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On November 28 2007 12:04 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2007 12:01 FrEaK[S.sIR] wrote:On November 28 2007 11:58 {88}iNcontroL wrote:I love it how you going on some diabtribe about the dangers of assuming and making presumptions based on assertions... then you make an entire post on just that hahaha. SMurg: I like the word rimjob  That is all really. I wouldnt know the first thing you would do with a prostitute. Those assumptions are where? None at all! I Made it up. Your entire post is factual and brilliant as usual! Oh freak, you are so adorable!
Are we speaking of my commenting on my own actions? Can't be, since I can't make assumptions about my own actions.
Or is it my saying you are argumentative, stubborn and passionate. Also not an assumption. You have been endlessly argumentative, stubborn and passionate for as long as I've seen you post.
Whoopsie.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
Again, spot on! Freak for prezzzz
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Braavos36375 Posts
Can you guys stop the sarcasm and personal flame war? You aren't even talking about the topic anymore.
Incontrol & Freak the next person to continue the off-topic personal attacks gets 2 days.
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
On November 28 2007 11:36 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
YES
Its inevitable that it will be here! Embrace it! Dont try and fight it?! hahah Stealing, murder, incest etc.. all are things human beings have and will do for all of time! So instead of fighting it just fucking embrace it!
Disagree with me? You must have blinders on! You must be ignorant! Dont do these things, open your mind! Free your selves!
.............
Wow you should really think a bit before saying things like that.
It is extremely foolish to try and equate prostitution with stealing / murdering / etc.
If I paid a prostitute 10 000$ to sleep with me overnight and we both walk away from the encounter perfectly content with it, what does that night have anything to do with murder / stealing? Do you realize nobody is pointing a gun to her head to sleep with me?
Murder and stealing are doing things AGAINST someone's will.
Prostitution is two consenting adults agreeing to exchange money for sex WILLINGLY.
Please, don't ever bring up murder / stealing on the same level as prostitution ever again.
Tien you are blowing my arguement to impossible proportions. Smoking a cig or drinking some booze is not comparable to licking the asshole of a whore. BUT guess what? If someone drinks TOO much and is being fucking stupid they will get in trouble... just as I said. Its "my body" but if you drink so much it becomes dangerous for others around you or you are literally self destructing people WILL stop you.
I am not blowing your arguments into impossible proportions. I am merely using your arguments against you to show you how rediculous your arguments were.
The point you made about "stopping people who harm their bodies" is extremely vague and can be applied to a thousand legal activities that people engage themselves in that harm their bodies.
And who are you to decide whether or not a prostitute is "harming" her body?
Have you ever talked to one?
What do you know about the prositution industry in your own country?
What do you know about how a prostitute in your country lives?
What do you know about how clean they REALLY are?
What do you know about how often they check themselves up?
Freak really nailed the point when he said:
The people arguing one side happen to be arguing based on morals and emotion. One can never argue based on morals and emotion for the big picture doesn't care what your morals are or how you feel about them. You must work within that structure. A refusal to do so is ignorance incarnated.
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Braavos36375 Posts
Tien, what about my two posts on page 13?
"And who are you to decide whether or not a prostitute is "harming" her body?"
This is simply not a good argument. You seem to be very concerned with an argument that is more grounded in realism and less in morals, yet that this argument is one really doesn't take into consideration what truly happens on a ground level in the prostitution industry.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
Tien read hot_bid's remark to lilsusie in this thread. That is essentially what I was getting towards only he is more eloquent than I.
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On November 28 2007 12:01 Hot_Bid wrote:
I don't have an opinion on either side of the argument, but we had a similar debate in class the other day. I think I actually lean slightly toward legalizing it.
Just to play devil's advocate to Freak & the pro-legalization side, studies have shown that at least in America, prostitution has very closely been tied to women who have psychological problems and a history of physical abuse. Whether these are causes or effects of illegal prostitution we are not sure. Yes, I'm sure there are plenty of prostitutes who tolerate or even like their job, but I find this as the minority--most of these women are forced through dire circumstances to do this.
