audience advertisers love? You really think Kespa shouldn't sell broadcasting rights and just give them away for free? MBC and OGN should just get free money while Kespa makes a 500 million euro loss every year? If I were a player on a low wage and Kespa gave away a couple of millions away for free I would be pissed. That's stupid. | ||
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Weedk
United States507 Posts
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battarro
United States59 Posts
I doubt every team costs 40 million euros. Considering the current player salaries. At most the best player salary is 0.25 mill, if you are flash or JD. Now are you saying the team administrative costs are over $55 million, when they pay at most 3 million in salaries to the players.? ( im just pulling the 3 million out of my ass, but it is a safe bet that the accumulated players salary is a lot lower than that.) And if they do cost $55 millions, where do the rest of the money goes? Really ask yourself where does it goes? You either have your numbers wrong or the teams are really milking the players and the system for all that they are worth. Second The porn analogy works because it shows the case where the content is being used in a matter the author, does not agrees with. Both morally and economically. You can not say that "well esports falls under the good side of the spectrum" so it is ok to use it without the author authorization, because IT IS NOT YOUR product. Only the owner of the product can determine if they agree or not with the usage, not the public opinion, or even worst the individuals making money off it. | ||
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Meriones
43 Posts
It doesn't really matter if it is 5 million or 40. Those teams are losing money. Kespa is milking the players harder because the teams are more expensive? This is so backwards. The players are worth money because they are good at SC BW. Why should they be free? And how is it milking the player if Kespa gets money for the broadcasting rights. Those teams maintain, train and pay the players. The players are under contract of the teams. Kespa buys it from the players and then Kespa should give it for free to MBC/OGN, who are actually the only ones that really profit from this entire system? That just means less money for the players. And the teams really take amazing care of their players. Yeah, eStro was being xenophobic to foreigners. Yes, they have Korean work ethics but guess what; it's Korea. Yeah, it is wrong and counter productive. But it is not deliberate exploitation but ignorance. And that players don't have a player union is their own fault. Why did they never start one? Yes, those in charge of Kespa are the sponsors and the teams. When it is player interest vs sponsor/team interest then players get the short end of the stick. But without Kespa sponsors, which Blizzard is at war with, SC BW has to do with many many less millions. Blizzard, by claiming ownership over the players and over match broadcasting rights are violating the IP rights of the players. The players create the games, not Blizzard. No one will watch Blizzard's AIs play SC BW. The players determine the actual value. Blizzard should be glad to Korea. They make up more than half of all SC BW sales. Without esports SC BW wouldn't have sold more in Korea than in Europe. It is such a huge part of all the sales, it will cost Blizzard hundreds of millions if that hadn't happened. And instead of being grateful they accuse S Korea of piracy and strip progamers of their IP rights and try to destroy the esports infrastructure the community as a whole has been able to build up. Don't forget that thanks to Kespa players didn't have to pay a huge chunk of cash over their prize money. And you people need to stop being hypocrites. Do you know how this community would look like if Blizzard enforced on TL/foreigner SC/SC2 what they try to enforce in Korea. It would be a disaster. If the Blizzard ideology to esports doesn't fail in court soon, and other devs start to copy it, esports is dead. Devs will be in control, milk it, and let it die when they gain from it. Blizzard isn't in the business to make esports work. They just want to sell games. SC2 esports is good for them now. That will change in the future. Then the just pull the plug. Kespa is only there to make esports succeed and they are nonprofit. | ||
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battarro
United States59 Posts
And the teams really take amazing care of their players. Yeah, eStro was being xenophobic to foreigners. Yes, they have Korean work ethics but guess what; it's Korea. Yeah, it is wrong and counter productive. But it is not deliberate exploitation but ignorance. And that players don't have a player union is their own fault. Why did they never start one? How can not say this with a straight face? Do you know how B team players were treated, in terms of working conditions and salary? Yes, those in charge of Kespa are the sponsors and the teams. When it is player interest vs sponsor/team interest then players get the short end of the stick. But without Kespa sponsors, which Blizzard is at war with, SC BW has to do with many many less millions. In the end, Blizzard is at war with those companies that are making a bank, via advertising or direct revenues based on BLIZZARD's product. Kespa is only there to make esports succeed and they are nonprofit. Kespa is only there to make esporst ( that they control and can profit from) succeed. And to actively block players from participating on other tournaments they do not control the revenue/broadcasting. Do you know the GOM TV classic fiasco? | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5556 Posts
