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emucxg
Finland4559 Posts
![[image loading]](http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/9864/68154994al5.jpg) I think the only thing what Bisu miss is one OSL champion, but the recent GCL was also very unique, it's very hard to say =/ So I wanna hear you guys that what you think about this? Bisu for Next Bonjwa? Poll: Is Bisu Bonjwa? (Vote): Yes, the first protoss bonjwa! (Vote): No way | ||
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Itachii
Poland12466 Posts
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Zozma
United States1626 Posts
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disciple
9070 Posts
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hymn
Bulgaria832 Posts
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ShaLLoW[baY]
Canada12499 Posts
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Vasoline73
United States7751 Posts
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GGQ
Canada2653 Posts
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lokiM
United States3407 Posts
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Lukeeze[zR]
Switzerland6838 Posts
On February 08 2009 02:12 Hot_Bid wrote: if theres a legitimate debate about a player being a bonjwa or not (re: the bisu debate) that player is probably not a bonjwa. you don't see many people arguing whether nada, iloveoov, or savior were bonjwas in their time. i doubt people will look back at this time period and say "bisu was bonjwa" even if he wins this OSL, because you just don't drop out at the Ro32 in your "best" mu if you're the dominant player. | ||
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cosiant
Canada616 Posts
This is from the interview: - You still aren't hearing the name "Bonjwa", how do you feel? ▲ I was asked this before. Honestly, I don't really want to hear it. When I saw bonjwas in my eyes, they all rised to the top, and toppled down to the abyss. I don't want to be a bonjwa, rather I want to be that guy who was good and didn't fall into the abyss. If the guy himself doesn't want the title, than you should not give it to him. | ||
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Lukeeze[zR]
Switzerland6838 Posts
On February 09 2009 01:34 lokiM wrote: how can he be a bonjwa w/o winning an OSL? remember savior ? | ||
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funkie
Venezuela9374 Posts
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Atrioc
United States1865 Posts
Then its a serious discussion. Also: + Show Spoiler [GOM Classic Season 2] + Winning the upcoming "Best of GOM" Bo5 vs Jaedong for 10,000,000 won would help a lot, because his losing record vs both Flash and Jaedong makes him a tough candidate as the unquestioned best in Korea. | ||
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Puosu
6984 Posts
He did win an OSL.  Still I don't think bonjwaness shouldn't be measured (so much) in titles but rather just the amount of domination you do, like iloveoovs 70/70/80 winning percentages and 27-0 tvz. Being bonjwa to me means someone who is unbeatable for quite a while, Bisu still has very good contenders like JD/Flash who have big chances of taking games or even series from him. | ||
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
sorry | ||
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NovaTheFeared
United States7212 Posts
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hymn
Bulgaria832 Posts
On February 09 2009 01:38 Atrioc wrote: Winning the upcoming "Best of GOM" Bo5 vs Jaedong for 10,000,000 won would help a lot, because his losing record vs both Flash and Jaedong makes him a tough candidate as the unquestioned best in Korea. Too bad JD will catch Bisu in his weakest MU now and buttfuck him for 10 000 000 won thus burying this bonjwa talk. Shit and I wanted a toss bonjwa... | ||
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Lukeeze[zR]
Switzerland6838 Posts
On February 09 2009 01:39 Puosu wrote: He did win an OSL. Still I don't think bonjwaness shouldn't be measured (so much) in titles but rather just the amount of domination you do, like iloveoovs 70/70/80 winning percentages and 27-0 tvz. Being bonjwa to me means someone who is unbeatable for quite a while, Bisu still has very good contenders like JD/Flash who have big chances of taking games or even series from him. uh ? i know, but he was seen as the sc villain way before winning his first OSL | ||
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Atrioc
United States1865 Posts
One of the most amazing OSL runs of all time against the best Terrans in the world on bad Zerg maps? http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/leagues/66_ShinHan2006-3_OSL | ||
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Lukeeze[zR]
Switzerland6838 Posts
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
But one of the biggest argument around the Korean message boards is this People Against it We don't care if Bisu wins an osl or not, Savior was called bonjwa even before he won the OSL. The thing is when Savior became to that status, there was absolutely, NOBODY who could touch him. Sure Savior had 2 threats to his seat (Nal_Ra/Midas) but even both of them fell victim to savior numerous times. Hell, some can say it was 1 sided and the rivalry started because "Games were longer than 10 minutes." But 3 players still remain for Bisu. If Bisu can pull a savior, destroying each of these players in a BO5 whether the map favors for them or against them in a good game (or rape), then yes, he will be bonjwa. Right now, it is hard to say. Each generation had the 4 Kings ( 4 대 천 왕 ) The 1st generation of the 4 Kings were  BoxeR,  YellOw, NaDa and  Reach10 Golds, 16 Silvers (LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL) The 2nd generation of the 4 Kings were Nal_rA, July, iloveoov and GoRush12 Golds, 4 Silvers The 3rd generation of the 4 Kings were sAviOr, ChoJJa, Anytime and Midas(Note: Some people refer the 3rd Generation the "Savior Era." There were many good players during this period, but nobody was even close to Savior. Sometimes, people completely disregard the whole 3rd generation and call it "Savior's Prime") 7 Golds, 7 Silvers Now, the 4 Kings of our generation... Stork, Bisu, Jaedong and Flash11 Golds, 9 Silvers In each generation, you can see that only 1 player ends up being bonjwa (excluding nada, hes practically in every generation so its hard to say). I am going to say, we are 1/3'd of our way through the 4th generation. It is too early to tell. Right now the pro scene is so competitive it is impossible to tell who can come on top of who. So I will vote no. It is too early, and anything can happen. | ||
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rgfdxm
United States239 Posts
Edit: Or read that post ^. I should have posted one minute faster! | ||
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GinNtoniC
Sweden2945 Posts
On February 09 2009 01:26 Itachii wrote: Best protoss ever for sure, but I would wait with bonjwa status till he wins the OSL. | ||
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IrrasO
United States408 Posts
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
if you extend bonjwa status to 2006-02-01 ー 2007-02-01 his stats go up And If I cherry picked that, I could hit ~80% easily if I wanted. that's just a rough 12 month period, longer than the one on the chart. Which means whoever did that chart picked a really bad range. sAviOr 2006-02-01 ー 2007-02-01 All: 50 wins - 17 losses (74.63%) T: 15 wins - 8 losses (65.22%) Z: 16 wins - 6 losses (72.73%) P: 19 wins - 3 losses (86.36%) note how in 12 months, TLPD lists fewer games than the graph does in 9 months, so I don't know what's going on with that. If we take a years range for bisu (say 2007-02-01 ー 2008-02-01), we get: Bisu 2007-02-01 ー 2008-02-01 All: 63 wins - 42 losses (60.00%) T: 29 wins - 22 losses (56.86%) Z: 21 wins - 10 losses (67.74%) P: 13 wins - 10 losses (56.52%) If you want to try and find a year-long period with better stats than that, go for it. | ||
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emucxg
Finland4559 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
It's not impossible for him to reach Bonjwa status, but he's not there yet. | ||
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]343[
United States10328 Posts
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Stingray
United Kingdom13 Posts
On February 09 2009 01:40 hymn wrote: Too bad JD will catch Bisu in his weakest MU now and buttfuck him for 10 000 000 won thus burying this bonjwa talk. Shit and I wanted a toss bonjwa... Agreed. | ||
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
it could be a fucking huge hit. | ||
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KlaCkoN
Sweden1661 Posts
I think the problem with that definition is the insane amount of games nowadays coupled with the increased emphasis on good PL results. Savior didn't even _qualify_ for OSL until the very very end of his reign. (He won it a week or so before Bisu went 3-0 vs him?) And (someone might have to correct me here) but I I don't think his PL performances was anything compared to that of Leta or Flash today either. He was still considered _the_ player though, because he placed highly in MSL year after year (5 finals in a row :o) and crushed any possible contender in events like the superfight. However: a new player emerging today getting old saviors results he probably wouldn't be called "bonjwa" in the first place. Msl after msl while not qualifying for OSL and getting knocked out of GOM in like r.o 64, getting good but not spectacular P.L results. No i don't think you guys would call such a player bonjwa. The sheer number of games that a player needs to win in order to be called dominant nowadays is just insane. Both Bisu and Flash have ELO peaks comparable to that of _iloveoov_ commonly refered to as the most dominant player in the history of starcraft. But due to them "spending" so many of their wins on PL and spreading them over 3 leagues we just don't get the same feel from it. | ||
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Fzero
United States1503 Posts
There are SO many good Protoss to practice against, I just don't see a Protoss taking the next step. | ||
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indecision
Germany818 Posts
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disciple
9070 Posts
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Vasoline73
United States7751 Posts
On February 09 2009 01:49 fusionsdf wrote: also lol at the super misleading savior stats. if you extend bonjwa status to 2006-02-01 ー 2007-02-01 his stats go up And If I cherry picked that, I could hit ~80% easily if I wanted. that's just a rough 12 month period, longer than the one on the chart. Which means whoever did that chart picked a really bad range. sAviOr 2006-02-01 ー 2007-02-01 All: 50 wins - 17 losses (74.63%) T: 15 wins - 8 losses (65.22%) Z: 16 wins - 6 losses (72.73%) P: 19 wins - 3 losses (86.36%) note how in 12 months, TLPD lists fewer games than the graph does in 9 months, so I don't know what's going on with that. If we take a years range for bisu (say 2007-02-01 ー 2008-02-01), we get: Bisu 2007-02-01 ー 2008-02-01 All: 63 wins - 42 losses (60.00%) T: 29 wins - 22 losses (56.86%) Z: 21 wins - 10 losses (67.74%) P: 13 wins - 10 losses (56.52%) If you want to try and find a year-long period with better stats than that, go for it. QFT! And ohhhh my god, if Bisu beats Jaedong in this Bo5 (who may be entering a slump IMO due to dropping MSL/WL) I'm going to shoot myself because the "BISU IS GOD!" "BISU BEAT JAEDONG" talk will never end. Although I'm just giving Bisu fans a hard time, I'm semi-serious because though it will be impressive, Jaedong will probably be having an off day and lose. | ||
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Puosu
6984 Posts
On February 09 2009 01:41 Lukeeze[zR] wrote: uh ? i know, but he was seen as the sc villain way before winning his first OSL Ah, I don't really even remember when people started calling MJY a bonjwa, not sure if the term was familiar to foreigners back then. | ||
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monstar123
United States516 Posts
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
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DamageControL
United States4222 Posts
On February 09 2009 02:10 Vasoline73 wrote: QFT! And ohhhh my god, if Bisu beats Jaedong in this Bo5 (who may be entering a slump IMO due to dropping MSL/WL) I'm going to shoot myself because the "BISU IS GOD!" "BISU BEAT JAEDONG" talk will never end. Although I'm just giving Bisu fans a hard time, I'm semi-serious because though it will be impressive, Jaedong will probably be having an off day and lose. And talk like this is the reason why bisu wouldn't be a bonjwa with out a 90% winrate. Oh....that guy had an offday, those maps were so toss favored. Savior did it with ANTI-zerg map who cares if his elo and kespa and winrate were all worse. Now that being said I don't think Bisu is quite at the level yet for him to be a "bonjwa" in our eyes, just dominant. Note that he dropped off for a while so it only feels like one msl and one gsi | ||
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KlaCkoN
Sweden1661 Posts
On February 09 2009 02:16 DamageControL wrote: And talk like this is the reason why bisu wouldn't be a bonjwa with out a 90% winrate. Oh....that guy had an offday, those maps were so toss favored. Savior did it with ANTI-zerg map who cares if his elo and kespa and winrate were all worse. Now that being said I don't think Bisu is quite at the level yet for him to be a "bonjwa" in our eyes, just dominant. Note that he dropped off for a while so it only feels like one msl and one gsi The only reason savior had such an insane win rate was because he didnt even play games in OSL :p (And GOM obviously didnt exist) Bisu's elo peak is comparable to savior's at his height. You have a point about the maps though, it definetely feels like Bisu only does well on maps generally considered "toss maps". | ||
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
There are too many talents out there that can surpass Bisu on a good day, the obvious ones being Jaedong and Flash. Can you say for sure that if Bisu played his very best against Jaedong playing his very best, that Bisu would win for sure? | ||
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minus_human
4784 Posts
The very existence of this thread and this debate is a sign that Bisu isn't a Bonjwa. However, it seems very likely that there will never be a bonjwa in starcraft again. | ||
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
Savior was the last champion of the shitty MSL structures. | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
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roadrunner_sc
United States1220 Posts
Nonetheless, losing a final to Mind really shouldn't diminish the consistency and dominance Bisu has shown time and time again. Who knows, maybe the newer generation might all-together redefine the concept of Bonjwa. Players like Flash and Jaedong shouldn't be labeled as "lesser" just because of tougher competition. | ||
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eshlow
United States5210 Posts
On February 09 2009 01:32 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote: If you have to ask if he's bonjwa, he's not bonjwa. Yup ------------------------------------ Also, bad picking of dates for the stats. You should go by when the respective players hit their ELO peak. This leads to ALL of those players (besides boxer who we're missing games and such for) have win % around 80%. | ||
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sixghost
United States2096 Posts
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emucxg
Finland4559 Posts
On February 09 2009 02:44 eshlow wrote: Yup ------------------------------------ Also, bad picking of dates for the stats. You should go by when the respective players hit their ELO peak. This leads to ALL of those players (besides boxer who we're missing games and such for) have win % around 80%. I've said before, it's not random date, it depend on kespa ranking. (while the player is 1st on Kespa) | ||
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Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
Not to nitpick, as I will still watch it, but the result won't be too surprising T.T On another note, Savior was epically untouchable for a year. Bisu hasn't done that, and saw more suck sooner than Savior did. So if Bisu is still winning leagues in early 2010, then I'll concede he may be the first Protoss bonjwa. | ||
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mrgerry
United States1508 Posts
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minus_human
4784 Posts
On February 09 2009 02:37 SuperJongMan wrote: It's stupid because Bisu is pulling in better results than Savior was at his time. Savior was the last champion of the shitty MSL structures. There are other dominant players coexisting with Bisu. Even if Flash, Jaedong and Stork (even if he seems slumping) aren't as successful, they exert a similar domination to Bisu's. A bonjwa is the absolute ruler, without competition | ||
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eshlow
United States5210 Posts
On February 09 2009 02:45 emucxg wrote: I've said before, it's not random date, it depend on kespa ranking. (while the player is 1st on Kespa) KeSPA rankings are crappy because of their decay factor. Someone can just fall off the face of the earth and still be #1 for a couple months... | ||
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Athos
United States2484 Posts
That being said I consider Bisu to be Bonjwa in my mind now. Those who disagree can go cry under a rock. | ||
JWD
United States12607 Posts
On February 09 2009 02:56 mrgerry wrote: I should just start watching matches live :/ Word, this title is definitely a spoiler. Edit: can a mod please edit the title? | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
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gm.tOSS
Germany898 Posts
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emucxg
Finland4559 Posts
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Fontong
United States6454 Posts
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
On February 09 2009 02:56 minus_human wrote: There are other dominant players coexisting with Bisu. Even if Flash, Jaedong and Stork (even if he seems slumping) aren't as successful, they exert a similar domination to Bisu's. A bonjwa is the absolute ruler, without competition What? Nada, Chojja, Anyime, or Midas didn't exist in Savior's time? Bisu in his day has many more games to play and vs better people. I mean, Savior smashed Kingdom Reach and Ra all day and night to lol his way thru MSL. Silver... do you even remember Silver?????? | ||