It can be argued that it's impossible to separate these sorts of problems that plague women in (either driving them to or originating from) the prostitution profession.
Now, wouldn't you find it more efficient to use the resources we have to actually stop the systemic problems that cause women to go into prostitution? That legalizing it would be basically ignoring the larger, underlying problem of womens' rights in the United States? That until this grander, more systemic problem is fixed, legalizing prostitution is simply not an option?
This is pretty common in virtually every hierarchal illegal trade. It creates a tiered structure where the higher you are the more you are rewarded for being ruthless and greedy. The lower you are the more you are controlled, manipulated and exploited. The only way to stop this sort of thing from happening is to create a society where the incentive for such a market isn't there. Either it isn't able to exist due to a saturated legal market or because the risk/reward for the higher tiers of the hierarchy isn't worthwhile enough to engage in the market.
Otherwise it just gets progressively more violent and chaotic as the good guys attempt to fight the bad. Unless you can stop there from being money and power involved with it, more people will enter the market.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
Are you saying prostitution is at an all time high and in violence/membership?
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Braavos36375 Posts
This would be all good if there was only one biological sex. Unfortunately, women already have huge, systemic problems as a gender in America. Legalization of prostitution will have a huge impact on this, and one can argue it will only increase the problems that women already have, for many of the reasons I stated on page 13. You simply cannot separate prostitution with the implications it has on women's rights and the overall advancement of that gender.
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On November 28 2007 12:13 Hot_Bid wrote:
Tien, what about my two posts on page 13?
"And who are you to decide whether or not a prostitute is "harming" her body?"
This is simply not a good argument. You seem to be very concerned with an argument that is more grounded in realism and less in morals, yet that this argument is one really doesn't take into consideration what truly happens on a ground level in the prostitution industry.
Perhaps we should use the legal sex houses that exist in Nevada or the legal prostitutions that many escort agencies dabble in as references as opposed to street walkers.
I really don't think Tien is talking about a black market prostitution system. I think he is arguing for the hypothetical legal prostitution establishments that are regulated and controlled. Reference to the establishments that are similar to what he's suggesting that exist as opposed to the illegal ones.
It's a good place to start anyway.
And sorry for derailing the thread. I can get carried away from time to time
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On November 28 2007 12:19 Hot_Bid wrote:
This would be all good if there was only one biological sex. Unfortunately, women already have huge, systemic problems as a gender in America. Legalization of prostitution will have a huge impact on this, and one can argue it will only increase the problems that women already have, for many of the reasons I stated on page 13. You simply cannot separate prostitution with the implications it has on women's rights and the overall advancement of that gender.
I really, really disagree with this. The sex trade wouldn't been in place for the wide spread exploitation and objectifying of women. It would be no worse than the state of the already operational escort services and sex trade in Nevada.
Woman's rights is a whole other discussion though.
EDIT: Also, prostitution would be a legal sex trade.
Males do escorting, prostitution and legal sex in Nevada as well. The industry would be predominantly female, sure, but that is due to the client base. The existence of the industry would be no worse than the existence of the industries that degrade women already. Sex trade is sex trade, there is little difference between pornography and prostitution. You can't have one and not the other. Not from a moral or a woman's rights view point. The objectifying as woman as sex objects doesn't really change because it has a different outlet. Pornography, strip clubs, escort services, prostitution, peep shows, sex talk lines all objectify women into sexual objects. You either have them all or none. Anything else is really just being inconsistent.
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Braavos36375 Posts
Unfortunately you can't separate high end escorts from corner girls in prostitution. There will always be a continuum of cost vs. quality in every business, and there will always exist a market for the cheap street walker.
There's a good argument in STD testing and revenue regulation, these are positives that could come from legalizing prostitution. However, there will always be that large group of women who are either too ugly or too beaten down to live the life of a high end (or even just average) prostitute.