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Meriones
43 Posts
On October 20 2010 02:27 battarro wrote: How can not say this with a straight face? Do you know how B team players were treated, in terms of working conditions and salary? How can you say that with a straight face? How can you support Blizzard and complain about B teamer salaries? You want to take away 95% of the income of esports and give more to B teamers? B teamers don't get a lot of money for the amount of work they are doing. No kidding. But they aren't there to work and make easy money. They are there to try to become top players. What matters is that what the teams do for their players. Those players are their out of their free will. If they weren't on a team they still would have to practice just as much for just as little money. A team is only a bonus and that's why so many Koreans tried to get on one. In the end, Blizzard is at war with those companies that are making a bank, via advertising or direct revenues based on BLIZZARD's product. No one is really making any money. Except Blizzard indirectly and OGN/MBC a little bit. And the fans and players. Fans get to watch for free and players get team support unimaginable in any other esports industry. You can argue KT, CJ, etc sponsor because it also has benefits. But you surely can't prove that in court. Giving away money doesn't make you rich, even though advertising isn't just charity. But really, you think Blizzard should charge sponsors for giving money because they benefit from it? Where was Blizzard all these years? They never sponsored anything? If those sponsors all get to have free money by giving away money why didn't Blizzard do anything? Ooh wait, they already got free advertising and made 250 million dollars of sales that way. What did Korea ever get back from all that money? Nothing but a stab in the back. Kespa is only there to make esporst ( that they control and can profit from) succeed. And to actively block players from participating on other tournaments they do not control the revenue/broadcasting. Do you know the GOM TV classic fiasco? You mean that league Kespa authorized but teams didn't want to participate in, for various reasons. And then got a Judas kiss from Blizzard. Kespa authorized Gomtv classic. Estro/SKT/OGN/MBC hurt it. Blizzard killed it. | ||
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ptz
Romania251 Posts
Blizzard did sponsor GomTv, and Kespa killed it cuz Blizzard was starting to annoy them with requests. They are the expression of corporate greed, not Blizzard, because if they dont control it, they dont want it. That is why they are batshit scared of sc2. As someone very nicely put it in another post, Kespa are like the labor union that outlived its usefulness, and is now trying to still keep control by any means. They are regulating everything, from player salary to free agency rules so that the players dont benefit, just corporations. Trying to defend them is just silly, while your only argument is they have built the esport scene in Korea. If it werent for kespa it would have been someone else, and i guess in 2 years you will see how a scene can flourish without kespa - yea, im talkin about sc2. If the fans like it, the scene will grow, and the tv companies will broadcast it. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5556 Posts
On October 20 2010 03:12 ptz wrote: what a pile of rubbish. 20 million a year ? Where did this number come from ? Some kespa dude ? If it's more than 5 million i would be amazed. Again, its not like someone puts a gun to these corporations to sponsor teams. They do it because they benefit from it, its what SPONSORSHIP means. You give money and you receive image. You dont "sponsor" a team and then start crying out that omg you are non profit and you are doing it only to grow esports. That is a pile of rubbish, and only a simpleton can buy that crap. Blizzard did sponsor GomTv, and Kespa killed it cuz Blizzard was starting to annoy them with requests. They are the expression of corporate greed, not Blizzard, because if they dont control it, they dont want it. That is why they are batshit scared of sc2. As someone very nicely put it in another post, Kespa are like the labor union that outlived its usefulness, and is now trying to still keep control by any means. They are regulating everything, from player salary to free agency rules so that the players dont benefit, just corporations. Trying to defend them is just silly, while your only argument is they have built the esport scene in Korea. If it werent for kespa it would have been someone else, and i guess in 2 years you will see how a scene can flourish without kespa - yea, im talkin about sc2. If the fans like it, the scene will grow, and the tv companies will broadcast it. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/click_online/6252524.stm "There are about 300 professional gamers in South Korea who play for 11 teams which are run by big business conglomerates which pay each of them a salary. Each team has a house where the players live and train, and Ma Jae-Yoon invited Click to visit his. People practising their gaming skills They are just practising a lot to win. If they want to lose they don't need to play that much Team manager Sean Oh In the main training centre there about are about 20 pro-gamers. Sean Oh manages the team, which he says costs the conglomerate $20m (£10m) a year." Can you stop posting nonesense now, PLEASE? | ||
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ptz
Romania251 Posts
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