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BBS
Germany204 Posts
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emucxg
Finland4559 Posts
On February 09 2009 03:10 Fontong wrote: dude the title of this thread is a spoiler I'm sorry please mod change the title, but to what? = =# | ||
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SerpentFlame
415 Posts
On February 09 2009 03:11 SuperJongMan wrote: What? Nada, Chojja, Anyime, or Midas didn't exist in Savior's time? Bisu in his day has many more games to play and vs better people. I mean, Savior smashed Kingdom Reach and Ra all day and night to lol his way thru MSL. Silver... do you even remember Silver?????? The difference is that any sane man would autopick sAviOr over Midas, Anytime, and Nada during the reign of terror, with ChoJJa being only slightly iffy due to the randomness of ZvZ coupled with that being sAviOr's worst matchup. People were saying things along the lines of "Zomg! Midas took one game off of sAviOr in a BoX while getting completely outclassed in the rest of the sets! sAviOr dropped one game? What an upset!" Silver of course, is like Rock - one hit wonder, and is totally irrelevant to the general scene at the time. Right now, you can barely pick Bisu over Flash and a faltering Stork, while you have to hedge the odds for Jaedong against Bisu at the moment.. Just because Bisu right now may be better than Savior during his reign (debatable) doesn't mean Bisu is a Bonjwa, since, as many others established he doesn't have dominion over the Starleagues. | ||
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beefhamburger
United States3962 Posts
 You should have made the title anything BUT including either player's name. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On February 09 2009 03:30 SerpentFlame wrote: Right now, you can barely pick Bisu over Flash and a faltering Stork, while you have to hedge the odds for Jaedong against Bisu at the moment.. Just because Bisu right now may be better than Savior during his reign (debatable) doesn't mean Bisu is a Bonjwa, since, as many others established he doesn't have dominion over the Starleagues. This. Bonjwa is a relative term. It reflects how dominant a player is relative to other players. Bisu is far better than past Bonjwas were in their heyday, but the fact is, player skill these days is much too high for him to be called Bonjwa. | ||
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Samurai-
Slovenia2035 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
On February 09 2009 02:45 emucxg wrote: I've said before, it's not random date, it depend on kespa ranking. (while the player is 1st on Kespa) kespa can lag quite a bit and is a bit subjective see my blog http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=87459 for a list of all year-long spans. On February 09 2009 03:29 emucxg wrote: I'm sorry please mod change the title, but to what? = =# [spoiler]bisu & savior or something like that | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On February 09 2009 01:32 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote: ThisIf you have to ask if he's bonjwa, he's not bonjwa. | ||
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epicdoom
United States489 Posts
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d(O.o)a
Canada5066 Posts
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KizZBG
u gotta skate8152 Posts
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minus_human
4784 Posts
On February 09 2009 03:11 SuperJongMan wrote: What? Nada, Chojja, Anyime, or Midas didn't exist in Savior's time? Bisu in his day has many more games to play and vs better people. I mean, Savior smashed Kingdom Reach and Ra all day and night to lol his way thru MSL. Silver... do you even remember Silver?????? It was always crystal clear that savior is better than Nada or anyone else you mentioned there. So even though there were other spectacular players coexisting with savior, there was only ONE undisputed dominant player. Anyways I think the title of 'bonjwa' is given when the audience and other players/commentators perceive the said bonjwa in a certain way. Savior, oov, nada, boxer : they all had their unmistakable aura of invincibility surrounding them throughout their respective reigns. While no one can deny Bisu's skill and achievements, there is still something lacking. Bisu never had that aura, save for PvZ. And even here, Jaedong is a true contestant and no one can really say who's the clear favorite. In Savior's top match-up ZvP, there was no one really coming close to a challenge, not even rA, who was his so-called rival. If Bisu doesn't cement his status as a true Bonjwa in the following months, I'm pretty sure there won't be another bonjwa, ever. Also I think there's a big possibility that Bisu will become the most achieved SC player in another couple of years or so. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
first, he has to sustain the performance over a few more months. second, there are other players with good winrates and titles during the period, so bisu is not the only star. contrary to the solitary dominance of other players, you cannot say for sure that bisu is the guy. wait and see, i don't like his chances. | ||
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Baddieko
Singapore855 Posts
Nevertheless in protoss race he is still the best with most titles. | ||
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kemoryan
Spain1506 Posts
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Mikilatov
United States3897 Posts
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KOFgokuon
United States14892 Posts
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deathgod6
United States5064 Posts
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LonelyMargarita
1845 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + thx for ruining the GOM Finals for me Can a mod change it? | ||
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pooper-scooper
United States3108 Posts
On February 09 2009 01:30 hymn wrote: Just 5 more months at KeSPA No1 and an OSL title and he's got it. I agree, but this is no mean feat. | ||
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Cambium
United States16368 Posts
I still don't think bisu is dominant enough. There is still Flash, Jaedong, ForGG, Best and Stork who can give Bisu a good run for the money. During the oov and Savior eras, there was literally NO ONE who could compete with them. edit: and your title hardcore sucks, there are no other interpretations of "Bisu for next bonjwa" other than + Show Spoiler + he has beaten jangbin in the gom final. | ||
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Jyvblamo
Canada13788 Posts
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36372 Posts
I think the big issue here is Bisu being eliminated from the recent MSL. There's something different about never making it through prelims and being eliminated from the Ro32. Savior not making it through offline prelims into the OSL seemed somehow more forgivable than Bisu losing in his MSL group with 3 zergs. Add to that getting blown out 2-0 in the OSL by July's apprentice didn't help, even if he redeemed that with a sick run through the wildcard. I think everyone would be much more comfortable with the "Bisu for bonjwa" train if he just qualified for MSL Ro16. If Bisu wins this next OSL, then we can ask this question and the answer would probably be yes. | ||
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Zea!
9589 Posts
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hixhix
1156 Posts
Savior was called bonjwa before he won an OSL because every one was so far behind him. Casy was lucky and won an OSL, if he is lucky like that several times and got a few OSL titles, he isnt called bonjwa. So titles dont mean much but the skill compared to others. There are a few players at the moment like Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Jangbi... who can easily take games from Bisu any time. So Bisu is not a bonjwa yet, he might be in the future, but now, hell no. When 80% of ppl vote for Bisu when he plays any one, then he will be a bonjwa. | ||
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
Bisu vs Flash Bisu vs Jaedong Bisu vs Leta?? Bisu vs Jangbi (2 x 3-1 might beg to differ though) Bisu vs Stork? A bonjwa should be dominating alone imo. Nada boxer oov and savior all did that. Its sooo much harder to get bonjwastatus these days coz everyone is simply so much better atm. | ||
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disciple
9070 Posts
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Kula
United States140 Posts
On February 09 2009 01:49 fusionsdf wrote: also lol at the super misleading savior stats. if you extend bonjwa status to 2006-02-01 ー 2007-02-01 his stats go up And If I cherry picked that, I could hit ~80% easily if I wanted. that's just a rough 12 month period, longer than the one on the chart. Which means whoever did that chart picked a really bad range. sAviOr 2006-02-01 ー 2007-02-01 All: 50 wins - 17 losses (74.63%) T: 15 wins - 8 losses (65.22%) Z: 16 wins - 6 losses (72.73%) P: 19 wins - 3 losses (86.36%) note how in 12 months, TLPD lists fewer games than the graph does in 9 months, so I don't know what's going on with that. If we take a years range for bisu (say 2007-02-01 ー 2008-02-01), we get: Bisu 2007-02-01 ー 2008-02-01 All: 63 wins - 42 losses (60.00%) T: 29 wins - 22 losses (56.86%) Z: 21 wins - 10 losses (67.74%) P: 13 wins - 10 losses (56.52%) If you want to try and find a year-long period with better stats than that, go for it. It's 67 games over a year whereas bisu has 105 games over a year. How about when its around the same number of games? Starting from after Bisu lost to Stork in the Osl. All: Record: 60 wins - 20 losses (75.00%) vT: Record: 17 wins - 4 losses (80.95%) vZ: Record: 18 wins - 8 losses (69.23%) vP: Record: 25 wins - 8 losses (75.76%) What's more important, dominating for a year with less games played, or dominating through a shorter amount of time but with more games? | ||
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Kuja900
United States3564 Posts
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
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Rostam
United States2552 Posts
On February 09 2009 04:02 d(O.o)a wrote: Julyzerg 3-2 vs. Bisu The slayer of Bonjwas. No way, July would 3-0 Bisu easily unless all the games are played on Byzantium.. | ||
Aesop
Hungary11248 Posts
With the superior win percentage, two major titels in short time, and a shot at the OSL title, this is the closest Bisu will probably get. So what would make him bonjwa from now on? Being unchallengeable in all three matchups - Bisu is aiming for this at the time being. His PvP and PvT are beyond the top. There is no, absolutely no Protoss or Terran who would not be considered the underdog when going into a series with Bisu. Stork was the closest, Flash maybe, but both lost lately. His PvZ is where the worries are at the moment. Thus Bisu has to beat Jaedong convincingly in the season finals to redeem his PvZ. Winning any game that counts - A Bonjwa is the favourite in any series, be it Bo3, Bo5, not only through his expertise in the matchup but also due to being in form spot on. Bisu is showing that certitude lately, more than ever. His GOM run was flawless, taking out Flash on the way. He never looked troubled in the MSL. Thus he needs to win the OSL and win those BoX games in a deadly and convincing fashion, leaving no doubt that he could not be beaten on that very day. If all three conditions obtain: High win percentage, redeem his PvZ, win the OSL, Bisu would be called bonjwa. | ||
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FirstBorn
Romania3955 Posts
Bisu isn't a bonjwa. | ||
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Syrup
United States31 Posts
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cuddles
Australia10 Posts
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minus_human
4784 Posts
On February 09 2009 05:23 Aesop wrote: I think the majority agrees that Bisu is not bonjwa at the time being. But he is posting a more consistent record than through ANY period of his career. Even while winning the MSL back to back, he regularily lost in Proleague and dropped out in the OSL no later than Ro8. With the superior win percentage, two major titels in short time, and a shot at the OSL title, this is the closest Bisu will probably get. So what would make him bonjwa from now on? Being unchallengeable in all three matchups - Bisu is aiming for this at the time being. His PvP and PvT are beyond the top. There is no, absolutely no Protoss or Terran who would not be considered the underdog when going into a series with Bisu. Stork was the closest, Flash maybe, but both lost lately. His PvZ is where the worries are at the moment. Thus Bisu has to beat Jaedong convincingly in the season finals to redeem his PvZ. Winning any game that counts - A Bonjwa is the favourite in any series, be it Bo3, Bo5, not only through his expertise in the matchup but also due to being in form spot on. Bisu is showing that certitude lately, more than ever. His GOM run was flawless, taking out Flash on the way. He never looked troubled in the MSL. Thus he needs to win the OSL and win those BoX games in a deadly and convincing fashion, leaving no doubt that he could not be beaten on that very day. If all three conditions obtain: High win percentage, redeem his PvZ, win the OSL, Bisu would be called bonjwa. Even if what you say is legitimate, remember it's always a matter of 'will the commentators/Korean audience call him bonjwa?' It depends on how his victories are perceived, he must not only win, he must obliterate. Part of the reason why the other bonjwas were praised as such is because they each brought something new to the game, a completely new style that put them on another level than everybody else. While, of course, you could argue about Bisu's PvZ revolution, that was 2 years ago, and his innovated playstyle became more or less common (even though nobody equaled his performances) | ||
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monstar123
United States516 Posts
On February 09 2009 05:00 AnOth3rDAy wrote: Put him against the other top 5 players in the world right now and you cannot really predict the outcome. Bisu vs Flash Bisu vs Jaedong Bisu vs Leta?? Bisu vs Jangbi (2 x 3-1 might beg to differ though) Bisu vs Stork? A bonjwa should be dominating alone imo. Nada boxer oov and savior all did that. Its sooo much harder to get bonjwastatus these days coz everyone is simply so much better atm. Bisu>Flash , he did it in GOM and in PL Bisu<>Jaedong , will see Bisu>>>>>Leta , LoL ho could you compare Leta with Bisu. U must be mad. Bisu>>>>>>Jangbi , proved Bisu>>>Stork , proved lately,pl games + Stork is slumping | ||
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spetial
United States688 Posts
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VioleTAK
Israel4279 Posts
Bisu will win OSL :-) | ||
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Base
United States36 Posts
jk ... sort of? | ||
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d(O.o)a
Canada5066 Posts
On February 09 2009 04:51 Hot_Bid wrote: Edited title. I think the big issue here is Bisu being eliminated from the recent MSL. There's something different about never making it through prelims and being eliminated from the Ro32. Savior not making it through offline prelims into the OSL seemed somehow more forgivable than Bisu losing in his MSL group with 3 zergs. Add to that getting blown out 2-0 in the OSL by July's apprentice didn't help, even if he redeemed that with a sick run through the wildcard. I think everyone would be much more comfortable with the "Bisu for bonjwa" train if he just qualified for MSL Ro16. If Bisu wins this next OSL, then we can ask this question and the answer would probably be yes. That's just the thing they are JULY's apprentice, the protoss slayer. Add that to the fact that his style is probably the most studied of all pro-gamers. Bisu will need to reinvent his PvZ if he wants to win games in the starleagues against them simply because they WILL find counters for his playstyle and they will study every tendency that he has. Bisu is definitely a good candidate for Bonjwa simply because when he does win games he shows such a crazy level of dominance it's astounding. You also have to keep in mind just how much the game has changed and how the level of play has raised so much since past bonjwas. Bisu IS a very dominant figure in progaming these days and anybody who goes against him should be prepared or he will trounce them. Of course him being eliminated from MSL and OSL is pretty bad but I mean come on think about how much Savior Magma Zero and By.hero would have studied his play. Combine that with him going 6-0 in Wildcard dominating Jangbi 3-1 in Gom and showing for the most part great play in Proleague bisu is definitely Bonjwa material. | ||
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jello_biafra
United Kingdom6632 Posts
On February 09 2009 05:31 monstar123 wrote: Bisu>Flash , he did it in GOM and in PL Bisu<>Jaedong , will see Bisu>>>>>Leta , LoL ho could you compare Leta with Bisu. U must be mad. Bisu>>>>>>Jangbi , proved Bisu>>>Stork , proved lately,pl games + Stork is slumping I think that you underestimate Leta, Sir. However I pretty much agree with you on the other players. | ||
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monstar123
United States516 Posts
On February 09 2009 05:37 jello_biafra wrote: I think that you underestimate Leta, Sir. However I pretty much agree with you on the other players. My lord, i don't underestimate Leta, he is dominating player too. His TvT and TvZ(it is 2009, except MJY) are unbeatable lately.But his TvP is not S-class.He is not tvp rival for Bisu.Flash could not beat Bisu lately, how can we talk about "Leta vs Bisu" | ||
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Rostam
United States2552 Posts
On February 09 2009 05:37 jello_biafra wrote: I think that you underestimate Leta, Sir. However I pretty much agree with you on the other players. Leta hasn't proven anything in TvP, he's been destroyed both times he's faced competent PvTers. I don't think Bisu is a clear favorite over Flash in a boX. I'm a little worried about Jaedong psychologically after his recent matches but hopefully he'll show us some great games against Bisu. And I still think July would be an enormous favorite against Bisu in any series right now. | ||
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n.DieJokes
United States3443 Posts
