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On May 19 2008 22:05 2BearqLoza wrote:I have to agree.... Stork took gold last year.... Jaedong ran over Stork after WCG, and Flash ran over Jaedong.... I dont think any non Korean gamer can beat Stork in finals, and I think there is NO WAY any non Korean gamer can beat Jaedong or Flash..... If they take 1 game from flash, they can be veeeery happy...... Kid is just TOO good........ Last 17 games he played, he lost only 2. He raped Stork, Bisu, Anytime, Jaedong, and many others..... Last WCG Koreans showed dominance..... when we were looking their games, we could see the difference. And after that WCG, Jaedong and Flash raised the level of games even higher...... Good luck............
Still some time before WCG and latest results show that none of the Korean (after the Savior era) managed to perform consistent results for too long.
Moreover, WCG Korean qualifications are even harder than the final WCG phase itself, so not always the best 3 koreans make it trought. Outsider are always possible and i am sure there will be surprises!
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Koreans are just getting better and better, more professional and professional.
Also, I doubt there will be no SC BW on WCG. They have 4 RTS games right now. Which 4 are better than SC?
SC2? It still needs the expansion first and then a year to mature. That could take 3 more years. It's not even released yet. And even in 3 years, which 3 RTSes will push out SC? Hell, it's very questionable if SC2 itself will actually be better than SC.
Not that SC is so good but game companies are just too scared to make RTS games focussed on serious multiplayer play. As shown by that comment of the DoW designer.
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On May 19 2008 15:12 Seraphim wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2008 12:21 Showtime! wrote:
I agree with 1 and 3; however, not 2.
Nice article incontrol. How could 3 be true and not 2?
Read a few posts above. There will always be 'upsets' at the WCG. If you look at most WCG brackets you'll notice that before the finals two Korean players have to face off against one another :. taking out one of their fellow countrymen before it is all said and done. I believe this will occur in the second stage. In the finals we're likely to see either jaedong or flash if the prelims were to be played right now, but then again the Korean prelims are one of the hardest 'tests' because it used to be Bo1, so anything can and will happen. WCG final is a best of series as well. I simply don't see a foreigner taking the prize, but their is a possibility that someone will do what PJ did by knocking out the lesser Korean in the bronze medal match.
All this speculation comes down to the opening brackets.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On May 19 2008 22:52 BlackStar wrote:
Koreans are just getting better and better, more professional and professional.
Also, I doubt there will be no SC BW on WCG. They have 4 RTS games right now. Which 4 are better than SC?
SC2? It still needs the expansion first and then a year to mature. That could take 3 more years. It's not even released yet. And even in 3 years, which 3 RTSes will push out SC? Hell, it's very questionable if SC2 itself will actually be better than SC.
Not that SC is so good but game companies are just too scared to make RTS games focussed on serious multiplayer play. As shown by that comment of the DoW designer. Im pretty sure WCG will remove SC in favor of the $$ SC2 will provide
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They had C&C3 locked in as a game many months before it's release, so I don't see why they won't do the same for SC2
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Am I the only one who just doesnt care if they remove BW from WCG? WCG seems quite poorly run, especially compared to TSL. And with all the new crap games they keep adding to WCG its just turning into a joke.
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Hyopthetically speaking (this is what I perceive to be the most likely outcome):
Flash, Jaedong and Bisu qualify from Korea.
Looking at the best foreign players now we have something like:
T: Strelok, Brat_ok, Idra, A2 etc
P: Naij, Nony, Draco, Ra etc
Z: Mondragon, Dinot, Gosia, Haypro
Can anyone honestly see players like Jaedong, Bisu, Flash losing a series to these guys? It's one thing to take a game, but to lose a series would be big.
Looking and hearing from Idra, he is struggling (as you would expect) and is yet to even pass courage. Draco was in Korea for around a year (give or take) and did little more than pass courage (which is an achievement in itself).
Draco and Idra are examples of top foreigners who have struggled to compete in the semi-pro, let alone pro arena of Starcraft.
I think you are underestimating the cream of the crop of Korean BW Inc. Top foreign players have proven themselves to struggle vs the Korean semi-pros let alone the big boys.
They have better mechanics, skills, experience, training facilities and are professionals who are paid to be successful at Starcraft.
Does anyone honestly see a foreigner taking down the cream of Korean BW? There hasn't been a foreigner compete at the top since Elky and I don't see that changing.
