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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
WCG 2008 in Cologne Germany will be the first WCG since foreigners on a mass scale have had access to LAN latency. Yes, we had hamachi. No, leagues did not implement hamachi nor did a ladder utilize the setting (to the scale we have now for sure, but I would argue the tiny percentage isn't even worth noting otherwise). This will mark a solid year that the entire foreigner gaming scene has been saturated with LAN latency via both ICCUP, private games but also the normalization of using CHAOS plugin for league, tourney and other types of games.
What does this mean? This means the advantage koreans held over us will be reduced. They go through years of playing offline events with practicing for the most part with other gamers in their house or at the local pc bang. This will be the first year we as foreigners can claim that for the most part (the best to our ability) we have recreated that. Sure the level of gamers we have trained with are significantly worse than the koreans but that is non unique. I am talking about a factor that didnt exist before now existing and how that benefits us as a gaming community.
An additional factor is the inclusion of key nations. With the Netherlands and other countries considering a WCG we have access to players that are top quality and especially driven that we never would have had in the past like Ret, Haypro and others. I would also add that with TSL running this close to WCG Draco will be in better shape than he was the previous year and a strong Protoss on these maps (especially with Draco's potential) can mean big things for the foreigners. Couple that with the fact that WCG is in Cologne, Germany which I think increases the chances of a WCG being held for all the european nations and we have a better player base this year.
The maps favor non koreans over koreans (like they do every year imo). Python/Bluestorm being the only real maps they will have any kind of interest in leaving Peaks/Tau/Gaia to be on our side. This is mentioned every year and doesn't pan out that much but I would contend with the compiling factors it starts to add up.
Korea has stagnated. They sent Savior, Hwasin and Stork to WCG 2007. Savior was thought of as some unmovable monster. Hwasin was going to destroy everyone and meet him in the finals. Stork was a strong protoss but nobody ever really thought he'd do anything. Well Stork had to slay hwasin and Savior lost to Mondragon/Pj (even with map imbalance favoring Savior vs Mondragon). Stork struggled with WhiteRa and his own lack of intelligence. The key issue here is none of them really looked untouchable. Stork turned it on in the finals but he very well could have been caught with his pants down due to his pride/arrogance against WhiteRa. That was then though. I would argue that Korea save for Flash lacks the super weapon they have had in the past. That being said players of Flash's level aren't even guranteed to make it out. Players like Boxer, Nada and others have in their prime failed to make a WCG (note: yes they HAVE quali'd but they have also failed). Korean WCG is a crackpot. Their level ofplay has evened out so a clear winner is almost impossible to predict. Even if you disagree you would have to agree that at the very least their is a better chance this year that at least 1 maybe 2 will sneak in that nobody would suspect. Don't agree? State 2-3 players you can give a strong percentage to that would make it this year. Jaedong, Flash and Mind would seem like nice picks huh? Just watch.
Lastly, the gaming level of non koreans is higher than it ever has been. I would argue, even in relation to koreans. We have never been closer to their skill (since koreans "took off" which is post 1999~2000 or so). Mondragon is in his best shape of recent history and with TSL backing into WCG I would contend his previous 3rd place finish would only act as a motivator for the ultimate prize now being a realistic goal for him. Draco has proven that at the drop of a hat he can retake the throne as one of the most dominant players and I think even he will be hard pressed to avoid this WCG given the shape he is in. Ret is one of the best foreigners. His TvZ and ZvT make him a real threat against anyone. Given more time and tougher training (TOT) he will be even more scary. Strelok/WhiteRa have never been as good as they are now. Especially Strelok, he just won ASUS (Debut) and is winning tourneys almost weekly. I could go on but my point is that the foreigner gaming base is not consolidated into a Testie, Mondragon, Draco but rather spread out with Dreiven, Nony, JF, Strelok, Mondragon etc etc being all around that level we have more players of that potential with MORE of a chance to take advantage of a easy bracket or a arrogant korean (note: this does not mean koreans are arrogant but rather they may have never heard of a "nony" and then suddenly they are down a game and have to climb back up vs a confident top tier protoss who has trained like a boxer for the past 6 months). We also have a player in korea training with IdrA. He will be participating in USA WCG and if he doesn't make it out that just means the level of gaming HERE is so high that even the token white professional couldn't hack it with the level being so high. I think he very well could but this is just a signifier of either way, it being a good thing for us as a community.
My prediction is completely speculative and only serves the purpose of 1. establishing my prediction so I can look like a genius when it comes true and 2. start a discussion.
1. Two of the top 3 in WCG will be non-koreans. Big woop? We had that happen this year. Sure, but I am predicting what nobody did last year and I think a repeat will be more epic.
2. For the first time a WCG winner will be from a country that isn't Korea.
3.This will be the last WCG with SCBW on the ticket. Korea will have to sit and stew on their greatest defeat.
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I agree with 1 and 3; however, not 2.
Nice article incontrol.
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Canada7170 Posts
#3 makes me sad.
This is a very bold prediction. I think it is very possible, but I don't have the balls to explicitly predict it. I still think Korea will take gold.
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As long as there's a broodwar proleaguein korea it think broodwar still has a shot to be played in wcg 09'. ( i mean free medals for korea is always good right?...)
korean organizers.
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woah, I was about to make a similar thread o_o
I agree 100%, there is a high chance that a non-korean will win this time around. I'll elaborate more later.
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And what happens if this theory is completely mauled?
haha
but yeah i couldn't agree with you more. Every foreigner is just simply fucking good these days, monstrously. it brings tears to my eyes.
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can flash go to WCG?, well i think it depends on the koreans progamers they sent.
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On May 19 2008 12:22 mikeymoo wrote:
#3 makes me sad.
With you arguing, it makes it seem like it's obvious that it's going to happen. >.>
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Isnt this said every year?... Sure we might be stronger then before but if the koreans care to practice we srill wil be stomped ..
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Stork was throwing the games vs Ra.
I have to disagree here Inc. Looking at how a guy like Idra is struggling (one of the top foreign players right now) suggests a standard Korea win.
I'll agree that there is a greater chance of a foreigner doing something abnormal (i.e winning), but my money is still on whoever the Koreans send.
I hope a foreigner wins, but I doubt it's going to happen.
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4. Once TSL takes off, no one will care about WCG. :p
I hope you're right about 1&2.
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Very interesting read incontrol. And I do have a gut feeling that this could be the year a non-korean wins the BW championship.
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If Flash qualifies, I can't see anyone stopping him. Elite foreign Terrans are harder to come by. It will be much harder for foreigners to prepare themselves for a monster terran.
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lol
yeah if they send flash it is sort of like an instant win right now.
no seriously don't fuck with flash right now, you don't want to be that man.
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United States42568 Posts
You make a good argument and I agree with most the points. However, while everything is in our favour, you simply cannot argue with skill. They have more of it. I believe this'll be the closest WCG I've seen but I do not believe we will win.
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i have a feeling they'll take away sc too, even though sc drew the biggest crowds every day in seattle
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
I hope flash comes to WCG so we get to see some of his reps. I want to know the secret behind his monstrosity.
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United States20661 Posts
On May 19 2008 13:26 infinity21 wrote:
I hope flash comes to WCG so we get to see some of his reps. I want to know the secret behind his monstrosity.
What if Flash = X
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i realy hope BW does not leave WCG yet!
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The only thing that really "went wrong" with last year's monster Korea lineup was the epic Savior debacle in which he lost to PJ. This was an incredible failure on the Maestro's part, but it has been OVEREMPHASIZED significantly due to the fact that it's Savior, who in his prime put together arguably the greatest year of dominance ever (at least, it's the only true year and a half of dominance post Oov's macro-revolution).
Yeah, some Koreans dropped games here and there to foreigners - this has happened almost every year, no?
Yeah, Hwasin didn't make it very far ... oh wait, he lost to Stork, who did still win.
Yeah, Stork lost to White-Ra. But, with all due respect to White-Ra, does anyone think he's really anywhere near as good as Stork? Watch the most recent games on TSL, and then watch some of Stork's textbook (ie NOT during a final) Protoss play games where you see near-perfect mechanics and execution. White-Ra is a great player but Stork, as much as we all love to hate on his inability to come through in the finals, is now one of the greatest Protoss players in SC history (easily top 10, arguably top 5).
I think you might be right with your 3 predictions. I'm just pointing out that I don't think last year's WCG was as big of a deal as we often like to make of it, mostly thanks to Savior.
Also, I would actually venture to argue that the top 2 players in Korea right now are actually more clear cut than they were last year, which means they have a better chance to advance. Them being Flash and Jaedong of course. Both of these guys are battle-tested, have ridiculous mechanics that no foreigner is even close to, and are vicious killers who in my opinion do a better job of jumping on opponents' mistakes than Savior and Stork did (at least in the state they were in at last year's WCG).
If the WCG was today and Flash and Jaedong were in it, I would bet neither would lose a game to any foreigner and would unfairly make foreign players look far inferior to the Koreans (when in reality this is no longer true anymore). Luck and timing both play a big role in perspective.
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Your points make sense, and I could see them happening (depending on who they send, of course). However, I hope 3 isn't true 
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
Man I was going to say it was an optimistic opinion column until I read the last sentence.
This will be the last WCG with SCBW on the ticket.
Incontrol you bastage, you ruined my Sunday. Many of us have feared the removal of Brood War in WCG so the surprise reminder just gave me the heebeegeebees. May all your predictions bite the dust if only to kill that last one.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On May 19 2008 13:33 Last Romantic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2008 13:26 infinity21 wrote:
I hope flash comes to WCG so we get to see some of his reps. I want to know the secret behind his monstrosity. What if Flash = X
That's so easy. Nada will qualify for WCG as well and all we have to do is ask the author of that sc comic for an alternate ending.
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On May 19 2008 13:33 Last Romantic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2008 13:26 infinity21 wrote:
I hope flash comes to WCG so we get to see some of his reps. I want to know the secret behind his monstrosity. What if Flash = X
Then clearly Brat_OK must defeat him in place of NaDa
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as much as we'd all like to see an upset, I think your only real valid arguing point is the latency, which we'll take your word for since you have experience in that regard.
Korea is stagnating? Your evidence is that Savior lost a few games last year. Well, Josez beat Boxer. Froz beat Boxer twice. Blackman beat Odyssay. Hellghost beat H.O.T. Silent Control got embarrassed by Testie and Androide. These upsets happen all the time and pretty much every year. So far, nothing has come of it in terms of the big winner. I don't see why this year is any different.
Level of non-koreans at its peak? Of course it is. Why wouldn't it get better every year? Yes, there are some new names. That's just the nature of gaming. Are Drieven, Nony, etc. really any more skilled than Fisheye, Nazgul, Elky, etc. with respect to the Korean best during their heydays?
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Why does broodwar need to leave wcg, thats total bullshit.
Even when starcraft 2 comes out, bw will still have a bigger base than half the games there
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
#3 is utterly depressing
i hate you incontrol
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I think that 1-2-3 place is only hapenned in 2006? Am i right? And even that domination, oov lost to draco in ro8 first game, midas lost twice in group stages. The accidents could happen but i think that, a random set of 3 progamer would still have %98 chance to win WCG.
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I forgot about the LAN Latency. When I notice that the TSL replays look like semi-pro games I thought it was just the quality of the players. LAN setting makes a HUGEEE difference.
MasterOfChaos deserves to be include in Starcraft wikipedia for his Latency Changer. It's revolutionary because it finally allows people to play at their fullest potential with people around the world instead of limiting to LAN.
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hrm.......................................................naaaaaa
lol, 99% of koreans knows what starcraft is. they have 2 T.V. channels broadcasting sc 24/7. what do foreigners have? false hopes and dreams thats wat. dream on though, it doesn't hurt.
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United States10774 Posts
On May 19 2008 14:04 radar14 wrote:
as much as we'd all like to see an upset, I think your only real valid arguing point is the latency, which we'll take your word for since you have experience in that regard.
Korea is stagnating? Your evidence is that Savior lost a few games last year. Well, Josez beat Boxer. Froz beat Boxer twice. Blackman beat Odyssay. Hellghost beat H.O.T. Silent Control got embarrassed by Testie and Androide. These upsets happen all the time and pretty much every year. So far, nothing has come of it in terms of the big winner. I don't see why this year is any different.
Level of non-koreans at its peak? Of course it is. Why wouldn't it get better every year? Yes, there are some new names. That's just the nature of gaming. Are Drieven, Nony, etc. really any more skilled than Fisheye, Nazgul, Elky, etc. with respect to the Korean best during their heydays?
my thoughts. good post radar14. seeing a foreigner win WCG for the first time would be cool, but is the latency really enough?
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On May 19 2008 13:18 Kwark wrote:
You make a good argument and I agree with most the points. However, while everything is in our favour, you simply cannot argue with skill. They have more of it. I believe this'll be the closest WCG I've seen but I do not believe we will win.
I have to agree here, i think the koreans are peaking skill wise, or damn close to playing perfect starcraft, we are not really as close to that, and i don't think we will get close to that for a damn long time at this rate, foreign starcraft hasn't adapted aswel as the kroeans, not by a long shot.
China is close, if they step it up and become more dominant and profession then maybe just maybe a chinese person will win, but i don't know about a european or american. Maybe if china somehow didn't have shit lag issues becuae of their great ass firewall. But either way, maybe if they send an all protoss line up and we just have mondragon kill them all.
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On May 19 2008 12:21 Showtime! wrote:
I agree with 1 and 3; however, not 2.
Nice article incontrol.
How could 3 be true and not 2?
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Bold and Speculative is right, Just wait, the koreans have developed a perfect gamer training him with
1.ee han timing since he was a litle kid, cooking something for 3 minutes in the microwave and not letting him eat it unless he got up 1-5 seconds before the timer went off, otherwise he'd have to repeat it and it would be burned.
2. By cutting off his ... stuff, because your length is obviously inversely proportional to your ability to own at star craft.
3. finger steroids!!
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First of all this is a really nice read Geoff. Unfortunately I don't agree with everything you wrote. But this doesn't mean that you are wrong obviously. I'm not an oracle.
You wrote that the given maps favor foreigners over koreans which I think is simply not true. We obviously play maps progamers play. We play lots of games on Python, Blue Storm, Tau Cross, Peaks and Gaia where Gaia probably is the only map that progamers are not common with. (given the fact a progamer advances to WCG who hasn't in the past 3 years)
Probably the fact that makes you think the maps favor us is the fact that koreans have to train on newer maps and totally ignoring the old(er) WCG maps, but I can guarantee that the koreans have played Python, Blue Storm, Tau Cross and Peaks to no end. They know every single build order you can pull off and they probably know everything about these maps.
On the other hand I agree with you, the foreign level is higher than it ever was. I won't say I believe any foreigner can take a macro game from a korean progamer, but its unlikely that a top foreigner (i.e. Nony) cannot take a game with a little bit of an advantage he gains in early game.
As you mention the key nations with their strong players like ret and HayprO just for example I think this will give "us" (most likely good players, because I don't think ret or HayprO are going to train with average players) a good possibility to prepare for the World Cyber Games 2008. Unfortunately I think its just not enough of preparation to beat the koreans in a Best of 3 or Best of 5. (The final is best of 5 this time?)
Players who could accomplish something I'd say are most likely: Nony, IdrA, Mondragon, White-rA, Draco. So for me we have 3 Protoss, 1 Zerg and 1 Terran which are a threat to the koreans. Unfortunately the korean level is rising too. Not just foreigners are getting better. The real advantage that we get is the mentioned training of the new maps from korean progamers. They have to train the new maps non stop to reach their goal. To win a starleague. There is no more important tournament in Korea and I bet winning a starleague is still more important to them than winning an international tourney like the World Cyber Games. I'm not saying they just go with the attitude to "lets see how far I come" but they are for sure not practicing like for a starleague. For example in starleagues they have a lot of time to prepare for one special opponent on 5 special maps. Here they have no time to prepare or really not much time to prepare for their opponent they probably don't even know. This could give "us" an edge.
Last but not least you mentioned that the Lan Latency gives us an advantage. Not an advantage over koreans, but an advantage in general because we are getting used to no-latency games which is good for offline tourneys, obviously. I agree with you. Lan Latency is a great tool and we can archive a alot mechanics with it. Most of the time (you will agree) when you played usual battle.net games and switched to hamachi (not too common for about.. 2 years or so) your macro and micro were totally off, because you just were not used to the more liquid gameplay. Now we are used to that. Even though a real LAN game is even more liquid than a Lan Latency game.
Now I'd like to predict myself based on your predictions:
1) It really depends on who Korea sends. I don't say if Flash, Stork and for example Jaedong are coming they are unbeatable. I actually did think sAviOr , HwaSin and Stork were pretty much unbeatable to that time, but they failed. This is probably not just because they were too cocky more like because the foreign level has improved by far. HwaSin didn't fail vs a foreigner though.
I'd say if Flash, Mind and probably Jaedong coming its unlikely that 2 foreigners will be in the top 3, but its still far away from impossible.
2) WCG will be won by a foreigner. No, I cleary disagree. I don't think there's a way for a foreigner to win in the finals. Not because of the lack of skill, but more like the nerves. Koreans are used to play in finals (at least a lot of them) and they are used to play in big offline events with a huge audience. Probably with NonY vs Stork in the finals Stork will choke and gets the silver like at home.. in Korea. But I really can't imagine a foreigner taking gold, which again does not mean it won't happen!
3) I'm really surprised you actually predict that this will be the last time we see Broodwar in the World Cyber Games. World Cyber games proofed to be really solid and they will test Starcraft 2 before they add it to the WCG. Probably we will see Broodwar and Starcraft 2, but we won't see Starcraft 2 right after it is released. Thats my guess. There will be a next time we see Broodwar at the World Cyber Games.
I hope my post isn't offending anyone. If I didn't mention a top player its just that he didn't was in my mind when I wrote this, so I apologize beforehand. I'd be happy to read other opinions on what I wrote.
Edit: An admin move that please to featured threads or make it sticky, its really an awesome thing to discuss  !
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On May 19 2008 13:46 Physician wrote:
Incontrol you bastage
What a bastage.
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stork was doing amazingly stupid build vs white ra and whoever else.
he was definitely throwing games to try and set up the brackets for a 1,2,3 korean victory.
As for savior, well PJ is (certainly was at the time) one of the best foreign players, and savior was well into his slump.
Korea could send stork or jaedong or bisu or lux or mind
they dont have to send flash to win.
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Probably we will see Broodwar and Starcraft 2, but we won't see Starcraft 2 right after it is released.
A LOT of new games are added right after they are released.. of course this will happen with Starcraft II.
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On May 19 2008 12:46 SonuvBob wrote:
4. Once TSL takes off, no one will care about WCG. :p
not even close
if TSL is still around next year then it will certainly help ease some of the pain though. *some*
PS. i know you probably only intended for this to be taken 50% seriously
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On May 19 2008 16:07 a-game wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2008 12:46 SonuvBob wrote:
4. Once TSL takes off, no one will care about WCG. :p
not even close if TSL is still around next year then it will certainly help ease some of the pain though. *some*
I find your lack of faith disturbing!
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Well my view is this. If this is/could be the last WCG for starcraft i hope that:
a) Every good foreigner practise for this event like crazy to make it one hell of a show
b) All who attend the event prepare something big to show our respect and love for the game (signs / go batshit crazy with cheers and screams / a big ass banner?)
c) Keep it a secret to the koreans that it could be the last wcg for starcraft :D
All in all whoever wins we should really pump some tought into this and end the wcg with a bang.
