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[Spoiler] Next Bonjwa? - Page 6

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Base
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
United States36 Posts
February 08 2009 20:36 GMT
#101
can you really be a bonjwa without being number 1 on the power rank? >_>

jk ... sort of?
d(O.o)a
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Canada5066 Posts
February 08 2009 20:36 GMT
#102
On February 09 2009 04:51 Hot_Bid wrote:
Edited title.

I think the big issue here is Bisu being eliminated from the recent MSL. There's something different about never making it through prelims and being eliminated from the Ro32. Savior not making it through offline prelims into the OSL seemed somehow more forgivable than Bisu losing in his MSL group with 3 zergs. Add to that getting blown out 2-0 in the OSL by July's apprentice didn't help, even if he redeemed that with a sick run through the wildcard.

I think everyone would be much more comfortable with the "Bisu for bonjwa" train if he just qualified for MSL Ro16. If Bisu wins this next OSL, then we can ask this question and the answer would probably be yes.



That's just the thing they are JULY's apprentice, the protoss slayer. Add that to the fact that his style is probably the most studied of all pro-gamers. Bisu will need to reinvent his PvZ if he wants to win games in the starleagues against them simply because they WILL find counters for his playstyle and they will study every tendency that he has.

Bisu is definitely a good candidate for Bonjwa simply because when he does win games he shows such a crazy level of dominance it's astounding.

You also have to keep in mind just how much the game has changed and how the level of play has raised so much since past bonjwas. Bisu IS a very dominant figure in progaming these days and anybody who goes against him should be prepared or he will trounce them.

Of course him being eliminated from MSL and OSL is pretty bad but I mean come on think about how much Savior Magma Zero and By.hero would have studied his play. Combine that with him going 6-0 in Wildcard dominating Jangbi 3-1 in Gom and showing for the most part great play in Proleague bisu is definitely Bonjwa material.
Hi.
jello_biafra
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
United Kingdom6642 Posts
February 08 2009 20:37 GMT
#103
On February 09 2009 05:31 monstar123 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 09 2009 05:00 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
Put him against the other top 5 players in the world right now and you cannot really predict the outcome.

Bisu vs Flash
Bisu vs Jaedong
Bisu vs Leta??
Bisu vs Jangbi (2 x 3-1 might beg to differ though)
Bisu vs Stork?

A bonjwa should be dominating alone imo. Nada boxer oov and savior all did that.
Its sooo much harder to get bonjwastatus these days coz everyone is simply so much better atm.



Bisu>Flash , he did it in GOM and in PL
Bisu<>Jaedong , will see
Bisu>>>>>Leta , LoL ho could you compare Leta with Bisu. U must be mad.
Bisu>>>>>>Jangbi , proved
Bisu>>>Stork , proved lately,pl games + Stork is slumping

I think that you underestimate Leta, Sir.

However I pretty much agree with you on the other players.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions | aka Probert[PaiN] @ iccup / godlikeparagon @ twitch | my BW stream: http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/jello_biafra
monstar123
Profile Joined December 2008
United States516 Posts
February 08 2009 20:48 GMT
#104
On February 09 2009 05:37 jello_biafra wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 09 2009 05:31 monstar123 wrote:
On February 09 2009 05:00 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
Put him against the other top 5 players in the world right now and you cannot really predict the outcome.

Bisu vs Flash
Bisu vs Jaedong
Bisu vs Leta??
Bisu vs Jangbi (2 x 3-1 might beg to differ though)
Bisu vs Stork?

A bonjwa should be dominating alone imo. Nada boxer oov and savior all did that.
Its sooo much harder to get bonjwastatus these days coz everyone is simply so much better atm.



Bisu>Flash , he did it in GOM and in PL
Bisu<>Jaedong , will see
Bisu>>>>>Leta , LoL ho could you compare Leta with Bisu. U must be mad.
Bisu>>>>>>Jangbi , proved
Bisu>>>Stork , proved lately,pl games + Stork is slumping

I think that you underestimate Leta, Sir.

However I pretty much agree with you on the other players.


My lord, i don't underestimate Leta, he is dominating player too. His TvT and TvZ(it is 2009, except MJY) are unbeatable lately.But his TvP is not S-class.He is not tvp rival for Bisu.Flash could not beat Bisu lately, how can we talk about "Leta vs Bisu"
Rostam
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States2552 Posts
February 08 2009 20:49 GMT
#105
On February 09 2009 05:37 jello_biafra wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 09 2009 05:31 monstar123 wrote:
On February 09 2009 05:00 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
Put him against the other top 5 players in the world right now and you cannot really predict the outcome.