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Emptyness
Bulgaria1016 Posts
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Ethelis
United States2396 Posts
i personally do think bisu is favorite over flash but it depends on people's concept of clear favorite. | ||
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Athos
United States2484 Posts
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minus_human
4784 Posts
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d(O.o)a
Canada5066 Posts
On February 09 2009 06:06 minus_human wrote: If Bisu would have been 4 or 5 years older, and would have started playing at an earlier time, starcraft would've had a whole different story, and it would have been Protoss dominated. No. Go back 4 or 5 years and look at the difference in APM, Maps, and strategies. Bisu would not have played how he does now simply because: A) The maps wouldn't allow it B) Bisu didn't invent everything himself, and the reason he "revolutionized" PvZ is because back then Savior's style was dominating so he countered that style. C) Chances are he wouldn't even think the same way he does now about builds and maps and whatnot, he would be in the same mindset as the protoss of the past. | ||
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peidongyang
Canada2084 Posts
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Monsen
Germany2548 Posts
On February 09 2009 01:32 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote: If you have to ask if he's bonjwa, he's not bonjwa. Exactly. Too many players perfectly capable of beating each other at the top today. | ||
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Monsen
Germany2548 Posts
On February 09 2009 05:36 Base wrote: can you really be a bonjwa without being number 1 on the power rank? For several months? Fixed it for you  | ||
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imperfect
Canada1652 Posts
he's not a bonjwa, not yet at least. not until he wins a OSL~ PS: wow at nada... he dominated hard --;; | ||
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Signet
United States1718 Posts
On February 09 2009 03:37 TheYango wrote: This. Bonjwa is a relative term. It reflects how dominant a player is relative to other players. Bisu is far better than past Bonjwas were in their heyday, but the fact is, player skill these days is much too high for him to be called Bonjwa. Completely agree. In most sports, the best player of the current era is the best player ever. Not necessarily the most dominant, but better in an absolute skill Sense. Imagine Kobe Bryant as he is today playing in the 1950s NBA or the Pittsburgh Steelers going up against Vince Lombardi's Packers. In those sports it's a difference of size and speed. In starcraft, it's APM and understanding (better builds, timing, macro/micro). Starcraft has evolved at a faster rate than athletic sports. 3 years in SC right now is like three decades in the NBA. Two years ago, Bisu was good enough to end sAviOr's dominance. He is an even stronger player today. Honestly I would take Flash or Jaedong over the past bonjwas as well. The things that made bonjwas dominant are necessary just to be S-class today. No other bonjwa has had to deal with a trio of challengers as strong as Flash, Jaedong, and Stork. I expect that this trend will continue and that nobody will ever again dominate starcraft the way a player like NaDa did. The chart on the first page shows a clear trend that I already believed was happening. The most dominant player is becoming less dominant over time. BoxeR and NaDa were both #1 in kespa for 17 and 16 months consecutively. Oov and sAviOr held it for 8 months consecutively; of them only Oov held the #1 spot for a year in total. NaDa won six OSL/MSL's, four during the time of his dominance. He also won GhemTV during his reign. Oov won 5 titles. sAviOr won 4. Bisu has also won 4, but over a longer amount of time than it took sAviOr to win his starleagues. (also GOM Classic did not exist back then) NaDa was untouchable during the year in which he won 4 titles. Oddysay was 5-4 against him and all other rivals were dominated. iloveoov won the bulk of his titles over a 14 month span. July bested him 8-4 but everyone else was again dominated. This timespan included most of his 27 game win streak TvZ. sAviOr won his titles over a 10 month span. ChoJJa was 8-9 against him in that span, Midas 5-5, Hwasin 3-3. Saint went 2-1 against him and Shark 2-0. If we try to round it out to the full year, along comes Bisu who becomes the new dominant player. Only this time, that dominance barely lasts half a year and rivals are able to compete on an almost-even field. | ||
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NahLGaE
Korea (South)523 Posts
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Raithed
China7078 Posts
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jinwoooooooo
United States176 Posts
And honestly, players don't simply 'build up' to bonjwa status. It just happens somewhat spontaneously. Boxer, Oov, Nada, and Savior all burst into the scene (whether they've been playing under-par for a while or not) and utterly DOMINATED everyone. Bisu has been on the scene for a while and is slowly gaining his power, even with a 'slump' after his first semi-domination. Bisu isn't bonjwa. At least not yet. | ||
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Ry-Masta-T
United States478 Posts
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BanZu
United States3329 Posts
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strongwind
United States862 Posts
On February 09 2009 01:35 cosiant wrote: Even Bisu himself is saying no way This is from the interview: - You still aren't hearing the name "Bonjwa", how do you feel? ▲ I was asked this before. Honestly, I don't really want to hear it. When I saw bonjwas in my eyes, they all rised to the top, and toppled down to the abyss. I don't want to be a bonjwa, rather I want to be that guy who was good and didn't fall into the abyss. If the guy himself doesn't want the title, than you should not give it to him. this quote says it all. He's making his own path, so while we're all debating whether he's some immeasurable term, he'll keep raking in the championships. Keep it up KTY! | ||
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Proposal
United States1310 Posts
On February 09 2009 07:16 BanZu wrote: At this point, yes, Bisu is more-or-less bonjwa. With the standards set by the previous ones, there is no way we are going to see another one... and that the competition is rising | ||
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TheTyranid
Russian Federation4333 Posts
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Lukeeze[zR]
Switzerland6838 Posts
On February 09 2009 04:09 Baddieko wrote: I dont think so. The GSL can't be counted as a major tourney. Some teams had pulled out. Best and Stork and many players drop the tourney to avoid schedule.congestion.[...] exactly who cares about 35k$ (+ 8k$ bonus vs jaedong) ? ~_~ | ||
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abakben
United States308 Posts
On February 09 2009 07:38 TheTyranid wrote: The biggest problem with this Bisu is Bonjwa debate is establishing a clear definition of what a Bonjwa is. There are several definitions of Bonjwa right now so TL needs to properly define the term. Otherwise, Bisu will always qualify as a Bonjwa from some points but won't qualify from others thus resulting in numerous threads of a never ending debate. I definitely agree with you. There should be a formal minimum requirements list. Otherwise it is pointless to argue his status. | ||
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darkemperor
Turkey725 Posts
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On February 09 2009 07:38 TheTyranid wrote: The biggest problem with this Bisu is Bonjwa debate is establishing a clear definition of what a Bonjwa is. There are several definitions of Bonjwa right now so TL needs to properly define the term. Otherwise, Bisu will always qualify as a Bonjwa from some points but won't qualify from others thus resulting in numerous threads of a never ending debate. Since the word was used without a clear definition to start off with, there is no way any discussion involving the words "bonjwa" will lead to a concrete answer. Each person has slightly different views on the subject, and that's why Korean communities argue over a crappy made up word to this date, and why TL.net has been doing the same since it caught the "bonjwa" fever. Savior was often refered to as "Mae-bonjwa" during his glory days without all the various connotations the word carries today. It was just an expression of how awesome Savior was at the time. "LimLeeChoi" (the surnames of Boxer, Nada, and Oov) was also a popular phrase, a phrase that grouped three of the most dominating terrans, or players for that matter, of the progaming scene so far. After Savior started to dominate like mad, It didn't take long for someone to create the phrase "LimLeeChoiMae". It just got accepted and the phrase spread like wildfire. And these four players were bonjwas by default since then. People just felt right about it I guess. People started to define the word after they used it. But how can one person successfully define the word so that it captures the brilliance of all these four players? We kind of feel it in our hearts, but there is no one criteria that makes all of us content. | ||
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[DUF]MethodMan
Germany1716 Posts
On topic: I don't think there will be any Bonjwa again. The reasons have been pointed out countless times in this and other threads. There are just too many top players and the training must have become such intensive, there wouldn't be any way to dominate using one or two builds (like Savior did). As much as I'm a Bisu fanboy and voting instantly "yes" (:D), after reading through this thread makes me doubt giving him Bonjwa status. I don't see any player coming close to be Bonjwa, it is, disregarding the players skill, just impossible nowadays. But moreover you have to agree on one thing, Bisu climbed out of his slump pretty quickly and he didn't just climb out of it, he was and still is the player to beat. I think this will be the new definition of "Bonjwa", the ability of climbing out of some sort of slump after losing important series. And with the incredible skill density AND the heavy amount of televised matches to be played nowadays it will be kinda normal to lose important series which undoubtfully can have such a psychological impact on the player so they tend to slump after it. | ||
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TheTyranid
Russian Federation4333 Posts
On February 09 2009 08:19 Letmelose wrote: People started to define the word after they used it. But how can one person successfully define the word so that it captures the brilliance of all these four players? We kind of feel it in our hearts, but there is no one criteria that makes all of us content. There is one criteria. During the reign of those 4 players, no other player came close to their skill level. They were favourites in any boX matchup and this were the "undisputed bests" of that time which is one of the proposed definitions of Bonjwa. The word Bonjwa roughly translates as "best" from Korean, right? Therefore undisputed best is the most accurate definition of Bonjwa. Bisu's individual title count is Bonjwa worthy. However he is NOT the undisputed best. If Bisu was the undisputed best, there would be no question if he could beat Jaedong in a bo5. Do you think there is any doubt in Bisu winning in a bo5 vs Jaedong? If you do, you acknowledge that Bisu is not a Bonjwa. There is a reason why this era is called the Post Bonjwa era. Ever since 3/3/07, there has been no undisputed best. In a time period where there are several players playing at an equal level, you can't have a Bonjwa, now matter how good the players play. You need a significant gap in skill and performance between #1 and #2 to have the #1 be a Bonjwa. There is no such gap between Bisu and JD/Flash. Even if Bisu won 10 starleagues and there were people stepping on his toes, he would not Be a Bonjwa. | ||
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disciple
9070 Posts
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eshlow
United States5210 Posts
1. Keep up his dominance (aka 75%+ winrate that he has going since Oct last year) 2. Beat Jaedong Bo5 (Feb 22nd... preferably 3-1 or 3-0) 3. Win this OSL with the unfavorable toss maps (going through a couple of Leta/Flash/Jaedong/Stork/etc.). I'd say that would be a good case for him with the MSL, OSL, and GOM titles plus dominance of peers. | ||
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fanatacist
10319 Posts
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
On February 09 2009 08:39 TheTyranid wrote: To be fair, Jaedong and July (?) are the ONLY people against whom Bisu would not be the clear favorite in a Bo5. (Not that this negates your point, but just to give credit where it's due.) edit: quotes > me | ||
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Atrioc
United States1865 Posts
there was a point in KESPA history when sAviOr was four-hundred points higher than the #2 (NaDa) and one-fucking-thousand points higher than the #3. That is so far above his closest competitors that there isnt a shadow of a doubt in his ability to beat anyone on earth. You cannot say the same about Bisu at this point. | ||
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Cambium
United States16368 Posts
On February 09 2009 10:02 Atrioc wrote: You guys... there was a point in KESPA history when sAviOr was four-hundred points higher than the #2 (NaDa) and one-fucking-thousand points higher than the #3. That is so far above his closest competitors that there isnt a shadow of a doubt in his ability to beat anyone on earth. You cannot say the same about Bisu at this point.  I like this argument. | ||
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mIsUZu
New Zealand528 Posts
Winning streak, consistency, karisma, stats, career.. I believe Savior will be the last bonjwa because it is just impossible to have someone dominiating the pro scene thesedays, what with such mechanical practice sessions each team has and the amount of competition that the new youngsters bring in.. | ||
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goldenkrnboi
United States3104 Posts
On February 09 2009 10:02 Atrioc wrote: You guys... there was a point in KESPA history when sAviOr was four-hundred points higher than the #2 (NaDa) and one-fucking-thousand points higher than the #3. That is so far above his closest competitors that there isnt a shadow of a doubt in his ability to beat anyone on earth. You cannot say the same about Bisu at this point. This is the definition of dominance | ||
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Night[Mare
Mexico4793 Posts
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meegrean
Thailand7699 Posts
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AzureEye
United States1360 Posts
Anyway Bisu is very close imo, but needs a tad more. I want to see his polished PvT and PvZ | ||
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fearus
China2164 Posts
Bisu is favourite against flash so........ | ||
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
On February 09 2009 11:24 fearus wrote: Bisu is favourite against jaedong Bisu is favourite against flash so........ not really | ||
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
Then he's a Bonjwa. | ||
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Sonu
Canada577 Posts
all the other ones do. hes getting a little bit of it, but aura isnt taht great. needs an OSL. | ||
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Mista
Singapore1022 Posts
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errol1001
454 Posts
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Avidkeystamper
United States8551 Posts
Seems like an appropriate title. | ||
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ambit!ous1
United States3662 Posts
Bisu said he doesnt care all i know is that Bisu is currently the most successful protoss progamer that ever played the game and that's all it matters to me <3 Taek! | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On February 09 2009 11:24 fearus wrote: Bisu is favourite against jaedong Bisu is favourite against flash so........ Jaedong is a clear favourite against Bisu, and Bisu and Flash are pretty even around now. | ||
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Kuja900
United States3564 Posts
On February 09 2009 10:02 Atrioc wrote: You guys... there was a point in KESPA history when sAviOr was four-hundred points higher than the #2 (NaDa) and one-fucking-thousand points higher than the #3. That is so far above his closest competitors that there isnt a shadow of a doubt in his ability to beat anyone on earth. You cannot say the same about Bisu at this point. You make a great point, imo bonjwa status is absolute dominance over your peers not how many leagues you win. | ||
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Vasoline73
United States7751 Posts
lol I love the matter of fact answer. I would say Jaedong is a favorite to Bisu and Flash is 50/50. | ||
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Nylan
United States795 Posts
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d(O.o)a
Canada5066 Posts
On February 09 2009 10:02 Atrioc wrote: You guys... there was a point in KESPA history when sAviOr was four-hundred points higher than the #2 (NaDa) and one-fucking-thousand points higher than the #3. That is so far above his closest competitors that there isnt a shadow of a doubt in his ability to beat anyone on earth. You cannot say the same about Bisu at this point. This was when the rest of the players were quite bad though keep in mind. The amount of great players and the level of the greatest players has increased so much since then. | ||
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FaCE_1
Canada6159 Posts
but still the #1 Protoss ever | ||
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
On February 09 2009 23:02 d(O.o)a wrote: This was when the rest of the players were quite bad though keep in mind. The amount of great players and the level of the greatest players has increased so much since then. yep hwasin, nada, iloveoov, midas, yarnc, casy, firebathero, sea, light, GGplay, anytime = ALL NOOBS | ||
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
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nezera
Indonesia176 Posts
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
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FirstBorn
Romania3955 Posts
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Eg!