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I really don't see how you think foreigners are closing the gap.
Pros still practice 5 times as much, and the pro skill level seems to me to be increasing with no sign of stopping. The top 5-10 foreign players have stayed the same for years, while the top 5-10 pros are constantly changing. Although the TSL has been great, the overall skill gap is still very evident in my mind.
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On May 19 2008 16:16 H_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2008 16:07 a-game wrote:On May 19 2008 12:46 SonuvBob wrote:
4. Once TSL takes off, no one will care about WCG. :p
not even close if TSL is still around next year then it will certainly help ease some of the pain though. *some* I find your lack of faith disturbing!
haha, sorry. i got lots of faith in our boys - but murphy's law has taught me to never count my chickens before they hatch
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Depends on the players, obviously. I don't think any foreigner can even come close to touching Jaedong and Flash right now.
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#1 is very possible like we have seen from last year.
#3 might also be the truth, since no one actually knows how the reaction will be with SC2
However I disagree with #2 since a korean has won the WCG every single time so far and people have been saying before that "a foreigner will win this year". However it hasn't happened and I don't see it happening this year either.
Oh and if someone like Flash goes to WCG theres a good chance he will utterly destroy every foreigner in his path
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I disagree with #2. Koreans will dominate just like every other year. No matter how close the gap may seem it is still pretty wide. Although it is a BO3 so i guess anything can happen.
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Sure, there might be upsets, but it won't prove what some of us may be really hoping -- that some foreigners can play at the level of progamers in Korea. Would any foreigner consistently beat any progamer? I highly doubt that PJ would beat Savior in a bo5 (maybe not at his current slump though, O_O my confidence in savior is no more). Besides, when PJ beat savior, wasn't it on old maps that savior probably hadn't practiced for ages? If some foreigner were to win the WCG, it'd be a very rare event with a exponentially small probability. The training and attention that progamers get do not compare to foreigner experience.
The thing about latency changer -- sure, foreigners have had more practice on LAN games, but does that make that much of a difference vs. progamers? Progamers practice on LAN 24-7. If anything, they'll be like "finally I can play an opponent who can micro". It may give foreigners an edge, but to progamers that edge won't make them even flinch.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
Listen people need to stop saying names of korean progamers and go "they could never lose." We have had said level gamers and they have all lost at least a game. I am arguing factors that are increasing the propensity for these events to happen which in my arguments leads to the greatest evidence of a foreigner champion. People can say "this has been predicted before" all they want but that is not refuting my unique arguments for why this is a special time, not just a random assertion by some ignorant person.
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losing a game is one thing
losing a series is another
I just dont see it happening this year, there is still too big a gap in mechanics
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how did this become a featured thread
but the topic is really making me look forward to WCG this year. I think foreigner's play has picked up greatly, but so too has Koreans. I'd say the odds are very much in the Koreans' favor
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I think incontrol knows what he's talking about.
The first step though is getting rid of this preconception about the skill difference. I think if foreigners prepare correctly it will work.
TSL is also lowering the nervousness issue.
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they shud just send the top 3 players, and guarentee the wcg gold,  Flash,  Stork,  Jaedong
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Great article!
If surely the general gaming level has increased, this won't mean that we would have players able to fight the Korean. I personally think that Draco and Mondragon will be the only guys who could counter the Korean players unless mass gaming in Korean allow Idra to come up with what he hasn't showed yet -> talent. But i doubt he will.
Draco was one of the best non korean before Korea, now he is the absolute best P outside there and likely the best non korean gamer in general. He is showing his ridiculous superiority in TSL (sorry White-ra i love you too but he was just kidding vs you in the recent serie), none can really counter him and this will be clear to everyone once he beat Nony and then IF/Brat. His gaming abilities are just too much for everyone else.
Other non korean hopes i believe are in Mondragon, who beside losing unexpecteddly to Dreiven has still a great potential, especially in an era where there are so many P players.
Strelok and the other guys are really good players but you can't cope with people who does this for living. Only one of "us" can, the one who did this for living for at least 6 months, read Krzysztof Draco Nalepka.
I saw his face after loosing in the last 2 WGC final and i tell you one thing, this won't happen again. The polish will begin his redemption winning the TSL.
Anyway, i agree with you as far as the two will be Draco and Mondi.
The FLAGS of our game! ;-)
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I do not know but i think if a foreigner to win the wcg, i will pick JF, Draco is well known in korea imo, they won't underestimate him but i'm pretty sure that they did not know anything about JF.
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If an upset is going to happen at WCG, there has to be some ridiculous brackets going on. Something like... Korean #1 meeting Korean #2 meeting each other early on and then Korean #3 knocking out Korean #2 in semi finals.
And THEN the only foreigners I believe have a real chance of taking a Bo3 are JF, Draco, Mondragon and Nony, This is all assuming of course that they don't send Flash or Jaedong.
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On May 19 2008 17:37 SouL.EateR wrote:they shud just send the top 3 players, and guarentee the wcg gold, Flash, Stork, Jaedong
I have to agree....
Stork took gold last year.... Jaedong ran over Stork after WCG, and Flash ran over Jaedong....
I dont think any non Korean gamer can beat Stork in finals, and I think there is NO WAY any non Korean gamer can beat Jaedong or Flash.....
If they take 1 game from flash, they can be veeeery happy...... Kid is just TOO good........ Last 17 games he played, he lost only 2. He raped Stork, Bisu, Anytime, Jaedong, and many others.....
Last WCG Koreans showed dominance..... when we were looking their games, we could see the difference. And after that WCG, Jaedong and Flash raised the level of games even higher......
Good luck............
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On May 19 2008 14:31 [X]Ken_D wrote:
I forgot about the LAN Latency. When I notice that the TSL replays look like semi-pro games I thought it was just the quality of the players. LAN setting makes a HUGEEE difference.
MasterOfChaos deserves to be include in Starcraft wikipedia for his Latency Changer. It's revolutionary because it finally allows people to play at their fullest potential with people around the world instead of limiting to LAN.
i agree about how awesome moc is but i disagree about the replays looking like semi-pros. Korean amateurs yes but semi-pro is stretching it.
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On May 19 2008 22:05 2BearqLoza wrote:Last WCG Koreans showed dominance..... when we were looking their games, we could see the difference. And after that WCG, Jaedong and Flash raised the level of games even higher...... Good luck............
Wat? Imo, koreans struggled hardest in WCG 2007, Pj vs Savior, Stork is about to lose 2nd game in final, as Pj attacked really poorly in his natural, only 1 Korean in Semi-Final, i am pretty sure that this is not a dominance.
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On May 19 2008 22:05 2BearqLoza wrote:I have to agree.... Stork took gold last year.... Jaedong ran over Stork after WCG, and Flash ran over Jaedong.... I dont think any non Korean gamer can beat Stork in finals, and I think there is NO WAY any non Korean gamer can beat Jaedong or Flash..... If they take 1 game from flash, they can be veeeery happy...... Kid is just TOO good........ Last 17 games he played, he lost only 2. He raped Stork, Bisu, Anytime, Jaedong, and many others..... Last WCG Koreans showed dominance..... when we were looking their games, we could see the difference. And after that WCG, Jaedong and Flash raised the level of games even higher...... Good luck............
Still some time before WCG and latest results show that none of the Korean (after the Savior era) managed to perform consistent results for too long.
Moreover, WCG Korean qualifications are even harder than the final WCG phase itself, so not always the best 3 koreans make it trought. Outsider are always possible and i am sure there will be surprises!
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Koreans are just getting better and better, more professional and professional.
Also, I doubt there will be no SC BW on WCG. They have 4 RTS games right now. Which 4 are better than SC?
SC2? It still needs the expansion first and then a year to mature. That could take 3 more years. It's not even released yet. And even in 3 years, which 3 RTSes will push out SC? Hell, it's very questionable if SC2 itself will actually be better than SC.
Not that SC is so good but game companies are just too scared to make RTS games focussed on serious multiplayer play. As shown by that comment of the DoW designer.
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On May 19 2008 15:12 Seraphim wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2008 12:21 Showtime! wrote:
I agree with 1 and 3; however, not 2.
Nice article incontrol. How could 3 be true and not 2?
Read a few posts above. There will always be 'upsets' at the WCG. If you look at most WCG brackets you'll notice that before the finals two Korean players have to face off against one another :. taking out one of their fellow countrymen before it is all said and done. I believe this will occur in the second stage. In the finals we're likely to see either jaedong or flash if the prelims were to be played right now, but then again the Korean prelims are one of the hardest 'tests' because it used to be Bo1, so anything can and will happen. WCG final is a best of series as well. I simply don't see a foreigner taking the prize, but their is a possibility that someone will do what PJ did by knocking out the lesser Korean in the bronze medal match.
All this speculation comes down to the opening brackets.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On May 19 2008 22:52 BlackStar wrote:
Koreans are just getting better and better, more professional and professional.
Also, I doubt there will be no SC BW on WCG. They have 4 RTS games right now. Which 4 are better than SC?
SC2? It still needs the expansion first and then a year to mature. That could take 3 more years. It's not even released yet. And even in 3 years, which 3 RTSes will push out SC? Hell, it's very questionable if SC2 itself will actually be better than SC.
Not that SC is so good but game companies are just too scared to make RTS games focussed on serious multiplayer play. As shown by that comment of the DoW designer. Im pretty sure WCG will remove SC in favor of the $$ SC2 will provide
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They had C&C3 locked in as a game many months before it's release, so I don't see why they won't do the same for SC2
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Am I the only one who just doesnt care if they remove BW from WCG? WCG seems quite poorly run, especially compared to TSL. And with all the new crap games they keep adding to WCG its just turning into a joke.
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Hyopthetically speaking (this is what I perceive to be the most likely outcome):
Flash, Jaedong and Bisu qualify from Korea.
Looking at the best foreign players now we have something like:
T: Strelok, Brat_ok, Idra, A2 etc
P: Naij, Nony, Draco, Ra etc
Z: Mondragon, Dinot, Gosia, Haypro
Can anyone honestly see players like Jaedong, Bisu, Flash losing a series to these guys? It's one thing to take a game, but to lose a series would be big.
Looking and hearing from Idra, he is struggling (as you would expect) and is yet to even pass courage. Draco was in Korea for around a year (give or take) and did little more than pass courage (which is an achievement in itself).
Draco and Idra are examples of top foreigners who have struggled to compete in the semi-pro, let alone pro arena of Starcraft.
I think you are underestimating the cream of the crop of Korean BW Inc. Top foreign players have proven themselves to struggle vs the Korean semi-pros let alone the big boys.
They have better mechanics, skills, experience, training facilities and are professionals who are paid to be successful at Starcraft.
Does anyone honestly see a foreigner taking down the cream of Korean BW? There hasn't been a foreigner compete at the top since Elky and I don't see that changing.
I think Savior underestimated PJ and the foreigners in general last year, but he was already in the midst of a sharp decline. Stork was clearly trying to rig the brackets when he lost vs Ra. He wanetd to avoid playing Hwasin early in the ro16, but unfortunantely for him so did Ex and Ra (we all remember the ridiculous merry-go-round antics that went on).
Stork ripped easily thourgh the ro16 brackets when he had to.
Foreign players may have Lan to train on, but they don't come close to the same facilities the Korean players have. They don't have dedicated players of very high caliber to help them train.
Honestly, the only thing that I agree with your post is the map issue. But even in acknowledging that, it's not as though the Kor players are unfamiliar with these maps. Gaia is the only non Starleague map meaning the Kor players have all trained extensively on maps like Tau and Peaks. They may be a tad rusty, but they'll still remember the optimal builds and timing. I'm not even sure this is a real advantage here. Maybe slightly, but not enough to sway a series to a foreigner.
I don't think Korea has stagnated. The Korean WCG has changed from the days where retards like Ogogo would qualify (and he still won even though he wasn't anywhere near the top of Korean BW). They've changed the system as you know, so there's a much greater likelyhood the best pros will be sent (based on Kespa rankings).
Anyone of the Kespa top 30 players are much better players than the top foreigners. I know everyone is feeling the foreigner love atm with TSL, but honestly, it's going to play out the same way it does every year. There will be a few surprise games where a foreigner snipes a win, but I'll make my own BOLD prediction: A Korean player will win WCG 100%.
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On May 20 2008 02:13 RowdierBob wrote:
Hyopthetically speaking (this is what I perceive to be the most likely outcome):
Flash, Jaedong and Bisu qualify from Korea.
Looking at the best foreign players now we have something like:
T: Strelok, Brat_ok, Idra, A2 etc
P: Naij, Nony, Draco, Ra etc
Z: Mondragon, Dinot, Gosia, Haypro
Can anyone honestly see players like Jaedong, Bisu, Flash losing a series to these guys? It's one thing to take a game, but to lose a series would be big.
Looking and hearing from Idra, he is struggling (as you would expect) and is yet to even pass courage. Draco was in Korea for around a year (give or take) and did little more than pass courage (which is an achievement in itself).
Draco and Idra are examples of top foreigners who have struggled to compete in the semi-pro, let alone pro arena of Starcraft.
I think you are underestimating the cream of the crop of Korean BW Inc. Top foreign players have proven themselves to struggle vs the Korean semi-pros let alone the big boys.
They have better mechanics, skills, experience, training facilities and are professionals who are paid to be successful at Starcraft.
Does anyone honestly see a foreigner taking down the cream of Korean BW? There hasn't been a foreigner compete at the top since Elky and I don't see that changing.
I think Savior underestimated PJ and the foreigners in general last year, but he was already in the midst of a sharp decline. Stork was clearly trying to rig the brackets when he lost vs Ra. He wanetd to avoid playing Hwasin early in the ro16, but unfortunantely for him so did Ex and Ra (we all remember the ridiculous merry-go-round antics that went on).
Stork ripped easily thourgh the ro16 brackets when he had to.
Foreign players may have Lan to train on, but they don't come close to the same facilities the Korean players have. They don't have dedicated players of very high caliber to help them train.
Honestly, the only thing that I agree with your post is the map issue. But even in acknowledging that, it's not as though the Kor players are unfamiliar with these maps. Gaia is the only non Starleague map meaning the Kor players have all trained extensively on maps like Tau and Peaks. They may be a tad rusty, but they'll still remember the optimal builds and timing. I'm not even sure this is a real advantage here. Maybe slightly, but not enough to sway a series to a foreigner.
I don't think Korea has stagnated. The Korean WCG has changed from the days where retards like Ogogo would qualify (and he still won even though he wasn't anywhere near the top of Korean BW). They've changed the system as you know, so there's a much greater likelyhood the best pros will be sent (based on Kespa rankings).
Anyone of the Kespa top 30 players are much better players than the top foreigners. I know everyone is feeling the foreigner love atm with TSL, but honestly, it's going to play out the same way it does every year. There will be a few surprise games where a foreigner snipes a win, but I'll make my own BOLD prediction: A Korean player will win WCG 100%.
Draco didn't pass courage. Otherwise read my post on page 3 and you will see that I mostly agree.
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What he said.
Keep in mind, it usually takes players a few years before they see any results while taking up residence in the pro gamer houses. There is a lot to it.
Draco is far from the level of the low tier pro gamers.
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Don't you have to pass courage to play the MSL/OSL offline prelims?
Or did Draco get special permission?
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On May 20 2008 02:55 RowdierBob wrote:
Don't you have to pass courage to play the MSL/OSL offline prelims?
Or did Draco get special permission?
Draco got the a progamer license of eStro like PJ and LX from SKTelecomT1.
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Your point about foreign players' improvements sound exactly like what's been said before every WCG in the last few years.
I think the one thing foreigners have going for them's that with everyone's play, foreigners and Koreans, increasing, specially prepared builds become more and more important and obviously the foreigners will have the much better preparation.
When is WCG Korea by the way?
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On May 19 2008 22:15 Ilikestarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2008 14:31 [X]Ken_D wrote:
I forgot about the LAN Latency. When I notice that the TSL replays look like semi-pro games I thought it was just the quality of the players. LAN setting makes a HUGEEE difference.
MasterOfChaos deserves to be include in Starcraft wikipedia for his Latency Changer. It's revolutionary because it finally allows people to play at their fullest potential with people around the world instead of limiting to LAN. i agree about how awesome moc is but i disagree about the replays looking like semi-pros. Korean amateurs yes but semi-pro is stretching it.
unfortunately i have to agree here. some of the games like dreiven vs mondi looked really almost like semi-pro level but on the other hand series like gosia vs nony... I am willing to bet that you could take any online practice partner of korean pro teams and put him up in that series, he would have raped the other person silly. And dont tell me that nonys pvz is that strong, yeah it maybe strong against foreigners, but It would crumble like a cookie to any korean semi-pro/practice partner Z.
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I predict places 1-3 go to Korea, places 4-XX will be divided among the newb nations.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On May 20 2008 04:08 Orome wrote:
Your point about foreign players' improvements sound exactly like what's been said before every WCG in the last few years.
I think the one thing foreigners have going for them's that with everyone's play, foreigners and Koreans, increasing, specially prepared builds become more and more important and obviously the foreigners will have the much better preparation.
When is WCG Korea by the way?
How the hell can you say that? We have never had chaos/ICCUP with chaos. That is unique to THIS timeframe not years past. And players have improved each year true, but not with the added bonus of chaos plugin. You are missing some pretty important factors here.
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FConnectionUK
United States316 Posts
On May 20 2008 05:09 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2008 04:08 Orome wrote:
Your point about foreign players' improvements sound exactly like what's been said before every WCG in the last few years.
I think the one thing foreigners have going for them's that with everyone's play, foreigners and Koreans, increasing, specially prepared builds become more and more important and obviously the foreigners will have the much better preparation.
When is WCG Korea by the way? How the hell can you say that? We have never had chaos/ICCUP with chaos. That is unique to THIS timeframe not years past. And players have improved each year true, but not with the added bonus of chaos plugin. You are missing some pretty important factors here.
I agree that LAN setting is one of the aspect that has been changed/improved. However, that only put top foreigners in the same shoe as in Korean Team B members at best. Korean B teams are also perfectly capable of pulling of amazing micro like of the top players. What they lack is reading the circumstances as fast and efficiently as the team A members. Also let's not forget the experience factor. For Koreans, the big stage is a non-factor. They are so used to the big stages. However, for top foreigners to be put into spot light in this grand scale of publicity, we cannot gaurantee what type of performance we will see. It could be great... or not.
Possibility of a top foreigner winning the wcg has increased a ton. Maybe 10% to 35%? Big increase, but won't really affect anything in the big picture.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
In the past without this factor koreans have lost to top gamers. It happens every year. With additional factors that close the gap between said gamers wer see an increased propensity for what has already happened to happen at an increased frequency. My prediction is unique and has factors based in a reality we live each day.
People stating "they have hours upon hours of training with other pros" need to realize this is non unique. They have had that each year. We gained something that we didnt have in years past while they have gained nothing. That is unique to now. I cannot wait for this to click with some of you.
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Bold and speculative indeed. I'm inclined to agree with you, simply because I want to see it happen (except for #3 of course ).
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lol you can dream on all you like. Korea gets fresh blood every year that are true monsters. They build on their experiences year by year. That's not something that gets overcome by latency.
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I think that that whether or not a foreigner takes the number one slot is largely dependent on who Korea sends. If sAvior, Hwsain, and Nal_Ra all go to WCG, then we have a legitimate chance of taking a series off of them - they won't practice up for their matches and it's plausible that 3 series later we could have semi finals between foreigners.