Bisu vs Flash
Bisu vs Jaedong
Bisu vs Leta??
Bisu vs Jangbi (2 x 3-1 might beg to differ though)
Bisu vs Stork?

A bonjwa should be dominating alone imo. Nada boxer oov and savior all did that.
Its sooo much harder to get bonjwastatus these days coz everyone is simply so much better atm.



Bisu>Flash , he did it in GOM and in PL
Bisu<>Jaedong , will see
Bisu>>>>>Leta , LoL ho could you compare Leta with Bisu. U must be mad.
Bisu>>>>>>Jangbi , proved
Bisu>>>Stork , proved lately,pl games + Stork is slumping

I think that you underestimate Leta, Sir.

However I pretty much agree with you on the other players.


Leta hasn't proven anything in TvP, he's been destroyed both times he's faced competent PvTers.

I don't think Bisu is a clear favorite over Flash in a boX. I'm a little worried about Jaedong psychologically after his recent matches but hopefully he'll show us some great games against Bisu. And I still think July would be an enormous favorite against Bisu in any series right now.
BW forever || Thall
n.DieJokes
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States3443 Posts
February 08 2009 20:53 GMT
#106
I just don't think he's a step above the other s-class players. He strikes me more as a toss Julyzerg; very good but nothing more
MyLove + Your Love= Supa Love
Emptyness
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
Bulgaria1016 Posts
February 08 2009 20:53 GMT
#107
Well, I will wait for his OSL title before say that he is the next bonjwa, but he is damn close to it - and noone is even near his place .
Fall down 9 times, Get up 10.
Ethelis
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States2400 Posts
February 08 2009 20:54 GMT
#108
Leta has been putting people to shame but i agree he hasnt proven anything in TvP thus you cant throw Leta vs Bisu cause he'd get raped

i personally do think bisu is favorite over flash but it depends on people's concept of clear favorite.
Disabled gamer - Diamond 3 (LoL) D+ Rank scrublord on BW. Bisu doesnt need DTs, He uses probes. just ask Flash.
Athos
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States2484 Posts
February 08 2009 20:59 GMT
#109
Regardless of what happens he will go down as the best Protoss player of all time. That's why I think Bisu seems so unworried about his future.
minus_human
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
4784 Posts
February 08 2009 21:06 GMT
#110
If Bisu would have been 4 or 5 years older, and would have started playing at an earlier time, starcraft would've had a whole different story, and it would have been Protoss dominated.
d(O.o)a
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Canada5066 Posts
February 08 2009 21:22 GMT
#111
On February 09 2009 06:06 minus_human wrote:
If Bisu would have been 4 or 5 years older, and would have started playing at an earlier time, starcraft would've had a whole different story, and it would have been Protoss dominated.


No. Go back 4 or 5 years and look at the difference in APM, Maps, and strategies. Bisu would not have played how he does now simply because:

A) The maps wouldn't allow it
B) Bisu didn't invent everything himself, and the reason he "revolutionized" PvZ is because back then Savior's style was dominating so he countered that style.
C) Chances are he wouldn't even think the same way he does now about builds and maps and whatnot, he would be in the same mindset as the protoss of the past.
Hi.
peidongyang
Profile Joined January 2009
Canada2084 Posts
February 08 2009 21:25 GMT
#112
July not a bonjwa?
the throws never bothered me anyway
Monsen
Profile Joined December 2002
Germany2548 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-08 21:32:41
February 08 2009 21:28 GMT
#113
On February 09 2009 01:32 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:
If you have to ask if he's bonjwa, he's not bonjwa.


Exactly. Too many players perfectly capable of beating each other at the top today.
11 years and counting- TL #680
Monsen
Profile Joined December 2002
Germany2548 Posts
February 08 2009 21:33 GMT
#114
On February 09 2009 05:36 Base wrote:
can you really be a bonjwa without being number 1 on the power rank? For several months?



