EPThttp://www.sk-gaming.com/member/trance
I still remember the days of team NuT lol me nony and nooks used to hvae lots of fun with that team.
The competition on ICCUP is pretty strong. - Page 8
| Forum Index > Closed |
|
JoeSaddles
United States344 Posts
http://www.sk-gaming.com/member/trance I still remember the days of team NuT lol me nony and nooks used to hvae lots of fun with that team. | ||
|
Drazzzt
Germany999 Posts
JoeSaddles wrote: edited: adding more reps Coldheart C, Korean, 43-15 SaddleS C, USA, 41-20 ( i know my record sux cut me some slack it's my 4'th day back) Not much to say about this one. I do a build that is designed just to force him to build drones, and it kills him. I guess my zealot vs zergling/drone/sunken micro is good, I have practiced that specific type of micro more than any kind... don't know what else to say, he is obviously not a newb. http://rapidshare.com/files/185270563/coldheartpvz1.rep NrT.FlaF 15-1 D+ Romania Saddles Same as above, I do a build that is designed only to put pressure on them early, and it ends up winning outright. I know these are not complete newb players, so I believe my zealot vs ling micro can still be good in today's game, with a few weeks of practicing it'll be at a high level I think (again it's only meant to force them to build LINGS instead of drones, pro zergs will never die to it off the bat, instead it slows their economy a lot, like it did vs the 60-20 zerg) http://rapidshare.com/files/185275054/nrtpvz1.rep.htmlteam. Hi Joe, I was following your comeback and your blog quite closely, even though I haven't commented on it yet. Probably, it's just that I am quite an old schooler as well (started in 99), sometimes quit, came back, quit (never for 4 years though  ), came back and so on. Right now, I am something in between. The difference definitely is that I was never really good (and never played that much). Probably in 2001 or something I was one of the better German players, but since then....now I am just D+ and could probably reach C- if I tried hard (so I am really bad). I nevertheless do have a lot of experience in theorycrafting and have watched a lot of REPs, VODs and so for almost 10 years now.Your style of coming back at least on TL-net was quite entertaining, a bit cocky though, but I guess you already know. Anyways, I doesn't matter to me, because I am not taking SC seriously anymore (or never really did). The flame war was fun etc. Ok, I start wandering off. Coming to my point: I just watched the two REPs quoted above. Unfortunately, I couldn't download the other ones as the rapidshare only allowed 10 downloads. Maybe you repost them again? Anyways, I watched those REPs and to be honest they only prove ONE thing. You are absolutely on the WRONG WAY. Sorry to say this. WHY? You are talking about zealot and probe micro and are using 2 gate rushes. Okay, fine. In 2000-2003 I was doing exactly the same thing and I was really good at it. Killing zergs who were careless enough to do a 12 hatch (like Coldheart did) at a rather close position, which is almost impossible to hold or doing a non-stop zealot-power rush to kill the incautious zerg not playing safe enough (your 2nd game). And back in the days it was even harder to do these kind of rushes than nowadays (!), because many zerg player were EXPECTING it (because it was quite common) and were prepared. so: 1.) The micro/macro necessary is really easy (even I can do it decently) and shows nothing about your real ability to micro/macro at the same time in more complex situations. 2.) These players were not used to it/not expecting it, didn't know how to deal with it properly. 3.) It would get much harder if you'd play a best of 3 or 5 vs them. I know why you are doing that kind of rushes. You are used to them, you win games with them and this is important for you now, because you feel the pressure of the other TL members you challenged (at least some, not me), who would lol at you if you wouldn't be C-/C now. So, for me it is understandable, but nevertheless it is the WORST thing you could do right now. Really. (I know I just watched 2 replays, but that most of your won games are <10min shows me that you are doing a lot rush/all-in kind of games). If you want to really improve your game and not get as good as you used to be, you should STOP that kind of gaming immediately, even though it will most probably imply that you will lose more games and fall in the ranks (or barely hold it). But nevertheless you should do it (atl east in my opinion). Now, on to the reasoning: To really improve your game, you have to practice the things you are worst at (this was of course not invented by me, but e.g. Daniel Lee a famous korean proteam coach said it (he also coached Grrrr..., Elky, Legionairre etc) and was confirmed by your highly esteemed Nony, go