But with the OSL, MSL, and Proleague being played they are, the quality of play has been really good these seasons. If Flash or Jaedong get sent to WCG I say that we, the foreign community, doesn't stand a chance.
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I saw a game a few days ago where some new kid who'd never been on TV before took a match and nearly the bo3 from Flash in the gomtv classic.
He's my favorite player, but he's far from undefeatable.
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3 Lions
United States3705 Posts
korea takes gold, silver, and bronze
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I cant beleive the semi finals and final are bo3 and not bo5, wtf is up with this?
I hope we will see more foreigners at WCG in the top 3.
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Rather naive predictions save the last one.
If you watch several episodes of "Battlenet Attack" or "I Love Star", you'll probably catch top gamers losing to random gamers with their off-races and from time to time with their main race. Whatever the excuses may be, progamers had trouble keeping a clean record against random Stacraft enthusiasts for a meager ten games or so. Stork in particular went under the spotlight when he lost comprehensively against a no name terran player on Longinus (a protoss haven).
That's not all. GoRush and Xellos are students at my school and they attend school festivities every once a while. They used to play against the top players in our school for fun. Would you believe it if I said that GoRush was soundly beaten by a engineer student on his favourite map Luna two years ago when he was still a top player?
The gap between amateurs and progamers in general got smaller. Progamers are not untouchable. And people who make it to WCG are very good amateur players. Progamers WILL drop some games at the WCG (like they did every year) and some unfortunate progamer might have to face the humiliation of being eliminated by an amateur (it too happened almost every year).
So what's new? Progamers do lose to good amateur players under the right circumstances. That's not enough for a non-Korean to get the WCG Gold though. Name me a non-Korean capable of winning the entire competition. And I don't mean players capable to taking a game off progamers or maybe even twice in a BO3 on a good day. If you can't, the chances of a non-Korean winning the the entire competition will be the same as before: minimal. You might as well predict Rock finishing first place this OSL.
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On May 19 2008 22:22 Hyperionnn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2008 22:05 2BearqLoza wrote:On May 19 2008 17:37 SouL.EateR wrote:they shud just send the top 3 players, and guarentee the wcg gold, Flash, Stork, Jaedong Last WCG Koreans showed dominance..... when we were looking their games, we could see the difference. And after that WCG, Jaedong and Flash raised the level of games even higher...... Good luck............ Wat? Imo, koreans struggled hardest in WCG 2007, Pj vs Savior, Stork is about to lose 2nd game in final, as Pj attacked really poorly in his natural, only 1 Korean in Semi-Final, i am pretty sure that this is not a dominance.
Savior is playing very bad since Blizzcon, and overall, Koreans did dominate.
Yes, it is true that Koreans arent consistant and all, but I cant think of a way any non Korean can take 2 games from Flash, or Jaedong, or many many others.....
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On May 20 2008 07:36 katona wrote:
I saw a game a few days ago where some new kid who'd never been on TV before took a match and nearly the bo3 from Flash in the gomtv classic.
He's my favorite player, but he's far from undefeatable.
And yet again... that new kid............is Korean...............
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On May 20 2008 05:09 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2008 04:08 Orome wrote:
Your point about foreign players' improvements sound exactly like what's been said before every WCG in the last few years.
I think the one thing foreigners have going for them's that with everyone's play, foreigners and Koreans, increasing, specially prepared builds become more and more important and obviously the foreigners will have the much better preparation.
When is WCG Korea by the way? How the hell can you say that? We have never had chaos/ICCUP with chaos. That is unique to THIS timeframe not years past. And players have improved each year true, but not with the added bonus of chaos plugin. You are missing some pretty important factors here.
I wasn't responding to all your points there, only to the part about how much better the foreigners have become.
I didn't say anything about the Chaoslauncher argument because I don't know how much of a factor that'll be as I've never actually played this game on a high level.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
Uh nitpicking points and acting like they dont correlate to other factors is an artificial debate. The argument you were making has factors associated to it. Just because you decided to ignore them doesnt make them go away.
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yeah I really would like to see a non-korean win the WCG too
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its bold, ballsy, and filled with aignst, i like this idea
gogogo foreign scene WOOOOOOOOOOOO
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Koreans are too cocky these days, they are just winning because their players practice so much more than non-korean pro's
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On May 21 2008 04:38 himurakenshin wrote:
Koreans are too cocky these days, they are just winning because their players practice so much more than non-korean pro's
actually because their pride forces them not to lose
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im sorry, but top 3 will be korean, and SC:BW will still be in Wcg in 09
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Not sure as to who has qualified for the WCG right now. So I can't really say. But I do hope a foreigner wins WCG. so we can call them foreigners D=
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when is WCG Korea, anyway?
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Lets just pray that neither flash nor Jaedong qualifies for this years WCG, because no foreigner will have any chance versus any of those monsters.
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On May 21 2008 04:38 himurakenshin wrote:
Koreans are too cocky these days, they are just winning because their players practice so much more than non-korean pro's
What kind of crap post is this? And a weightlifter is just stronger because he's in the gym so much more than your average Joe. What's your point?? Is this some kind of deep-seated insecurity where in your own little mind you're framing it as some sort of racial competition?? Is this the same sentiment that leads some people to say white people > all because they've been more technologically advanced for the past few centuries?
Of course it has everything to do with how much the players train. Korea's SC community is vibrant, popular, and has FINANCIAL support. That goes a long way toward making them superior. That's what the word PROFESSIONAL means. They get paid to do it. I'm sure a NASCAR driver would feel cocky street racing vs some random kid too.
Whining about it and pointing out obvious factors doesn't blot out the fact it's true. Korea's SC community is much more competitive than anywhere outside of that. Don't get mad at Korea, get mad at your own country's lack of interest if you're unhappy about foreigners not succeeding.
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On a different note, does anyone know if the WCG final tickets are being sold yet? I've been looking around and I don't think they are but I don't want to be too late like I was with the WWI >_<
P.s. Incontrol did you manage to qualify for the WCG? Not sure what region you're in so I can't tell.
Because I saw you play during the 2007 (I think) WCG qualifiers and you were really good, and I can't help but thinking this post is somehow related to you qualifying yourself for the WCG final and being extremely confident you're going to get us foreigners the gold this year lol. Maybe I'm just reading a little too much into this.
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You can make all the predictions and arguments you want.
At the end of the day, who out the top foreign players would beat players like Flash, Jaedong or Bisu (or any of the top 30 Kespa players)? Be honest now.
Foreign players have improved no doubt, but no where near enough to take down the best Korea has to offer.
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On May 22 2008 00:19 RowdierBob wrote:
You can make all the predictions and arguments you want.
At the end of the day, who out the top foreign players would beat players like Flash, Jaedong or Bisu (or any of the top 30 Kespa players)? Be honest now.
Foreign players have improved no doubt, but no where near enough to take down the best Korea has to offer.
Mind you Stork VS PJ last year was fairly close (atleast that's the way I remember it).
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On May 22 2008 01:03 Pellucidity wrote:
Mind you Stork VS PJ last year was fairly close (atleast that's the way I remember it).
I myself remember it as a brutal rape. The difference in micro was so ridiculous that in one of the games Stork destroyed PJ losing no more than one or two zealots in the process iirc. This being said I've quite forgotten the other games so I might be wrong.
About foreigners taking WCG this year, well, it would be nice, but I think they'll have to improve a lot until then (TSL can and will surely help). Watching quite a lot of TSL games has left me a major feeling, which is that despite some moments of brilliance, mechanics fail to keep up when the scale of the game grows past a certain point. Either macro or micro takes a dive, depending of the player.
The only hope I can see is a remake of last year's Savior vs PJ with koreans playing very safe and letting their opponent build up a huge econ superiority. Let's just hope there won't be too many terran koreans going to Germany because the simple idea of one of the top20 kespa TvPing a foreigner makes me cringe.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On May 21 2008 12:30 Pellucidity wrote:
On a different note, does anyone know if the WCG final tickets are being sold yet? I've been looking around and I don't think they are but I don't want to be too late like I was with the WWI >_<
P.s. Incontrol did you manage to qualify for the WCG? Not sure what region you're in so I can't tell.
Because I saw you play during the 2007 (I think) WCG qualifiers and you were really good, and I can't help but thinking this post is somehow related to you qualifying yourself for the WCG final and being extremely confident you're going to get us foreigners the gold this year lol. Maybe I'm just reading a little too much into this.
Thanks for the support
I have yet to qualify but I have the US Open at the end of this month in which the top 2 of 4 get auto seed into USA finals (best option) and then I have at least 2 more pacific qualifiers that I can compete in online coming up shortly after that. I hope to be qualified by one of these options
I dont think of myself as a legitimate threat for the gold so no, my post was not fueled by that. I do think I can make it out of my groups (despite my poor 2007 performance) and maybe do some damage from there. I will work hard like the rest. Thanks for rooting for me though!
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On May 21 2008 11:15 EGoldman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2008 04:38 himurakenshin wrote:
Koreans are too cocky these days, they are just winning because their players practice so much more than non-korean pro's What kind of crap post is this? And a weightlifter is just stronger because he's in the gym so much more than your average Joe. What's your point?? Is this some kind of deep-seated insecurity where in your own little mind you're framing it as some sort of racial competition?? Is this the same sentiment that leads some people to say white people > all because they've been more technologically advanced for the past few centuries? Of course it has everything to do with how much the players train. Korea's SC community is vibrant, popular, and has FINANCIAL support. That goes a long way toward making them superior. That's what the word PROFESSIONAL means. They get paid to do it. I'm sure a NASCAR driver would feel cocky street racing vs some random kid too. Whining about it and pointing out obvious factors doesn't blot out the fact it's true. Korea's SC community is much more competitive than anywhere outside of that. Don't get mad at Korea, get mad at your own country's lack of interest if you're unhappy about foreigners not succeeding.
Koreans are actually very very cocky and proud to a fault when it comes to WCG. I witnessed this first hand. Throwing games to try and set up the bracket a certain way, lying about "not knowing rules" or simply not trying because you dont value your opponent (first whitera vs stork games) are all signs of disrespect. I can hardly blame them but that doesnt mean they dont feel that way. A huge upset and a gold finish for a non korean would jar the scene and make things fun leading into SC2.
(koreans are already beta testing the game.. we are disadvantaged for a game that is yet to be released )
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On May 22 2008 01:03 Pellucidity wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2008 00:19 RowdierBob wrote:
You can make all the predictions and arguments you want.
At the end of the day, who out the top foreign players would beat players like Flash, Jaedong or Bisu (or any of the top 30 Kespa players)? Be honest now.
Foreign players have improved no doubt, but no where near enough to take down the best Korea has to offer. Mind you Stork VS PJ last year was fairly close (atleast that's the way I remember it).
Point being, he still won 2-0. Foreigners can definitely compete with pros, but they don't have enough caliber in them to take a bo3.
No doubt the quality of the foreigner players has improved a lot since last year, but it still isn't anywhere near enough.
The only chance I'd give them is a very specific and somewhat allin style build.
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I somehow agree with Incontrol. The chances of a foreigner winning gold have never been that high. Yet, what are they? 20%? Maybe less?
Some things favor foreigners indeed : WCG still don't use seeds, what will probably lead to a Korean eliminating another Korean before Ro8.
Foreigners have all the resources they want to get to know their opponent, and can practice for WCG only for months. Whereas Koreans don't know any foreigner (save Draco and Idra, but I don't even think they would bother to study their style), and train for every league except WCG.
This year, the Lan Latency factor evens things for us : I trust Incontrol about this, I couldn't tell myself.
I agree with the fact that many foreigners have never been better, but disagree with the Korean level stagnating. Yet, I believe the 3 Koreans at WCG will NOT be the top 3 (kespa or PR or whatever) : good news for us.
One last factor is that some progamers don't care about WCG and given all of the above, this could lead to an upset. I think Flash is a machine and will crush (or try to) any opponent anytime anywhere. But Jaedong? Didn't you see him toy with Ruby without drones... and lose in the end? What would happen against Brat or Strelok? I think some (most?) pros would just play safe and relaxed, and might be surprised by a better prepared and motivated opponent. But again, winning ONE game is not winning a Bo3, let alone a Bo5.
So, a foreigner might win WCG. But if you took say the top 10 foreigners and had them compete in MSL or OSL, none of them would stand even a remote chance of making it past the group stages, simply because pros would then treat them as serious opponents.
PS : good luck InControl. Hope you can make it to Cologne. I might be able to go there as a spectator, and hopefully cheer for you
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when is WCG gonna happen?
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While I do hope for a foreigner upset for this year's WCG, the probability of such an event is just too small.
Sure, a foreigner win would have a HUGE impact on the starcraft world, but the actual win would be at best a lucky upset against some heavily favored Korean juggernaut (most likely Flash at this point).
Look at Draco during the TSL versus White-ra- both Chill and Artosis time and again praised his mechanics advantage because he spent some time in Korea. And he didn't even accomplish anything in Korea. In straight-up games, any Korean would rape a foreigner. The mechanics difference is just too huge.
Look at Cloud vs. Iefnaij during the TSL. Iefnaij's mechanics were just much better to the point where the two games he did win were just straight-up, one-sided rapes. A Korean's mechanics would be even better than that.
In the end, a foreigner will be able to take a few games through cheese or some kind of build order win, but the mechanical difference is just so huge that if the Koreans don't get too cocky they're untouchable.
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And then we're reminded of what eSTRO's B team did to the foreigners...
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On May 22 2008 13:51 MorningMusume11 wrote:
And then we're reminded of what eSTRO's B team did to the foreigners...
Oh are we just citing random times when a korean beat a foreigner? Ok, can I go next? PJ beat Savior at WCG! Or Testie beat Midas ^_^
yay!
The point being your example doesnt take into account the factors discussed at all and actually doesnt relate in this discussion beyond the fact that its sc and multi ethnic people play it.
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On May 22 2008 14:43 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2008 13:51 MorningMusume11 wrote:
And then we're reminded of what eSTRO's B team did to the foreigners... Oh are we just citing random times when a korean beat a foreigner? Ok, can I go next? PJ beat Savior at WCG! Or Testie beat Midas ^_^ yay! The point being your example doesnt take into account the factors discussed at all and actually doesnt relate in this discussion beyond the fact that its sc and multi ethnic people play it.
once i got beat by a random korean on battle.net
he had like 120APM
i think we're going to lose in WCG cuz of dat
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Russian Federation57 Posts
dont rofl
non koreans will get raped by any of 1-20 kespa
dont rofl
2 of top3 will be koreans without a doubt
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A foreigner winning a WCG would just be a huge boon to the foreign community. It still seems really unlikely, but anything can happen in the span of a few games.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Haypro is swedish.
I don't think we have a WCG this year either? Do we??
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On May 22 2008 14:43 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2008 13:51 MorningMusume11 wrote:
And then we're reminded of what eSTRO's B team did to the foreigners... Oh are we just citing random times when a korean beat a foreigner? Ok, can I go next? PJ beat Savior at WCG! Or Testie beat Midas ^_^ yay! The point being your example doesnt take into account the factors discussed at all and actually doesnt relate in this discussion beyond the fact that its sc and multi ethnic people play it.
Indeed Incontrol =D
Nah I'm just trying to be a douchebag and say that the Koreans will dominate as usual =P
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On May 22 2008 14:43 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2008 13:51 MorningMusume11 wrote:
And then we're reminded of what eSTRO's B team did to the foreigners... Oh are we just citing random times when a korean beat a foreigner? Ok, can I go next? PJ beat Savior at WCG! Or Testie beat Midas ^_^ yay! The point being your example doesnt take into account the factors discussed at all and actually doesnt relate in this discussion beyond the fact that its sc and multi ethnic people play it.
I
I'm pretty sure it has quite a lot to do with the discussion since it was the B team of the worst/close to worst ranked Korean progaming team versus the best USA players and not one of them lost a single game, whereas the people coming to WCG will be the S class players of the best progaming teams in Korea.
....lol
*waits for the explosion of rage and rhetoric*
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On May 23 2008 05:08 EnergyTraction wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2008 14:43 {88}iNcontroL wrote:On May 22 2008 13:51 MorningMusume11 wrote:
And then we're reminded of what eSTRO's B team did to the foreigners... Oh are we just citing random times when a korean beat a foreigner? Ok, can I go next? PJ beat Savior at WCG! Or Testie beat Midas ^_^ yay! The point being your example doesnt take into account the factors discussed at all and actually doesnt relate in this discussion beyond the fact that its sc and multi ethnic people play it. I I'm pretty sure it has quite a lot to do with the discussion since it was the B team of the worst/close to worst ranked Korean progaming team versus the best USA players and not one of them lost a single game, whereas the people coming to WCG will be the S class players of the best progaming teams in Korea. ....lol *waits for the explosion of rage and rhetoric*
Can you stop being a dick? I know you want to get banned again but you dont need to try SO hard.
No, it doesn't have anything to do with this. In your OWN rhetoric you discuss additional reasons (beyond the ones I already gave in my reply to him as quoted) why they dont relate. These are "b" team professional gamers (which btw, doesnt mean too terribly much considering Shudder_V_, Nal_keke and other potential/former top level progamers are in there) playing non koreans. Suggesting that far superior professionals would come in and do "even greater" is a fucking logical fallicy and I dont know what more I can do to try and cram some common sense into your dense albeit minimalist skull. The greatest players on earth have lost to non koreans. Does that prove anything? Abso-fucking-lutely not. SO STOP. Discussing factors that can aid in the propensity for this to happen is where the actual debate lies. You have managed to not only evade the discussion but plow through an explanation for why it is bad to evade the discussion and continue to bat your forehead on the wall of ignorance. Stop, don't do it here. Just stop.
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On May 23 2008 05:08 EnergyTraction wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2008 14:43 {88}iNcontroL wrote:On May 22 2008 13:51 MorningMusume11 wrote:
And then we're reminded of what eSTRO's B team did to the foreigners... Oh are we just citing random times when a korean beat a foreigner? Ok, can I go next? PJ beat Savior at WCG! Or Testie beat Midas ^_^ yay! The point being your example doesnt take into account the factors discussed at all and actually doesnt relate in this discussion beyond the fact that its sc and multi ethnic people play it. I I'm pretty sure it has quite a lot to do with the discussion since it was the B team of the worst/close to worst ranked Korean progaming team versus the best USA players and not one of them lost a single game, whereas the people coming to WCG will be the S class players of the best progaming teams in Korea. ....lol *waits for the explosion of rage and rhetoric*
You're missing the point of the discussion - the fact that this year, foreigners have so many extra advantages that they didn't have in the years before. Nobody is arguing that Koreans aren't better than us...that is just plainly obvious. But come tourney time, anything can happen, and I'd have to say that our chances have improved, and a large part of that is due to the advantages that iNc has cited.
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G5 beat Bisu PvT ?