Fixed it for you
11 years and counting- TL #680
imperfect
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Canada1652 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-08 21:41:48
February 08 2009 21:40 GMT
#115
yeah, as much as i love bisu, i'm not this blind;;

he's not a bonjwa, not yet at least.

not until he wins a OSL~



PS: wow at nada... he dominated hard --;;
blind bisu free and anytime fanboy.
Signet
Profile Joined March 2007
United States1718 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-08 21:49:49
February 08 2009 21:43 GMT
#116
On February 09 2009 03:37 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 09 2009 03:30 SerpentFlame wrote:
Right now, you can barely pick Bisu over Flash and a faltering Stork, while you have to hedge the odds for Jaedong against Bisu at the moment.. Just because Bisu right now may be better than sAviOr during his reign (debatable) doesn't mean Bisu is a Bonjwa, since, as many others established he doesn't have dominion over the Starleagues.

This.

Bonjwa is a relative term. It reflects how dominant a player is relative to other players. Bisu is far better than past Bonjwas were in their heyday, but the fact is, player skill these days is much too high for him to be called Bonjwa.

Completely agree. In most sports, the best player of the current era is the best player ever. Not necessarily the most dominant, but better in an absolute skill Sense. Imagine Kobe Bryant as he is today playing in the 1950s NBA or the Pittsburgh Steelers going up against Vince Lombardi's Packers. In those sports it's a difference of size and speed. In starcraft, it's APM and understanding (better builds, timing, macro/micro). Starcraft has evolved at a faster rate than athletic sports. 3 years in SC right now is like three decades in the NBA.

Two years ago, Bisu was good enough to end sAviOr's dominance. He is an even stronger player today. Honestly I would take Flash or Jaedong over the past bonjwas as well. The things that made bonjwas dominant are necessary just to be S-class today.

No other bonjwa has had to deal with a trio of challengers as strong as Flash, Jaedong, and Stork. I expect that this trend will continue and that nobody will ever again dominate starcraft the way a player like NaDa did.


The chart on the first page shows a clear trend that I already believed was happening. The most dominant player is becoming less dominant over time.

BoxeR and NaDa were both #1 in kespa for 17 and 16 months consecutively. Oov and sAviOr held it for 8 months consecutively; of them only Oov held the #1 spot for a year in total.

NaDa won six OSL/MSL's, four during the time of his dominance. He also won GhemTV during his reign. Oov won 5 titles. sAviOr won 4. Bisu has also won 4, but over a longer amount of time than it took sAviOr to win his starleagues. (also GOM Classic did not exist back then)

NaDa was untouchable during the year in which he won 4 titles. Oddysay was 5-4 against him and all other rivals were dominated. iloveoov won the bulk of his titles over a 14 month span. July bested him 8-4 but everyone else was again dominated. This timespan included most of his 27 game win streak TvZ. sAviOr won his titles over a 10 month span. ChoJJa was 8-9 against him in that span, Midas 5-5, Hwasin 3-3. Saint went 2-1 against him and Shark 2-0. If we try to round it out to the full year, along comes Bisu who becomes the new dominant player. Only this time, that dominance barely lasts half a year and rivals are able to compete on an almost-even field.
NahLGaE
Profile Joined February 2008
Korea (South)523 Posts
February 08 2009 21:45 GMT
#117
no way. i dont think ppl even really care bout gcl. it hasnt earned the kind of prestige and respect as the other 2 established leagues yet and players dont even take it 100% srrsly (and so dont practice as much for it compared to the other leagues and pl). so bisu winning it doesnt really add anything to the discussion for me. as it stands he certainly does not show the kind of dominance that a real bonjwa does and has shown in the past.
마재윤.
Raithed
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
China7078 Posts
February 08 2009 21:46 GMT
#118
i wont say definite but he can be.
jinwoooooooo
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States176 Posts
February 08 2009 21:57 GMT
#119
Bonjwa status isn't an exact science. The amount of titles a player has won does not translate him into a bonjwa, and neither does the amount of players capable of beating him.

And honestly, players don't simply 'build up' to bonjwa status. It just happens somewhat spontaneously. Boxer, Oov, Nada, and Savior all burst into the scene (whether they've been playing under-par for a while or not) and utterly DOMINATED everyone. Bisu has been on the scene for a while and is slowly gaining his power, even with a 'slump' after his first semi-domination.

Bisu isn't bonjwa. At least not yet.
Ry-Masta-T
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
United States478 Posts
February 08 2009 22:14 GMT
#120
btw the title is a total spoiler for gom last night.
Speak the word...
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