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Mastermind
Canada7096 Posts
On May 19 2008 12:46 SonuvBob wrote: 4. Once TSL takes off, no one will care about WCG. :p I hope you're right about 1&2. Absolutely. Who even cares about the korean bw scene now that we have our own. TSL all the way. This is the only league I have been fully watching other then the GOMTV intel classic commentated by the great tasteless. | ||
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EGoldman
United States110 Posts
It seems that InControl's entire argument is worked around one central premise: LAN latency. Now, the question is this. "How much does LAN latency increase a gamer's skill?" The second question is "what is the probable gap in skill between the top level foreigner scene and the top level Korean scene?" Now, do some basic yet highly theoretical subtraction and you have your answer on the probability that a country other than Korea is going to take the gold for SC this WCG. (Diff. in Skill) - (Skill increase due to LAN) = Probability | ||
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anotak
United States1537 Posts
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Pellucidity
Netherlands377 Posts
Yes the Koreans are somewhat better, but there will only be three of them whereas there'll be a 29 (?) foreigners. And we have good players aswell and we have atleast 20 hours (I think, maybe a little more or less) worth of video footage of EVERY korean progamer, no matter who they send. So really,we do have an edge and ignoring that is just wrong. | ||
Rekrul
Korea (South)17174 Posts
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Rekrul
Korea (South)17174 Posts
foreigners have gotten better because of the latency stuff, but koreans are also making strategical and technical leaps and bounds all the time as well that still keep them lightyears ahead of the whiteman | ||
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Pellucidity
Netherlands377 Posts
On May 28 2008 06:01 Rekrul wrote: it's just hilarious to me that a guy that clicks the unit boxes to macro can even think he has the know how and knowledge to compare foreigners to koreans and rate their chances of success against them foreigners have gotten better because of the latency stuff, but koreans are also making strategical and technical leaps and bounds all the time as well that still keep them lightyears ahead of the whiteman Oh, you mean the leaps we get to observe every single day? Yeah gosh... How will we ever figure those out. | ||
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Rekrul
Korea (South)17174 Posts
The maps favor non koreans over koreans (like they do every year imo). Python/Bluestorm being the only real maps they will have any kind of interest in leaving Peaks/Tau/Gaia to be on our side. This is mentioned every year and doesn't pan out that much but I would contend with the compiling factors it starts to add up. How can you possibly say maps favor non koreans over koreans? What the fuck does that even mean? Maps favor races, not players. If you think foreigners have an advantage over the Koreans because koreans will be too busy practicing other maps for their leagues you are wrong. The Koreans know the game much much more in depth than the white man. They don't need to practice it nearly as much to know everything there is to know about the maps. They have teams full of pro-gamers and coaches there to play and analyze with and find the best strategies and small things on the map that they can abuse to their advantage. Non-koreans are much worse at figuring this stuff out than koreans. The koreans will come up with the best builds and keep them secret and crush the foreigners. Korea has stagnated. They sent Savior, Hwasin and Stork to WCG 2007. Savior was thought of as some unmovable monster. Hwasin was going to destroy everyone and meet him in the finals. Stork was a strong protoss but nobody ever really thought he'd do anything. Well Stork had to slay hwasin and Savior lost to Mondragon/Pj (even with map imbalance favoring Savior vs Mondragon). Stork struggled with WhiteRa and his own lack of intelligence. The key issue here is none of them really looked untouchable. Stork turned it on in the finals but he very well could have been caught with his pants down due to his pride/arrogance against WhiteRa. That was then though. I would argue that Korea save for Flash lacks the super weapon they have had in the past. That being said players of Flash's level aren't even guranteed to make it out. Players like Boxer, Nada and others have in their prime failed to make a WCG (note: yes they HAVE quali'd but they have also failed). Korean WCG is a crackpot. Their level ofplay has evened out so a clear winner is almost impossible to predict. Even if you disagree you would have to agree that at the very least their is a better