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On May 22 2008 01:03 Pellucidity wrote:
Mind you Stork VS PJ last year was fairly close (atleast that's the way I remember it).
I myself remember it as a brutal rape. The difference in micro was so ridiculous that in one of the games Stork destroyed PJ losing no more than one or two zealots in the process iirc. This being said I've quite forgotten the other games so I might be wrong.
About foreigners taking WCG this year, well, it would be nice, but I think they'll have to improve a lot until then (TSL can and will surely help). Watching quite a lot of TSL games has left me a major feeling, which is that despite some moments of brilliance, mechanics fail to keep up when the scale of the game grows past a certain point. Either macro or micro takes a dive, depending of the player.
The only hope I can see is a remake of last year's Savior vs PJ with koreans playing very safe and letting their opponent build up a huge econ superiority. Let's just hope there won't be too many terran koreans going to Germany because the simple idea of one of the top20 kespa TvPing a foreigner makes me cringe.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On May 21 2008 12:30 Pellucidity wrote:
On a different note, does anyone know if the WCG final tickets are being sold yet? I've been looking around and I don't think they are but I don't want to be too late like I was with the WWI >_<
P.s. Incontrol did you manage to qualify for the WCG? Not sure what region you're in so I can't tell.
Because I saw you play during the 2007 (I think) WCG qualifiers and you were really good, and I can't help but thinking this post is somehow related to you qualifying yourself for the WCG final and being extremely confident you're going to get us foreigners the gold this year lol. Maybe I'm just reading a little too much into this.
Thanks for the support 
I have yet to qualify but I have the US Open at the end of this month in which the top 2 of 4 get auto seed into USA finals (best option) and then I have at least 2 more pacific qualifiers that I can compete in online coming up shortly after that. I hope to be qualified by one of these options
I dont think of myself as a legitimate threat for the gold so no, my post was not fueled by that. I do think I can make it out of my groups (despite my poor 2007 performance) and maybe do some damage from there. I will work hard like the rest. Thanks for rooting for me though!
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On May 21 2008 11:15 EGoldman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2008 04:38 himurakenshin wrote:
Koreans are too cocky these days, they are just winning because their players practice so much more than non-korean pro's What kind of crap post is this? And a weightlifter is just stronger because he's in the gym so much more than your average Joe. What's your point?? Is this some kind of deep-seated insecurity where in your own little mind you're framing it as some sort of racial competition?? Is this the same sentiment that leads some people to say white people > all because they've been more technologically advanced for the past few centuries? Of course it has everything to do with how much the players train. Korea's SC community is vibrant, popular, and has FINANCIAL support. That goes a long way toward making them superior. That's what the word PROFESSIONAL means. They get paid to do it. I'm sure a NASCAR driver would feel cocky street racing vs some random kid too. Whining about it and pointing out obvious factors doesn't blot out the fact it's true. Korea's SC community is much more competitive than anywhere outside of that. Don't get mad at Korea, get mad at your own country's lack of interest if you're unhappy about foreigners not succeeding.
Koreans are actually very very cocky and proud to a fault when it comes to WCG. I witnessed this first hand. Throwing games to try and set up the bracket a certain way, lying about "not knowing rules" or simply not trying because you dont value your opponent (first whitera vs stork games) are all signs of disrespect. I can hardly blame them but that doesnt mean they dont feel that way. A huge upset and a gold finish for a non korean would jar the scene and make things fun leading into SC2.
(koreans are already beta testing the game.. we are disadvantaged for a game that is yet to be released  )
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On May 22 2008 01:03 Pellucidity wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2008 00:19 RowdierBob wrote:
You can make all the predictions and arguments you want.
At the end of the day, who out the top foreign players would beat players like Flash, Jaedong or Bisu (or any of the top 30 Kespa players)? Be honest now.
Foreign players have improved no doubt, but no where near enough to take down the best Korea has to offer. Mind you Stork VS PJ last year was fairly close (atleast that's the way I remember it).
Point being, he still won 2-0. Foreigners can definitely compete with pros, but they don't have enough caliber in them to take a bo3.
No doubt the quality of the foreigner players has improved a lot since last year, but it still isn't anywhere near enough.
The only chance I'd give them is a very specific and somewhat allin style build.
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I somehow agree with Incontrol. The chances of a foreigner winning gold have never been that high. Yet, what are they? 20%? Maybe less?
Some things favor foreigners indeed : WCG still don't use seeds, what will probably lead to a Korean eliminating another Korean before Ro8.
Foreigners have all the resources they want to get to know their opponent, and can practice for WCG only for months. Whereas Koreans don't know any foreigner (save Draco and Idra, but I don't even think they would bother to study their style), and train for every league except WCG.
This year, the Lan Latency factor evens things for us : I trust Incontrol about this, I couldn't tell myself.
I agree with the fact that many foreigners have never been better, but disagree with the Korean level stagnating. Yet, I believe the 3 Koreans at WCG will NOT be the top 3 (kespa or PR or whatever) : good news for us.