Belgium49 Posts
Would you hold Bisu as a definitive favorite vs Leta? Well maybe, but would you also hold him as a definitive favorite vs Jaedong, Flash and Jangbi as well? He's not even close to being such a bad ass scary monster to me, so he ain't no bonjwa to me! | ||
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BlizzardTevez
33 Posts
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
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Lukeeze[zR]
Switzerland6838 Posts
On February 10 2009 00:46 Eg! wrote: I agree with Idra. Bonjwa is not about statistics or winning certain leagues and turnaments. A bonjwa is someone who dominates so hard that he's the definitive favorite no matter who he's up against. Would you hold Bisu as a definitive favorite vs Leta? Well maybe, but would you also hold him as a definitive favorite vs Jaedong, Flash and Jangbi as well? He's not even close to being such a bad ass scary monster to me, so he ain't no bonjwa to me! vs leta and jangbi ? definitely. VS jaedong and flash, it's 50/50 on the paper. Anyway i agree with the 1st paragraph. Bisu is no bonjwa. | ||
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omninmo
2349 Posts
all former bonjwas are hasbeens. bisu is only 19 and could dominate for a while yet. bonjwa is a limit, a ceiling, a word. what makes a dominant player is their knowledge of the current metagame and their application of it to their strategies. Bisu's mind games and psycholigcal control is what makes him the champion he is today. Bisu doesnt have any better mechanics that best, jangbi, stork, or call but he mindballs them in every bo3/5 with his cool and calculated response style. + Show Spoiler + **spolier** results of gom classic season2 follow: Bisu put a palm to jangbi's forehead of futile aggression in the recent GOM final bisu showed why he is the taiji toss. "the greatest good is like water" gm1: bisu gets double mannerpyloned and loses a few probes to Jangbi initial zealot harass...then he drops a nexus on like 18 supply ftw! gm2: bisu fails to block his ramp and watches helplessly as dts ravage his probe line. championships are bo5 so that both players get to make 1 noob mistake. ..just one. gm3: macro armistace until mid game when jangbi's super aggressve 2-3 speed shuttle harass cripples bisu's hope at a late game. while watching speed shuttles fly around killing probes bisu macros hard of 3 bases and floods jangbi's natural into main ftw. gm4: Jangbi's ill-timed 4gate goon invasion of Col2 in game three was masterfully deflected. when Bisu set up his outnumbered goon wall just in time to take three steps back, lure jangbi into the narrow choke and then rain pain from the highground supported concave. also notice in that replay how the drones came in at just at the exact time after jangbi focus fired the bisugoons. this way the probes survived and dealt massive damage while the bisugoons actually absorbed damage for the killer probes. had jangbi realized his poor position, microfired the probes in retreat, met up with reinforcements and attacked as one then there might have been a different outcome. gm5...oops over. bisu wins gom classic season2 I have some nicknames for Bisu: + Show Spoiler + BoobytrapToss, Cucumber Toss Hairpray Toss, Taiji Toss (kind of derived from brucelee toss.. but more appropriate for his current stlye which has become less aggressive. taiji is a daoist influenced chinese gongfu based on the principle that all excellence is like water. it seeks to absorb the enemies advances with as little resistance as possible before striking the opponent in their most vulnerable stance. ) | ||
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sh02hp0869
Sweden460 Posts
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EsX_Raptor
United States2801 Posts
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Zinbiel
Sweden878 Posts
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
Next like some people have already brought up it's not about how many OSL/MSL you win - that's just the result of bonjwa status. Savior was being called Bonjwa before he won his OSL even though he lost 2 MSL finals out of 5 - why? Because he was invincible. Even his losses seemed more like him fucking up/bad luck/etc rather than being outplayed. The candidate is just so dominant that those Starleague are gotten long after he has earned his title. Lastly, don't think that Flash/Jaedong/Leta and the like are the reason Bisu can't be a Bonjwa - that's just ludicrous. As if back then there weren't a shitload of good players. You forget that not only did the previous Bonjwas all exist in the same frame (except Savior and Boxer) but there were TONS of good gamers and specialists out there. This is an important point that some of you keep ignoring - it's about DOMINANCE no matter what. Boxer did it through his amazing creativity, Nada with his ingenious unit control and playmaking ability, Oov started the macro trend and is still possibly the greatest player ever in this regard along with his uncheesiness, and Savior with his game management always getting away with the exact number of units needed to defend before the rape began. Bisu? He's almost there. He is the undisputed king of multitasking. That could be his "thing". However, until he learns to dominate with it he won't be called bonjwa. | ||
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Ichigo1234551
United States649 Posts
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Eg!
Belgium49 Posts
On February 10 2009 00:56 Lukeeze[zR] wrote: vs leta and jangbi ? definitely. VS jaedong and flash, it's 50/50 on the paper. Anyway i agree with the 1st paragraph. Bisu is no bonjwa. Yea, I also think Flash and Jaedong wound be 50/50. Leta I'm not sure, but i feel the current Leta-hype might have something going for it.. I also agree Bisu would be favourite vs Jangbi, but I wouldn't consider Jangbi a total pushover either (would be ∼70/30) - as he should be if Bisu was bonjwa  Maybe this is a good definition of bonjwa: Scary gosu beast who is considered 85/15 vs any opponent. (85 % chance of winning, english isn't my native language!) | ||
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KnightOfNi
United States1508 Posts
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d(O.o)a
Canada5066 Posts
On February 10 2009 00:18 fusionsdf wrote: yep hwasin, nada, iloveoov, midas, yarnc, casy, firebathero, sea, light, GGplay, anytime = ALL NOOBS People who were past their prime for the most part along with a lot of poor players is what I should have said, and look what happened when Savior played firebathero... I think you would know. Now look at what happens when most of these players play people in these days? In games after 2008: Iloveoov 4-4 3 wins coming from players on ace so essentially 1-4 Hwasin is admittedly still playing well. Nada I was not referring to as he was second on Kespa midas 25-29 However he is 2-8 in his last 10 yarnc is still playing quite well Casy 8-12 which is quite impressive considering he plays for Ace but 3-7 in his last 10 Kingdom hasn't played a single game in 2008 but he's coaching SKT protosses and one of them is a candidate for the next bonjwa so.... Nal_ra is 4-5 in 2008 which is not terrible but 3 of his wins are over Daezang Oversky and Punsoo. Firebathero Sea light and GGplay and anytime I won't talk about because honestly they're not doing bad at all, I never once said all these people were noobs simply that the majority of players in these times were not exactly the greatest and that there are so many more great players in these days. Look at the top 30 Kespa it's ridiculous but as I said my point was not that they are all TERRIBLE just that the competition was not as fierce as it is these days. | ||
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d(O.o)a
Canada5066 Posts
On February 10 2009 00:46 Eg! wrote: I agree with Idra. Bonjwa is not about statistics or winning certain leagues and turnaments. A bonjwa is someone who dominates so hard that he's the definitive favorite no matter who he's up against. Would you hold Bisu as a definitive favorite vs Leta? Well maybe, but would you also hold him as a definitive favorite vs Jaedong, Flash and Jangbi as well? He's not even close to being such a bad ass scary monster to me, so he ain't no bonjwa to me! Well, keep in mind he just beat jangbi 3-1 and is 6-3 against jangbi in his entire career. | ||
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Tekin
2711 Posts
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Nylan
United States795 Posts
On February 11 2009 01:27 d(O.o)a wrote: People who were past their prime for the most part along with a lot of poor players is what I should have said, and look what happened when Savior played firebathero... I think you would know. Now look at what happens when most of these players play people in these days? In games after 2008: Iloveoov 4-4 3 wins coming from players on ace so essentially 1-4 Hwasin is admittedly still playing well. Nada I was not referring to as he was second on Kespa midas 25-29 However he is 2-8 in his last 10 yarnc is still playing quite well Casy 8-12 which is quite impressive considering he plays for Ace but 3-7 in his last 10 Kingdom hasn't played a single game in 2008 but he's coaching SKT protosses and one of them is a candidate for the next bonjwa so.... Nal_ra is 4-5 in 2008 which is not terrible but 3 of his wins are over Daezang Oversky and Punsoo. Firebathero Sea light and GGplay and anytime I won't talk about because honestly they're not doing bad at all, I never once said all these people were noobs simply that the majority of players in these times were not exactly the greatest and that there are so many more great players in these days. Look at the top 30 Kespa it's ridiculous but as I said my point was not that they are all TERRIBLE just that the competition was not as fierce as it is these days. Translation: You're wrong! My theory still stands, with a few exceptions...okay, everything you brought up. But still, I'm right!! Really! | ||
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
On February 11 2009 01:27 d(O.o)a wrote: People who were past their prime for the most part along with a lot of poor players is what I should have said, and look what happened when Savior played firebathero... I think you would know. Now look at what happens when most of these players play people in these days? In games after 2008: Iloveoov 4-4 3 wins coming from players on ace so essentially 1-4 Hwasin is admittedly still playing well. Nada I was not referring to as he was second on Kespa midas 25-29 However he is 2-8 in his last 10 yarnc is still playing quite well Casy 8-12 which is quite impressive considering he plays for Ace but 3-7 in his last 10 Kingdom hasn't played a single game in 2008 but he's coaching SKT protosses and one of them is a candidate for the next bonjwa so.... Nal_ra is 4-5 in 2008 which is not terrible but 3 of his wins are over Daezang Oversky and Punsoo. Firebathero Sea light and GGplay and anytime I won't talk about because honestly they're not doing bad at all, I never once said all these people were noobs simply that the majority of players in these times were not exactly the greatest and that there are so many more great players in these days. Look at the top 30 Kespa it's ridiculous but as I said my point was not that they are all TERRIBLE just that the competition was not as fierce as it is these days. ahahahaha you're ridiculous hwasin, nada, iloveoov, midas, yarnc, casy, firebathero, sea, light, GGplay, anytime = ALL hwasin, midas, casy, yarnc, sea, light were all in their prime nal_ra, reach, anytime, iloveoov were still very strong nada won the OSL (and masters) shortly after savior absolutely ridiculous. You're using 2008 stats (and badly badly warping them lol) to prove that these guys were worthless in 2006/7? wow | ||
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d(O.o)a
Canada5066 Posts
On February 11 2009 01:38 Nylan wrote: Translation: You're wrong! My theory still stands, with a few exceptions...okay, everything you brought up. But still, I'm right!! Really! How is Nal_ra going 1-5 against non ace/brand new players an exception or Oov going 1-4 against non-ace players. What about midas who is 2-8 in his last 10 or Casy 3-7 in his last 10. I'm not trying to say that I'm right and everybody is wrong which you would have known if you had read the entire post. What I was trying to say is that the competition nowadays is just so much strong I mean look at people like Flash Leta Jangbi Stork Jaedong Forgg (Okay not in TvP) Best Fantasy Mind Free and many others, how can you be a bonjwa with this much competition from AMAZING players. | ||
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
Totally flawed. That's like saying Savior wasn't bonjwa 2/3 years ago because he sucked shit last year. | ||
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d(O.o)a
Canada5066 Posts
On February 11 2009 01:46 fusionsdf wrote: ahahahaha you're ridiculous hwasin, nada, iloveoov, midas, yarnc, casy, firebathero, sea, light, GGplay, anytime = ALL hwasin, midas, casy, yarnc, sea, light were all in their prime nal_ra, reach, anytime, iloveoov were still very strong nada won the OSL (and masters) shortly after savior absolutely ridiculous. You're using 2008 stats (and badly badly warping them lol) to prove that these guys were worthless in 2006/7? wow No I'm not talking about 2006/7 at all I'm saying that they're not doing as well with today's competition. MY POST HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH 2006 OR 2007 I WAS TRYING TO SAY THAT IN 2008/2009 THE COMPETITION IS MORE STRONG THAN IT USED TO BE AND THEREFOR THESE PLAYERS AREN'T ALL ABLE TO KEEP UP. | ||
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
Best is Bonjwa. Show me a zerg he can't slay. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
sup. | ||
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d(O.o)a
Canada5066 Posts
On February 11 2009 01:47 fusionsdf wrote: no wonder people hate bisu fans I am not a Bisu fan. In fact I don't even like Bisu the reason my icon is SKT has nothing to do with Bisu. My top 10 favorite players are as follows: -Savior -Iloveoov -July -Kingdom -Flash -BeSt -Jaedong -ForGG -Canata -Luxury But I have to go as I'm late for a class because I lost track of time >_<. | ||
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Warrior Madness
Canada3791 Posts
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Breavman
Sweden598 Posts
On February 11 2009 01:49 d(O.o)a wrote: No I'm not talking about 2006/7 at all I'm saying that they're not doing as well with today's competition. MY POST HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH 2006 OR 2007 I WAS TRYING TO SAY THAT IN 2008/2009 THE COMPETITION IS MORE STRONG THAN IT USED TO BE AND THEREFOR THESE PLAYERS AREN'T ALL ABLE TO KEEP UP. Still, 2008 stats don't say much about their 2006 skill since many of the players you listed had started to slack off and gone downhill by then. Only a few players can stay close to their top level for more than a couple of years, and you bring up stats when they are half retired? | ||
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1a2a3aGG
United States225 Posts
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36372 Posts
On February 11 2009 01:49 d(O.o)a wrote: No I'm not talking about 2006/7 at all I'm saying that they're not doing as well with today's competition. MY POST HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH 2006 OR 2007 I WAS TRYING TO SAY THAT IN 2008/2009 THE COMPETITION IS MORE STRONG THAN IT USED TO BE AND THEREFOR THESE PLAYERS AREN'T ALL ABLE TO KEEP UP. First, don't use all caps. Second, obviously Nal_ra and Casy and Midas suck recently, they are old, over the hill, almost-retired progamers who are past their prime. Using recent statistics for these guys as proof of it being "easier" for Savior back then is completely misguided. That's like me citing 2008 Savior stats (the horrible ones) and saying wow Bisu had no competition when he played Savior in 2007, that year was so weak if someone as bad as Savior (using his 2008 stats as proof) could win so many MSLs. Or oh hey fOrGG is 3-5 in 2009, Jaedong must've really sucked in 2008 to lose an MSL to him. 2008 is just so much easier than 2009, look at fOrGG! Do you see why using this line of logic is stupid? | ||
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lololol
5198 Posts
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Deleted User 31060
3788 Posts
On February 11 2009 02:04 Hot_Bid wrote: First, don't use all caps. Second, obviously Nal_ra and Casy and Midas suck recently, they are old, over the hill, almost-retired progamers who are past their prime. Using recent statistics for these guys as proof of it being "easier" for Savior back then is completely misguided. That's like me citing 2008 Savior stats (the horrible ones) and saying wow Bisu had no competition when he played Savior in 2007, that year was so weak if someone as bad as Savior (using his 2008 stats as proof) could win so many MSLs. Or oh hey fOrGG is 3-5 in 2009, Jaedong must've really sucked in 2008 to lose an MSL to him. 2008 is just so much easier than 2009, look at fOrGG! Do you see why using this line of logic is stupid? Flash really sucked in 2008 too! | ||
