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On November 28 2007 03:53 Zherak wrote:
You need to realize that your textbooks on market economics, and, for that matter, the Ku Klux Klan's pages on capitalism, do not actually correspond with reality
You assume that the rich man will go to a service which provides clean girls. The problem is, in the real world, customers never act with perfect information. Even if this rich man goes to the trouble of doing extensive research on pros and cons of various prostitutes, it is ridiculously hard to determine the chances of getting an STD, particularly when every single seller has everything to gain from pretending they are one hundred percent clean.
If your idealized world of economics actually corresponds to the real world, then I should have known how to pick an STD-free whore. However, I do not. I figure trying to find an ethnic Norwegian (seeing as I live in Norway) who does not look completely drug-addicted and actually takes well enough to paid that she doesn't have to fuck thirty-seven guys a day might increase my chances, but all these are guesses, and I have no real means of distinguishing classy whores from pretend-classy whores.
As a customer, I would appreciate having the government help me in selecting whores suited to my needs by regulating the market. Nobody actually wants to have sex with an AIDS infected prostitute, so of course I would like it if these were not around on the market like spider mines in a TvP on Rush Hour.
Rational behaviour does not require perfect information. It only requires people use all information available to them. Customers would be aware of the risks and value that risk according to their own preferences and then make the choice about what kind of prostitute to go to, based on that. If you still feel the risk is too high then don't use a prostitute; it's just like using any other good or service.
And, please, seeing as you manage to type coherent sentences arranged in paragraphs, you are not completely retarded. You should realize that not existing in government records != not having a corporeal form. If an FBI agent drops by your brothel, maybe even undercover, and asks to see immigration papers for all those ethnic Mexicans you have employed, you need to either show him the work permits or find yourself a damn good lawyer. Regulation give the business rules to follow, and of course, rules without any attempts at enforcing them are hollow. It is, however, not impossible to enforce these rules. That is the only reason why (I hope) child prostitutes are not available in the US.
Now you are discussing regulation of business as a whole, and your example would apply to many sectors who employ illegal labour. This is not the same as saying there should be regulation of the prostitution industry specifically. Sure, it'd be nice if the law enforcement agencies could close down companies knowingly hiring illegal immigrants but I just don't think they have the resources to do that, hence, the problems of black economy that all governments have.
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On November 28 2007 00:51 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
I'm sorry did Freak just bitch about predictability? Because I am pretty sure he ONLY posts in threads that have to do with drugs/sex? He sometimes makes exceptions for other threads, but only if they involve fringe opinions on things that typically involve mainstream comfort levels.
This would be the first one that would have to do with sex as far as I'm aware.
Drugs because I'm the most knowledgeable person on the site about it and would like to attempt to educate people about responsible mindset and use. Sue me.
The last few have been about economics, religions and smoking.
Nice try though.
You're so cute when you're being stupid. Which is incredibly often 
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
On November 27 2007 06:27 Zherak wrote:
You're the only one calling me a better human being. Flattering as that might be, there's no need to put words in my mouth.
And, yes, you are right, there are many other ways to make both sex and relationships less special. Prostitution is one of them. Ad-hoc prostitution, which is essentially what you are describing in your various examples of trading money for sex is another.
It's your description of Utopian relationships which is black and white. I believe that:
a) A very intimate relationship between men and women is possible (probably men and men too, for that matter, but I don't swing that way)
b) Being part of such a relationship is one of the most satisfying (gratifying?) experiences you can find
c) Buying hookers take away part of what can make such a relationship special
Reality check 1: human beings like to have sex for the sake of having sex. "special relationships" as you put it often times has nothing to do with 2 humans having sex.
Your definition of sex, or what you yourself want sex to be is an act used only for "special relationship" that is very intimate.
Reality check 2: Your definition of sex is not someone's elses.
Just because I like to have sexual encounters just for the sake of having sexual encounters once in a while doesn't mean I cannot have an intimiate "special relationship" when I meet the right girl.
As an aside, I view sex to be just as much about appreciating and being appreciated as it is about stimulating your glans. The physical sensation lasts some minutes.
This may sound all Hollywood and silly, but is not very different from how I only eat sweets very rarely, so I do not case to appreciate the, how I only want to celebrate Christmas once a year and how I do not want to study music because I want it to remain only a hobby I can appreciate as such.
So you are saving your virginity for marriage.
Reality check 3: people have completely different views towards sex. You want to save sex only for those encounters where you truly love the girl, whereas, the rest of the world will have promiscous sex for the fun of it.
Again, this point of yours is completely moot. Just because you view sex one way doesn't mean another person is obligated to view sex the same way you do.
It is also my impression than many male posters in this thread fail to realize how differently men and women view sex. One of the most basic evolutionary instincts of any mammalian female is a need to be able to chose who she mates with, and to be reasonably picky about it. In mammals with a long gestation period who form familial bonds to raise their young (i.e. humans) this need is extremely strong. Women can, for evolutionary reasons, not be casual about sex, and birth control does not change this instinct.
Reality check 4: there are tons of women out there that are highly promiscuous and do it merely for the act of having fun.