Draco beat by.Fantasy
Grrrr.... best (Name goes here)
Androide and Reason beat Silent_Control
Draco beat Midas
What else... hehe
Personally I think go.go needs to go win the WCG to get himself more cash, since he and 910 had to set their games so they can get a ton of moolah =P
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i believe stork was throwing games away so all the korean players can meet later into the tourny, hwasin lost yes but only to stork (who was doing VERY good at that period of time, idk y u said no1 expect him to win, imo i had predicted that stork would win if he meets hwasin b4 hwasin meets savior) the ONLY part about last WCG that was out of place is the fact that savior did worse than i expected, as soon as stork met hwasin i knew stork was gonna win the whole tourny.
back to the topic, i dont agree with incontrol on the original topic of this post (although i would like it to be the case). imo savior was slumping when he made it tho the korean wcg and i actually had predicted Bisu to in his place.
however, this has been said all the time, the koreans all seemed untouchable b4 coming to wcg and seemed somewhat touchable when they came but no1 ever took the 1st place from them (for 8 years STRAIGHT?), you may argue that we lost by a not-so-big margin (which i agree to a certain extend) but the fact that we ALWAYS loses (even if by small amount) shows theres a huge gap between the skill lvl. for example: when u have 2 supposedly equally skilled player play each other, their history record would be somewhat even. Now imagine this... two players: player K (a korean) and player F (a foreigner) their record is 8:0 favors K, would u say that K and F r close in skill lvl? would u say that (by the look of now) F will be able to beat K very soon? at least skillfully (not fluke)
Lastly lets not forget that the maps that were used for wcg have always been the old maps (korean pros would highly unlikely to have decent amount of practice on them) and as seen practice is important in sc
However i dont completely disagree with OP, i mean i personally believe that the world will catch up at SOME point (unless sc gets old 4 every1 b4 that happens, but we cant say 4 sure), it is true that it will eventually happen and despite all odds i have mentioned above: (we might be going 9:0, 10:0, 11:0...) we will break the zero at some point. but the bottom line is since the result and facts r unfavorable vs us, it is fair to just wait 4 it to actually happen b4 attempting to claim anything that seems to be unlikely to happen by statistics
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United States20661 Posts
With a modernized map pool and players like By.Flash I don't see foreigners taking it.
Have you seen Flash recently? Fucking untouchable.
vs Rock and vs Yarnc and vs Magma and vs Jangbi he was just like 'you can have the first 10 minutes of the game. I'm going to kill you anyway'. And did just that.
What the hell. Against Jangbi he didn't even scout.
I hope foreigners put up a good fight, and show good games, but I honestly don't see it happening.
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Close only matters in horseshoes and hand grenades. The logical fallacy is in saying "these factors increase the chances of winning." Yeah but by how much? The debate is absolutely impossible to answer. There's no data involved. There have been a few losses, but those are outliers. Statistically, you ignore those. You can't use them as the foundation for an argument. You especially cannot use them as indicators that the Korean SC scene is stagnating in skill. That's an incredible statement to make. And statistically speaking, foreigners have been crushed over and over again. That's the only thing for sure. The factors inControl bring up are about as reliable as predicting the weather. Sure, air pressure/humidity/cold front movement can be indicative of things, but actually using that to make a guess? Sorry, there's just not enough to work with their.
A win is a win is a win. And when it comes down to it, I don't see the foreigner scene taking wins off THREE top level pros from Korea. One, yes. Two, in a worst case scenario for Korea. But knocking out all three?? I still haven't seen any factors that suggest that would happen. Saying the chances of it have increased is optimistic at best and facetious at worst. If I want to win the lottery and this year I buy a few more tickets, does it mean my chances of winning have gone up? Yes, they have. Does it mean I can loudly proclaim from the rooftops, "this year, I am very likely to be a millionaire!" Not really. Personally, I'd say the factors do not have that significant of an impact.
What WOULD convince me that the foreigner scene stands a chance is if I got to see real games of Korean pros vs top-level foreigners and the foreigners started winning. That's real, solid evidence of where the foreigners stand. Any other argument is nothing but theory-craft of the most whimsical sort.
p.s. To talk about Flash though, Go.Go just beat him in a solid drawn out game in the PL the other day. Flash didn't look at all happy about that. In fact, he's lost twice in TvT lately. His TvZ and TvP are monstrous though. Especially vP
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On May 23 2008 13:33 EGoldman wrote:
Close only matters in horseshoes and hand grenades. The logical fallacy is in saying "these factors increase the chances of winning." Yeah but by how much? The debate is absolutely impossible to answer. There's no data involved. There have been a few losses, but those are outliers. Statistically, you ignore those. You can't use them as the foundation for an argument. You especially cannot use them as indicators that the Korean SC scene is stagnating in skill. That's an incredible statement to make. And statistically speaking, foreigners have been crushed over and over again. That's the only thing for sure. The factors inControl bring up are about as reliable as predicting the weather. Sure, air pressure/humidity/cold front movement can be indicative of things, but actually using that to make a guess? Sorry, there's just not enough to work with their.
A win is a win is a win. And when it comes down to it, I don't see the foreigner scene taking wins off THREE top level pros from Korea. One, yes. Two, in a worst case scenario for Korea. But knocking out all three?? I still haven't seen any factors that suggest that would happen. Saying the chances of it have increased is optimistic at best and facetious at worst. If I want to win the lottery and this year I buy a few more tickets, does it mean my chances of winning have gone up? Yes, they have. Does it mean I can loudly proclaim from the rooftops, "this year, I am very likely to be a millionaire!" Not really. Personally, I'd say the factors do not have that significant of an impact.
What WOULD convince me that the foreigner scene stands a chance is if I got to see real games of Korean pros vs top-level foreigners and the foreigners started winning. That's real, solid evidence of where the foreigners stand. Any other argument is nothing but theory-craft of the most whimsical sort.
p.s. To talk about Flash though, Go.Go just beat him in a solid drawn out game in the PL the other day. Flash didn't look at all happy about that. In fact, he's lost twice in TvT lately. His TvZ and TvP are monstrous though. Especially vP
Hey My name is "I already said that." At the beginning of my original post I said that the purpose was to have a discussion Not to have a statistical argument. Since those are boring. But hey, I'd like to invite you to engage the discussion like you have without the first part where you ignore what has already been said and do a schpeal on something completely unnecessary.
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I could agree that 2 out of 3 will be non Norean, around a 40 percent chance. But not the 1st place, I don't think anybody will beat a Korean in the Finals. With their tournament experience and game mastery.
I also disagree that this would be SC:BW last year.
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again the point is... the whole WCG is a pretty big touny with tons good player from all around world with intense group round and cruel elimination round. however the korean has ALWAYS made it out of their group and to the very top VERY year for 7-8 years in a row? fluke? i dont think so! how often do u see a player (or a specific nation) win an event 8 times in a row?
therefore, i dont think the skill lvl is any where near been "close"
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Yep we have one year of lan latency on high lvl gaming in the foreign scene. But the koreans have a tradition of lan latency that can't be overthrown by one year of lan latency practice, and this year of practice is still not on the same lvl as the korean who has had a better practice scen for years and years.
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Everybody's apparently forgetting there were two foreigners in the top 3 last year. Saviour lost to (androide) I think and Hwasin(or the other korean player, think it was Hwasin though)... Well.. I can't even remember who destroyed him. I don't know much about Korea but I do know they are very honourable people and I honestly doubt any of them would throw games (especially to foreigners). So why did they lose? Both Saviour and Hwasin made it through to the point where they were playing Bo3. So you can't really call it luck, can you.
The point being, stop being so negative, We can and will claim victory in what could possibly be the last BW at the WCG ever. Reckon it'd be a good closer.
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Well as Incontrol's observations may seem to be correct, Korean pro-gamers are still on a different level they still practice 10+ hours a day every day as their job, they still have nerves of steel when playing infront of large amounts of crowds when it really counts. The gap may be getting closer but its my opinion that Korean's as long as there will be SCBW in wcg (for however long that is) will take home the gold. Ive been watching the TSL along side Proleague, MSL and OSL and as much as I like the TSL and the games it has been producing they just aren't up to par with the Korean pro-scene. This is not to say that it is impossible for a foreigner to take gold because Korean WCG > WCG Grand Final (I don't think anyone can argue this statement) and if the top players don't make it to the Grand final because they got cheesed or whatever it is possible for Korea to send a much weaker line up which gives foreigners a much much greater opportunity to win. But I think it is safe to say that if Korea sends Flash, Jaedong, Bisu to the Grand Finals in top shape a foreigner has very very smalll chance of winning.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On May 24 2008 21:35 SayTT wrote:
Yep we have one year of lan latency on high lvl gaming in the foreign scene. But the koreans have a tradition of lan latency that can't be overthrown by one year of lan latency practice, and this year of practice is still not on the same lvl as the korean who has had a better practice scen for years and years.
non unique. They have always had that tradition and we have a year under our belt whereas in years previous we have had nothing close to a full year. The unique factor is what we are discussing. I grow tired of explaining this.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On May 24 2008 22:04 Pellucidity wrote:
Everybody's apparently forgetting there were two foreigners in the top 3 last year. Saviour lost to (androide) I think and Hwasin(or the other korean player, think it was Hwasin though)... Well.. I can't even remember who destroyed him. I don't know much about Korea but I do know they are very honourable people and I honestly doubt any of them would throw games (especially to foreigners). So why did they lose? Both Saviour and Hwasin made it through to the point where they were playing Bo3. So you can't really call it luck, can you.
The point being, stop being so negative, We can and will claim victory in what could possibly be the last BW at the WCG ever. Reckon it'd be a good closer.
savior lost to pj and hwasin lost to stork
They did throw games and it was to try and make the brackets in favor of 3 koreans in the top 3.
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GoRush lost to G5's who was using scouts
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On May 25 2008 01:43 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2008 21:35 SayTT wrote:
Yep we have one year of lan latency on high lvl gaming in the foreign scene. But the koreans have a tradition of lan latency that can't be overthrown by one year of lan latency practice, and this year of practice is still not on the same lvl as the korean who has had a better practice scen for years and years. non unique. They have always had that tradition and we have a year under our belt whereas in years previous we have had nothing close to a full year. The unique factor is what we are discussing. I grow tired of explaining this.
Maybe people keep missing your point because this "we have access to LAN games now!" argument you put so much emphasis on will ultimately have minimal effect on the winner of the tournament. I can see your logic of "if it was possible to beat Korean progamers without LAN, we'll be sure to trump them now", but seriously, counting the last 3 years, only two progamers were eliminated by a foreigners out of 9 participations.
Wishful-thinking being put aside, exposure to LAN environment gaming alone won't raise the chances of Koreans being eliminated by foreigner up by much. Minimizing the level of skill will be far more important, and unfortunately for the competition, it still is quite significant. So much so Korean progamers often have the luxury of deliberately losing in group stages to suit their own purposes. Maybe last year's WCG has proven that Korean progamers can no longer get away with "fixing" the brackets (yes, I agree that it is very disrespectful), but you're greatly mistaken if you think some LAN games are going to put you on an even footing with these guys.
Put it another way. Lets say you take three WCG Korea representatives in a courage tournament. Whatever the disadvantages these gamers have (not knowing their opponent, being overly-confident etc), the advantage they have (difference in skill and experience) will be more than enough to make them extremely heavy favourites to win the entire tournament. They will most likely lose some games, and one or two might be eliminated. But not all three. I don't think the level of gamers participating in this year's WCG is that much higher. It's not going to happen this year. Sorry.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On May 25 2008 17:18 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2008 01:43 {88}iNcontroL wrote:On May 24 2008 21:35 SayTT wrote:
Yep we have one year of lan latency on high lvl gaming in the foreign scene. But the koreans have a tradition of lan latency that can't be overthrown by one year of lan latency practice, and this year of practice is still not on the same lvl as the korean who has had a better practice scen for years and years. non unique. They have always had that tradition and we have a year under our belt whereas in years previous we have had nothing close to a full year. The unique factor is what we are discussing. I grow tired of explaining this. Maybe people keep missing your point because this "we have access to LAN games now!" argument you put so much emphasis on will ultimately have minimal effect on the winner of the tournament. I can see your logic of "if it was possible to beat Korean progamers without LAN, we'll be sure to trump them now", but seriously, counting the last 3 years, only two progamers were eliminated by a foreigners out of 9 participations. Wishful-thinking being put aside, exposure to LAN environment gaming alone won't raise the chances of Koreans being eliminated by foreigner up by much. Minimizing the level of skill will be far more important, and unfortunately for the competition, it still is quite significant. So much so Korean progamers often have the luxury of deliberately losing in group stages to suit their own purposes. Maybe last year's WCG has proven that Korean progamers can no longer get away with "fixing" the brackets (yes, I agree that it is very disrespectful), but you're greatly mistaken if you think some LAN games are going to put you on an even footing with these guys. Put it another way. Lets say you take three WCG Korea representatives in a courage tournament. Whatever the disadvantages these gamers have (not knowing their opponent, being overly-confident etc), the advantage they have (difference in skill and experience) will be more than enough to make them extremely heavy favourites to win the entire tournament. They will most likely lose some games, and one or two might be eliminated. But not all three. I don't think the level of gamers participating in this year's WCG is that much higher. It's not going to happen this year. Sorry.
Stating "the effect will be minimal" is not a statement of truth. That is an assertion backed by nothing. In fact your logic for that claim was to explain a different factor and how you think it is more important. Your smoke and mirrors has failed my friend. I'd explain why LAN latency is an important factor but I already did that.
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Cockiness can be taken advantage of. Also, situations/builds that progamers are not used to fighting could work well.
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On May 26 2008 00:05 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2008 17:18 Letmelose wrote:On May 25 2008 01:43 {88}iNcontroL wrote:On May 24 2008 21:35 SayTT wrote:
Yep we have one year of lan latency on high lvl gaming in the foreign scene. But the koreans have a tradition of lan latency that can't be overthrown by one year of lan latency practice, and this year of practice is still not on the same lvl as the korean who has had a better practice scen for years and years. non unique. They have always had that tradition and we have a year under our belt whereas in years previous we have had nothing close to a full year. The unique factor is what we are discussing. I grow tired of explaining this. Maybe people keep missing your point because this "we have access to LAN games now!" argument you put so much emphasis on will ultimately have minimal effect on the winner of the tournament. I can see your logic of "if it was possible to beat Korean progamers without LAN, we'll be sure to trump them now", but seriously, counting the last 3 years, only two progamers were eliminated by a foreigners out of 9 participations. Wishful-thinking being put aside, exposure to LAN environment gaming alone won't raise the chances of Koreans being eliminated by foreigner up by much. Minimizing the level of skill will be far more important, and unfortunately for the competition, it still is quite significant. So much so Korean progamers often have the luxury of deliberately losing in group stages to suit their own purposes. Maybe last year's WCG has proven that Korean progamers can no longer get away with "fixing" the brackets (yes, I agree that it is very disrespectful), but you're greatly mistaken if you think some LAN games are going to put you on an even footing with these guys. Put it another way. Lets say you take three WCG Korea representatives in a courage tournament. Whatever the disadvantages these gamers have (not knowing their opponent, being overly-confident etc), the advantage they have (difference in skill and experience) will be more than enough to make them extremely heavy favourites to win the entire tournament. They will most likely lose some games, and one or two might be eliminated. But not all three. I don't think the level of gamers participating in this year's WCG is that much higher. It's not going to happen this year. Sorry. Stating "the effect will be minimal" is not a statement of truth. That is an assertion backed by nothing. In fact your logic for that claim was to explain a different factor and how you think it is more important. Your smoke and mirrors has failed my friend. I'd explain why LAN latency is an important factor but I already did that.
Sorry to stomp on your enthusiasm and all, but maybe you're overestimating the level of gaming outside of Korea regarding starcraft. It's a ten year old game and obviously there are great players around the world, and it's great for you guys that you finally have access to LAN games. But I shit you not when I say that no amount of LAN games are going to help you reach the level of gaming that the best of Korea has reached. Not in this short span of time.
As I see it, there are no players outside of Korea who can seriously compete with top progamers. Yes amateurs do take the odd games off top progamers, but we're talking about a non-Korean gamer winning the WCG here. You talk as if top foreign gamers are more or less even in skill with the likes of Jaedong and Flash and just need some "incentive" to mass game on LAN and then we're set. The way I see it, top foreign gamers do have the ability to win the odd game against them under certain circumstances, but NOTHING besides the actual increase of skill is going to help you if you're seriously considering to overcome them all in the tournament.
But that's just my opinion as a spectator. Prove me wrong this year. It'll send shockwaves all around. WCG needs to spice up anyhow.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On May 26 2008 01:04 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2008 00:05 {88}iNcontroL wrote:On May 25 2008 17:18 Letmelose wrote:On May 25 2008 01:43 {88}iNcontroL wrote:On May 24 2008 21:35 SayTT wrote:
Yep we have one year of lan latency on high lvl gaming in the foreign scene. But the koreans have a tradition of lan latency that can't be overthrown by one year of lan latency practice, and this year of practice is still not on the same lvl as the korean who has had a better practice scen for years and years. non unique. They have always had that tradition and we have a year under our belt whereas in years previous we have had nothing close to a full year. The unique factor is what we are discussing. I grow tired of explaining this. Maybe people keep missing your point because this "we have access to LAN games now!" argument you put so much emphasis on will ultimately have minimal effect on the winner of the tournament. I can see your logic of "if it was possible to beat Korean progamers without LAN, we'll be sure to trump them now", but seriously, counting the last 3 years, only two progamers were eliminated by a foreigners out of 9 participations. Wishful-thinking being put aside, exposure to LAN environment gaming alone won't raise the chances of Koreans being eliminated by foreigner up by much. Minimizing the level of skill will be far more important, and unfortunately for the competition, it still is quite significant. So much so Korean progamers often have the luxury of deliberately losing in group stages to suit their own purposes. Maybe last year's WCG has proven that Korean progamers can no longer get away with "fixing" the brackets (yes, I agree that it is very disrespectful), but you're greatly mistaken if you think some LAN games are going to put you on an even footing with these guys. Put it another way. Lets say you take three WCG Korea representatives in a courage tournament. Whatever the disadvantages these gamers have (not knowing their opponent, being overly-confident etc), the advantage they have (difference in skill and experience) will be more than enough to make them extremely heavy favourites to win the entire tournament. They will most likely lose some games, and one or two might be eliminated. But not all three. I don't think the level of gamers participating in this year's WCG is that much higher. It's not going to happen this year. Sorry. Stating "the effect will be minimal" is not a statement of truth. That is an assertion backed by nothing. In fact your logic for that claim was to explain a different factor and how you think it is more important. Your smoke and mirrors has failed my friend. I'd explain why LAN latency is an important factor but I already did that. Sorry to stomp on your enthusiasm and all, but maybe you're overestimating the level of gaming outside of Korea regarding starcraft. It's a ten year old game and obviously there are great players around the world, and it's great for you guys that you finally have access to LAN games. But I shit you not when I say that no amount of LAN games are going to help you reach the level of gaming that the best of Korea has reached. Not in this short span of time. As I see it, there are no players outside of Korea who can seriously compete with top progamers. Yes amateurs do take the odd games off top progamers, but we're talking about a non-Korean gamer winning the WCG here. You talk as if top foreign gamers are more or less even in skill with the likes of Jaedong and Flash and just need some "incentive" to mass game on LAN and then we're set. The way I see it, top foreign gamers do have the ability to win the odd game against them under certain circumstances, but NOTHING besides the actual increase of skill is going to help you if you're seriously considering to overcome them all in the tournament. But that's just my opinion as a spectator. Prove me wrong this year. It'll send shockwaves all around. WCG needs to spice up anyhow.
I stopped reading when I got to "I shit you not" then you went on to explain that non koreans are still worse than professional koreans. Dude.. you are so outside of what we are discussing ti hurts. I am done trying to goad you into participating. If you think this was an argument for why non-koreans are magically as good or better than the pros you have some serious reading comprehension issues.
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I'm sorry. I just fail to understand how you can put a serious claim on your predictions if the differences in skill is going to be a non-factor in this discussion. Maybe you're more interested in the factors going for foreigners this year. I'm not. I think those are a non-issue if we're going to have a serious discussion on the possibility of a foreigner winning this year's WCG. You obviously think otherwise, I can see that.