Carnac
Germany / USA16648 Posts
As for whether Bisu (or anyone for that matter) can be considered a bonjwa: you have to look far beyond a list of titles. I,E. Savior wasnt bonjwa because he won 3 MSLs, but because of the sheer dominance he displayed in his gameplay and mentality. I havent yet seen this from Bisu, not in a similar fashion and a comparable amount of time anyway. | ||
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Love.Zelduck
United States170 Posts
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KwarK
United States42021 Posts
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d(O.o)a
Canada5066 Posts
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Sosha
United States749 Posts
i'm not sure about all this bonjwa talk.. but seriously. Definate props go to Bisu[Shield]the 1st Protoss player to gain such major acheivements. 1st Protoss to win 3 MSL titles ( even though he's won other tournaments to date ) 1st Protoss to surpass ELO rating of 2300 Probably the single-most player responsible for reinventing Protoss vs. Zerg matchups as well as bringing about the "golden age of Protoss" and paving the way for the Six-Dragons, leading the way in terms of strategy, form and inspiration for tons of Protoss users. the mans a pimp of the game. All Hail Bisu[Shield], God of Protoss! | ||
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onihunter
United States515 Posts
Bisu just isn't on that level right now. EDIT: Basically what Carnac said. | ||
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Zapdos_Smithh
Canada2620 Posts
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CursOr
United States6335 Posts
im a sAviOr fan for life. but lets give credit where its due. im hoping for him in osl this time around. gg bisu!! | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8551 Posts
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IzzyCraft
United States4487 Posts
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imperfect
Canada1652 Posts
On February 28 2009 15:04 Avidkeystamper wrote: Tomorrow will be the first obstacle. im so hyped ^^ i should be writing my last university application, and here i am on TL.. | ||
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deathgodtoss
Korea (North)189 Posts
On February 09 2009 01:32 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote: If you have to ask if he's bonjwa, he's not bonjwa. this pretty much summed it up during saviors reign, he wasn't questioned, he was the pinnacle of starcraft. you knew, in any bo5 against all but maybe like zergman or some z v z specialist, it was an autobet on savior no matter the maps. god, his osl run was so sick.... unbelievable. | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8551 Posts
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eazo
United States530 Posts
On February 09 2009 01:32 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote: If you have to ask if he's bonjwa, he's not bonjwa. This | ||
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konadora
Singapore66072 Posts
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monstar123
United States516 Posts
On February 28 2009 18:08 konadora wrote: He's good, but not Bonjwa. Doesn't give the feeling that 'Oh, Bisu's here. He's going to win 100%." LOL, It is giving the feeling that:" Oh, Bisu's here. He's going to win 100%" Look at his match list.He is losing 1 game of 10. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66072 Posts
On February 28 2009 18:10 monstar123 wrote: LOL, It is giving the feeling that:" Oh, Bisu's here. He's going to win 100%" Look at his match list.He is losing 1 game of 10. Then why were people (SPOILER FOR TODAY'S OZ VS SKT1) + Show Spoiler + saying things like 'omg bisu won't make it','i'm a bisu fan but hate to say it, i think jaedong might win' | ||
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writer22816
United States5775 Posts
On February 28 2009 18:15 konadora wrote: Then why were people (SPOILER FOR TODAY'S OZ VS SKT1) + Show Spoiler + saying things like 'omg bisu won't make it','i'm a bisu fan but hate to say it, i think jaedong might win' I agree, Bisu can't really be thought of as a Bonjwa until he can regularly take down beasts like Jaedong and Flash. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66072 Posts
On February 28 2009 18:19 writer22816 wrote: I agree, Bisu can't really be thought of as a Bonjwa until he can regularly take down beasts like Jaedong and Flash. Exactly, that's my point. Until he gives you the great confidence, regardless of who the opponent may be, that 'Nah, it's Bisu, he's gonna win for sure.', he's not Bonjwa. I felt that during Savior's prime. Now, not for Bisu. | ||
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koziol
Poland768 Posts
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monstar123
United States516 Posts
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Hypnosis
United States2061 Posts
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On March 01 2009 06:47 monstar123 wrote: PPL u should understand 1 thing. Even when Savior was a beast and bonjwa he also lost to mediocre players. He also lost too much PL games while he was fucking everyone in OSL,MSL. which makes sense because? Pl and OSL/MSL are just too different from 3 years ago. The only reason, as stated before Bisu isn't considered one is because he isn't dominant. Sure, Savior and the like lost to mediocre players in PL but they DOMINATED other top tier players or pulled out damn near certain death victories. In other words - they won when it counted. Savior vs Iris is possibly one of the greatest ZvT series of all time and when you watch it you can't help but think Savior was THE top dog. Iris gave him HELL and he still won. | ||
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3 Lions
United States3705 Posts
Jaedong or Flash will get there first. | ||
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Hyperionnn
Turkey4968 Posts
On March 01 2009 06:59 3 Lions wrote: No sure if anyone said this already, but... Jaedong or Flash will get there first. Flash is not good vs big names (Best,Leta,Bisu for recent examples) but yeah he rapes lesser players like nothing Jaedong, well he is the best or 2nd player in the world right now, he can make it. | ||
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Kyuukyuu
Canada6263 Posts
On February 28 2009 18:10 monstar123 wrote: LOL, It is giving the feeling that:" Oh, Bisu's here. He's going to win 100%" Look at his match list.He is losing 1 game of 10. Yeah, good point, by citing sources that show he isn't 100% you argue that he is 100% :O Not to mention because of WL he is playing a lot of lesser players who have no chance against him. I'm not saying he isn't good or can't be Bonjwa, just kind of mentioning the contradictory points in that post | ||
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Cobalt
United States441 Posts
I think I remember reading that many people recognize that in terms of raw skill, Bisu is better than at least some of the bonjwas. Why then can he not receive the same title? It's because being a bonjwa has nothing to do with skill, but rather in how dominant a player is. I'm sure almost everyone recognizes this. The problem is that Boxer, Oov, Nada, and Savior all have the most prestigious title in Starcraft, when Bisu, a player on at least their level (and likely higher), doesn't. Bisu deserves some recognition for having this incredible amount of skill, but he can't be given the title "bonjwa" because of players like Flash and Jaedong, with comparable levels of skill. It seems unfair that he can't have this title simply because there are others who are as good as the previous bonjwas as well. If what I'm saying is correct, then that's the main issue with Bisu. Based solely on titles, people would assume that the bonjwas are better than Bisu, when in reality, he may be the best player in Starcraft history (according to some). | ||
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Rostam
United States2552 Posts
On March 01 2009 07:03 Hyperionnn wrote: Flash is not good vs big names (Best,Leta,Bisu for recent examples) but yeah he rapes lesser players like nothing Jaedong, well he is the best or 2nd player in the world right now, he can make it. Err, what? He loses a few games and suddenly he's "not good vs big names"? That's just silly. | ||
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Hyperionnn
Turkey4968 Posts
On March 01 2009 07:29 Rostam wrote: Err, what? He loses a few games and suddenly he's "not good vs big names"? That's just silly. He's 3-9 recently against Bisu,Stork,Jaedong,Leta,Best and these are the big names of vT matchup | ||
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Rostam
United States2552 Posts
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Hyperionnn
Turkey4968 Posts
On March 01 2009 07:38 Rostam wrote: He has two recent wins over Jaedong, two over Hwasin, one over Leta, Notice, ForGG, and Kal (on Medusa). He also beat FBH although nobody seems to have any trouble doing that lately. He still has a winning record over Bisu despite a couple of losses recently. You can't just single out his losses and act like that proves he's incapable of beating big name players. Notice, hwasin, forgg, kal and fbh (Hi i'm slumping) for big names? Maybe kal could be a big man but others are just joke compared to TOP players I dont give a fuck about stats 1 year ago, he's 1-3 against bisu lately | ||
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Rostam
United States2552 Posts
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niteReloaded
Croatia5281 Posts
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Zalfor
United States1035 Posts
super good, but not bonwja status to be a bonwja, u need to revolutionize the way starcraft is played. | ||
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Jyvblamo
Canada13788 Posts
On March 01 2009 08:17 Zalfor wrote: bisu is like july super good, but not bonwja status to be a bonwja, u need to revolutionize the way starcraft is played. Yup, the Revolutionist sure didn't revolutionize anything. | ||
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
but hes not dominant enough, so not bonjwa | ||
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imperfect
Canada1652 Posts
On March 01 2009 08:21 Jyvblamo wrote: Yup, the Revolutionist sure didn't revolutionize anything. lol. | ||
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Lukeeze[zR]
Switzerland6838 Posts
On March 01 2009 08:21 Jyvblamo wrote: Yup, the Revolutionist sure didn't revolutionize anything. BIIIING | ||
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Piy
Scotland3152 Posts
Pretty sure Flash is still the best player in terms of technical skill. Don't care about results, just look at his play. It speaks for itself when compared to Leta or Bisu's. Same with Jaedong. Not gonna be a Bonjwa for a while yet... | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
The standardization of the forge fe and the elevated importance of corsairs in PvZ made by Bisu was just as important as the standardization of the 3hatchmuta in ZvT that Savior made. | ||
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mikeymoo
Canada7170 Posts
When Savior used to play, it was "Savior's gonna win obviously". So not Bonjwa yet. | ||
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disciple
9070 Posts
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Centric
United States1989 Posts
On March 01 2009 08:43 disciple wrote: the FE sair/dt build is originally "invented" by DaezanG. Bisu just used it far more efficiently Yeah, Bisu added his own emphasis on scouting and perfect reaction to what the Z was doing. HB wrote a really good TLFE about it here. | ||
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EpiK
Korea (South)5757 Posts
On March 01 2009 08:41 mikeymoo wrote: When I see that Bisu is going to play a game, I say "I hope Bisu wins". When Savior used to play, it was "Savior's gonna win obviously". So not Bonjwa yet. this. The fact that this thread exists is proof that he's not bonjwa yet.. If he beats JD 3-0 tonight on the other hand I'd say he would be bit closer. | ||
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On March 01 2009 08:29 Piy wrote: "Pretty sure Flash is still the best player in terms of technical skill. Don't care about results, just look at his play. It speaks for itself when compared to Leta or Bisu's. Same with Jaedong." If we take the technical skill JangBi is #1 world before maGma because they're both fucking beasts when they play in practice. Too bad being really good is also about being a champ and way lessa bout who is "best in technical skill." Be sure, Best is technically 3x better than July and we all know what happened in that OSL. Mindset + superior technique playing together make a player really gosu. Also I do agree to Flash is incredible to watch but you must be a stupid hater if you say Bisu isn't playing just as incredible... hello? Bisu has probably the best multitasking in this world, even tho Jangbi might "seem" faster - Bisu is just a fucking god at being everywhere tearing your shit apart. Also u cannot really compare Bisu and Flash because Bisu's play is aggressive and depending on harass very much. Bisu is a shadow that will hit you when you expect it the least. Now look at how Flash is playing he's passively building up an macro advantage until he is able to roll everybody because u will not find any hole in his play to delay his push. Flash is Art of Defense. Example to point it out: Would you really compare Maldini with Ronaldo and conclude Maldini is a lot better because he prevented more goals than Ronald shot? | ||
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Shuffleus
Australia764 Posts
On March 01 2009 08:29 Piy wrote: I dont think Bisu is significantly better than anyone else right now, it's just that the maps are good for Toss right now, what with Desti and Medusa. The fact that Flash is able to hang with Bisu on those maps is incredible by itself. Pretty sure Flash is still the best player in terms of technical skill. Don't care about results, just look at his play. It speaks for itself when compared to Leta or Bisu's. Same with Jaedong. Not gonna be a Bonjwa for a while yet... Your first statement i have to disagree with. Bisu is amazing, when i watch him play i literally quote lord of the rings and say to myself. "What can men do against such reckless play" His play always catches my attention and it is noticeable that against lesser players he just COMPLETELY dismantles them. And this is not coming from a bisu fanboy. Hell, i don't even particularly like bisu. However i do believe he is the best toss in the world and right now i'd have to say he is very capable of smacking down Jaedong 3-0 today. But I do not believe Bisu is even close to Bonjwa Status. Where is his reign? i do not live in fear of my favorite players (ie. Light[aLive], oov) coming up against Bisu, he just hasn't achieved that 'aura' a bonjwa of the game has. Do you know who i do fear though? FlaSh. I fear any man who can have so little time to practice (comparatively) and still NEARLY all-kill every time he gets up into that booth. You say flash doesn't do so well verses the big names. Recently, i can very well see how you get that impression but i'm not looking back at the MSL and OSL knockouts, i'll agree that he lost fair and square (although to bitch about the lack of practice time again is so tempting). I'm looking back at the past year of dominance that has been made and owned in the state of Lee young ho. (I'm not saying Jaedong hasn't been tearing it up for the past year i just think flash has been doing it more) Bisu is not a Bonjwa yet. Skill wise, he does not have far to go. But he needs 12 months of dominance, 12 months of complete and utter rape and a 27-0 TvZ streak. N.B Yes. I am biased towards Flash. I don't believe any man could watch him play and not be against proposition 8 from that point onwards. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
With Savior, he was the only Zerg surviving through Terran favored maps. It's things like that that make people say "oh my god wtf!". Put Bisu on T and Z favored maps and yes he will possibly win but it won't be those EPIC games like Savior had where you just shake your head and go what must a Terran do to win on this map vs Savior? Also yes, Bisu has more skill than past Bonjwas but that's relative to the generation. Oov/Boxer/Nada all had insane "skill" above their peers just as little as Bisu does against Jaedong and Flash...which isn't much. It's not like those guys had it easy back then either. | ||
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disciple
9070 Posts
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
So he has clearly less time to practice obviously. | ||