I think Savior underestimated PJ and the foreigners in general last year, but he was already in the midst of a sharp decline. Stork was clearly trying to rig the brackets when he lost vs Ra. He wanetd to avoid playing Hwasin early in the ro16, but unfortunantely for him so did Ex and Ra (we all remember the ridiculous merry-go-round antics that went on).
Stork ripped easily thourgh the ro16 brackets when he had to.
Foreign players may have Lan to train on, but they don't come close to the same facilities the Korean players have. They don't have dedicated players of very high caliber to help them train.
Honestly, the only thing that I agree with your post is the map issue. But even in acknowledging that, it's not as though the Kor players are unfamiliar with these maps. Gaia is the only non Starleague map meaning the Kor players have all trained extensively on maps like Tau and Peaks. They may be a tad rusty, but they'll still remember the optimal builds and timing. I'm not even sure this is a real advantage here. Maybe slightly, but not enough to sway a series to a foreigner.
I don't think Korea has stagnated. The Korean WCG has changed from the days where retards like Ogogo would qualify (and he still won even though he wasn't anywhere near the top of Korean BW). They've changed the system as you know, so there's a much greater likelyhood the best pros will be sent (based on Kespa rankings).
Anyone of the Kespa top 30 players are much better players than the top foreigners. I know everyone is feeling the foreigner love atm with TSL, but honestly, it's going to play out the same way it does every year. There will be a few surprise games where a foreigner snipes a win, but I'll make my own BOLD prediction: A Korean player will win WCG 100%.
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On May 20 2008 02:13 RowdierBob wrote:
Hyopthetically speaking (this is what I perceive to be the most likely outcome):
Flash, Jaedong and Bisu qualify from Korea.
Looking at the best foreign players now we have something like:
T: Strelok, Brat_ok, Idra, A2 etc
P: Naij, Nony, Draco, Ra etc
Z: Mondragon, Dinot, Gosia, Haypro
Can anyone honestly see players like Jaedong, Bisu, Flash losing a series to these guys? It's one thing to take a game, but to lose a series would be big.
Looking and hearing from Idra, he is struggling (as you would expect) and is yet to even pass courage. Draco was in Korea for around a year (give or take) and did little more than pass courage (which is an achievement in itself).
Draco and Idra are examples of top foreigners who have struggled to compete in the semi-pro, let alone pro arena of Starcraft.
I think you are underestimating the cream of the crop of Korean BW Inc. Top foreign players have proven themselves to struggle vs the Korean semi-pros let alone the big boys.
They have better mechanics, skills, experience, training facilities and are professionals who are paid to be successful at Starcraft.
Does anyone honestly see a foreigner taking down the cream of Korean BW? There hasn't been a foreigner compete at the top since Elky and I don't see that changing.
I think Savior underestimated PJ and the foreigners in general last year, but he was already in the midst of a sharp decline. Stork was clearly trying to rig the brackets when he lost vs Ra. He wanetd to avoid playing Hwasin early in the ro16, but unfortunantely for him so did Ex and Ra (we all remember the ridiculous merry-go-round antics that went on).
Stork ripped easily thourgh the ro16 brackets when he had to.
Foreign players may have Lan to train on, but they don't come close to the same facilities the Korean players have. They don't have dedicated players of very high caliber to help them train.
Honestly, the only thing that I agree with your post is the map issue. But even in acknowledging that, it's not as though the Kor players are unfamiliar with these maps. Gaia is the only non Starleague map meaning the Kor players have all trained extensively on maps like Tau and Peaks. They may be a tad rusty, but they'll still remember the optimal builds and timing. I'm not even sure this is a real advantage here. Maybe slightly, but not enough to sway a series to a foreigner.
I don't think Korea has stagnated. The Korean WCG has changed from the days where retards like Ogogo would qualify (and he still won even though he wasn't anywhere near the top of Korean BW). They've changed the system as you know, so there's a much greater likelyhood the best pros will be sent (based on Kespa rankings).
Anyone of the Kespa top 30 players are much better players than the top foreigners. I know everyone is feeling the foreigner love atm with TSL, but honestly, it's going to play out the same way it does every year. There will be a few surprise games where a foreigner snipes a win, but I'll make my own BOLD prediction: A Korean player will win WCG 100%.
Draco didn't pass courage. Otherwise read my post on page 3 and you will see that I mostly agree.
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What he said.
Keep in mind, it usually takes players a few years before they see any results while taking up residence in the pro gamer houses. There is a lot to it.
Draco is far from the level of the low tier pro gamers.
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Don't you have to pass courage to play the MSL/OSL offline prelims?
Or did Draco get special permission?