Legalizing it would have a huge impact on the already very screwed up gender issues at play in the industry. You cannot separate women's rights from prostitution. It'd be nice and clean to debate in a vacuum like that, but in the real world it doesn't happen this way.
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3861 Posts
On November 28 2007 12:12 Tien wrote:
If I paid a prostitute 10 000$ to sleep with me overnight and we both walk away from the encounter perfectly content with it, what does that night have anything to do with murder / stealing? Do you realize nobody is pointing a gun to her head to sleep with me?
$10,000? I'm in.
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
On November 28 2007 12:01 Hot_Bid wrote:
Just to play devil's advocate to Freak & the pro-legalization side, studies have shown that at least in America, prostitution has very closely been tied to women who have psychological problems and a history of physical abuse. Whether these are causes or effects of illegal prostitution we are not sure. Yes, I'm sure there are plenty of prostitutes who tolerate or even like their job, but I find this as the minority--most of these women are forced through dire circumstances to do this.
I do not agree with forced prostitution. I think forced prostitution, forcing someone to do something against their will is just as bad a crime as murdering / stealing. Child / forced prostitution is something that makes my skin crawl and makes me want to puke.
But two consenting adults agreeing to do something without harming each other (safe sex / no violence / no depravity) is perfectly fine with me. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this.
Taking normal prostitution into consideration, meaning a prostitute that consents to be a prostitute. She has all the free will in the world to stop / continue what she is currently doing. Nobody is pointing a gun at her head forcing her to spread her legs and accept a dick inside.
It can be argued that it's impossible to separate these sorts of problems that plague women in (either driving them to or originating from) the prostitution profession.
Now, wouldn't you find it more efficient to use the resources we have to actually stop the systemic problems that cause women to go into prostitution? That legalizing it would be basically ignoring the larger, underlying problem of womens' rights in the United States? That until this grander, more systemic problem is fixed, legalizing prostitution is simply not an option?
Yes and no. Yes meaning we definately should use resources to help women that don't want to be in the business to get out of the business, or women who have no business being prostitutes to become prostitutes.
You do realize that in Vegas and Rhode Island prostitution is legal. You must also realize Australia / Germany / Netherlands / Canada (YES!!) / Hungary / New Zealand / and a host of other countries have legalized prostitution without any problems at all.
Prostitution itself is not a problem, it is merely an act of exchanging sex for money. What drives people to do such a thing has nothing to do with prostitution itself. You see a host of degenerates with the same kind of history problems in gambling / alcohol / legal drugs.
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Braavos36375 Posts
On November 28 2007 12:25 FrEaK[S.sIR] wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2007 12:19 Hot_Bid wrote:
This would be all good if there was only one biological sex. Unfortunately, women already have huge, systemic problems as a gender in America. Legalization of prostitution will have a huge impact on this, and one can argue it will only increase the problems that women already have, for many of the reasons I stated on page 13. You simply cannot separate prostitution with the implications it has on women's rights and the overall advancement of that gender. I really, really disagree with this. The sex trade wouldn't been in place for the wide spread exploitation and objectifying of women. It would be no worse than the state of the already operational escort services and sex trade in Nevada. Woman's rights is a whole other discussion though. EDIT: Also, prostitution would be a legal sex trade. Males do escorting, prostitution and legal sex in Nevada as well. The industry would be predominantly female, sure, but that is due to the client base. The existence of the industry would be no worse than the existence of the industries that degrade women already. Sex trade is sex trade, there is little difference between pornography and prostitution. You can't have one and not the other. Not from a moral or a woman's rights view point. The objectifying as woman as sex objects doesn't really change because it has a different outlet. Pornography, strip clubs, escort services, prostitution, peep shows, sex talk lines all objectify women into sexual objects. You either have them all or none. Anything else is really just being inconsistent.
The male portion of the prostitution industry would be so small that it's not even worth mentioning in an argument about it. From a theoretical standpoint yes, prostitution is "gender neutral" since men can do it too, but frankly we all know why that argument doesn't hold.