You predict a foreigner winning the WCG this year. You state that LAN latency will be a major factor in deciding the winner of this year's WCG. I just posted to check if you had more to add to your argument because I really don't like the odds of your predictions if that's all you have to say.
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Netherlands4511 Posts
I don't think foreigners will really have a shot at wcg. Once you play a progamer you realise they are on a level you can't even imagine. Maybe Mondragon can beat a P, and Draco can kill some terrans, but if they send the best of the best I don't think we have a chance. Professionals > people playing for ufn.
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It depends heavily on who they send. Savior had already been on a slump last year, so it wasn't such a shock that he lost, especially since 2 years ago he was close to losing too IIRC. Stork won, even tho he "lost" 3 games to white-ra. And Hwasin was Hwasin.
Now if they send Savior, Stork and Nada for example this year, we might see foreigners in the top 3. If they send Flash Mind and Jaedong, they will rape everyone and finish top 3 easily. But chances are they won't, so yay for non-koreans.
Edit: I'm not ignoring the LAN thing, but I don't think it will matter too much. The main difference here is obviously skill and practice. And koreeans still own at that... I think that any 3 people from the power rank would kill @ WCG. We'll see.
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On May 19 2008 12:46 SonuvBob wrote:
4. Once TSL takes off, no one will care about WCG. :p
I hope you're right about 1&2.
Absolutely. Who even cares about the korean bw scene now that we have our own. TSL all the way. This is the only league I have been fully watching other then the GOMTV intel classic commentated by the great tasteless.
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I think the question InControl needs to address fully, or maybe just analyze for his personal view on it, is one factor alone.
It seems that InControl's entire argument is worked around one central premise: LAN latency.
Now, the question is this. "How much does LAN latency increase a gamer's skill?"
The second question is "what is the probable gap in skill between the top level foreigner scene and the top level Korean scene?"
Now, do some basic yet highly theoretical subtraction and you have your answer on the probability that a country other than Korea is going to take the gold for SC this WCG.
(Diff. in Skill) - (Skill increase due to LAN) = Probability
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You also have to consider that koreans won't be bringing their A game. Getting overconfident can be a huge downfall.
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Mind you all you have to speculate to accumulate.
Yes the Koreans are somewhat better, but there will only be three of them whereas there'll be a 29 (?) foreigners. And we have good players aswell and we have atleast 20 hours (I think, maybe a little more or less) worth of video footage of EVERY korean progamer, no matter who they send. So really,we do have an edge and ignoring that is just wrong.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
I'll bet any amount of money anyone wants that a foreigner won't win wcg. 4:1 odds you can have LOL
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
it's just hilarious to me that a guy that clicks the unit boxes to macro can even think he has the know how and knowledge to compare foreigners to koreans and rate their chances of success against them
foreigners have gotten better because of the latency stuff, but koreans are also making strategical and technical leaps and bounds all the time as well that still keep them lightyears ahead of the whiteman
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On May 28 2008 06:01 Rekrul wrote:
it's just hilarious to me that a guy that clicks the unit boxes to macro can even think he has the know how and knowledge to compare foreigners to koreans and rate their chances of success against them
foreigners have gotten better because of the latency stuff, but koreans are also making strategical and technical leaps and bounds all the time as well that still keep them lightyears ahead of the whiteman
Oh, you mean the leaps we get to observe every single day? Yeah gosh... How will we ever figure those out.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
The maps favor non koreans over koreans (like they do every year imo). Python/Bluestorm being the only real maps they will have any kind of interest in leaving Peaks/Tau/Gaia to be on our side. This is mentioned every year and doesn't pan out that much but I would contend with the compiling factors it starts to add up.
How can you possibly say maps favor non koreans over koreans? What the fuck does that even mean? Maps favor races, not players. If you think foreigners have an advantage over the Koreans because koreans will be too busy practicing other maps for their leagues you are wrong. The Koreans know the game much much more in depth than the white man. They don't need to practice it nearly as much to know everything there is to know about the maps. They have teams full of pro-gamers and coaches there to play and analyze with and find the best strategies and small things on the map that they can abuse to their advantage. Non-koreans are much worse at figuring this stuff out than koreans. The koreans will come up with the best builds and keep them secret and crush the foreigners.
Korea has stagnated. They sent Savior, Hwasin and Stork to WCG 2007. Savior was thought of as some unmovable monster. Hwasin was going to destroy everyone and meet him in the finals. Stork was a strong protoss but nobody ever really thought he'd do anything. Well Stork had to slay hwasin and Savior lost to Mondragon/Pj (even with map imbalance favoring Savior vs Mondragon). Stork struggled with WhiteRa and his own lack of intelligence. The key issue here is none of them really looked untouchable. Stork turned it on in the finals but he very well could have been caught with his pants down due to his pride/arrogance against WhiteRa. That was then though. I would argue that Korea save for Flash lacks the super weapon they have had in the past. That being said players of Flash's level aren't even guranteed to make it out. Players like Boxer, Nada and others have in their prime failed to make a WCG (note: yes they HAVE quali'd but they have also failed). Korean WCG is a crackpot. Their level ofplay has evened out so a clear winner is almost impossible to predict. Even if you disagree you would have to agree that at the very least their is a better chance this year that at least 1 maybe 2 will sneak in that nobody would suspect. Don't agree? State 2-3 players you can give a strong percentage to that would make it this year. Jaedong, Flash and Mind would seem like nice picks huh? Just watch.
Korea has stagnated? You sit there saying that the level of play has evened out so much that you cannot predict anyone qualifying for Korea WCG team for sure then you say this makes the chances higher for foreigners? I don't get it. If the level of play in Korea is leveling out it means everyone is getting better, more solid, more perfect, more close to the best. If thats the case then there are less chances of WCG Korea ending up sending some fluke that could possibly lose to the foreigners. As far as Korea stagnating...lol where the fuck do you get that, I watch games on TV every day and I can tell you they are getting better and better at even faster and more impressive rates in the past. Nothing is stagnating, shit is developing just as fast as ever if not faster while the foreign market still has newbies like Nony flying shuttles into goons.
Lastly, the gaming level of non koreans is higher than it ever has been. I would argue, even in relation to koreans. We have never been closer to their skill (since koreans "took off" which is post 1999~2000 or so). Mondragon is in his best shape of recent history and with TSL backing into WCG I would contend his previous 3rd place finish would only act as a motivator for the ultimate prize now being a realistic goal for him. Draco has proven that at the drop of a hat he can retake the throne as one of the most dominant players and I think even he will be hard pressed to avoid this WCG given the shape he is in. Ret is one of the best foreigners. His TvZ and ZvT make him a real threat against anyone. Given more time and tougher training (TOT) he will be even more scary. Strelok/WhiteRa have never been as good as they are now. Especially Strelok, he just won ASUS (Debut) and is winning tourneys almost weekly. I could go on but my point is that the foreigner gaming base is not consolidated into a Testie, Mondragon, Draco but rather spread out with Dreiven, Nony, JF, Strelok, Mondragon etc etc being all around that level we have more players of that potential with MORE of a chance to take advantage of a easy bracket or a arrogant korean (note: this does not mean koreans are arrogant but rather they may have never heard of a "nony" and then suddenly they are down a game and have to climb back up vs a confident top tier protoss who has trained like a boxer for the past 6 months). We also have a player in korea training with IdrA. He will be participating in USA WCG and if he doesn't make it out that just means the level of gaming HERE is so high that even the token white professional couldn't hack it with the level being so high. I think he very well could but this is just a signifier of either way, it being a good thing for us as a community.
I somewhat agree with you here. The foreign level of play is much much higher than it was in the past. There are a lot of really good players on a foreign level now but you are VASTLYunderestimating the gap between the top foreigners and the Koreans by a lot. About Idra, Idra is not a token white professional. For the time being he is an avg USA macro player that was able to win a small tournament full of newbies invited by PeurtoRican (LOL) to get a lucky spot on team E-Stro. He still has a lot to prove and a lot of improving to do if he wants to prove that stuff. I'm not saying he can't do it but it certainly takes time and one year is not enough. If he gets raped at WCG USA it's not some huge statement about the level of play in the USA, but rather a statement about his inadequacy as a player and a statement about his inability to advance to a higher level as a player (as was the case with me when I lost in WCG USA).
My prediction is completely speculative and only serves the purpose of 1. establishing my prediction so I can look like a genius when it comes true and 2. start a discussion.
1. Two of the top 3 in WCG will be non-koreans. Big woop? We had that happen this year. Sure, but I am predicting what nobody did last year and I think a repeat will be more epic.
2. For the first time a WCG winner will be from a country that isn't Korea.
3.This will be the last WCG with SCBW on the ticket. Korea will have to sit and stew on their greatest defeat.
1. I predict one foreigner will be top three. Upsets do happen as there is a lot of luck in starcraft and Koreans can potentially knock each other out (plus 3284032 foreigners vs 3 koreans), but their level of play is so high that they can safely get two into the top 3 even if they are unlucky.
2. Impossible and I will bet anyone any amount of money that a Korean will win.
3. I disagree, this certainly isn't the last year and I even think it's possible we see a WCG that contains SC and SC2. Or have a side event for the spectators where the top 8 of the SC2 tourney have a little SC1 nostalgia tournament.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
On May 28 2008 06:18 Pellucidity wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2008 06:01 Rekrul wrote:
it's just hilarious to me that a guy that clicks the unit boxes to macro can even think he has the know how and knowledge to compare foreigners to koreans and rate their chances of success against them
foreigners have gotten better because of the latency stuff, but koreans are also making strategical and technical leaps and bounds all the time as well that still keep them lightyears ahead of the whiteman Oh, you mean the leaps we get to observe every single day? Yeah gosh... How will we ever figure those out.
Foreigners do not possess the speed and technical skills needed to correctly implement all the amazing things Koreans are able to do nowadays. Even if foreigners can observe them in replays or VODs they are not capable of implementing them.
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First of all, the gap isn't half as big as you want to make it look. Secondly, Sure they can, why wouldn't they be able to? We have technical and non-technical players just like the Koreans do, they may be somewhat faster, but faster isn't always better.
And last but not least, even if they wouldn't be able to use them themselves, they'd still know what they're up against, which gives an edge. It just does. You can whine, cry and rebel all you want, but it simply won't work.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
On May 28 2008 06:37 Pellucidity wrote:
First of all, the gap isn't half as big as you want to make it look. Secondly, Sure they can, why wouldn't they be able to? We have technical and non-technical players just like the Koreans do, they may be somewhat faster, but faster isn't always better.
And last but not least, even if they wouldn't be able to use them themselves, they'd still know what they're up against, which gives an edge. It just does. You can whine, cry and rebel all you want, but it simply won't work.
No, you're just an idiot.
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On May 28 2008 06:39 Rekrul wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2008 06:37 Pellucidity wrote:
First of all, the gap isn't half as big as you want to make it look. Secondly, Sure they can, why wouldn't they be able to? We have technical and non-technical players just like the Koreans do, they may be somewhat faster, but faster isn't always better.
And last but not least, even if they wouldn't be able to use them themselves, they'd still know what they're up against, which gives an edge. It just does. You can whine, cry and rebel all you want, but it simply won't work.
No, you're just an idiot.
Good solid counter there. 15 - 0 gg
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
lol...
We have technical and non-technical players just like the Koreans do, they may be somewhat faster, but faster isn't always better.
For your information, all korean players are extremely technical and there are no foreigners that have come very close to that. So that statement was absolutely idiotic.
And last but not least, even if they wouldn't be able to use them themselves, they'd still know what they're up against, which gives an edge. It just does
This statement proves you have no idea why games of starcraft are won which means you have no idea what you are talking about and are unqualified to state your opinion on this matter unless you want to be called an idiot by people who actually know what they are talking about. But who wants that?????
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On May 28 2008 06:44 Rekrul wrote:lol... Show nested quote +
We have technical and non-technical players just like the Koreans do, they may be somewhat faster, but faster isn't always better.
For your information, all korean players are extremely technical and there are no foreigners that have come very close to that. So that statement was absolutely idiotic. Show nested quote +
And last but not least, even if they wouldn't be able to use them themselves, they'd still know what they're up against, which gives an edge. It just does
This statement proves you have no idea why games of starcraft are won which means you have no idea what you are talking about and are unqualified to state your opinion on this matter unless you want to be called an idiot by people who actually know what they are talking about. But who wants that?????
There are several sloppy Korean gamers. I saw them on GomTV and I'll try to look for them later. (i.e. no depot next to the CC to make the SCV get out faster, no larva/overlord hold positions spamming, no shortening of the pathfinding routes)
As for knowing what you're up against, that doesn't just go for starcraft it goes for everything in life. Once you know what you're up against it's easier to deal with. If you KNOW your opponent is extremely technical and if you KNOW what he does (not just build orders but silly technical things that give him a slight edge too) you'll be able to figure out another way to possibly get the edge back and win.
I wouldn't expect you to understand this, because clearly you have the IQ of an earthworm, but that's okay. You keep thinking about minimalistic things, I'll keep thinking about the bigger picture and once the WCG comes we will see. Alright? Awesome.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
LOL...
The Korean's innovations are so strong that even if the foreigner watches and knows all about them it doesn't matter. Their builds and playstyles are not only safe and very strong, but UNPREDICTABLE at the same time, which means even if the player thinks he knows what he's up against, he doesn't. Thats the point that you are failing to see.
IQ is overrated anyways, wisdom is what it's all about.
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On May 28 2008 06:56 Rekrul wrote:
LOL...
The Korean's innovations are so strong that even if the foreigner watches and knows all about them it doesn't matter. Their builds and playstyles are not only safe and very strong, but UNPREDICTABLE at the same time, which means even if the player thinks he knows what he's up against, he doesn't. Thats the point that you are failing to see.
IQ is overrated anyways, wisdom is what it's all about.
And the point you're failing to see is that if they KNOW they're unpredictable they'll scout extra hard. You can't honestly be telling me you don't think knowing what you're up against doesn't help. Do you go into exams ignorant of the material you will be quizzed over? I think not.
I never meant to insinuate Korean players are bad and they have a 50/50% of winning. I'm saying the chance of them winning is getting smaller and smaller, and although we're still behind, we do have a chance of winning.
Do you not take your umbrella with you when the weatherman says there's a 30% chance of rain? (I personally don't because I love the rain lol) but a lot of people do.
Point being neither of us is going to budge and we're just spamming away so the best thing for the two of us to do is to just sit and wait.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
I went into exams ignorant of the material all the time, then again I dropped out after a year and have the IQ of an earthworm.
OF course there is always a very very very very slight chance a foreigner will win, and I do agree with you guys that the chances this year are higher by a very small degree because of a lot of factors combined, but the rise in chances are quite insignificant and not as big as a deal as Incontrol or you seem to think they are.
Anyways, wait we shall.
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On May 28 2008 06:28 Rekrul wrote:
while the foreign market still has newbies like Nony flying shuttles into goons.
Oh, God, why the reminder? (facepalms)
I agree with some of what InC said, but personally I still think Korea has absolutely excellent chances at taking WCG Gold, most likely also grabbing silver and/or bronze. Sure foreigners have gotten A LOT better, but you simply can't say that Koreans aren't improving.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
Hey hey hey look its a guy who has no fucking idea what the non korean scene looks like and hasnt since 2005! Sorry Rekrul but I cannot take a lot of what you say seriously since your truth claims are essentially "koreans are WAY better" NO SHIT? NO FUCKING WAI?
I spent 3/4th of this thread explaining to people I am NOT fucking arguing that suddenly non koreans are as good as fucking koreans. I am arguing that miracles have happened in the past without several factors that are in existance today. Namely LAN latency and higher non-korean gaming level. You are completely detached and have no idea what the foreign gaming level is. You watch a fucking semi final for TSL and take a jab at nony and assume that is his fucking carreer. You understand I can site a dozen situations in wich Nal_rA looked like a fucking twat? Or Boxer should have gone left but went right like a moron? It happens to the best so I have no idea why someone who plays between his classes at Duke should be held to a higher standard. The bottom line is he shouldnt. And he sure as fuck doesnt deserve the rantings of a faggot who slings remarks like he has any kind of clout aside from a huge bankroll (which has no fucking baring here).
You flat ignored my LAN argument because its the fucking crux of my argument and it would take too much brain power + recent experience to discuss legitimately both are things you lack.
You spat that you don't understand how the maps are favoring non-koreans when you quoted my fucking explanation for it. Try reading a god damn post before arguing against it. You argue "they know more" and can "abuse little things on a map" NO FUCKING WAI? SINCE WHEN HAS THAT NOT BEEN THE CASE? Never. But if I can argue that the maps THIS year uniquely add advantages that years previous perhaps didnt I am god damn well going to do that. If you want to rant about some shit that is non-unique feel free but that is completely ignorant to the discussion.
And here is your argument for "korea is stagnating:"
A. nah uh
B. I watch it on TV
C. THey are gud
WOW Rekrul! Thanks dude. That was fucking deep. You also flat didnt understand my leveling of play in korea and construed it as "well that means they are all nadas now." No. It means they dont have a real super weapon except the growing Flash phenomenon. It means in their WCG a fucking mid level pro can take out one of the "big guns" and go to WCG when he is not nearly as complete of a player as a Flash, Jaedong, Bisu etc. Even if you disagree with this you have to say more than "I think that means they are all gud." That again goes under the NO SHIT catagory.
I saw you post in here and I got all excited cause I was like FINALLY a dude who knows this game and can make some fucking arguments beyond the Carlojin level of "NO, KOREANS ARE GOOD WHITES CANT WIN." But fuck me sideways Rekrul disappoints. Waltzes into this thread and says "NAH UH, THEY ARE GOOD" In wall posts of mind-numbing illogic stamps it with his token slander and calls it a day.
FCUK
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
nah I just like cussing 
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
Incontrol I don't lack anything that you said I lack. You are in no position to say I lack anything as I am the number one authority white man when it comes to korean progamers and their skill levels...while you...we'll you're a box macroer. Maybe Smuft is on par with me though he's been gone for a while so he has some catching up to do. I am fully aware of the recent latency changes and how it effects the game for foreigners as well.
WOW Rekrul! Thanks dude. That was fucking deep. You also flat didnt understand my leveling of play in korea and construed it as "well that means they are all nadas now." No. It means they dont have a real super weapon except the growing Flash phenomenon. It means in their WCG a fucking mid level pro can take out one of the "big guns" and go to WCG when he is not nearly as complete of a player as a Flash, Jaedong, Bisu etc. Even if you disagree with this you have to say more than "I think that means they are all gud." That again goes under the NO SHIT catagory.
What else is there to argue? Nearly as complete of a player? What more evidence should I present than Ï think that means they are all gud." ??? That's all I got and thats all I need. If you want I could write a long post about why the koreans are still a million times better than the foreigners, but thats not necessary as everyone here knows it (except you apparently). Any mid level pro that knocks out Bisu Flash or Jaedong has 10x the skill they need to walk over any foreigner easily despite how sloppy or 'incomplete' you may think they are. If you don't believe me look at ret's post. He said very quickly and bluntly that you're wrong about how the foreigners chances have been effected. If one of the very gosus you were talking about that gives foreigners a bigger chance is disagreeing with you...how can you continue to talk? It's absolute nonsense.