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On May 20 2008 02:55 RowdierBob wrote:
Don't you have to pass courage to play the MSL/OSL offline prelims?
Or did Draco get special permission?
Draco got the a progamer license of eStro like PJ and LX from SKTelecomT1.
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Your point about foreign players' improvements sound exactly like what's been said before every WCG in the last few years.
I think the one thing foreigners have going for them's that with everyone's play, foreigners and Koreans, increasing, specially prepared builds become more and more important and obviously the foreigners will have the much better preparation.
When is WCG Korea by the way?
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On May 19 2008 22:15 Ilikestarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2008 14:31 [X]Ken_D wrote:
I forgot about the LAN Latency. When I notice that the TSL replays look like semi-pro games I thought it was just the quality of the players. LAN setting makes a HUGEEE difference.
MasterOfChaos deserves to be include in Starcraft wikipedia for his Latency Changer. It's revolutionary because it finally allows people to play at their fullest potential with people around the world instead of limiting to LAN. i agree about how awesome moc is but i disagree about the replays looking like semi-pros. Korean amateurs yes but semi-pro is stretching it.
unfortunately i have to agree here. some of the games like dreiven vs mondi looked really almost like semi-pro level but on the other hand series like gosia vs nony... I am willing to bet that you could take any online practice partner of korean pro teams and put him up in that series, he would have raped the other person silly. And dont tell me that nonys pvz is that strong, yeah it maybe strong against foreigners, but It would crumble like a cookie to any korean semi-pro/practice partner Z.
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I predict places 1-3 go to Korea, places 4-XX will be divided among the newb nations.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On May 20 2008 04:08 Orome wrote:
Your point about foreign players' improvements sound exactly like what's been said before every WCG in the last few years.
I think the one thing foreigners have going for them's that with everyone's play, foreigners and Koreans, increasing, specially prepared builds become more and more important and obviously the foreigners will have the much better preparation.
When is WCG Korea by the way?
How the hell can you say that? We have never had chaos/ICCUP with chaos. That is unique to THIS timeframe not years past. And players have improved each year true, but not with the added bonus of chaos plugin. You are missing some pretty important factors here.
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FConnectionUK
United States316 Posts
On May 20 2008 05:09 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2008 04:08 Orome wrote:
Your point about foreign players' improvements sound exactly like what's been said before every WCG in the last few years.
I think the one thing foreigners have going for them's that with everyone's play, foreigners and Koreans, increasing, specially prepared builds become more and more important and obviously the foreigners will have the much better preparation.
When is WCG Korea by the way? How the hell can you say that? We have never had chaos/ICCUP with chaos. That is unique to THIS timeframe not years past. And players have improved each year true, but not with the added bonus of chaos plugin. You are missing some pretty important factors here.
I agree that LAN setting is one of the aspect that has been changed/improved. However, that only put top foreigners in the same shoe as in Korean Team B members at best. Korean B teams are also perfectly capable of pulling of amazing micro like of the top players. What they lack is reading the circumstances as fast and efficiently as the team A members. Also let's not forget the experience factor. For Koreans, the big stage is a non-factor. They are so used to the big stages. However, for top foreigners to be put into spot light in this grand scale of publicity, we cannot gaurantee what type of performance we will see. It could be great... or not.
Possibility of a top foreigner winning the wcg has increased a ton. Maybe 10% to 35%? Big increase, but won't really affect anything in the big picture.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
In the past without this factor koreans have lost to top gamers. It happens every year. With additional factors that close the gap between said gamers wer see an increased propensity for what has already happened to happen at an increased frequency. My prediction is unique and has factors based in a reality we live each day.
People stating "they have hours upon hours of training with other pros" need to realize this is non unique. They have had that each year. We gained something that we didnt have in years past while they have gained nothing. That is unique to now. I cannot wait for this to click with some of you.
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Bold and speculative indeed. I'm inclined to agree with you, simply because I want to see it happen (except for #3 of course  ).
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lol you can dream on all you like. Korea gets fresh blood every year that are true monsters. They build on their experiences year by year. That's not something that gets overcome by latency.
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I think that that whether or not a foreigner takes the number one slot is largely dependent on who Korea sends. If sAvior, Hwsain, and Nal_Ra all go to WCG, then we have a legitimate chance of taking a series off of them - they won't practice up for their matches and it's plausible that 3 series later we could have semi finals between foreigners.
But with the OSL, MSL, and Proleague being played they are, the quality of play has been really good these seasons. If Flash or Jaedong get sent to WCG I say that we, the foreign community, doesn't stand a chance.
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EPT