chance this year that at least 1 maybe 2 will sneak in that nobody would suspect. Don't agree? State 2-3 players you can give a strong percentage to that would make it this year. Jaedong, Flash and Mind would seem like nice picks huh? Just watch. Korea has stagnated? You sit there saying that the level of play has evened out so much that you cannot predict anyone qualifying for Korea WCG team for sure then you say this makes the chances higher for foreigners? I don't get it. If the level of play in Korea is leveling out it means everyone is getting better, more solid, more perfect, more close to the best. If thats the case then there are less chances of WCG Korea ending up sending some fluke that could possibly lose to the foreigners. As far as Korea stagnating...lol where the fuck do you get that, I watch games on TV every day and I can tell you they are getting better and better at even faster and more impressive rates in the past. Nothing is stagnating, shit is developing just as fast as ever if not faster while the foreign market still has newbies like Nony flying shuttles into goons. Lastly, the gaming level of non koreans is higher than it ever has been. I would argue, even in relation to koreans. We have never been closer to their skill (since koreans "took off" which is post 1999~2000 or so). Mondragon is in his best shape of recent history and with TSL backing into WCG I would contend his previous 3rd place finish would only act as a motivator for the ultimate prize now being a realistic goal for him. Draco has proven that at the drop of a hat he can retake the throne as one of the most dominant players and I think even he will be hard pressed to avoid this WCG given the shape he is in. Ret is one of the best foreigners. His TvZ and ZvT make him a real threat against anyone. Given more time and tougher training (TOT) he will be even more scary. Strelok/WhiteRa have never been as good as they are now. Especially Strelok, he just won ASUS (Debut) and is winning tourneys almost weekly. I could go on but my point is that the foreigner gaming base is not consolidated into a Testie, Mondragon, Draco but rather spread out with Dreiven, Nony, JF, Strelok, Mondragon etc etc being all around that level we have more players of that potential with MORE of a chance to take advantage of a easy bracket or a arrogant korean (note: this does not mean koreans are arrogant but rather they may have never heard of a "nony" and then suddenly they are down a game and have to climb back up vs a confident top tier protoss who has trained like a boxer for the past 6 months). We also have a player in korea training with IdrA. He will be participating in USA WCG and if he doesn't make it out that just means the level of gaming HERE is so high that even the token white professional couldn't hack it with the level being so high. I think he very well could but this is just a signifier of either way, it being a good thing for us as a community. I somewhat agree with you here. The foreign level of play is much much higher than it was in the past. There are a lot of really good players on a foreign level now but you are VASTLYunderestimating the gap between the top foreigners and the Koreans by a lot. About Idra, Idra is not a token white professional. For the time being he is an avg USA macro player that was able to win a small tournament full of newbies invited by PeurtoRican (LOL) to get a lucky spot on team E-Stro. He still has a lot to prove and a lot of improving to do if he wants to prove that stuff. I'm not saying he can't do it but it certainly takes time and one year is not enough. If he gets raped at WCG USA it's not some huge statement about the level of play in the USA, but rather a statement about his inadequacy as a player and a statement about his inability to advance to a higher level as a player (as was the case with me when I lost in WCG USA). My prediction is completely speculative and only serves the purpose of 1. establishing my prediction so I can look like a genius when it comes true and 2. start a discussion. 1. Two of the top 3 in WCG will be non-koreans. Big woop? We had that happen this year. Sure, but I am predicting what nobody did last year and I think a repeat will be more epic. 2. For the first time a WCG winner will be from a country that isn't Korea. 3.This will be the last WCG with SCBW on the ticket. Korea will have to sit and stew on their greatest defeat. 1. I predict one foreigner will be top three. Upsets do happen as there is a lot of luck in starcraft and Koreans can potentially knock each other out (plus 3284032 foreigners vs 3 koreans), but their level of play is so high that they can safely get two into the top 3 even if they are unlucky. 2. Impossible and I will bet anyone any amount of money that a Korean will win. 3. I disagree, this certainly isn't the last year and I even think it's possible we see a WCG that contains SC and SC2. Or have a side event for the spectators where the top 8 of the SC2 tourney have a little SC1 nostalgia tournament. | ||