Anyways, I agree with you on all your points of why the foreigners chances are raised, but I'm saying the rise in chances is very minimal, from like say 8% chance of a foreigner winning WCG going to 10% chance of a foreigner winning WCG this year. The way you formed your post you made it seem like they went from an 8% chance to a 30% chance of winning WCG which is absolutely ridiculous. Thats all I'm trying to say.
BTW the Nony comment was a joke, I know he's good, no need to get all riled when I jab at one of your friends, little one.
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Although many of the players debating here are far better than I, in fact several are foreign gosus, I feel like some of them that foreigners aren't going to take this WCG. In fact, there's only one name that stands a chance I think, and that chance is 100%.
+ Show Spoiler +
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FConnectionUK
United States316 Posts
On May 28 2008 16:30 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
FCUK
FCUK w00t w00t!
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There will always be naysayers.
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InControl, while you bring up some good points, I do agree with Rekrul that you are making it seem like the chance of foreigners has gone up a ton. That isn't the point you're trying to make, but if you're trying to get other people to understand your point, the onus is kind of on you as the writer to get your point across more clearly. Not everybody has good reading comprehension - it's kind of a fact of life (and definitely a fact of an online forum...), so you can either have only the smart people with good reading comprehension understand your points, or you can change the way you're explaining things and have more people understand your point. Can't have it both ways.
One thing that I think has gotten lost in all the flaming and all the "REREAD MY POST IDIOT" talk is the claim that the level of play in Korea has stagnated. I think this is really, really false. People who are better at the game than I am can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think players as a whole have gotten significantly better in the last year to two years. It seems to me that the best players have less flaws than the best players a year or two ago had, and the medium level players have less flaws than the medium level players a year or two ago had.
Take a look at the list of players that got top 4 in OSL or MSL since 2006. Next to each player, I've commented as to whether I think that player is currently a top 5 player in his race today.
MSL
ChoJJa (no)
Savior (no )
Oov (no)
MuMyung (no)
Nal_rA (no)
Kingdom (no)
Midas (no)
Silver (no)
JJu (no)
Bisu (yes)
Hwasin (yes)
Stork (yes)
GoRush (no)
FBH (no to maybe)
Mind (yes)
Xellos (no)
Jaedong (yes)
Kal (yes)
Jangbi (yes)
Notice how almost all the "yes" answers come from very recently....
OSL
Oov (no)
July (maybe ... only a recent resurgence has changed this)
Pusan (no)
Casy (no)
Chojja (no)
Yellow (no)
Jju (no)
Nada (maybe)
Anytime (yes to maybe)
Midas (no)
Goodfriend (no)
Savior (no)
Iris (no)
GGPlay (no)
Stork (yes)
Flash (yes and if he makes it to WCG he will ANNIHILATE everyone)
Jaedong (yes)
Bisu (yes)
UpMagic (no)
Luxury (yes)
Some of these might be up for debate but I think I got most of them about right. For the record, I have (in no particular order):
P: Best, Kal, Stork, Bisu, Jangbi, Much, Anytime, Rock? Free?
Z: Jaedong, Luxury, July, 815, Kwanro, Yarnc, Rumble?
T: Flash, Mind, Sea, Hwasin, Canata? Nada? FBH? forGG? Ruby?
I might have left off a guy here or there but nobody that would contradict my list above.
What is apparent is that many players that were good enough to be TOP 4 IN A STARLEAGUE as recently as 2 1/2 years ago have completely dropped off the map. Sure, some of it is retirement, lack of motivation, etc., but some of it is also that the overall level of play has gone up a lot.
So what's my overall point? Basically, it's true that foreigners have gotten better and that LAN latency will help that. But, historically, another argument for foreigners being able to steal a win at WCG is that the very best Korean players don't always even make it to WCG, because of the rigors of the qualification process. However, this argument is actually WEAKER than it has been in the past, because even the "average" Korean A-class pro is now better than one or two years ago, and thus Korea actually has a wider pool of unstoppable monsters to send.
For example, we all agree that if Flash, Jaedong, and Best are sent to WCG, the Koreans will probably absolutely annihilate everyone. However, say Korea sends Ruby, Yellow[arnc], and Free. Not exactly a murderer's row. But, I'd venture to say Ruby today is better than Oov was in 06, Yellow[arnc] today is better than July was in 06. Maybe Best today isn't better than Stork was in 07 but Stork did win, after all.... Even if Korea sent Ruby + Yellow[arnc] + Best, would things really look that much easier for foreigners? Not in my opinion. And this is if disaster strikes and somehow none of Flash, Jaedong, Mind, Best, Kal, etc., manage to make it. Ruby/Yarnc/Free only look so/so because of the overall level of play now (at least in my opinion).
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So..... Danny boy...
Age old question for you.
A+ +MH or Progamer???
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everybody so tense. this makes me lol.
inc likes mallcore.
rek's token quotes are lame.
inc follows bw closely.
rek was a progamer.
who to listen to? =[
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Why don't TL try to organize this:
Razer TSL winner vs Some progamer
it would be amazing !
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i'm willing to bet 3$ that any given korean B-team player would crush the TSL winner in a BO7 with 4-0 or 4-1
yep, 3$!
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is awesome32274 Posts
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On May 30 2008 20:48 snowbird wrote:
i'm willing to bet 3$ that any given korean B-team player would crush the TSL winner in a BO7 with 4-0 or 4-1
yep, 3$!
Pokju vs TSL winner could be interesting imo.
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Koreans let a foreigner get to the final every second year;
Elky 2001
Fisheye 2003, Grrrr 3rd
Androide 2005, Legionnaire 3rd
PJ 2007, Mondragon 3rd
In 00, 02, and 04 a foreigner took 3rd, NTT, Elky and Beast respectively. In 06 the koreans owned it up and took 1st,2nd,3rd.
Chances are they'll rape it up this year if history repeats itself.
The 06 lineup is the best they've sent, and if they send anything remotely close(IE guys like Flash, Jaedong, Best, Sea, Mind, Bisu) they will most likely rape it up. If they send guys like Up, Hwasin, Iris, foreigners might have a chance.
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well if draco can come back from inactivity and beat everyone 3-0 without much practice I would say our chances are very slim.
we probably couldnt even have beaten oov july and whats his name back in 2006 with the skill we have today.
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in 04 Beast from Bulgaria took 3rd Guybrush.
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On May 31 2008 07:48 Guybrush wrote:
Koreans let a foreigner get to the final every second year;
Elky 2001
Fisheye 2003, Grrrr 3rd
Androide 2005, Legionnaire 3rd
PJ 2007, Mondragon 3rd
In 00, and 02 a foreigner took 3rd, NTT and Elky respectively. In 04 and 06 the koreans owned it up and took 1st,2nd,3rd.
Chances are they'll rape it up this year if history repeats itself.
The 06 lineup is the best they've sent, and if they send anything remotely close(IE guys like Flash, Jaedong, Best, Sea, Mind, Bisu) they will most likely rape it up. If they send guys like Up, Hwasin, Iris, foreigners might have a chance.
Lol
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On May 29 2008 01:02 Ancestral wrote:Although many of the players debating here are far better than I, in fact several are foreign gosus, I feel like some of them that foreigners aren't going to take this WCG. In fact, there's only one name that stands a chance I think, and that chance is 100%. + Show Spoiler +
Haha nice spoiler, but he needs to get the rusts off. His mechanics won't cut it atm...
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On May 31 2008 11:10 Beside_kr wrote:
in 04 Beast from Bulgaria took 3rd Guybrush.
Right, thanks.
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Well, remember wcg 2005? The wcg where Silent_Control and Xellos got eliminated and fOru, 24 at that time, went up against the very young Androide? It was like BoxeR beating Flash. Korea time in time again proved to us that they can pull miracles when necessary.
But I also have to admit that their chances and dominance has slimmed over the years. Take Oov vs Mondragon for example, Oov lost to a proxy gate, well, every progamer have their bad days. But Savior losing last year was a little unexpected.
We'll just have to see next year.
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On May 31 2008 07:48 Guybrush wrote:
Koreans let a foreigner get to the final every second year;
Elky 2001
Fisheye 2003, Grrrr 3rd
Androide 2005, Legionnaire 3rd
PJ 2007, Mondragon 3rd
In 00, 02, and 04 a foreigner took 3rd, NTT, Elky and Beast respectively. In 06 the koreans owned it up and took 1st,2nd,3rd.
Chances are they'll rape it up this year if history repeats itself.
The 06 lineup is the best they've sent, and if they send anything remotely close(IE guys like Flash, Jaedong, Best, Sea, Mind, Bisu) they will most likely rape it up. If they send guys like Up, Hwasin, Iris, foreigners might have a chance.
Wtf, no?!
Tell me who out of the current crop of top foreigners would come close to beating Hwasin, Up or Iris in a bo3?
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terrans can always lose to foreign tosses, thats been proven many times.
flash maybe not, but others like those 3, certainly.
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On May 23 2008 12:48 Last Romantic wrote:
With a modernized map pool and players like By.Flash I don't see foreigners taking it.
Have you seen Flash recently? Fucking untouchable.
vs Rock and vs Yarnc and vs Magma and vs Jangbi he was just like 'you can have the first 10 minutes of the game. I'm going to kill you anyway'. And did just that.
What the hell. Against Jangbi he didn't even scout.
I hope foreigners put up a good fight, and show good games, but I honestly don't see it happening.
he didnt scout vs best and lost.
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PJ vs savior made me realize how having a vast knowledge of a map can help you win a series vs a better player. PJ did all these small things like that dt attack on an expo to the far right while pumping and hunting sairs, killing his 2nd base extractor with goons and literally, "containing" savior by taking up the mid.
But seriously, white people are going to get raped, no doubt about it, the maps are in no way favor of them this time around. They've all been played in the pro-gaming circuit for some time and even current maps follow similar patterns to that of the wcg maps.
^to above:
Even though flash didn't scout, he pumped goliaths nearly the same time the carriers came on by. And even after losing his expansion, he held off attacks many terrans would lose at that point.
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IMO it's too early to say if the top3 will be crowded with koreans or foreigners have a better chance than ever or anything like that. Basically because we don't know who we will be facing. It won't be the same facing Flash/Bisu/Jaedong or Hwasin/Luxury/Much. I think the slim chances foreigners have depend a lot on the combo that comes out of WCG Korea.
And since there are so many possible combinations, I think that more than focusing in "do foreigners have a chance overall?" it should be more like: "if we get this or that we might have a chance, and I especially think this one has some chances to qualify since he got dropped from OSL and MSL and WCG will be his only chance in months to get some prize money".
The best foreigners can hope for is to get someone cocky and arrogant who will underestimate his opponent and get burned. It will be best if he also is sort of irregular. Dunno, I'd like to get guys like Light or go.go. Flash is cocky and arrogant, but he is just on another level. Maybe Sea.
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I don`t see Jaedong and Flash placing any other place than 1st and 2nd ...i d be suprised if they lost a single game : o
wcg 2007 its not about skill of non koreans , rather koreans who can`t show their full potential, to rise the korean flag in national tournament is the bigest honor , they get stressed or want it too much .. w/e , just what they play at wcg isn`t their best, at least not for all...
Just sAviOr ... fuck I hated Pj for that 2;1 : / Who the fuck seen sAviOr loosing to rush on PA or loosing 6 overlords to one stupid dumb lucky corsair : / Its so sad when such an inferior player wins with a dumb stupid luck :/
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PJ did all these small things like that dt attack on an expo to the far right while pumping and hunting sairs, killing his 2nd base extractor with goons and literally, "containing" savior by taking up the mid.
Where is Savior doing small things ? Loosing exp to ONE fucking DT ? Loosing 6 ols ? He didn`t play what he could, Pj was so fucking no chance vs him but luck/mentality > even bigest gap of skill ...sometimes .. I HATE PJ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GTFO!!!!!!!!!!!
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Who is this Savior guy anyway? Just some slumping ex-Maestro.
I honestly think that any good korean progamer is above any top foreigner. And I'm saying a good progamer, not even a top20. Top20 would just mean rape. A decent progamer would still have an over 50% win ratio against any top foreigner. Not saying that his progamer will own, but in a 30 game basis, I would still say like 20w/10L at most. Obviously if that was Flash, it would most likely be 28w/2L.
What I am trying to say is that if a decent progamer qualifyies for WCG then the chances are sort of hopeful. Seriously, if let's say, ZerO qualified, I still think he is a better zerg than Mondi, who is arguably the best foreigner zerg ever. However, it's not like an impossible long shot thinking of beating him in a bo3 by any top foreigner. At least not as impossible as it sounds if it were Jaedong.
There are like 50 possible progamers that can make it into the WCG2008, and as long as the big names are too busy preparing for their OSL/MSL/PL and get a little unlucky, who is to say that we won't see a korean expedition formed by Magma, TheStc and Justin? Ok, maybe chances are slim, but how about Magma, Justin and let's say... the career finished GoodFriend? I mean, you gotta pray if you want the gods of bw to hear you.
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better ask who was that Savior ;o
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On June 02 2008 00:50 RamenStyle wrote:
Not saying that his progamer will own, but in a 30 game basis, I would still say like 20w/10L at most. Obviously if that was Flash, it would most likely be 28w/2L.
If Flash was given any incentive to care at all, any outcome other than 30-0 would surprise me a lot.
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even if flash wasn't caring, and he would lose like 50$ for every win, he would win 30-0
hes so good he cant even lose if he tries...
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In the five years I have religiously followed WCG I have reached the following conclusion:
+ Show Spoiler +
That is all.
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i think once sc2 is out there is a high chance that sc bw orig will no longer be part of wcg, how ever that also depends on the success of sc2.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
I cannot believe how ignorant you people are.
CC3 was launched like a month before WCG and was on the bill before it was even released. It went to WCG with tremendous balance issues and was flat out not a great game. WCG isn't about the game competition it is a giant marketing venture. Of course SC2 will be on the earliest WCG bill and for me, that is the one following this WCG. That means they wont slaughter the draw SC2 has by leaving an established 10+ year old game on the bill.. why in God's name would any economically minded businessman leave a distracting and alienating product on a huge line when you can ride the hype fully and give all attention to the NEW game? This is my attempt to explain what has already been done countless times... This is the safest prediction I have ever made and if ANYONE wants to bet me money on PokerStars or paypal that WCG will NEVER have SC1 and SC2 on the same bill I would gladly accept it.
The gauntlet has been thrown and nobody will accept so I suspect it best if you all drop that one. My other 2 predictions are obviously discussion oriented and impossble to prove prior to the results (as zany as my prediction may be).
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On June 05 2008 02:07 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
I cannot believe how ignorant you people are.
CC3 was launched like a month before WCG and was on the bill before it was even released. It went to WCG with tremendous balance issues and was flat out not a great game. WCG isn't about the game competition it is a giant marketing venture. Of course SC2 will be on the earliest WCG bill and for me, that is the one following this WCG. That means they wont slaughter the draw SC2 has by leaving an established 10+ year old game on the bill.. why in God's name would any economically minded businessman leave a distracting and alienating product on a huge line when you can ride the hype fully and give all attention to the NEW game? This is my attempt to explain what has already been done countless times... This is the safest prediction I have ever made and if ANYONE wants to bet me money on PokerStars or paypal that WCG will NEVER have SC1 and SC2 on the same bill I would gladly accept it.
The gauntlet has been thrown and nobody will accept so I suspect it best if you all drop that one. My other 2 predictions are obviously discussion oriented and impossble to prove prior to the results (as zany as my prediction may be).
You have a point, they did drop cs for cs:s for a year, however then brought back cs.
WCG sucks ass anyway though.
I really hope that SC2 will bring forth more of an esports scene in the US... but that's only a small possibility.
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This thread seems full of really really angsty kids who have some deep-seated hatred for Korean people. And, why is everyone referring to the foreign scene as "white man," or "white people," I thought the foreign scene included everyone outside of Korea. Last I checked, JF looked kind of yellow to me >_>. Same with PJ. And PJ's the one who keeps getting referred to as "the foreigner who beat Savior and got silver." So, why so much weird racism and animosity??
I can understand envy of the Korean scene. I think a gamer of any other nation would feel that. We all love playing PC games, but nowhere in the world has the kind of cultural and financial support that S. Korea provides their gamers. I'm horribly envious of it and I wish the USA supported games besides fucking Halo and GTA. But that's just the population/culture we have -_-.
I think people sometimes need to examine their feelings and not let that envy turn into resentment/hate. And on the flipside, arrogance is never appealing. I'm sure, as an American, I can cite numerous industries in which the USA wtfpwns S.Korea (starting with military defense AKA REAL fighting!). Except, that would be lame, full of e-peen, and would prove nothing other than I have a shallow understanding of what's important in life.
I love the S.Korean e-sport scene, I wish it would develop that way in other parts of the world, and I really wish all the e-sport communities could combine into an international forum of competition. Maybe as IT infrastructure improves, we will see this happening in our lifetimes. But it should be seen as a shared joy, not as a source of resentment, racial enmity, or proof of superiority in any way, shape, or form. God knows enough people are pissed off with dumb ass American kids spouting off about nuking people every time they run into a foreigner who gets them angry.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
yeah so just ignore the above post.
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I loled, foreigners will get yet again, smashed and pwn.
INc what you say ain't true, every single fucking year, you hear foreigners going :" blah blah, this one is so good he has a shot at killing all koreans lololol" and then what ? they get owned right in the eye.
Foreigners are NO WHERE, as anything remotely close to Korean pro scene. The only things that can make a Korean pro gamer lose abroad are :
a) because he fuck cares about the tournament and is just happy to have won national qualifers
b) because he is sick
I could go on explaining you why you are so wrong but meh, pointless really.
PS : I secretly cheer every year myself for any foreigner to come on top. But i really don't see it happening.
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On June 06 2008 14:55 EGoldman wrote:
This thread seems full of really really angsty kids who have some deep-seated hatred for Korean people. And, why is everyone referring to the foreign scene as "white man," or "white people," I thought the foreign scene included everyone outside of Korea. Last I checked, JF looked kind of yellow to me >_>. Same with PJ. And PJ's the one who keeps getting referred to as "the foreigner who beat Savior and got silver." So, why so much weird racism and animosity??
I can understand envy of the Korean scene. I think a gamer of any other nation would feel that. We all love playing PC games, but nowhere in the world has the kind of cultural and financial support that S. Korea provides their gamers. I'm horribly envious of it and I wish the USA supported games besides fucking Halo and GTA. But that's just the population/culture we have -_-.
I think people sometimes need to examine their feelings and not let that envy turn into resentment/hate. And on the flipside, arrogance is never appealing. I'm sure, as an American, I can cite numerous industries in which the USA wtfpwns S.Korea (starting with military defense AKA REAL fighting!). Except, that would be lame, full of e-peen, and would prove nothing other than I have a shallow understanding of what's important in life.
I love the S.Korean e-sport scene, I wish it would develop that way in other parts of the world, and I really wish all the e-sport communities could combine into an international forum of competition. Maybe as IT infrastructure improves, we will see this happening in our lifetimes. But it should be seen as a shared joy, not as a source of resentment, racial enmity, or proof of superiority in any way, shape, or form. God knows enough people are pissed off with dumb ass American kids spouting off about nuking people every time they run into a foreigner who gets them angry.
what are you talking about? lol
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On June 06 2008 17:29 Boonbag wrote:
I loled, foreigners will get yet again, smashed and pwn.
INc what you say ain't true, every single fucking year, you hear foreigners going :" blah blah, this one is so good he has a shot at killing all koreans lololol" and then what ? they get owned right in the eye.