Second, there does exist a line between prostitution and pornography/stripping. I'm not saying there's a great argument there, because there isn't and it's one of the main reasons why I actually lean towards legalization.
The whole "all or none" argument is very clean and easy to make, but looking at the current state of society, it's probably fair to say that all these things (prostitution, pornography, strippers, sex talk lines, etc) damage women's rights to some degree (or enhance them, depending on your view of women's rights, that's a whole other argument), and that by legalizing prostitution you are simply adding another legal way for women to be degraded. That is why it should be opposed from a certain women's rights perspective, because it's just adding another element to an already systemic problem.
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On November 28 2007 12:27 Hot_Bid wrote:
Unfortunately you can't separate high end escorts from corner girls in prostitution. There will always be a continuum of cost vs. quality in every business, and there will always exist a market for the cheap street walker.
There's a good argument in STD testing and revenue regulation, these are positives that could come from legalizing prostitution. However, there will always be that large group of women who are either too ugly or too beaten down to live the life of a high end (or even just average) prostitute.
Legalizing it would have a huge impact on the already very screwed up gender issues at play in the industry. You cannot separate women's rights from prostitution. It'd be nice and clean to debate in a vacuum like that, but in the real world it doesn't happen this way.
Firstly, not all escorts are high end. Secondly, why does it matter if there are a large group of women are too ugly or too beaten down to live the life of a high end prostitute? Just because somebody is too stupid to become a lawyer should we not have lawyers?(I know that might be stretching it but I think the idea is there) An industry is an industry. You pay top dollar for top quality, less for lower quality.
Yes, you can separate them. That's why I disagree with you. The sex industry is a niche market. The way it is largely kept private(to some extent) will keep it that way. Niche markets don't often define a gender as a whole or greatly influence a society's outlook on them. If it did, it would be relatively small and go away in a generation or two. You have to look at the long run, not the right now.
But that's really all speculation and opinion. Neither of us can really tell the outcome unless it happens. It'll just degenerate into a long winded discussion that goes "Yuh-huh, Nuh-uh, Yuh-huh! Nuh-uh!" but with flowery words. Not sure how much you want to engage in that
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
On November 28 2007 12:27 lilsusie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2007 12:12 Tien wrote:
If I paid a prostitute 10 000$ to sleep with me overnight and we both walk away from the encounter perfectly content with it, what does that night have anything to do with murder / stealing? Do you realize nobody is pointing a gun to her head to sleep with me?
$10,000? I'm in.
hahhahahahahaha, everyone has a price.
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On November 28 2007 12:12 Tien wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2007 11:36 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
YES
Its inevitable that it will be here! Embrace it! Dont try and fight it?! hahah Stealing, murder, incest etc.. all are things human beings have and will do for all of time! So instead of fighting it just fucking embrace it!
Disagree with me? You must have blinders on! You must be ignorant! Dont do these things, open your mind! Free your selves! ............. Wow you should really think a bit before saying things like that. It is extremely foolish to try and equate prostitution with stealing / murdering / etc. If I paid a prostitute 10 000$ to sleep with me overnight and we both walk away from the encounter perfectly content with it, what does that night have anything to do with murder / stealing? Do you realize nobody is pointing a gun to her head to sleep with me? Murder and stealing are doing things AGAINST someone's will. Prostitution is two consenting adults agreeing to exchange money for sex WILLINGLY. Please, don't ever bring up murder / stealing on the same level as prostitution ever again. Show nested quote +
Tien you are blowing my arguement to impossible proportions. Smoking a cig or drinking some booze is not comparable to licking the asshole of a whore. BUT guess what? If someone drinks TOO much and is being fucking stupid they will get in trouble... just as I said. Its "my body" but if you drink so much it becomes dangerous for others around you or you are literally self destructing people WILL stop you.