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Rekrul
Korea (South)17174 Posts
On May 28 2008 06:18 Pellucidity wrote: Oh, you mean the leaps we get to observe every single day? Yeah gosh... How will we ever figure those out. Foreigners do not possess the speed and technical skills needed to correctly implement all the amazing things Koreans are able to do nowadays. Even if foreigners can observe them in replays or VODs they are not capable of implementing them. | ||
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Pellucidity
Netherlands377 Posts
And last but not least, even if they wouldn't be able to use them themselves, they'd still know what they're up against, which gives an edge. It just does. You can whine, cry and rebel all you want, but it simply won't work. | ||
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Rekrul
Korea (South)17174 Posts
On May 28 2008 06:37 Pellucidity wrote: First of all, the gap isn't half as big as you want to make it look. Secondly, Sure they can, why wouldn't they be able to? We have technical and non-technical players just like the Koreans do, they may be somewhat faster, but faster isn't always better. And last but not least, even if they wouldn't be able to use them themselves, they'd still know what they're up against, which gives an edge. It just does. You can whine, cry and rebel all you want, but it simply won't work. No, you're just an idiot. | ||
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Pellucidity
Netherlands377 Posts
Good solid counter there. 15 - 0 gg | ||
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Rekrul
Korea (South)17174 Posts
We have technical and non-technical players just like the Koreans do, they may be somewhat faster, but faster isn't always better. For your information, all korean players are extremely technical and there are no foreigners that have come very close to that. So that statement was absolutely idiotic. And last but not least, even if they wouldn't be able to use them themselves, they'd still know what they're up against, which gives an edge. It just does This statement proves you have no idea why games of starcraft are won which means you have no idea what you are talking about and are unqualified to state your opinion on this matter unless you want to be called an idiot by people who actually know what they are talking about. But who wants that????? | ||
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Pellucidity
Netherlands377 Posts
On May 28 2008 06:44 Rekrul wrote: lol... For your information, all korean players are extremely technical and there are no foreigners that have come very close to that. So that statement was absolutely idiotic. This statement proves you have no idea why games of starcraft are won which means you have no idea what you are talking about and are unqualified to state your opinion on this matter unless you want to be called an idiot by people who actually know what they are talking about. But who wants that????? There are several sloppy Korean gamers. I saw them on GomTV and I'll try to look for them later. (i.e. no depot next to the CC to make the SCV get out faster, no larva/overlord hold positions spamming, no shortening of the pathfinding routes) As for knowing what you're up against, that doesn't just go for starcraft it goes for everything in life. Once you know what you're up against it's easier to deal with. If you KNOW your opponent is extremely technical and if you KNOW what he does (not just build orders but silly technical things that give him a slight edge too) you'll be able to figure out another way to possibly get the edge back and win. I wouldn't expect you to understand this, because clearly you have the IQ of an earthworm, but that's okay. You keep thinking about minimalistic things, I'll keep thinking about the bigger picture and once the WCG comes we will see. Alright? Awesome. | ||
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Rekrul
Korea (South)17174 Posts
The Korean's innovations are so strong that even if the foreigner watches and knows all about them it doesn't matter. Their builds and playstyles are not only safe and very strong, but UNPREDICTABLE at the same time, which means even if the player thinks he knows what he's up against, he doesn't. Thats the point that you are failing to see. IQ is overrated anyways, wisdom is what it's all about. | ||
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Pellucidity
Netherlands377 Posts