Foreigners are NO WHERE, as anything remotely close to Korean pro scene. The only things that can make a Korean pro gamer lose abroad are :
a) because he fuck cares about the tournament and is just happy to have won national qualifers
b) because he is sick
I could go on explaining you why you are so wrong but meh, pointless really.
PS : I secretly cheer every year myself for any foreigner to come on top. But i really don't see it happening.
Yeah thanks for this input. It isnt like I made an argument or anything. It isn't like nobody is saying suddenly we are just as good as the pros. nah, I think you got it pretty well dude. Thanks for this insight on page 10. We hadnt covered any of this.
Fantastic poster you are sir. Fantastic.
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United States10774 Posts
Korean semi-pros/famous amateurs>>Best foreigners.
Doesn't take a Flash/Jaedong to win WCG lol
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On June 06 2008 23:56 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2008 17:29 Boonbag wrote:
I loled, foreigners will get yet again, smashed and pwn.
INc what you say ain't true, every single fucking year, you hear foreigners going :" blah blah, this one is so good he has a shot at killing all koreans lololol" and then what ? they get owned right in the eye.
Foreigners are NO WHERE, as anything remotely close to Korean pro scene. The only things that can make a Korean pro gamer lose abroad are :
a) because he fuck cares about the tournament and is just happy to have won national qualifers
b) because he is sick
I could go on explaining you why you are so wrong but meh, pointless really.
PS : I secretly cheer every year myself for any foreigner to come on top. But i really don't see it happening. Yeah thanks for this input. It isnt like I made an argument or anything. It isn't like nobody is saying suddenly we are just as good as the pros. nah, I think you got it pretty well dude. Thanks for this insight on page 10. We hadnt covered any of this. Fantastic poster you are sir. Fantastic.
Youre such a flaming failure haha
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The problem with the foreign scene is the lack of innovation. When was the last time a foreigner showed up with his own style? ...NTT? Or came up with a new successful strategy? All we ever do is analyze Korean strategies and copy them. We've gotten better, yes, better and quicker when it comes to copying Korean strategy (thanks to the aforementioned availability of LAN). I don't think any foreigner can, on a consistent basis, out execute the Korean strategies that Korean players practice every freaking day with semi pro practice partners. Just over a year ago, I remember Zerg dominated Protoss, and everyone yelled imba. Between then and now Bisu came up independently with a build and style that everyone's now copying. I remember it was a time when people were giving up the fast gas corsair builds for constant 2gates, so it's not impossible.
Just think, Koreans have people that just sit there and think about the game, then they have people who go and execute those strategies. As a community, not everyone needs to be a pro at executing but I think our understanding of the game and innovative ability is lacking.
One of the biggest advantages is that we can see how they play but if we come up with something new, they probably won't know about it.
Anyways, I doubt there'll be a significant change within a few months so here's a quick way to defeat the Koreans. All the foreigners have to agree to flip a coin before every match. If it's heads, they go 5pool/bbs/cannon-rush-or-whatever (sorry, I haven't played in quite a while so I don't know what the cheeses are anymore). Tails, they go 12cc/12nexus/whatever. Or if there's a random number generator or something, a third chance of going standard play. If all the foreigners did this, there's going to be an occurrance where the pro-gamer guesses wrong twice (bo3) and lose. This assumes that foreign gamers are of course willing to give up individual goals and just work together to knock out the Koreans.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On June 07 2008 00:55 Boonbag wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2008 23:56 {88}iNcontroL wrote:On June 06 2008 17:29 Boonbag wrote:
I loled, foreigners will get yet again, smashed and pwn.
INc what you say ain't true, every single fucking year, you hear foreigners going :" blah blah, this one is so good he has a shot at killing all koreans lololol" and then what ? they get owned right in the eye.
Foreigners are NO WHERE, as anything remotely close to Korean pro scene. The only things that can make a Korean pro gamer lose abroad are :
a) because he fuck cares about the tournament and is just happy to have won national qualifers
b) because he is sick
I could go on explaining you why you are so wrong but meh, pointless really.
PS : I secretly cheer every year myself for any foreigner to come on top. But i really don't see it happening. Yeah thanks for this input. It isnt like I made an argument or anything. It isn't like nobody is saying suddenly we are just as good as the pros. nah, I think you got it pretty well dude. Thanks for this insight on page 10. We hadnt covered any of this. Fantastic poster you are sir. Fantastic. Youre such a flaming failure haha
Wow you are even bad at dissing rofl.
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On June 07 2008 02:53 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2008 00:55 Boonbag wrote:On June 06 2008 23:56 {88}iNcontroL wrote:On June 06 2008 17:29 Boonbag wrote:
I loled, foreigners will get yet again, smashed and pwn.
INc what you say ain't true, every single fucking year, you hear foreigners going :" blah blah, this one is so good he has a shot at killing all koreans lololol" and then what ? they get owned right in the eye.
Foreigners are NO WHERE, as anything remotely close to Korean pro scene. The only things that can make a Korean pro gamer lose abroad are :
a) because he fuck cares about the tournament and is just happy to have won national qualifers
b) because he is sick
I could go on explaining you why you are so wrong but meh, pointless really.
PS : I secretly cheer every year myself for any foreigner to come on top. But i really don't see it happening. Yeah thanks for this input. It isnt like I made an argument or anything. It isn't like nobody is saying suddenly we are just as good as the pros. nah, I think you got it pretty well dude. Thanks for this insight on page 10. We hadnt covered any of this. Fantastic poster you are sir. Fantastic. Youre such a flaming failure haha Wow you are even bad at dissing rofl.
Actually the two of you seem about even there ...
*ducks and runs*
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On June 07 2008 13:40 Djabanete wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2008 02:53 {88}iNcontroL wrote:On June 07 2008 00:55 Boonbag wrote:On June 06 2008 23:56 {88}iNcontroL wrote:On June 06 2008 17:29 Boonbag wrote:
I loled, foreigners will get yet again, smashed and pwn.
INc what you say ain't true, every single fucking year, you hear foreigners going :" blah blah, this one is so good he has a shot at killing all koreans lololol" and then what ? they get owned right in the eye.
Foreigners are NO WHERE, as anything remotely close to Korean pro scene. The only things that can make a Korean pro gamer lose abroad are :
a) because he fuck cares about the tournament and is just happy to have won national qualifers
b) because he is sick
I could go on explaining you why you are so wrong but meh, pointless really.
PS : I secretly cheer every year myself for any foreigner to come on top. But i really don't see it happening. Yeah thanks for this input. It isnt like I made an argument or anything. It isn't like nobody is saying suddenly we are just as good as the pros. nah, I think you got it pretty well dude. Thanks for this insight on page 10. We hadnt covered any of this. Fantastic poster you are sir. Fantastic. Youre such a flaming failure haha Wow you are even bad at dissing rofl. Actually the two of you seem about even there ... *ducks and runs*
actually I wasn't dissing at all. But you'd be wise to not pick fights with 70 posts on this forum. It's a quick way to get banned.
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On June 07 2008 14:17 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2008 13:40 Djabanete wrote:On June 07 2008 02:53 {88}iNcontroL wrote:On June 07 2008 00:55 Boonbag wrote:On June 06 2008 23:56 {88}iNcontroL wrote:On June 06 2008 17:29 Boonbag wrote:
I loled, foreigners will get yet again, smashed and pwn.
INc what you say ain't true, every single fucking year, you hear foreigners going :" blah blah, this one is so good he has a shot at killing all koreans lololol" and then what ? they get owned right in the eye.
Foreigners are NO WHERE, as anything remotely close to Korean pro scene. The only things that can make a Korean pro gamer lose abroad are :
a) because he fuck cares about the tournament and is just happy to have won national qualifers
b) because he is sick
I could go on explaining you why you are so wrong but meh, pointless really.
PS : I secretly cheer every year myself for any foreigner to come on top. But i really don't see it happening. Yeah thanks for this input. It isnt like I made an argument or anything. It isn't like nobody is saying suddenly we are just as good as the pros. nah, I think you got it pretty well dude. Thanks for this insight on page 10. We hadnt covered any of this. Fantastic poster you are sir. Fantastic. Youre such a flaming failure haha Wow you are even bad at dissing rofl. Actually the two of you seem about even there ... *ducks and runs* actually I wasn't dissing at all. But you'd be wise to not pick fights with 70 posts on this forum. It's a quick way to get banned. I survived. >
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
there is still time. But lets stop with the shitty posting and sidetracking of this thread. I know its a task and all but give it a shot.
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On June 06 2008 17:47 snowbird wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2008 14:55 EGoldman wrote:
This thread seems full of really really angsty kids who have some deep-seated hatred for Korean people. And, why is everyone referring to the foreign scene as "white man," or "white people," I thought the foreign scene included everyone outside of Korea. Last I checked, JF looked kind of yellow to me >_>. Same with PJ. And PJ's the one who keeps getting referred to as "the foreigner who beat Savior and got silver." So, why so much weird racism and animosity??
I can understand envy of the Korean scene. I think a gamer of any other nation would feel that. We all love playing PC games, but nowhere in the world has the kind of cultural and financial support that S. Korea provides their gamers. I'm horribly envious of it and I wish the USA supported games besides fucking Halo and GTA. But that's just the population/culture we have -_-.
I think people sometimes need to examine their feelings and not let that envy turn into resentment/hate. And on the flipside, arrogance is never appealing. I'm sure, as an American, I can cite numerous industries in which the USA wtfpwns S.Korea (starting with military defense AKA REAL fighting!). Except, that would be lame, full of e-peen, and would prove nothing other than I have a shallow understanding of what's important in life.
I love the S.Korean e-sport scene, I wish it would develop that way in other parts of the world, and I really wish all the e-sport communities could combine into an international forum of competition. Maybe as IT infrastructure improves, we will see this happening in our lifetimes. But it should be seen as a shared joy, not as a source of resentment, racial enmity, or proof of superiority in any way, shape, or form. God knows enough people are pissed off with dumb ass American kids spouting off about nuking people every time they run into a foreigner who gets them angry. what are you talking about? lol
Just look at Rekrul's threads that constantly talk about WHITE MAN bad!
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Boonbag actually has a plethora of pro-gaming experience, if you haven't read his blogs iNc I suggest you do so :p
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
and yet he was horribly wrong
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On June 06 2008 14:55 EGoldman wrote:
This thread seems full of really really angsty kids who have some deep-seated hatred for Korean people. And, why is everyone referring to the foreign scene as "white man," or "white people," I thought the foreign scene included everyone outside of Korea. Last I checked, JF looked kind of yellow to me >_>. Same with PJ. And PJ's the one who keeps getting referred to as "the foreigner who beat Savior and got silver." So, why so much weird racism and animosity??
I can understand envy of the Korean scene. I think a gamer of any other nation would feel that. We all love playing PC games, but nowhere in the world has the kind of cultural and financial support that S. Korea provides their gamers. I'm horribly envious of it and I wish the USA supported games besides fucking Halo and GTA. But that's just the population/culture we have -_-.
I think people sometimes need to examine their feelings and not let that envy turn into resentment/hate. And on the flipside, arrogance is never appealing. I'm sure, as an American, I can cite numerous industries in which the USA wtfpwns S.Korea (starting with military defense AKA REAL fighting!). Except, that would be lame, full of e-peen, and would prove nothing other than I have a shallow understanding of what's important in life.
I love the S.Korean e-sport scene, I wish it would develop that way in other parts of the world, and I really wish all the e-sport communities could combine into an international forum of competition. Maybe as IT infrastructure improves, we will see this happening in our lifetimes. But it should be seen as a shared joy, not as a source of resentment, racial enmity, or proof of superiority in any way, shape, or form. God knows enough people are pissed off with dumb ass American kids spouting off about nuking people every time they run into a foreigner who gets them angry.
Are you related to Teamliquidsucks? Sure sound as stupid oO
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I like your enthusiasm and your points, but I really don't think it's going to happen.
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United States20661 Posts
How was he horribly wrong? He may not have addressed your points as directly as you may have liked, but his statement that foreigners are nowhere near Koreans seems perfectly correct.
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On June 09 2008 04:43 uppTagg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2008 14:55 EGoldman wrote:
This thread seems full of really really angsty kids who have some deep-seated hatred for Korean people. And, why is everyone referring to the foreign scene as "white man," or "white people," I thought the foreign scene included everyone outside of Korea. Last I checked, JF looked kind of yellow to me >_>. Same with PJ. And PJ's the one who keeps getting referred to as "the foreigner who beat Savior and got silver." So, why so much weird racism and animosity??
I can understand envy of the Korean scene. I think a gamer of any other nation would feel that. We all love playing PC games, but nowhere in the world has the kind of cultural and financial support that S. Korea provides their gamers. I'm horribly envious of it and I wish the USA supported games besides fucking Halo and GTA. But that's just the population/culture we have -_-.
I think people sometimes need to examine their feelings and not let that envy turn into resentment/hate. And on the flipside, arrogance is never appealing. I'm sure, as an American, I can cite numerous industries in which the USA wtfpwns S.Korea (starting with military defense AKA REAL fighting!). Except, that would be lame, full of e-peen, and would prove nothing other than I have a shallow understanding of what's important in life.
I love the S.Korean e-sport scene, I wish it would develop that way in other parts of the world, and I really wish all the e-sport communities could combine into an international forum of competition. Maybe as IT infrastructure improves, we will see this happening in our lifetimes. But it should be seen as a shared joy, not as a source of resentment, racial enmity, or proof of superiority in any way, shape, or form. God knows enough people are pissed off with dumb ass American kids spouting off about nuking people every time they run into a foreigner who gets them angry. Are you related to Teamliquidsucks? Sure sound as stupid oO
Screw you. My point stands. If you have a problem with it, then debate. Don't hurl insults.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On June 09 2008 13:03 Last Romantic wrote:
How was he horribly wrong? He may not have addressed your points as directly as you may have liked, but his statement that foreigners are nowhere near Koreans seems perfectly correct.
Seriously? Did you read his post? He said that the only 2 things that can allow a korean progamer to lose are A. if they dont care or B. if they are sick. FALSE. Historically they have lost several games while trying their darndest I dont want to hear otherwise. Speaking in absolutes is usually moronic. Especially when we have so few examples to go off of and can so easily pick counter evidence that supports the claim that he is a moron.
He stated that non-koreans are nowhere near the top tier professionalkoreans. I stated that that has been said 30 times and at page 10 is uniquely idiotic due to the evident reality that he either didnt read the thread or did and somehow didnt grasp the concept that this has been brought up, quickly dealt with and for the most part moved on.
Those are just a couple of them.. I could go on but I'd rather not walk anyone through that post. It got what it deserved and you are defending him because he lived in korea loved bw and blogged about it on TL. That doesnt make him a fucking force in regard to WCG. So lets stop pampering him. He said something stupid and he can deal with that.
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On June 09 2008 14:56 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2008 13:03 Last Romantic wrote:
How was he horribly wrong? He may not have addressed your points as directly as you may have liked, but his statement that foreigners are nowhere near Koreans seems perfectly correct. Seriously? Did you read his post? He said that the only 2 things that can allow a korean progamer to lose are A. if they dont care or B. if they are sick. FALSE. Historically they have lost several games while trying their darndest I dont want to hear otherwise. Speaking in absolutes is usually moronic. Especially when we have so few examples to go off of and can so easily pick counter evidence that supports the claim that he is a moron. He stated that non-koreans are nowhere near the top tier professionalkoreans. I stated that that has been said 30 times and at page 10 is uniquely idiotic due to the evident reality that he either didnt read the thread or did and somehow didnt grasp the concept that this has been brought up, quickly dealt with and for the most part moved on. Those are just a couple of them.. I could go on but I'd rather not walk anyone through that post. It got what it deserved and you are defending him because he lived in korea loved bw and blogged about it on TL. That doesnt make him a fucking force in regard to WCG. So lets stop pampering him. He said something stupid and he can deal with that.
You're just giving it too much effort dude. See within 15 lines you barely said anything more than "his post was stupid and it's not because he lived in Korea he is right".
So what?
You said I'm wrong - great - I said you were wrong. I have yet to witness a white boy since Elky, qualify for the ongamenet starleague.
And if you think that very last statement I made is plain stupid, then it basically means you have no fucking clue what you're talking about.
WCG has never meant anything for Koreans. Even foreigners that were pro gamers, such as Elky and Grrrr... didn't give a flying fuck about WCG and you can go and ask em because it's the truth.
Grrrr... forfeited from 2 WCGS to play some other Korean event because it wasn't fitting the schedule.
What about you "white elite foreign bw players" try to wipe your ass a little with that shitty pride you get from sucking at a 11 years old game ?
You argue more in your own retarded thread than you actually play this game.
Don't bother replying.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
I havent bothered replying. I just like to laugh at morons
You ignored the part where I said EVERYTHING YOU HAVE SAID WAS ALREADY MENTIONED AND DISCUSSED. YOU ARE SO FUCKING DUMB YOU DONT READ 10 PAGES OF A THREAD BUT SOMEHOW ASSUME THAT PEOPLE HAVENT COVERED THE "KOREANS ARE BETTER ARGUMENT."
Fucking rofl. Go right a blog about how you watched great players play bw in the country you happened to live in. People seem to enjoy personal accounts of what they witnessed. Cause you are fucking bad at applying any kind of logic here. Really fucking bad.
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8748 Posts
Boonbag has such hideous arguments but there's nothing you can do to help him since he can't read.
I was so very surprised when the period came at the end of his post because I was definitely expecting to read "Don't bother replying because I have no reading comprehension."
And it's great I can type this without fear of offending him since, if he even attempts to read this, he'll have no idea what I said and he'll probably reply with some more droning on about Koreans.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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On June 11 2008 01:50 {88}iNcontroL wrote:I havent bothered replying. I just like to laugh at morons You ignored the part where I said EVERYTHING YOU HAVE SAID WAS ALREADY MENTIONED AND DISCUSSED. YOU ARE SO FUCKING DUMB YOU DONT READ 10 PAGES OF A THREAD BUT SOMEHOW ASSUME THAT PEOPLE HAVENT COVERED THE "KOREANS ARE BETTER ARGUMENT." Fucking rofl. Go right a blog about how you watched great players play bw in the country you happened to live in. People seem to enjoy personal accounts of what they witnessed. Cause you are fucking bad at applying any kind of logic here. Really fucking bad.
What other argument is there to discuss ? Wasn't your own op about how a white boy is going to win this WCG ?
And Nony, weren't you the guy, who made that post full of shit, after getting your ass handled to yourself by draco, about how and why you're not the kind of dude who types "GG" ?
I think I saw the two of you before...
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8748 Posts
Boonbag starting with that post I made is probably a bad idea. Look for the one-liners and read very slowly and carefully. Work your way up from there.
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It's amusing to see how you guys sound like a bunch of degenerated egos.
Foreign players of my time weren't any where close to this childish attitude that would make a blizzard forum 13 year old poster actually look down on you like the last retard.
How many "fucking" or "moron", caps and whatelse, contain every single of inc's post?
As for you Nony, all you achieve with your half redundant broken syntax, is to actually sound like an arrogant and ignorant prick.
Get real.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
Alright guyz, I jut got real:
Boonbag is right, the "white boys" of his time like ilnp, NTT, Rekrul, HovZ etc.. never did anything bm. Hell, they were standup decent guys. In fact, had someone come up to them and said, "Hey, Koreans are better than white guys." At page 10 of a debate thread. They'd be like, "Y'know what? I value your opinion and think that is a great point. Guys, lets discuss how a professional broodwar gamer is typically better than an amatuer. Fuck the discussion about factors that may shrink the gap, lets run on wild conclusions that nobody is arguing for and make a very hollow discussion based on it!"