ask him). Things you are already good at (like zeal/probe micro, rush) are not worth to practice anymore (or at least right now!). You know how to rush. STOP rushing. Better players will never fall for it and then it's just a BAD opening, believe me. Even C-players usually won't fall for it more than once or twice. So, to really get better and decent again you should 1.) non-stop practice the new builds, maybe you've got an advantage here over younger players, because they might take the builds as unchangeable facts even though they are actually only made for progamers. At C/B-level they can definitely be improved by certain adjustments you could much better find with a skeptical look from the old days. 2.) Use micro maps, improve you micro, especially the micro you are NOT good at. 3.) Read strategies, watch progamer VODs and play again those new strategies. Only by playing them you will learn how to hold your FE against ALL-INs and you will learn how to learn more from your scouting probe. This will probably mean that you will lose a lot more games and that there might be some ppl laughing at you, but only this will finally make you a better gamer. Don't care about the laughing, it's just a consequence of your cocky comeback at TL! I don't know which rank you can reach with your oldschool type of play, but there will be a limit which you can only beat if you learn the new ways of playing and adjust to it. And the earlier you practice this, the better. If you wait too long there will be the peril that you stick to your old ways and quit SC again, because of fearing to lose your rank. You then know: "if I do my oldschool ways I can probably win 50:50. If I change my style it's at the beginning 20:80 or something". and only with a lot of practice you can put it to 50:50 again and only then you can further improve your rank. And the later you begin with it the more difficult it will be to actually do it (as your brain and your urge to win again will always try to move you back to your old ways) I don't know if I could convey what I was trying to say, but anyways I tried hard  .BTW: I was doing the exact same thing (albeit on a much lower level) and only when I started to do things differently I could improve. GL | ||
|
JoeSaddles
United States344 Posts
in fact in most of those PvZ I end up playing 13 -15 minute games where the zerg's economy is messed up but he doesnt die, this is the whole point of my build.... it's not like im doing some insane all in rush like you are thinking, I simply build zealots from 2 gates while teching to sair/citadel.... I do not think you are correct at all about this, my games are not "all in" types of builds, I happen to be winning most of my games in under 10 minutes simply because a lot of the players I'm playing are not that good with micro/macro..... heres my last couple losses at C- rank..... http://www.iccup.com/gamingprofile/pbszzanga.html 43-13 C korean, think he really belongs at C rank ??? http://www.iccup.com/gamingprofile/vsofra.html 62-22 C+.... korean... again with a record like that does this player belong at C rank? http://www.iccup.com/gamingprofile/gkwjdgh.html 20-6 korean http://www.iccup.com/gamingprofile/davidjoy_cn.html 60-4 Chinese. Lost 2 games to him where I had early advantage in both. Rusty micro and macro blew these games for me, I was winning both early. Think he belongs at C+ rank or perhaps a bit higher??? http://www.iccup.com/gamingprofile/wyvern[toss].html 71-49 C+ korean, don't think he's gonna max out at C+... http://www.iccup.com/gamingprofile/honestfg.html 30-11 C korean **... same as above http://www.iccup.com/gamingprofile/mouseware.html 40-11 C korean. is this player truly a C ranked player? I doubt it when you look at his record.... http://www.iccup.com/gamingprofile/nuttin.html 26-7 C korean. http://www.iccup.com/gamingprofile/loveyunyun.html 40-23 C korean, B last season. Out of my last 17 losses, 12 OF THEM ARE TO THESE PLAYERS.... WHO ARE ALL B OR HIGHER MATERIAL..... the other 5 are to players with worse recrods (but nobody under 50% win percentage). So... if you seriously think I'm just a newb who can only win with rush, you need to do some more research, MOST of my losses are to players who don't even belong at my rank, everyone else I am beating. and for the 5'th time I CAN PLAY LONG GAMES... did you even read what I wrote to describe the PvZ reps? those strats aren't even meant to kill them...... It's my 5'th day back, 75% of my losses are to players who belong at B- or higher, and I'm still getting my handspeed back (only at 190 apm right now when used to be at 240) | ||
|
Lachrymose
Australia1928 Posts