On May 28 2008 06:56 Rekrul wrote: LOL... The Korean's innovations are so strong that even if the foreigner watches and knows all about them it doesn't matter. Their builds and playstyles are not only safe and very strong, but UNPREDICTABLE at the same time, which means even if the player thinks he knows what he's up against, he doesn't. Thats the point that you are failing to see. IQ is overrated anyways, wisdom is what it's all about. And the point you're failing to see is that if they KNOW they're unpredictable they'll scout extra hard. You can't honestly be telling me you don't think knowing what you're up against doesn't help. Do you go into exams ignorant of the material you will be quizzed over? I think not. I never meant to insinuate Korean players are bad and they have a 50/50% of winning. I'm saying the chance of them winning is getting smaller and smaller, and although we're still behind, we do have a chance of winning. Do you not take your umbrella with you when the weatherman says there's a 30% chance of rain? (I personally don't because I love the rain lol) but a lot of people do. Point being neither of us is going to budge and we're just spamming away so the best thing for the two of us to do is to just sit and wait. | ||
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Rekrul
Korea (South)17174 Posts
OF course there is always a very very very very slight chance a foreigner will win, and I do agree with you guys that the chances this year are higher by a very small degree because of a lot of factors combined, but the rise in chances are quite insignificant and not as big as a deal as Incontrol or you seem to think they are. Anyways, wait we shall. | ||
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CFDragon
United States304 Posts
On May 28 2008 06:28 Rekrul wrote: while the foreign market still has newbies like Nony flying shuttles into goons. Oh, God, why the reminder? (facepalms) I agree with some of what InC said, but personally I still think Korea has absolutely excellent chances at taking WCG Gold, most likely also grabbing silver and/or bronze. Sure foreigners have gotten A LOT better, but you simply can't say that Koreans aren't improving. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
I spent 3/4th of this thread explaining to people I am NOT fucking arguing that suddenly non koreans are as good as fucking koreans. I am arguing that miracles have happened in the past without several factors that are in existance today. Namely LAN latency and higher non-korean gaming level. You are completely detached and have no idea what the foreign gaming level is. You watch a fucking semi final for TSL and take a jab at nony and assume that is his fucking carreer. You understand I can site a dozen situations in wich Nal_rA looked like a fucking twat? Or Boxer should have gone left but went right like a moron? It happens to the best so I have no idea why someone who plays between his classes at Duke should be held to a higher standard. The bottom line is he shouldnt. And he sure as fuck doesnt deserve the rantings of a faggot who slings remarks like he has any kind of clout aside from a huge bankroll (which has no fucking baring here). You flat ignored my LAN argument because its the fucking crux of my argument and it would take too much brain power + recent experience to discuss legitimately both are things you lack. You spat that you don't understand how the maps are favoring non-koreans when you quoted my fucking explanation for it. Try reading a god damn post before arguing against it. You argue "they know more" and can "abuse little things on a map" NO FUCKING WAI? SINCE WHEN HAS THAT NOT BEEN THE CASE? Never. But if I can argue that the maps THIS year uniquely add advantages that years previous perhaps didnt I am god damn well going to do that. If you want to rant about some shit that is non-unique feel free but that is completely ignorant to the discussion. And here is your argument for "korea is stagnating:" A. nah uh B. I watch it on TV C. THey are gud WOW Rekrul! Thanks dude. That was fucking deep. You also flat didnt understand my leveling of play in korea and construed it as "well that means they are all nadas now." No. It means they dont have a real super weapon except the growing Flash phenomenon. It means in their WCG a fucking mid level pro can take out one of the "big guns" and go to WCG when he is not nearly as complete of a player as a Flash, Jaedong, Bisu etc. Even if you disagree with this you have to say more than "I think that means they are all gud." That again goes under the NO SHIT catagory. I saw you post in here and I got all excited cause I was like FINALLY a dude who knows this game and can make some fucking arguments beyond the Carlojin level of "NO, KOREANS ARE GOOD WHITES CANT WIN." But fuck me sideways Rekrul disappoints. Waltzes into this thread and says "NAH UH, THEY ARE GOOD" In wall posts of mind-numbing illogic stamps it with his token slander and calls it a day. FCUK | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
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