But unfortuntunately for you, we are in contemporary times. Where fucking morons who have credentials from writing a blog about korean progamers get mocked when they are dumb. ESPECIALLY when they have the short-sightedness to defend their idiotic behavior.
I'm gonna say it again, cause despite Nony's pestering about reading comprehension you have yet to wisen up. Here is why your post was dumb, pay close attention plz! The argument you made is 1. Bad, but most importantly 2. Already been said 30 times. Just like 20 or so of the other 30 I jumped on you cause the idea behind the argument is so fucking innane and so amazingly void of any thought that I have to take it upon myself to make that person feel my anger. You ignore this and allude that somehow my arguments are contentless. This is further proof you did not read the thread and MAYBE didnt even read my opening argument. Cause if you actually had an ounce of brain power in you you'd revert to that post and actually make connecting arguments instead of just asserting that what I am saying is that non koreans are suddenly better than professionals.
Read this post very carefully. If you cannot argue with the points made in it back out of the thread and try again on some day when you aren't french.
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Omfg. Yeah I surely won't ever come back here. GL TL with these ppl.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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Koreans are better at playing Starcraft then people outside of Korea
hence they will rape you
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True they don't have to send Flash...however he is Korea's current golden boy and it would be pretty cool to see him mop the floor with foreigners with his armory build
Other personal picks would be Bisu, Mind or Jaedong
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On June 11 2008 03:40 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
NONY WE WON!
HOLY SHIT YOU MUST BE FORUM POST KOREAN PROGAMAER :OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
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First post on TL and I'll make it count! First of all, I'd like to say I have the utmost respect for this site, I love this site, and it's one of the the best site there is. Now that being said, I was convinced of a couple of things while reading through this thread: 1) iNcontroL is related to or is Bill O'reilly. 2) His name is indicative of his personality.
Now flame me if you want, but I'm writing this with honesty. First of all, I believe iNcontroL that you need to calm down and stop using the "Fuck" word and other insults. I'm not your mommy so you don't need to listen to me, but I'm just lettin ya know it's a bad habit to build up. It really does not accomplish anything other than just proving how low a person you are. It also takes away what little you have to say to others (usually not much just either patronizing or telling others to shut the hell up.)
Not to mention, it was you who started this thread for the reason of "starting a discussion." Personally, if you began this thread to have a discussion, then I'd assume you'd take the responsibility to discuss and not insult. Yea, some posts are ignorant and some are dumb as hell from your point of view. However, at least they are discussing, which is what you wanted and what you got. Telling people to shut up is only hypocritical and contradicts the intent of your original post. If you don't like these additional posts then either ignore them or make it clear in your original post that you do not want any more discussion. You might argue that some people are repeating info blah blah blah blah, but that itself does not take away the fact that they are doing what you asked them to do which is discussing the issue.
I could go on, but I came here mainly to discuss some of your statements in your original post. True, some of them have been brought up already by other people, but truthfully I never heard a real reply from you other than that they are stupid, they cannot comprehend, or that they are too stupid to comprehend. Anywho, now that I have probably left a bad taste in your mouth (again nothing personal) I'll talk about some of your points. I'll skip the LAN point right now and move on to the other points.
Point 1: Inclusion of key nations. This argument is weak no matter how you slice and dice it. Somehow the Netherlands and other countries "considering" hosting a WCG gives us more players? You really need to elaborate on this and give us evidence. I can see how more players from the Netherlands and other countries might join if that country is nominated for the WCG, but I don't see how "considering" hosting a WCG makes such a huge difference that it forms the basis of your second point. Personally I have no idea what you mean by "key" nations. And your final point that having a WCG in Germany increases the chance of having more WCG in Europe is completely unsubstantiated. Either give us a link or some proof or you're just throwing things in our face.
Point 2: Maps favor non-Koreans. You talk almost as if foreigners know Peaks/Tau/Gaia better than the Koreans, which is without evidence and highly doubtful. Now, if you were to say that foreigners are closer in knowledge to Koreans in Peaks/Tau/Gaia than Bluestorm than I'd agree with you. True the three maps you mention are out of date in Korea, but progamers have spent more hours on these maps than many of the foreigners have played starcraft. Not to mention, progamers have had the luxury of having these maps analyzed and picked down to the teeth while most foreigners mainly have only the VODs are resources. Again, I agree that foreigners are starting to know some of the maps better, but they have a long way to go before they overtake the Koreans in that field.
Point 3: Korea has stagnated. I actually agree with this point although your wording is real strange. Instead saying Korea has stagnated (which implies that skill levels are not increasing anymore... complete BS) you should've written that Korea talent has become closer. However, what you just wrote actually kinda goes against your overall premise that foreigners have a better chance. If the Korean level has evened then suddenly the difference between a Bisu and low level pro Korean is not that big. Of course Bisu would be the better player, but not by much. So if that low level pro Korean somehow made it onto the WCG, then really the chance of a foreigner winning is not increased drastically because as you said Korea talent has become closer.
Point 4: Level of play of foreigners has increased. I agree completely, but this point is nullified by the fact that the level of Koreans has increased just as much if not more. I look at games this year and last year, and the difference in play is noticeable. A few things I noticed about Koreans these days is that their mechanics are sensational and strategy is extremely tuned. Personally, I think out of all aspects of the game, it's the strategy part that the foreigners will lack. Indeed, the mental aspect of the game is an advantage that is underrated.
Last Point: LAN. Again I agree with you that LAN access will help the foreigners. But truthfully I do not see where you somehow come to the conclusion the LAN access is the saving grace of foreigners. Okay I'm getting tired of writing so I'll write this quickly because it's been said before. If you think LAN will somehow be decisive factor in Starcraft then you're gravely underestimating the complexity of this game (with all due respect to you as I'm sure you are a great player). LAN will not help you deal with the deep strategy of this game such as timing and counter builds. It will not help you calm your nerves when all the pressure in the world is on you. It will have minimal impact on one's macro skills and split-time decision making. It will not help keep your emotions in check and keep your concentration from going haywire. Btw even with LAN, the foreigners would be extremely lucky to have the same micro as Koreans, who have had access to it for years now. Starcraft is first and foremost a strategy game. Only now is it clear that the mental aspect of this game triumphs over anything else. Koreans through years and years of training have started to tap into the mental aspect of this game, whereas foreginers are still behind. LAN has its uses, but it won't make a smidgen in the real difference between Koreans and foreigners... the mental side of the game (when I mean mental I'm talking about strategy, concentration, nerves, emotion, etc).
So overall, I'm not here to bash foreginers. They have definitely improved and I will be cheering for them when the WCG starts. I expect some to defeat the Koreans and take a bronze or silver. However, if you compare the Koreans and foreigners overall there's a significant difference still. Foreigners are improving and getting closer to the Koreans, but I do not think they have improved enough to win the WCG. Btw, iNcontroL I find it funny that you tell others to not speak in absolutes when your entire first post is nothing but absolutes and some with very little evidence at that.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
Oh hey.
Since you took it upon yourself to tell me what I should and shouldn't do as a poster lemme return the favor.
1. I didnt start cussing people out here until it became abundanrly clear that despite my labored efforts to make this a discussion a lot of people seem to want to blurt out "koreans are better" and be done with this. That line of thinking ina debate thread triggers what some call "anger." A fun word to use when angry is "fuck." Does this make me a "low" person? Nope. It makes me angry. That is fine btw. Anger is actually accepted as an ok emotion.
2. Don't post in walls of text. Nobody except me is going to read that. And the only reason I read it is because I have nothing better to do while I wait for my pizza to heat up. And even then I skimmed it, didnt read it fully at all.
3. Telling someone to not speak in absolutes was obviously a paradoxical statement. I am absolutely saying speaking in absolutes is wrong. That paradox should have lead you to believe that perhaps I don't live up to my own standard 100% of the time. In fact I was probably only speaking about the relevant use of the absolute statement for which I referred to. But again, this requires a level of thought power usually lost on the typical poster here which you of course seem to be. In the future however, if someone says "shut up" they probably dont mean "for life." They just mean "what you are saying right now." Anyways, these kind of life lessons will work there way into your brain somehow, that or you will not make it as a human being. Whichever comes first!
4. I'd love to discuss the points of my arguments with you but I am not reading that wall of text for an argument. If you want to make it into an actually readable formate go ahead. But until then it will get ignored.
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im going to summarize:
you say you want a discussion and then you ridicule the people who post and avoid discussion
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Anger is acceptable to an extent, Acting like the omniscent king of the world is another thing. Swearing is one thing. Saying "fuck" every other sentence added onto an ego the size of the Milky Way (God knows why you have one) is another thing. Personally, I do not see why in the world you get angry over what other people say. Btw, discussing is a two way street, not one way. If you wanted people to only look from your side of the view, then no wonder your "labored efforts" were in vain. And trust me, no where in the thread did I see you really try discussing.
Your point 3 only further substantiates just how low a person you are. You just cannot help yourself in insulting someone which I am sure you enjoy. Not to mention, the onus is on you, not me, to make your statements clear to understand. Lack of clarity is usually not a fault of the reader but of the writer. Of course, knowing your type you'll keep blaming others for their "stupidity" instead of acknowleding yours. I'm not the first one to comment on your lack of clarity, and I'm probably not gonna be the last. Btw, here's the format if you want to read, although i meant it for mainly others to read. Feel free to read it, but I'm not dying here waiting for you to reply.
Point 1: Inclusion of key nations. This argument is weak no matter how you slice and dice it. Somehow the Netherlands and other countries "considering" hosting a WCG gives us more players? You really need to elaborate on this and give us evidence. I can see how more players from the Netherlands and other countries might join if that country is nominated for the WCG, but I don't see how "considering" hosting a WCG makes such a huge difference that it forms the basis of your second point. Personally I have no idea what you mean by "key" nations. And your final point that having a WCG in Germany increases the chance of having more WCG in Europe is completely unsubstantiated. Either give us a link or some proof or you're just throwing things in our face.
Point 2: Maps favor non-Koreans. You talk almost as if foreigners know Peaks/Tau/Gaia better than the Koreans, which is without evidence and highly doubtful. Now, if you were to say that foreigners are closer in knowledge to Koreans in Peaks/Tau/Gaia than Bluestorm than I'd agree with you. True the three maps you mention are out of date in Korea, but progamers have spent more hours on these maps than many of the foreigners have played starcraft. Not to mention, progamers have had the luxury of having these maps analyzed and picked down to the teeth while most foreigners mainly have only the VODs are resources. Again, I agree that foreigners are starting to know some of the maps better, but they have a long way to go before they overtake the Koreans in that field.
Point 3: Korea has stagnated. I actually agree with this point although your wording is real strange. Instead saying Korea has stagnated (which implies that skill levels are not increasing anymore... complete BS) you should've written that Korea talent has become closer. However, what you just wrote actually kinda goes against your overall premise that foreigners have a better chance. If the Korean level has evened then suddenly the difference between a Bisu and low level pro Korean is not that big. Of course Bisu would be the better player, but not by much. So if that low level pro Korean somehow made it onto the WCG, then really the chance of a foreigner winning is not increased drastically because as you said Korea talent has become closer.
Point 4: Level of play of foreigners has increased. I agree completely, but this point is nullified by the fact that the level of Koreans has increased just as much if not more. I look at games this year and last year, and the difference in play is noticeable. A few things I noticed about Koreans these days is that their mechanics are sensational and strategy is extremely tuned. Personally, I think out of all aspects of the game, it's the strategy part that the foreigners will lack. Indeed, the mental aspect of the game is an advantage that is underrated.
Last Point: LAN. Again I agree with you that LAN access will help the foreigners. But truthfully I do not see where you somehow come to the conclusion the LAN access is the saving grace of foreigners. Okay I'm getting tired of writing so I'll write this quickly because it's been said before. If you think LAN will somehow be decisive factor in Starcraft then you're gravely underestimating the complexity of this game (with all due respect to you as I'm sure you are a great player). LAN will not help you deal with the deep strategy of this game such as timing and counter builds. It will not help you calm your nerves when all the pressure in the world is on you. It will have minimal impact on one's macro skills and split-time decision making. It will not help keep your emotions in check and keep your concentration from going haywire. Btw even with LAN, the foreigners would be extremely lucky to have the same micro as Koreans, who have had access to it for years now. Starcraft is first and foremost a strategy game. Only now is it clear that the mental aspect of this game triumphs over anything else. Koreans through years and years of training have started to tap into the mental aspect of this game, whereas foreginers are still behind. LAN has its uses, but it won't make a smidgen in the real difference between Koreans and foreigners... the mental side of the game (when I mean mental I'm talking about strategy, concentration, nerves, emotion, etc).
So overall, I'm not here to bash foreginers. They have definitely improved and I will be cheering for them when the WCG starts. I expect some to defeat the Koreans and take a bronze or silver. However, if you compare the Koreans and foreigners overall there's a significant difference still. Foreigners are improving and getting closer to the Koreans, but I do not think they have improved enough to win the WCG. Btw, iNcontroL I find it funny that you tell others to not speak in absolutes when your entire first post is nothing but absolutes and some with very little evidence at that.
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On June 12 2008 04:29 Inladen wrote:
Koreans are better at playing Starcraft then people outside of Korea
hence they will rape you
QFT
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
1. you evidently dont know the foreign scene or how ret at wcg would be a big deal along with other top gamers.
2. you agree with me but are confused by the wording. Yet you manage to reach the conclusion that I was arguing for, splendid.
3. Again the wording is evidently confusing for you yet you manage to get to the conclusion I argue for. Wonderful.
4. You agree but then artificially argue that koreans have actually gotten better at a higher rate than non koreans. You then cite that their level of play is phenominal, which is of course, that idiocy I was mentioning earlier. You claim I have no evidence yet the evidence you site is "koreans play good" wow. Thanks for that.
5. You agree fully with this but then state that you dont know how big of an impact this will have. You then go on to presume I don't understand this game and start to lecture me with "well the game is more complex than just having lan settings." I cannot take a person serious that honestly thinks they are somehow revealing some profound truth. I have played this game for 12 years. I am going to assume that is a lot longer than you. Even if it somehow isnt my level of play and tha amount of time I have spent in those years surely remove any doubt that of the two of us I am the authority and you are the casual onlooker. Let's just for a second assume I understand the game beyong "lan settings."
the overall point: you didnt respond to my point here. It's a good one because I explain the important life lesson about paradoxical statements. Check it out, its a good read.
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If Flash or Jaedong go to WCG, they'll win. Guaranteed. My two cents.
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Now it's clear you cannot debate much less discuss at all. You have no intention of discussing because you know you can't argue the points straight up. Also, you're somehow intent on putting words in my mouth which reminds me again of Bill O'reilly. However, I'll reply once more just because I have some time to kill.
1. you evidently dont know the foreign scene or how ret at wcg would be a big deal along with other top gamers.
I know it quite well. You talk as if ret is the next coming of Christ. He's great but not better than some of the foreign gamers we have seen. Not to mention, you completely miss my point. Read it again. I commented primarily on your unsubstantiated claims about Netherlands considering WCG having such a major impact. Not to mention, I questioned how Germany hosting WCG some increases the chance of more WCG on Europe. You haven't responded at all to these points.
2. you agree with me but are confused by the wording. Yet you manage to reach the conclusion that I was arguing for, splendid.
Wow not only can you not write, but you can't even read correctly what I wrote and what you wrote. Your wrote explicitly that "the maps favor non-Koreans." I disagreed with that and never in your post did you write anything remotely similar to my points.
3. Again the wording is evidently confusing for you yet you manage to get to the conclusion I argue for. Wonderful.
Yes the wording is confusing because it doesn't connect with the point of your paragraph which is that Korea's talent is getting closer. You wrote that "Korea is stagnating" which is wrong and BS and I noted that. I'm not sure where you got the fact that I agreed with you when I wrote that this entire point you were making was not going to be a factor. Or to quote myself (sad I have to do this for you) "However, what you just wrote actually kinda goes against your overall premise that foreigners have a better chance."
4. You agree but then artificially argue that koreans have actually gotten better at a higher rate than non koreans. You then cite that their level of play is phenominal, which is of course, that idiocy I was mentioning earlier. You claim I have no evidence yet the evidence you site is "koreans play good" wow. Thanks for that.
It's here you put words in my mouth. I said the Korean's have gotten better "if" not at a higher rate. My main premise was that your statement that foreigners have gotten better is nullfied by the fact that Koreans have gotten better. My claim that Koreans have gotten better has all the evidence in the world. And I mentioned about the Korean play to talk about the mental aspect of the game, which I said was the determining factor in the skill difference. Also, no where in the paragraph do I claim that you have no evidence, although in others I do and you still can't back it up. Okay next paragraph I'm gonna have to go sentence by sentence because you bring up quite a bit of points.
5. You agree fully with this but then state that you dont know how big of an impact this will have. (Only God knows where you got the fact I agreed with you fully) You then go on to presume I don't understand this game and start to lecture me with "well the game is more complex than just having lan settings." (I don't presume anything and I'm not lecturing you. I'm stating my own opinion) I cannot take a person serious that honestly thinks they are somehow revealing some profound truth. (It's more common sense really not to mention there's another thread on the mental aspect of the game that's quite a good read) I have played this game for 12 years. (Game came out in 1998. I cannot take seriously someone who lies and cannot do math) I am going to assume that is a lot longer than you. (Cannot debate that. Wish I could play starcraft in 1996.) Even if it somehow isnt my level of play and tha amount of time I have spent in those years surely remove any doubt that of the two of us I am the authority and you are the casual onlooker. ("Omniscent king") Let's just for a second assume I understand the game beyong "lan settings." (Your original post leads me to believe otherwise)
the overall point: you didnt respond to my point here. It's a good one because I explain the important life lesson about paradoxical statements. Check it out, its a good read.
I responded to all your points on the contrary. It's you who forgot how to read. Well good day, and I hope your 12 years of starcraft has given you great insight into life.
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I find it hilarious that starcraft is divided into two factions.
Koreans and foreigners
lol
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
yep I cannot debate or discuss anything.
You win. I think ret is christ and you weren't lecturing me you were voicing your opinion.
And yeah starcraft gave me great insight into life.
ROFL
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yep I cannot debate or discuss anything.
I'd have to agree with you on that. Swearing and patronizing you do only too well, but debating and discussing you lack.
I think ret is christ
Figure of speech although I doubt you know that
you weren't lecturing me you were voicing your opinion
Lectures are used as a tool to teach. Why'd I waste my time trying to teach through that brick wall of yours is anyone's guess.
And yeah starcraft gave me great insight into life.
Not just "starcraft." 12 glorious years of starcraft, defying the fact that people cannot travel in time.
You win.
No, it's "NONY WE WON!"
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
lool lool
Jesus its a mirror image of ME
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Valhalla18444 Posts
Closing this because the entire lot of you are fucking retarded
Geoff if you send me some PM about how I'm not your friend anymore because i closed your thread, I'm gonna be pissed
This was a thread that contained a great OP and could have had excellent discussion, but unfortunately every one of you is far too focused on whether or not you're "right" or "the authority", so fuck all of you, this is going in the garbage. Learn how to post like reasonable fucking people.
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Braavos36374 Posts
Guys I think Koreans will win WCG over the foreigners, they are way better because they have starleagues like OSL. Just my two cents.
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EPT