One last factor is that some progamers don't care about WCG and given all of the above, this could lead to an upset. I think Flash is a machine and will crush (or try to) any opponent anytime anywhere. But Jaedong? Didn't you see him toy with Ruby without drones... and lose in the end? What would happen against Brat or Strelok? I think some (most?) pros would just play safe and relaxed, and might be surprised by a better prepared and motivated opponent. But again, winning ONE game is not winning a Bo3, let alone a Bo5.
So, a foreigner might win WCG. But if you took say the top 10 foreigners and had them compete in MSL or OSL, none of them would stand even a remote chance of making it past the group stages, simply because pros would then treat them as serious opponents.
PS : good luck InControl. Hope you can make it to Cologne. I might be able to go there as a spectator, and hopefully cheer for you
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when is WCG gonna happen?
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While I do hope for a foreigner upset for this year's WCG, the probability of such an event is just too small.
Sure, a foreigner win would have a HUGE impact on the starcraft world, but the actual win would be at best a lucky upset against some heavily favored Korean juggernaut (most likely Flash at this point).
Look at Draco during the TSL versus White-ra- both Chill and Artosis time and again praised his mechanics advantage because he spent some time in Korea. And he didn't even accomplish anything in Korea. In straight-up games, any Korean would rape a foreigner. The mechanics difference is just too huge.
Look at Cloud vs. Iefnaij during the TSL. Iefnaij's mechanics were just much better to the point where the two games he did win were just straight-up, one-sided rapes. A Korean's mechanics would be even better than that.
In the end, a foreigner will be able to take a few games through cheese or some kind of build order win, but the mechanical difference is just so huge that if the Koreans don't get too cocky they're untouchable.
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And then we're reminded of what eSTRO's B team did to the foreigners...
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On May 22 2008 13:51 MorningMusume11 wrote:
And then we're reminded of what eSTRO's B team did to the foreigners...
Oh are we just citing random times when a korean beat a foreigner? Ok, can I go next? PJ beat Savior at WCG! Or Testie beat Midas ^_^
yay!
The point being your example doesnt take into account the factors discussed at all and actually doesnt relate in this discussion beyond the fact that its sc and multi ethnic people play it.
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On May 22 2008 14:43 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2008 13:51 MorningMusume11 wrote:
And then we're reminded of what eSTRO's B team did to the foreigners... Oh are we just citing random times when a korean beat a foreigner? Ok, can I go next? PJ beat Savior at WCG! Or Testie beat Midas ^_^ yay! The point being your example doesnt take into account the factors discussed at all and actually doesnt relate in this discussion beyond the fact that its sc and multi ethnic people play it.
once i got beat by a random korean on battle.net
he had like 120APM
i think we're going to lose in WCG cuz of dat
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Russian Federation57 Posts
dont rofl
non koreans will get raped by any of 1-20 kespa
dont rofl
2 of top3 will be koreans without a doubt
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A foreigner winning a WCG would just be a huge boon to the foreign community. It still seems really unlikely, but anything can happen in the span of a few games.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Haypro is swedish.
I don't think we have a WCG this year either? Do we??
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On May 22 2008 14:43 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2008 13:51 MorningMusume11 wrote:
And then we're reminded of what eSTRO's B team did to the foreigners... Oh are we just citing random times when a korean beat a foreigner? Ok, can I go next? PJ beat Savior at WCG! Or Testie beat Midas ^_^ yay! The point being your example doesnt take into account the factors discussed at all and actually doesnt relate in this discussion beyond the fact that its sc and multi ethnic people play it.
Indeed Incontrol =D
Nah I'm just trying to be a douchebag and say that the Koreans will dominate as usual =P
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On May 22 2008 14:43 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2008 13:51 MorningMusume11 wrote:
And then we're reminded of what eSTRO's B team did to the foreigners... Oh are we just citing random times when a korean beat a foreigner? Ok, can I go next? PJ beat Savior at WCG! Or Testie beat Midas ^_^ yay! The point being your example doesnt take into account the factors discussed at all and actually doesnt relate in this discussion beyond the fact that its sc and multi ethnic people play it.
I
I'm pretty sure it has quite a lot to do with the discussion since it was the B team of the worst/close to worst ranked Korean progaming team versus the best USA players and not one of them lost a single game, whereas the people coming to WCG will be the S class players of the best progaming teams in Korea.
....lol
*waits for the explosion of rage and rhetoric*
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On May 23 2008 05:08 EnergyTraction wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2008 14:43 {88}iNcontroL wrote:On May 22 2008 13:51 MorningMusume11 wrote:
And then we're reminded of what eSTRO's B team did to the foreigners... Oh are we just citing random times when a korean beat a foreigner? Ok, can I go next? PJ beat Savior at WCG! Or Testie beat Midas ^_^ yay! The point being your example doesnt take into account the factors discussed at all and actually doesnt relate in this discussion beyond the fact that its sc and multi ethnic people play it. I I'm pretty sure it has quite a lot to do with the discussion since it was the B team of the worst/close to worst ranked Korean progaming team versus the best USA players and not one of them lost a single game, whereas the people coming to WCG will be the S class players of the best progaming teams in Korea. ....lol *waits for the explosion of rage and rhetoric*
Can you stop being a dick? I know you want to get banned again but you dont need to try SO hard.