On January 19 2009 21:43 JoeSaddles wrote:Out of my last 17 losses, 12 OF THEM ARE TO THESE PLAYERS.... WHO ARE ALL B OR HIGHER MATERIAL..... Why makes you so sure you're in any position to judge who you play is a B player? You seem to bring this up alot, yet you've never been B. What makes you think the other C players you played are representitive over these guys? Extrapolating rank via win percentage is pretty much considered a cardinal sin here. | ||
|
foodontable
China341 Posts
On January 19 2009 22:21 Lachrymose wrote: Why makes you so sure you're in any position to judge who you play is a B player? You seem to bring this up alot, yet you've never been B. What makes you think the other C players you played are representitive over these guys? Extrapolating rank via win percentage is pretty much considered a cardinal sin here. This. | ||
|
Drazzzt
Germany999 Posts
On January 19 2009 21:43 JoeSaddles wrote: both of my reps you watched were games where all the zeals were meant to do was force the zerg to build lings instead of drones... didn't you see what i wrote up for them? I really was trying hard but I think you didn't get my message anyways. Probably it's my fault for not being clear enough. As I said I know these kinda builds perfectly as I played them over and over again myself. No need to eplain the reason why you do them. And yes, these builds are viable and they will probably might get you to b-rank (even though I don't know I was never that high...). I don't know what your goals are. If you want to become as good as you once were, no problem with that. keep doing these builds and improve your mechanics. You probably will become even slightly better than 2004 in 2 months or something. i dont know. But. you will never get much better, because you lack the new strategical concepts. so, if you want to become much better than in 2004, play the new builds. you know how to play the old ones. no need to practice. you will only improve your hand speed. ok. play the new ones. the earlier the better. then you can also improve your strategic ability. There is a reason why 2 gate builds are barely used from protoss progamers anymore (only on certain maps like requiem e.g.). And this simply means you won't break a certain limit with the old builds. Your limit might only have a chance to get higher if you play the new builds a lot. ok. in short: play the old builds, you will win more games now, later you will have a hard,hard time to get any higher and might be unwilling to adapt as it is much harder to adapt at B-level than it is at D level | ||
|
Hypnosis
United States2061 Posts
On January 19 2009 21:43 JoeSaddles wrote: both of my reps you watched were games where all the zeals were meant to do was force the zerg to build lings instead of drones... didn't you see what i wrote up for them? in fact in most of those PvZ I end up playing 13 -15 minute games where the zerg's economy is messed up but he doesnt die, this is the whole point of my build.... it's not like im doing some insane all in rush like you are thinking, I simply build zealots from 2 gates while teching to sair/citadel.... I do not think you are correct at all about this, my games are not "all in" types of builds, I happen to be winning most of my games in under 10 minutes simply because a lot of the players I'm playing are not that good with micro/macro..... heres my last couple losses at C- rank..... http://www.iccup.com/gamingprofile/pbszzanga.html 43-13 C korean, think he really belongs at C rank ??? http://www.iccup.com/gamingprofile/vsofra.html 62-22 C+.... korean... again with a record like that does this player belong at C rank? http://www.iccup.com/gamingprofile/gkwjdgh.html 20-6 korean http://www.iccup.com/gamingprofile/davidjoy_cn.html 60-4 Chinese. Lost 2 games to him where I had early advantage in both. Rusty micro and macro blew these games for me, I was winning both early. Think he belongs at C+ rank or perhaps a bit higher??? http://www.iccup.com/gamingprofile/wyvern[toss].html 71-49 C+ korean, don't think he's gonna max out at C+... http://www.iccup.com/gamingprofile/honestfg.html 30-11 C korean **... same as above http://www.iccup.com/gamingprofile/mouseware.html 40-11 C korean. is this player truly a C ranked player? I doubt it when you look at his record.... http://www.iccup.com/gamingprofile/nuttin.html 26-7 C korean. http://www.iccup.com/gamingprofile/loveyunyun.html 40-23 C korean, B last season. Out of my last 17 losses, 12 OF THEM ARE TO THESE PLAYERS.... WHO ARE ALL B OR HIGHER MATERIAL..... the other 5 are to players with worse recrods (but nobody under 50% win percentage). So... if you seriously think I'm just a newb who can only win with rush, you need to do some more research, MOST of my losses are to players who don't even belong at my rank, everyone else I am beating. and for the 5'th time I CAN PLAY LONG GAMES... did you even read what I wrote to describe the PvZ reps? those strats aren't even meant to kill them...... It's my 5'th day back, 75% of my losses are to players who belong at B- or higher, and I'm still getting my handspeed back (only at 190 apm right now when used to be at 240) Joesaddles 1v1 @ iccup? | ||