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traced
1739 Posts
BONWJA | ||
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antiq
Slovakia191 Posts
edit:: rofl. Yeah, we could devise an automatic bonjwa system I'm thinking along the lines, if he has the highest elo and the second best player's elo is less than 90% of his elo, then he's bonjwa... | ||
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eshlow
United States5210 Posts
Pic below... in case it's changed back. :p + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/2017/bonjwa.jpg) | ||
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
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Yaqoob
Canada3318 Posts
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]343[
United States10328 Posts
man what happened to GUEMCHI | ||
p4NDemik
United States13896 Posts
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Lukeeze[zR]
Switzerland6838 Posts
bisu is art i'd take art anyday | ||
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Malongo
Chile3471 Posts
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ZidaneTribal
United States2800 Posts
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Avidkeystamper
United States8551 Posts
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SilverSkyLark
Philippines8437 Posts
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whatusername
Canada1181 Posts
On March 01 2009 09:40 malongo wrote: Plus Protoss is highly susceptible to map imbalance issues (unlike T and Z) wich means 1 map can stop him easily in each starleague (unlike the other bonjwas). what explain | ||
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triangle
United States3803 Posts
If he stays #1 for another 5 months, then I'll take it seriously. Until then, no. | ||
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Bosu
United States3247 Posts
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Hyperionnn
Turkey4968 Posts
On March 01 2009 07:56 Rostam wrote: Notice has the best WL record of any player on STX and beat Mind and Leta in TvT. Hwasin was coming off a 2-0 record in the group of death and OSL wins over Mind and Best when he lost to Flash. ForGG has very good TvT. You're taking a small sample of games (a couple from 2-3 months ago and two days worth of losses to Leta and Best) to make a generalization about his play. He's proven he can beat those big names (well, besides Best) in the past, there's obviously no mental block preventing him from doing so again. He'll bounce back. Sorry for late answer, i fell asleep Notice - He's nobody for me until he qualifies to a SL, even hes record in pl could be 30-1 or something like that Hwasin - Insurance terran, meh Forgg - His worst matchup is TvT for gods sake My time span is usually 2-3 months not 2 years, the games which played 2 years ago does not show anything for a players level, and there's a truth, he's shaky vs S/S- (does it make sense) class players. On March 01 2009 08:17 Zalfor wrote: bisu is like july super good, but not bonwja status to be a bonwja, u need to revolutionize the way starcraft is played. I hope that you are sarcastic | ||
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36372 Posts
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GinNtoniC
Sweden2945 Posts
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darktreb
United States3016 Posts
On March 01 2009 20:28 Hot_Bid wrote: i think tonight's match puts this question to rest yes? Ahahahaha ... just absolutely shocking. | ||
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Rpeg
United States6 Posts
"Best team of all time? They aren't even the best team THIS YEAR." | ||
GTR
51342 Posts
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CursOr
United States6335 Posts
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KwarK
United States42021 Posts
sAviOr lost the special event bo5 to NaDa and then went on to defeat him and finally claim his OSL title. We'll see. | ||
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KOFgokuon
United States14892 Posts
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fanatacist
10319 Posts
On March 01 2009 20:48 Kwark wrote: Epic sAviOr/NaDa rivalry saw a showmatch between them followed quickly by a starleague final. sAviOr lost the special event bo5 to NaDa and then went on to defeat him and finally claim his OSL title. We'll see. QFT. | ||
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CursOr
United States6335 Posts
i have faith in bisu, not like i do in savior, but i do. | ||
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Samurai-
Slovenia2035 Posts
On March 01 2009 20:28 Hot_Bid wrote: i think tonight's match puts this question to rest yes? Hope so | ||
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VioleTAK
Israel4279 Posts
The other way around. sAviOr won the OSL, then NaDa won the Shinhan masters Bo5. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5454 Posts
On March 01 2009 20:48 Kwark wrote: Epic sAviOr/NaDa rivalry saw a showmatch between them followed quickly by a starleague final. sAviOr lost the special event bo5 to NaDa and then went on to defeat him and finally claim his OSL title. We'll see. IIRC it was the other way round. Savior > Nada OSL, Nada > Savior Shinhan Masters. Not sure though. edit: sigh Violetak beat me to it. | ||
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NrG.Vincent
Italy19 Posts
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hazz
United Kingdom570 Posts
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fanatacist
10319 Posts
On March 01 2009 20:55 VioleTAK wrote: The other way around. sAviOr won the OSL, then NaDa won the Shinhan masters Bo5. Still QFT. | ||
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fanatacist
10319 Posts
On March 01 2009 20:56 NrG.Vincent wrote: JANGBI THE NEXT BONJWA... NO WAY FOR BISU Nice first post brah. | ||
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
After his recent mistake he can still make it... but he badly needs to win an OSL. | ||
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JohnColtrane
Australia4813 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + the series had utter rapes from bisu and jaedong, and i think to be raped a couple of times that hard in a bo5 is a sign that you arent dominant. im not saying bisu isnt great, hes fantastic, and the same is true for jaedong. even after his win, i wouldnt consider him a bonjwa either. they are just too close right now for one player to be head and shoulders better just my 2cents | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia12802 Posts
And I don't even really like Bisu much so I say this objectively! | ||
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Hyperionnn
Turkey4968 Posts
On March 01 2009 20:56 NrG.Vincent wrote: JANGBI THE NEXT BONJWA... NO WAY FOR BISU Best 1st post ever | ||
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Sixer
United States278 Posts
That, and because he's a Protoss. | ||
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ExSoldier
378 Posts
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
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DeathSpank
United States1029 Posts
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Jyvblamo
Canada13788 Posts
On March 02 2009 04:50 DeathSpank wrote: bonjwa's know how to keep their zelots on hold position. Boxer, Nada, Oov, and Savior never used Zealots. =P | ||
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SteelString
446 Posts
On March 02 2009 05:32 Jyvblamo wrote: Boxer, Nada, Oov, and Savior never used Zealots. =P but I guarantee you that they all know how to make them hold position | ||
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BanZu
United States3329 Posts
On March 02 2009 05:37 SteelString wrote: but I guarantee you that they all know how to make them hold position Knowing and remembering to do it are different | ||
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kazokun
United States163 Posts
On March 02 2009 05:37 BanZu wrote: Knowing and remembering to do it are different Ok, bonjwas remember to keep their zealots in hold position. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7814 Posts
On March 02 2009 05:37 BanZu wrote: Knowing and remembering to do it are different Well, as long as you haven't seen him doing it, you can't be sure that he really know how to do it. [/Troll] | ||
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piskooooo
United States351 Posts
On March 02 2009 04:50 DeathSpank wrote: bonjwa's know how to keep their zelots on hold position. And they don't rate their opponents macro at 5, only to get out macro'd. | ||
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Jyvblamo
Canada13788 Posts
On March 02 2009 05:53 piskooooo wrote: And they don't rate their opponents macro at 5, only to get out macro'd. I fail to see in which game Bisu got out-macro'd... | ||
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iloveHieu
United States1919 Posts
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niteReloaded
Croatia5281 Posts
On March 02 2009 06:02 iloveHieu wrote: wow Boxer and Nada long ass time on top of the word, such absolute domination.. the rest have nothing on them. I wonder who's dominated the longest if you disregard the actual time, and focus only on the amount of games. Coz time means nothing if you don't play games. | ||
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Durak
Canada3684 Posts
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Guss
Sweden712 Posts
On March 02 2009 06:45 Durak wrote: How about we start talking about how Jaedong is going to be the next Bonjwa instead. It's pretty clear after beating the fake protoss Bonjwa he's going to be back better than ever. Subjectivity anyone? Yeah jaedong has won as many titles as bisu, been as dominant for as long and is clearly better..... OH WAIT? | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8551 Posts
On March 02 2009 06:54 Guss wrote: Yeah jaedong has won as many titles as bisu, been as dominant for as long and is clearly better..... OH WAIT? Maybe not as many SL titles (he has three compared to four), but he does have more gold medals and silver medals than Bisu does. And I'm pretty sure the original post was sarcasm. -.- | ||
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
On March 02 2009 06:54 Guss wrote: Yeah jaedong has won as many titles as bisu, been as dominant for as long and is clearly better..... OH WAIT? All-time winning percentage: Jaedong: 66.78% Bisu: 63.19% Months number1 at Kespa: Bisu: 5 (2 in a row) Jaedong: 4 (4 in a row) It really is nonsense to suggest Bisu is a Bonjwa. He's undoubtedly one of the greatest players of all time, but that's all. | ||
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Jayme
United States5866 Posts
On March 02 2009 06:54 Guss wrote: Yeah jaedong has won as many titles as bisu, been as dominant for as long and is clearly better..... OH WAIT? Your fanboyism has blinded you to other players stats, like Flash and Jaedong... which are quite frankly just as good if not better. | ||
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DamageControL
United States4222 Posts
On March 02 2009 05:37 SteelString wrote: but I guarantee you that they all know how to make them hold position I guaruntee that July knows how to click adrenal glands but he's not Bonjwa | ||
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Durak
Canada3684 Posts
On March 02 2009 07:04 Klive5ive wrote: ...It really is nonsense to suggest Bisu is a Bonjwa. He's undoubtedly one of the greatest players of all time, but that's all. That's the crux of my post. You can't simply call a player who's playing well a Bonjwa. If you did, the title would be "current best player" instead. The "ridiculousness" that you think about calling Jaedong a Bonjwa demonstrates my point. There has been little, if any, discussion about him being a Bonjwa even though he has very similar accomplishments. In fact, he just beat Bisu in a straight up Bo5. In my opinion, Bonjwa is a title given to a player that has a long enough period of dominance to prove that he is better than all the other players. It is not simply given to a player who is just playing well. As many have said, "You don't need to ask if he's a Bonjwa." This is accepted as true because everyone will agree once a player is a Bonjwa, not just fanboys of his race. | ||
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LuckyFool
United States9015 Posts
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ChoboOv
Canada126 Posts
This match was not going to decide if he was bonjwa or not, one match never does. A bonjwa must prove himself over an extended period of time not over one game. Now this loss does not help him in his quest to become bonjwa as he made a couple of blaring mistakes. IMHO it is really ignorant to take mistakes from ONE game and use that as proof that he isn't bonjwa material. Every pro gamer losses, no one has a 100% winning percentage. Hopefully he will be able to take the mistakes he made from this loss and improve on them. I hope to see a OSL final rematch as that last game had soo much build up to it and it ended in such a "weak" fashion. | ||
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wwooaa
Croatia179 Posts
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Guss
Sweden712 Posts
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QuoC
United States724 Posts
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Cambium
United States16368 Posts
No wonder this discussion is going nowhere... | ||
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Atrioc
United States1865 Posts
On March 03 2009 10:31 Cambium wrote: sixteen pages in, still not a concrete definition of "bonjwa" No wonder this discussion is going nowhere... the discussion is going nowhere because its a stupid discussion bisu is not a bonjwa by any definition other than "highest rated player right now" (which is not an accepted definition) he doenst have an osl title, a commanding lead in ELO or Kespa points, a winning record vs his rivals, a better winner's league/proleague performance than his rivals, a long stretch at kespa #1, and most importantly + Show Spoiler + he just lost to the #2 in a best of 5, despite promising to win the series if he won the first game. bonjwas dont do that | ||
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disciple
9070 Posts
On March 03 2009 10:44 Atrioc wrote: the discussion is going nowhere because its a stupid discussion bisu is not a bonjwa by any definition other than "highest rated player right now" (which is not an accepted definition) he doenst have an osl title, a commanding lead in ELO or Kespa points, a winning record vs his rivals, a better winner's league/proleague performance than his rivals, a long stretch at kespa #1, and most importantly + Show Spoiler + he just lost to the #2 in a best of 5, despite promising to win the series if he won the first game. bonjwas dont do that and just when the winning record against the rivals became a bonjwa factor, statistically all the previous kings were getting owned by someone in particular , boxer- garimto, oov- july, savior-bisu. By pure winning percentage Bisu is performing not worse than the so called bonjwas during their primes, but the thing is that KTY can not make a considerable gap between JD,Flash and himself. They are just playing so very good as well. For one to shine,another need to suck at the same time, you know... | ||
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Atrioc
United States1865 Posts
On March 03 2009 10:54 disciple wrote: and just when the winning record against the rivals became a bonjwa factor, statistically all the previous kings were getting owned by someone in particular , boxer- garimto, oov- july, savior-bisu. By pure winning percentage Bisu is performing not worse than the so called bonjwas during their primes, but the thing is that KTY can not make a considerable gap between JD,Flash and himself. They are just playing so very good as well. For one to shine,another need to suck at the same time, you know... Your examples are suspect since: #1 - Boxer has a winning record over Garimto, 6-3, and Garimto could hardly be considered a rival. #2 - Oov has a winning record over July, 13-12, and the only time he met up with July in a finals situation (with money on the line) he won 3-0 e-z. That is what a bonjwa does to their rivals. #3 - Bisu was never savior's rival. They didnt meet at all until Gom TV MSL S1 finals, and Bisu's victory simply ended sAviOr's reign. And lastly, saying that the other good players need to start sucking in order for Bisu to shine is the wrong way of looking at it. Bisu needs to play better. Right now he isnt dominant, just consistently good. | ||
Kyo Yuy
United States1286 Posts