No, it doesn't have anything to do with this. In your OWN rhetoric you discuss additional reasons (beyond the ones I already gave in my reply to him as quoted) why they dont relate. These are "b" team professional gamers (which btw, doesnt mean too terribly much considering Shudder_V_, Nal_keke and other potential/former top level progamers are in there) playing non koreans. Suggesting that far superior professionals would come in and do "even greater" is a fucking logical fallicy and I dont know what more I can do to try and cram some common sense into your dense albeit minimalist skull. The greatest players on earth have lost to non koreans. Does that prove anything? Abso-fucking-lutely not. SO STOP. Discussing factors that can aid in the propensity for this to happen is where the actual debate lies. You have managed to not only evade the discussion but plow through an explanation for why it is bad to evade the discussion and continue to bat your forehead on the wall of ignorance. Stop, don't do it here. Just stop.
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On May 23 2008 05:08 EnergyTraction wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2008 14:43 {88}iNcontroL wrote:On May 22 2008 13:51 MorningMusume11 wrote:
And then we're reminded of what eSTRO's B team did to the foreigners... Oh are we just citing random times when a korean beat a foreigner? Ok, can I go next? PJ beat Savior at WCG! Or Testie beat Midas ^_^ yay! The point being your example doesnt take into account the factors discussed at all and actually doesnt relate in this discussion beyond the fact that its sc and multi ethnic people play it. I I'm pretty sure it has quite a lot to do with the discussion since it was the B team of the worst/close to worst ranked Korean progaming team versus the best USA players and not one of them lost a single game, whereas the people coming to WCG will be the S class players of the best progaming teams in Korea. ....lol *waits for the explosion of rage and rhetoric*
You're missing the point of the discussion - the fact that this year, foreigners have so many extra advantages that they didn't have in the years before. Nobody is arguing that Koreans aren't better than us...that is just plainly obvious. But come tourney time, anything can happen, and I'd have to say that our chances have improved, and a large part of that is due to the advantages that iNc has cited.
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G5 beat Bisu PvT ?
Draco beat by.Fantasy
Grrrr.... best (Name goes here)
Androide and Reason beat Silent_Control
Draco beat Midas
What else... hehe
Personally I think go.go needs to go win the WCG to get himself more cash, since he and 910 had to set their games so they can get a ton of moolah =P
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i believe stork was throwing games away so all the korean players can meet later into the tourny, hwasin lost yes but only to stork (who was doing VERY good at that period of time, idk y u said no1 expect him to win, imo i had predicted that stork would win if he meets hwasin b4 hwasin meets savior) the ONLY part about last WCG that was out of place is the fact that savior did worse than i expected, as soon as stork met hwasin i knew stork was gonna win the whole tourny.
back to the topic, i dont agree with incontrol on the original topic of this post (although i would like it to be the case). imo savior was slumping when he made it tho the korean wcg and i actually had predicted Bisu to in his place.
however, this has been said all the time, the koreans all seemed untouchable b4 coming to wcg and seemed somewhat touchable when they came but no1 ever took the 1st place from them (for 8 years STRAIGHT?), you may argue that we lost by a not-so-big margin (which i agree to a certain extend) but the fact that we ALWAYS loses (even if by small amount) shows theres a huge gap between the skill lvl. for example: when u have 2 supposedly equally skilled player play each other, their history record would be somewhat even. Now imagine this... two players: player K (a korean) and player F (a foreigner) their record is 8:0 favors K, would u say that K and F r close in skill lvl? would u say that (by the look of now) F will be able to beat K very soon? at least skillfully (not fluke)
Lastly lets not forget that the maps that were used for wcg have always been the old maps (korean pros would highly unlikely to have decent amount of practice on them) and as seen practice is important in sc
However i dont completely disagree with OP, i mean i personally believe that the world will catch up at SOME point (unless sc gets old 4 every1 b4 that happens, but we cant say 4 sure), it is true that it will eventually happen and despite all odds i have mentioned above: (we might be going 9:0, 10:0, 11:0...) we will break the zero at some point. but the bottom line is since the result and facts r unfavorable vs us, it is fair to just wait 4 it to actually happen b4 attempting to claim anything that seems to be unlikely to happen by statistics
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United States20661 Posts
With a modernized map pool and players like By.Flash I don't see foreigners taking it.
Have you seen Flash recently? Fucking untouchable.
vs Rock and vs Yarnc and vs Magma and vs Jangbi he was just like 'you can have the first 10 minutes of the game. I'm going to kill you anyway'. And did just that.
What the hell. Against Jangbi he didn't even scout.
I hope foreigners put up a good fight, and show good games, but I honestly don't see it happening.
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EPT