I am not blowing your arguments into impossible proportions. I am merely using your arguments against you to show you how rediculous your arguments were. The point you made about "stopping people who harm their bodies" is extremely vague and can be applied to a thousand legal activities that people engage themselves in that harm their bodies. And who are you to decide whether or not a prostitute is "harming" her body? Have you ever talked to one? What do you know about the prositution industry in your own country? What do you know about how a prostitute in your country lives? What do you know about how clean they REALLY are? What do you know about how often they check themselves up? Freak really nailed the point when he said: Show nested quote + The people arguing one side happen to be arguing based on morals and emotion. One can never argue based on morals and emotion for the big picture doesn't care what your morals are or how you feel about them. You must work within that structure. A refusal to do so is ignorance incarnated.
I dont agree with that whole "embrace prostitution because its been here for a long time". wtf seriously There are a lot of examples also I can give you that is morally wrong and is not against someone's will, like buying drugs from a dealer ,etc. Its morally wrong.
And a prostitute IS harming her body wheter she realizes it or not in what she does. She is exposing herself to an endless amount of diseases and degrading herself as a person having sex with people for money.
Since whores dont ask for people to go take a blood exam before having sex, no matter how clean, carefull they are exposing and threatening their own lives.
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Braavos36375 Posts
Yes, there's no way to really tell how it will work the United States. I was simply being the devil's advocate to you and Tien and making arguments several people said in class in a much more eloquent and better way than I did here. I can't really elaborate much more on them because, to be honest, I'm not that knowledgeable in that field.
I just wanted to you guys know there are very legitimate reasons for opposing prostitution than simply believing it is "morally wrong" or "bad" as many have stated here.
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On November 28 2007 12:36 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2007 12:25 FrEaK[S.sIR] wrote:On November 28 2007 12:19 Hot_Bid wrote:
This would be all good if there was only one biological sex. Unfortunately, women already have huge, systemic problems as a gender in America. Legalization of prostitution will have a huge impact on this, and one can argue it will only increase the problems that women already have, for many of the reasons I stated on page 13. You simply cannot separate prostitution with the implications it has on women's rights and the overall advancement of that gender. I really, really disagree with this. The sex trade wouldn't been in place for the wide spread exploitation and objectifying of women. It would be no worse than the state of the already operational escort services and sex trade in Nevada. Woman's rights is a whole other discussion though. EDIT: Also, prostitution would be a legal sex trade. Males do escorting, prostitution and legal sex in Nevada as well. The industry would be predominantly female, sure, but that is due to the client base. The existence of the industry would be no worse than the existence of the industries that degrade women already. Sex trade is sex trade, there is little difference between pornography and prostitution. You can't have one and not the other. Not from a moral or a woman's rights view point. The objectifying as woman as sex objects doesn't really change because it has a different outlet. Pornography, strip clubs, escort services, prostitution, peep shows, sex talk lines all objectify women into sexual objects. You either have them all or none. Anything else is really just being inconsistent. The whole "all or none" argument is very clean and easy to make, but looking at the current state of society, it's probably fair to say that all these things (prostitution, pornography, strippers, sex talk lines, etc) damage women's rights to some degree (or enhance them, depending on your view of women's rights, that's a whole other argument), and that by legalizing prostitution you are simply adding another legal way for women to be degraded. That is why it should be opposed from a certain women's rights perspective, because it's just adding another element to an already systemic problem.
Which merely comes back to my original point. Abolishing the sex trade is impossible no matter how much you try. Attempting to do so just creates a violent, very dangerous and incredibly profitable black market and wastes resources on attempting to control that black market. It puts the control right in the hands of the bad guys that will break the rules and exploit people. The only way to prevent that is to create a market so that the black market isn't worthwhile. You can't get rid of a black market by attempting to destroy it or control it. You make a market it can't compete with because it tilts the risk/reward to the point that it isn't worthwhile.
Since you can't abolish it you have to exist with it. You either live with the black market or a regulated market. It's your choice.
It's going to exist no matter what you do.
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EPT