And in fact, I would rather that he never become a bonjwa. For it seems that, when people become so impeccably dominant that they don't think they can lose, they gain (at least internally) a huge ego that causes them to be unable to accept defeat when someone finally stops their domination streak. As Bisu says, all the bonjwas of the past have ended up falling into a deep abyss and never attaining the same high caliber of skill that they were known for having. I'd rather Bisu be a really consistent player that just manages to keep winning as time passes, as opposed to a completely dominant, overpowering player that ends up falling into the abyss after THAT ONE PLAYER manages to completely topple him. Even if Jaedong is better than Bisu, I think only blind fanboys and hardcore anti fanboys can say that Jaedong is VASTLY SUPERIOR to Bisu. In my opinion, sometimes Jaedong plays better and sometimes Bisu plays better, similar to the Lee-Ssang rivalry between Jaedong and Flash. But why does it matter if Bisu is bonjwa or not? He's a good player who revolutionized the essence of PvZ. That's good enough for me. | ||
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Atrioc
United States1865 Posts
On March 03 2009 11:31 Kyo Yuy wrote: As a Bisu fan, I will say that Bisu is not a bonjwa. And in fact, I would rather that he never become a bonjwa. For it seems that, when people become so impeccably dominant that they don't think they can lose, they gain (at least internally) a huge ego that causes them to be unable to accept defeat when someone finally stops their domination streak. As Bisu says, all the bonjwas of the past have ended up falling into a deep abyss and never attaining the same high caliber of skill that they were known for having. I'd rather Bisu be a really consistent player that just manages to keep winning as time passes, as opposed to a completely dominant, overpowering player that ends up falling into the abyss after THAT ONE PLAYER manages to completely topple him. Even if Jaedong is better than Bisu, I think only blind fanboys and hardcore anti fanboys can say that Jaedong is VASTLY SUPERIOR to Bisu. In my opinion, sometimes Jaedong plays better and sometimes Bisu plays better, similar to the Lee-Ssang rivalry between Jaedong and Flash. But why does it matter if Bisu is bonjwa or not? He's a good player who revolutionized the essence of PvZ. That's good enough for me. this is a good post you are a good bisu fan and any jaedong fan that thinks he is vastly superior to bisu is dumb as hell after those games (+ their proleague games + that game they had on blue storm a year ago) bisu/jaedong/flash are all so fucking close it can go either way almost every time | ||
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Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
On March 03 2009 11:08 Atrioc wrote: #2 - Oov has a winning record over July, 13-12, and the only time he met up with July in a finals situation (with money on the line) he won 3-0 e-z. That is what a bonjwa does to their rivals. Oov lost 1-3 in the ITV finals. | ||
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Atrioc
United States1865 Posts
Sorry I didnt know that was for money. Still with iTV going out of business and all + Oov having a winning record overall vs July, I think the point still stands. Oov fought a tough opponent but he came out ahead overall. | ||
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Flamboyant
United States57 Posts
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Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
On March 03 2009 11:49 Atrioc wrote: Sorry I didnt know that was for money. Still with iTV going out of business and all + Oov having a winning record overall vs July, I think the point still stands. Oov fought a tough opponent but he came out ahead overall. eh, Oov's reign was over before he took the lead in the head to head and plus... xellos | ||
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MutaDoom
Canada1163 Posts
On March 03 2009 12:05 Mindcrime wrote: eh, Oov's reign was over before he took the lead in the head to head and plus... xellos That name brings only one thought... pain. Seo Ji Hoon was a fucking monster. | ||
Last Romantic
United States20661 Posts
A bonjwa is granted the title [insofar as the title is a bestowed honor] by popular acclaim and general consent. Since there is obviously no consent on Bisu being a bonjwa, he cannot therefore be one. It is only logical. | ||
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Guybrush
Spain4744 Posts
NaDa 3 OSLs Oov 2 OSLs Savior 1 OSL Bisu 0 OSL(?) Maybe Savior will be the last one of the 3-MSLers to win an OSL. Enjoy the Flash/Jaedong/Bisu rivalry as long as you can, because JD and Bisu will most likely slow down(not be the #1s of their race) in 2-3 years since they're already 19 years old. NaDa is the rare exception as he was the best Terran in during Shinhan2/3/masters back in 2006/2007 at the age of 23. | ||
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Atrioc
United States1865 Posts
On March 03 2009 12:37 Guybrush wrote: The Bonjwa pattern has holes as well NaDa 3 OSLs Oov 2 OSLs Savior 1 OSL Bisu 0 OSL(?) No, because its still only the 1st OSL that takes place during the "Bonjwa reign" NaDa has 3 OSL's, but two are from radically different time periods. To say the OSL he got over anytime in 2006 is from the same "bonjwa" period as the OSL he won over Chojja in 2003 is ludicrious. Same with Oov's 2nd OSL title, which only came after he was raped 5-0 by sAviOr in CYON (and by Xellos) and was clearly no longer the Monster/Bonjwa. For all we know sAviOr could win an OSL next season - but the 3msl1osl pattern wouldnt change. | ||
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
On March 03 2009 14:07 Atrioc wrote: No, because its still only the 1st OSL that takes place during the "Bonjwa reign" NaDa has 3 OSL's, but two are from radically different time periods. To say the OSL he got over anytime in 2006 is from the same "bonjwa" period as the OSL he won over Chojja in 2003 is ludicrious. Same with Oov's 2nd OSL title, which only came after he was raped 5-0 by sAviOr in CYON (and by Xellos) and was clearly no longer the Monster/Bonjwa. For all we know sAviOr could win an OSL next season - but the 3msl1osl pattern wouldnt change. which is kinda funny. If you want to say Bisu is bonjwa, either his bonjwa period was 2 years ago when he won the MSLs, or its now when he has a chance to win an OSL winning the two with a two year gap inbetween doesnt really count. | ||
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
On March 03 2009 10:31 Cambium wrote: sixteen pages in, still not a concrete definition of "bonjwa" No wonder this discussion is going nowhere... bonjwa (n): 1 sAviOr CJ Entus 2107 2 NaDa Pantech Ex 1662 3 Iris CJ Entus 1096.3 quite simply, bonjwa is being dominant. So dominant that only four players in the entire history of starcraft can lay claim to it despite all the big names. | ||
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TicTacToe
China21 Posts
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36372 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + LOL | ||
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p4NDemik
United States13896 Posts
as much as I wanted to see a Bisu/JD OSL final, it's nice that it appears that Bisu's bonjwa bid is done (imo at least). I think everyone can agree his last 6 months of play have been phenomenal, but he's still nowhere close to a bonjwa level of dominance. | ||
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fearus
China2164 Posts
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MoRe_mInErAls
Canada1210 Posts
These past 17 pages have been pointless. Close thread and never mention again! | ||
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
Bisu is just one of the three haxors. | ||
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rel
Guam3521 Posts
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]343[
United States10328 Posts
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SaRangHaE
United States182 Posts
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
Seriously, this is spoily + Show Spoiler + fantasy for new bonjwa? edit: he played so well, expanding, harassing, defending, everything was so perfect except that one moment where he forgot about his wraith; but the dropship/goliath interception was so sick it made up for that. It was like oov and Boxer were in his booth, telling him what to do. Actually it was like oov and Boxer were in Bisu's booth, telling fantasy what to do by walkie-talkie. Amazingly well played. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
Fantasy is much less of a bonjwa candidate than Bisu, really. That doesn't say much. | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
On March 21 2009 02:39 koreasilver wrote: Fantasy is much less of a bonjwa candidate than Bisu, really. That doesn't say much. Oh, I meant it as a joke. I think I may have made that less clear with my edit. | ||
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Cambium
United States16368 Posts
FANTASY FOR NEW BONJWAAAAA? ZOMG + Show Spoiler + Thank you Fantasy, for putting an end to this bullshit, at least for a while | ||
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Cambium
United States16368 Posts
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fanatacist
10319 Posts
OMGOMGOMG ITS DA END OF PEEPL TALKIN BOUT BISU BEING SOME ARBITRARY SLANG WORD LOL PRAISE THA LAWD | ||
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Amarxist
United States371 Posts
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Railz
United States1449 Posts
On March 21 2009 03:07 Amarxist wrote: Bisu 4 Bonjwa. B4B. B4B30Dby.Fantasy. OOPS. OOPS. BYOB(onjwa) | ||
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H
New Zealand6138 Posts
On March 21 2009 02:11 rel wrote: Nada is the only bonjwa to me, pure domination of the game statistically over many many years., I don't think he's the only bonjwa, but maybe the only true one. He'll always be my favourite one. | ||
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SuperArc
Austria7781 Posts
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SilverskY
Korea (South)3086 Posts
God, I hope this shuts people up for a LOOOOOONG while. -_-;; | ||
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FirstBorn
Romania3955 Posts
On March 21 2009 03:47 SilverskY wrote: + Show Spoiler + God, I hope this shuts people up for a LOOOOOONG while. -_-;; + Show Spoiler + On March 21 2009 00:51 fearus wrote: Bisu is BONJWA There goes the long time. | ||
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poor newb
United States1879 Posts
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Lucktar
United States526 Posts
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Lebesgue
4542 Posts
On March 21 2009 04:24 Lucktar wrote: Ahaha, i saw this thread on the sidebar, and didn't realize it was an old thread. I instantly though, 'damn it, Bisu won, now the fanboys will never shut up.' Hurray for being wrong :D Same here. I thought "you must be kidding me; one win and the Fantasy bandwagon already set off". But I am still shocked how easily Bisu went down last night. Shocking... | ||
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Samurai-
Slovenia2035 Posts
On March 21 2009 04:17 poor newb wrote: dont worry, fantasy will break his back and bisu osl champ lol | ||
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diehilde
Germany1596 Posts
On March 21 2009 03:06 fanatacist wrote: I hate people. Seriously. OMGOMGOMG ITS DA END OF PEEPL TALKIN BOUT BISU BEING SOME ARBITRARY SLANG WORD LOL PRAISE THA LAWD being considered "bonjwa" is not some arbitrary slang word, its about the most difficult and honorful to achieve nickname for a pro... only 4 people ever had it and nobody has had it since 2007. Its about the same as these "grandmaster" titles in chess or smth, only that the criteria to be "bonjwa" are not as clearly defined as grandmaster in chess is. But still, the fact that the SC community is widely in agreeance to call boxer/nada/savior/oov bonjwa shows you the term "bonjwa" has its right. People will see when a new bonjwa turns up (if a bonjwa ever turns up again) and call him that and only a very small portion of antifans will disagree. | ||
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latent
United States428 Posts
On March 21 2009 07:37 damenmofa wrote: being considered "bonjwa" is not some arbitrary slang word, its about the most difficult and honorful to achieve nickname for a pro... only 4 people ever had it and nobody has had it since 2007. Its about the same as these "grandmaster" titles in chess or smth, only that the criteria to be "bonjwa" are not as clearly defined as grandmaster in chess is. But still, the fact that the SC community is widely in agreeance to call boxer/nada/savior/oov bonjwa shows you the term "bonjwa" has its right. People will see when a new bonjwa turns up (if a bonjwa ever turns up again) and call him that and only a very small portion of antifans will disagree. I think what matters is how the opening poster said "I heard that koreans fans gone crazy after Bisu winning the GCL, the fans are arguing now about that is Bisu the 5th Bonjwa or not". Look, I'll be the first to admit that the talk will have to be put away for a while until Bisu can start winning consecutive championships. But the anti-Bisu/Bonjwa hate is out of proportion. Having a 'Bonjwa' or best of everyone is always a good thing for any sport. With Jordan in the NBA, Tiger in golf, Gretzky/Lemieux in hockey, their success made their respective sports that much more appealing to people. Were Bisu to become the next Bonjwa, his skill coupled with his good looks would create a wonderful opportunity for Starcraft to grow, especially outside of Korea as the release of SC2 approaches. The fact that many people here wanted Bisu to fail so much demonstrates a lack of foresight. | ||
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rushz0rz
Canada5300 Posts
Ridiculous. | ||
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GGQ
Canada2653 Posts
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oatboy
United States198 Posts
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Mykill
Canada3402 Posts
On March 21 2009 08:07 oatboy wrote: so in a year or so he'll have six? It'd be hard to deny him bonjwa status if he had six titles. assuming he does get that far... We need another zerg bonjwa | ||
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fanatacist
10319 Posts
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IzaG
Trinidad/Tobago93 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66072 Posts
On March 21 2009 07:37 damenmofa wrote: being considered "bonjwa" is not some arbitrary slang word, its about the most difficult and honorful to achieve nickname for a pro... only 4 people ever had it and nobody has had it since 2007. Its about the same as these "grandmaster" titles in chess or smth, only that the criteria to be "bonjwa" are not as clearly defined as grandmaster in chess is. But still, the fact that the SC community is widely in agreeance to call boxer/nada/savior/oov bonjwa shows you the term "bonjwa" has its right. People will see when a new bonjwa turns up (if a bonjwa ever turns up again) and call him that and only a very small portion of antifans will disagree. I think nobody will doubt that Boxer/Nada/Savior/Oov were bonjwa. | ||
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Atrioc
United States1865 Posts
On March 21 2009 04:17 poor newb wrote: dont worry, fantasy will break his back and bisu osl champ Hahah | ||
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Tom Phoenix
1114 Posts
Bisu was at the top of FakeSteve`s Power Rank for 7 months (technically 8, but I do not count the 8th since that is when he was defeated by Mind). Does that count?(Warning! OSL spoiler ahead) + Show Spoiler + While I wanted Bisu to become a Bonjwa, I think he might have just wasted his chance by losing to fantasy. While that does not necessarilly mean he cannot still become Bonjwa, I just do not think he will have enough time to establish himself as one before the scene starts to switch to SC2, which leaves me quite dissapointed. | ||
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iSCOUT4u
United States327 Posts
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Lucktar
United States526 Posts
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DM20
Canada544 Posts
On March 21 2009 14:46 brad3104 wrote: I dont understand how July isnt on this list of 4. He's successful, but he's never completely dominated the scene. | ||
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Camlito
Australia4040 Posts
to me, they are worse and more annoying than diehard fans/over the top haters. | ||
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Boundz(DarKo)
5311 Posts
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ghostWriter
United States3302 Posts
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FieryBalrog
United States1381 Posts
 All sports get inflated skill levels over time. Do you think Babe Ruth would stand a chance in today's Baseball? | ||
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Zozma
United States1626 Posts