|
Salv
Canada3083 Posts
| ||
|
JoeSaddles
United States344 Posts
On January 19 2009 22:21 Lachrymose wrote: Why makes you so sure you're in any position to judge who you play is a B player? You seem to bring this up alot, yet you've never been B. What makes you think the other C players you played are representitive over these guys? Extrapolating rank via win percentage is pretty much considered a cardinal sin here. Is this post serious? you really don't think that 40-11 C korean players could get to B rank? or how bout the 60-2 chinese guy? or the other 35-7 type koreans?? Do you honestly believe that these players would be UNABLE to get to B rank? With those kind of records? ?????? give me a break... those are B material players. | ||
|
IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On January 20 2009 01:28 JoeSaddles wrote: Is this post serious? you really don't think that 40-11 C korean players could get to B rank? or how bout the 60-2 chinese guy? or the other 35-7 type koreans?? Do you honestly believe that these players would be UNABLE to get to B rank? With those kind of records? ?????? give me a break... those are B material players. the 45-2* chinese guy had half of his wins vs D ranked players, hence being 45-2 at C rank. and most players will go 80+% win until theyre within a rank or 2 of their max, then hit a wall, especially late season when most of the good players have already passed through on their way up. so ya playing high % C's does not equate to playing B's, at all. | ||
|
koreasilver
9109 Posts
You're not even feigning humility anymore. | ||
|
Frits
11782 Posts
Also this site has the most accessible database for progaming stuff and you keep using crappy outdated strategies, why. If you want to gain any respect here you should start gaming and stop talking, like all the good foreigners do. I've never seen Nony talk about how good he can be if only he tried on some ladder, or making excuses for why someone handed his ass to him. He just gets better, without giving 2 shits about what the community thinks. There's a reason why actions speak louder than words. | ||
|
Divinek
Canada4045 Posts
And since how you're talking about how your losses are only to REALLY good players: http://www.iccup.com/gamingprofile/index545.html Statistics 39 - 33 - 0 C- http://www.iccup.com/gamingprofile/1a2a3azerg.html Statistics 88 - 89 - 0 C http://www.iccup.com/gamingprofile/kss5637.html Statistics 199 - 310 - 0 C- What are these like D level stats? http://www.iccup.com/gamingprofile/noe-chan.html Statistics 30 - 26 - 0 D+ player/bare c- http://www.iccup.com/gamingprofile/isleader.html Statistics 29 - 23 - 0 c- barely 50% http://www.iccup.com/gamingprofile/[7x]levit.html Statistics 51 - 58 - 0 c- etc Now I'm not saying you don't lose to good players, naturally players would lose to good players, however they arent restricted to these. And it doesnt matter WHO you lose to, I mean just because I'm like omg I'm losing to A+ koreans, doesn't some how make you better. And don't even get me started on the cirumstances for wins. Oh and thank you idra for pointing that out, especially at this point in the season that is very true. | ||
Heyoka
Katowice25012 Posts
On January 18 2009 15:28 JoeSaddles wrote: have the protoss vs zerg overall statistics really gone up that much since FE??? whats the win rate for protoss vs zerg overall in pro league?? As people have mentioned, FE and Bisu are two different events but here is an interesting statistic, courtesy of TLPD! Pre-Bisu-vs-Savior ZvP: 682-547 (55.49%) Post-Bisu-vs-Savior ZvP: 300-308 (49.34%) | ||
KwarK
United States44379 Posts
| ||
|
koreasilver
9109 Posts
| ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36402 Posts
| ||
|
Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17743 Posts
On January 20 2009 01:28 JoeSaddles wrote: Is this post serious? you really don't think that 40-11 C korean players could get to B rank? or how bout the 60-2 chinese guy? or the other 35-7 type koreans?? Do you honestly believe that these players would be UNABLE to get to B rank? With those kind of records? ?????? give me a break... those are B material players. I have a friend who gets stats like that till c and than his win rate just drops like crazy at c+. He goes from like 20-2 to 105-105. He barely got out of c+. | ||
|
iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
I will be home tomorrow let us game some! | ||
|
JoeSaddles
United States344 Posts
On January 20 2009 19:52 {88}iNcontroL wrote: I'm C on ICCUP ^_^ I will be home tomorrow let us game some! for sure InC we need to practice some games msg me whenever !!!! | ||
| ||