On March 23 2009 12:07 FieryBalrog wrote: I don't know much a bout baseball, but it seems like the technical skill he had back then would carry well to any era of baseball. Man some of the people in here. LARRY BIRD SUCKS BECAUSE ALL THE PLAYERS TODAY ARE MORE SKILLED. By that logic Boxer is a total noob too. All sports get inflated skill levels over time. Do you think Babe Ruth would stand a chance in today's Baseball? | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On March 21 2009 14:46 brad3104 wrote: I dont understand how July isnt on this list of 4. Because he was never the undisputed best at any time. | ||
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cunninglinguists
United States925 Posts
On March 23 2009 12:18 koreasilver wrote: Because he was never the undisputed best at any time. yeah. along with nal_ra, reach, goodfriend, anytime etc. they're recognized as second tier bonjwa's--incredibly skilled players--but not the dominating force that the title bonjwa is granted to. | ||
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Exteray
United States1094 Posts
If Jaedong continues to dominate like he is now.. would he be considered a bonjwa? | ||
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NicolBolas
United States1388 Posts
On March 21 2009 07:55 latent wrote: Were Bisu to become the next Bonjwa, his skill coupled with his good looks would create a wonderful opportunity for Starcraft to grow, especially outside of Korea as the release of SC2 approaches. The fact that many people here wanted Bisu to fail so much demonstrates a lack of foresight. I'm sorry. You don't get to be Bonjwa because you look good. Or because it would create a wonderful opportunity for SC to grow outside of Korea with SC2's release approaching. You get to be Bonjwa by proving that you deserve it. And I'm not seeing the kind of domination from Bisu that is deserving of that. Bisu is unquestionably the top Protoss player. But being Bonjwa is about more than just being the top player of a certain race. It means that you are, unquestionably the best StarCraft player on the planet, that you can crush the best of all 3 races and do so consistently over a period of time. Bisu has yet to show that. Winning back-to-back individual leagues is a good start, but a good start is not what makes a Bonjwa. When even your biggest detractors cannot help but accept your status as the current true Master of StarCraft, then you're Bonjwa. However, I would also go so far as to say that having a Bonjwa is bad for StarCraft. As much as Jordan made the public care about pro basketball during his reign of domination, it also made the tournaments boring. You knew who the winner was going to be before the game even started. I'm a fairly recent convert into watching StarCraft, so I've never actually lived through a period of Bonjwa. But I do know this; I much prefer that there are several people who have a strong chance of taking a tournament to having one favorite and if someone beats them in the finals, then it's an upset. I like it that the MSL final was Jangbi vs. Luxury, people who are not best of their respective races (though clearly second or third best). It's a surprise. Did anyone guess that this would be the final? Odds are, no; Jangbi fans certainly didn't expect that it'd be him vs. Luxury, and likewise for Luxury fans. I like it when tournaments are so close that the #2 or #3 of a race has a reasonable shot of taking the whole thing. On March 21 2009 12:48 konadora wrote: I think nobody will doubt that Boxer/Nada/Savior/Oov were bonjwa. Undoubtedly. However, that doesn't change the fact that the term is ill-defined. That there isn't an objective measure of when someone achieves Bonjwa status and when someone has lost it. It's basically if everyone starts calling you that, then you are. You get a title because the mob gives it to you. It would be nice if there was some actual objective measure of one's Bonjwa-ness. | ||
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D10
Brazil3409 Posts
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Zyarktodt
United States67 Posts
After watching the OSL, I have to say Jaedong is a candidate for Bonjwa. The man always wins in the end. He has the Bonjwa instinct of hating to lose and fighting on no matter what. | ||
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Harem
United States11390 Posts
On April 04 2009 22:45 Zyarktodt wrote: + Show Spoiler + After watching the OSL, I have to say Jaedong is a candidate for Bonjwa. The man always wins in the end. He has the Bonjwa instinct of hating to lose and fighting on no matter what. No, he isn't. There is no candidate. -.- | ||
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Magic84
Russian Federation1381 Posts
On April 04 2009 22:45 Zyarktodt wrote: + Show Spoiler + After watching the OSL, I have to say Jaedong is a candidate for Bonjwa. The man always wins in the end. He has the Bonjwa instinct of hating to lose and fighting on no matter what. + Show Spoiler + His career 68.51% according to tlpd is insane. He might not be called bonjwa thing cause overall sc level is too high, but i have no doubts he's the best to ever play the game, the best of all time, for sure the best right now | ||
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RobRoy2501
United States177 Posts
But on to the subject raised - give it some time. Best player now and DOMINANCE over a period are 2 different things. A super bowl winning team is not necesarily one of the greatest teams of all time, nor one of the most dominant. In fact, simply posting on this thread causing it to bump is essentially a spoiler. | ||
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tKd_
United States2916 Posts
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Piste
6165 Posts
On February 08 2009 02:12 Hot_Bid wrote: you just don't drop out at the Ro32 in your "best" mu if you're the dominant player. PvZ is his worst! For any terran/zerg 4 golds, two silvers and a bronze would be enough titles to secure the "bonjwa" title. But since the man himself doesn't want to be one (becouse bonjwas fall hard), let's not call him that. | ||
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captainwafflos
United States212 Posts
stop bumping this thread, for the love of god. part of being bonjwa is being essentially undefeatable -- the other is having every player be a significant underdog vs. said bonjwa. it's highly doubtful that jaedong will ever achieve either of these. the idea of bumping this thread as a result of a 3-2 final result is absurd to begin with. if jaedong had won 3-0, then maybe. in all seriousness, there will never be another bonjwa in the traditional sense for the remainder of sc1's lifespan. jaedong is a really good player -- possibly the best in the world right now. let's leave it at that. | ||
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Polyphasic
United States841 Posts
just give it up. | ||
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Signet
United States1718 Posts
On April 04 2009 23:17 tKd_ wrote: The standard of bonjwa needs to decrease, there will never be a bonjwa in sc1 ever again because the level is too high. Jaedong is bonjwa in my eyes, you have to be blind not to see it. It is the same with Jaedong now as it was with Bisu a month ago -- absolutely, he'd crush the bonjwas of the past. But like you said, there's too many highly, highly skilled players today for one to be dominant over 1-2 years like the old bonjwas. It's not the same long-term dominance for Jaedong since this is his first starleague win in almost 13 months. | ||
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MuR)Ernu
Finland768 Posts
On April 04 2009 23:27 Polyphasic wrote: when will you fuckers learn. there will never be a protoss bonjwa. protoss sucks. they don't have the aggressive abusiveness of the zerg, nor do they have the micro hacks of the terran. their late game spells and units suck compared to zerg. bisu was only good for a while because of his new build but everyone has adapted by now. bisu literally plays perfect protoss. if he isn't bonjwa now, he never will be. just give it up.  If protoss sucks, how come people play it? You are stupid. Also protoss has micro hacks too, its just not as visible and not as big as terrans. And protoss can be uber abusive too. | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
what? hurrrrrr all your shit is dead hurrrrrr all your shit is useless for a minute and still eats up supply hurrrrrr all my shit is in your base whenever i feel like it | ||
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Pioneer
994 Posts
On April 05 2009 00:19 IdrA wrote: protoss' spells suck? what? hurrrrrr all your shit is dead hurrrrrr all your shit is useless for a minute and still eats up supply hurrrrrr all my shit is in your base whenever i feel like it One of the Cheapest + Fastest units in the game and 3 mini nukes that deal 125 damage each. EMP that can render multiple arbiters useless and multiple spell casters in 1 - 2 shots. A unit that can deal up to 85 damage per volley. oh forgot, hurrrrrrrrrrr | ||
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Deleted User 31060
3788 Posts
On April 05 2009 00:26 Pioneer wrote: One of the Cheapest + Fastest units in the game and 3 mini nukes that deal 125 damage each. EMP that can render multiple arbiters useless and multiple spell casters in 1 - 2 shots. A unit that can deal up to 85 damage per volley. oh forgot, hurrrrrrrrrrr this is going to get funny :popcorn: the only reason EMP is so good is because it prevents the overpowered protoss spells if you think vultures are cheap, look at reavers, no friendly splash damage, not to mention mines are more capable of taking out terran units b/c of low HP than protoss units | ||
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
On April 04 2009 23:27 Polyphasic wrote: when will you fuckers learn. there will never be a protoss bonjwa. protoss sucks. they don't have the aggressive abusiveness of the zerg, nor do they have the micro hacks of the terran. their late game spells and units suck compared to zerg. bisu was only good for a while because of his new build but everyone has adapted by now. bisu literally plays perfect protoss. if he isn't bonjwa now, he never will be. just give it up. Hahahahhahahahahahha AHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA I expected to meet a bunch of "Jaedong is Bonjwa" posts, but I guess not. Both of them are extremely good, that's all you can say. | ||
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arb
Noobville17920 Posts
On April 05 2009 00:40 Klive5ive wrote: Hahahahhahahahahahha AHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA I expected to meet a bunch of "Jaedong is Bonjwa" posts, but I guess not. Both of them are extremely good, that's all you can say. im waiting on them too.. | ||
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CDRdude
United States5625 Posts
Jaedong is Bonjwa. | ||
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arb
Noobville17920 Posts
On April 05 2009 00:26 Pioneer wrote: One of the Cheapest + Fastest units in the game and 3 mini nukes that deal 125 damage each.Dont forget fucking up can kill all your shit aswell as his! EMP that can render multiple arbiters useless and multiple spell casters in 1 - 2 shots. Dont forget this is a slow spell that if youre paying attention you can dodge! A unit that can deal up to 85 damage per volley.Dont forget taht all your vultures in the front are going to get analed by splash! oh forgot, hurrrrrrrrrrr lets fix this.. hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr | ||
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
On April 05 2009 00:47 CDRdude wrote: Well, if you insist... Jaedong is Bonjwa. Then in your sig "Bisu is the true Bonjwa" I see what you did there. Jaedong is the FAKE Bonjwa | ||
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Musoeun
United States4324 Posts
Bisu is the true bonwja. Very different word. | ||
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RobRoy2501
United States177 Posts
too much hurrrrrrrr Besides - protoss can mind control and use ALL the spells(and double supply). Super OP imo. | ||
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G5
United States2863 Posts
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Pioneer
994 Posts
just because you lost to a guy that abuses D/D- players up to C doesn't mean protoss is imba =[[[[[[ | ||
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Zurles
United Kingdom1659 Posts
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Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
On March 23 2009 12:30 cunninglinguists wrote: yeah. along with nal_ra, reach, goodfriend, anytime etc. they're recognized as second tier bonjwa's--incredibly skilled players--but not the dominating force that the title bonjwa is granted to. second tier bonjwa? there's no such thing And July and Ra easily stand above Reach, Anytime and especially badfriend. | ||
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Jaksiel
United States4130 Posts
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
The word bonjwa word in itself isn't fair anymore. Stuff that Bisu, jaedong and flash(again, not enough accomplishments but he'll get there^^) have done is way harder and have probably taken more practice and sweat to accomplish than what savior oov and the other bonjwas did. So if people look back at the 10 years or whatever of starcraft when starcraft 2 is out i dont think the bonjwas should be credited more than the best players of today. There was 4 bonjwas, these were the greatest players etc is bs imo and i'd say the greatest players of starcraft is boxer oov savior nada bisu jaedong so far. Closely followed by alot of players such as july stork flash(thus far) jangbi etc... edit: I know you can't change the meaning of the word bonjwa, but you should invent a better word meaning: One of the best of all time, and not the single best player at his time. This way it would be fair for all the players. | ||
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EternaLEnVy
Canada513 Posts
On April 05 2009 02:57 StylishVODs wrote: Bonjwas in the past was only able to become bonjwas because they were the only really good player at their time. Now its so much harder to become bonjwa because everyone is practicing so much and atm we have like 2-3 really good players, imo such as bisu jaedong and flash(not enough accomplishments) when they peak their play. The word bonjwa word in itself isn't fair anymore. Stuff that Bisu, jaedong and flash(again, not enough accomplishments but he'll get there^^) have done is way harder and have probably taken more practice and sweat to accomplish than what savior oov and the other bonjwas did. So if people look back at the 10 years or whatever of starcraft when starcraft 2 is out i dont think the bonjwas should be credited more than the best players of today. There was 4 bonjwas, these were the greatest players etc is bs imo and i'd say the greatest players of starcraft is boxer oov savior nada bisu jaedong so far. Closely followed by alot of players such as july stork flash(thus far) jangbi etc... edit: I know you can't change the meaning of the word bonjwa, but you should invent a better word meaning: One of the best of all time, and not the single best player at his time. This way it would be fair for all the players. Your broke my balls when u mentioned jangbi. | ||
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ZeroCartin
Costa Rica2390 Posts
On April 05 2009 02:57 StylishVODs wrote: edit: I know you can't change the meaning of the word bonjwa, but you should invent a better word meaning: One of the best of all time, and not the single best player at his time. The new word is Bisu. | ||
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
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Pioneer
994 Posts
On April 05 2009 00:34 Sunyveil wrote: this is going to get funny :popcorn: the only reason EMP is so good is because it prevents the overpowered protoss spells if you think vultures are cheap, look at reavers, no friendly splash damage, not to mention mines are more capable of taking out terran units b/c of low HP than protoss units http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMXmcQKjM3U&feature=PlayList&p=6855B47661500C87&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=29 That's why you don't leave your units over a large clump of mines when the other player is zealot bombing. Just like you try not to run your own units under storm while your storming. And what are you talking about preventing overpowered protoss spells? Have you ever seen a game where the terran has a large 3-3 army vs a protoss army that has arbs and storm then an emp catches the arbs and ht? The protoss army melts so fast it's unbelievable. Those 'overpowered' spells are necessary because if they weren't there protoss would get rolled every single battle late game. Maybe you should learn the game before making comments lol | ||
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EvilTeletubby
Baltimore, USA22250 Posts
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