So that makes your entire point there a moot point.
I have not verified that this is not bullshit statistics, but it sounds reasonable. Prostitution takes away one of the most important rights of a female, that of choosing carefully who she has sex with. Therefore, extremely few women can be content to be prostitutes.
Those statistics have nothing to do with any discussion in this thread. Prostitution does not take any rights away from a female. The female deliberately made the decision to give herself away to whomever in return for money. Nobody is pointing a gun at her head so therefore no one is taking away any important right of hers. And plus, just because some fucked up 4 eyed dirty disgusting monster wants to have sex with a prostitute, doesn't mean the prostitute will actually have sex with him. So that means prostitutes do have a choice towards whom they want to exchange sex for money with.
So again, you're making a moot point there.
Wake up buddy. You've been living a way too sheltered life watching these romantic hollywood romantic comedies.
What you think the world should be is often times completely different than what actually is.
If only the people that are so against prostitution would accept this, that their views of what is is often times opposite to reality.
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its funny how prostitution is still taboo, considering it has existed at a constant level since first cities were raised. shame on people who argue against it and cant include or accept history in their arguments. Regulation has always worked better then illigalization, and thats a fact.
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people who are against it are probably the same people who spend astronomical sums of money on restauraunts, gifts and flowers so they can get a BJ on valentines day ;/ or are obviously living in a rural area with no such service and live in a closet (testie)
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Im not so into that kind of thing. I got an girlfriend now. And im the kind of person who likes to be with one girl for like steady.. - WHAT DID HE SAY?? -
Btw for TS, i wound't go to whorehouses cos ur friends do it. For that matter i would never go to whorehouses. I would rather help meself before i need paying for deseases and such.. Likely if you visit taiwan orsummit.
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On November 28 2007 04:07 Milton Friedman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2007 03:53 Zherak wrote:
You need to realize that your textbooks on market economics, and, for that matter, the Ku Klux Klan's pages on capitalism, do not actually correspond with reality
You assume that the rich man will go to a service which provides clean girls. The problem is, in the real world, customers never act with perfect information. Even if this rich man goes to the trouble of doing extensive research on pros and cons of various prostitutes, it is ridiculously hard to determine the chances of getting an STD, particularly when every single seller has everything to gain from pretending they are one hundred percent clean.
If your idealized world of economics actually corresponds to the real world, then I should have known how to pick an STD-free whore. However, I do not. I figure trying to find an ethnic Norwegian (seeing as I live in Norway) who does not look completely drug-addicted and actually takes well enough to paid that she doesn't have to fuck thirty-seven guys a day might increase my chances, but all these are guesses, and I have no real means of distinguishing classy whores from pretend-classy whores.
As a customer, I would appreciate having the government help me in selecting whores suited to my needs by regulating the market. Nobody actually wants to have sex with an AIDS infected prostitute, so of course I would like it if these were not around on the market like spider mines in a TvP on Rush Hour. Rational behaviour does not require perfect information. It only requires people use all information available to them. Customers would be aware of the risks and value that risk according to their own preferences and then make the choice about what kind of prostitute to go to, based on that. If you still feel the risk is too high then don't use a prostitute; it's just like using any other good or service. Show nested quote +And, please, seeing as you manage to type coherent sentences arranged in paragraphs, you are not completely retarded. You should realize that not existing in government records != not having a corporeal form. If an FBI agent drops by your brothel, maybe even undercover, and asks to see immigration papers for all those ethnic Mexicans you have employed, you need to either show him the work permits or find yourself a damn good lawyer. Regulation give the business rules to follow, and of course, rules without any attempts at enforcing them are hollow. It is, however, not impossible to enforce these rules. That is the only reason why (I hope) child prostitutes are not available in the US. Now you are discussing regulation of business as a whole, and your example would apply to many sectors who employ illegal labour. This is not the same as saying there should be regulation of the prostitution industry specifically. Sure, it'd be nice if the law enforcement agencies could close down companies knowingly hiring illegal immigrants but I just don't think they have the resources to do that, hence, the problems of black economy that all governments have.
If you want to achieve a perfect market, you need perfect information. Those things the government is better suited to acquire information on, such as illegal immigrants, HIV, so on and so forth, should be regulated by the government. I think this is nearly every part prostitution - you seem to claim it isn't. Too big a discussion to go into details on.
And, the government does have resources to regulate the business. It does manage to prevent child prostitution, because the government gives a crap and actually invests resources. I think it could do the same in attempt to regulate regular prostitution.
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
One more thing to add.
How many of you anti-prostitution guys watch porn?????
What the hell is porn anyways besides a girl and a guy getting paid to have sex.
So why is porn okay but prostitution is not?
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To Baal and Strafe (who seem to be the major advocaters of legalized prostitution):
You're telling me you wouldn't care AT ALL if I paid your mom, wife/girlfriend, or daughter to have sex with me?
Not trying to be offensive, but I'm just trying to put myself in context to how you guys think...
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On November 28 2007 04:17 wo0py wrote:
Im not so into that kind of thing. I got an girlfriend now. And im the kind of person who likes to be with one girl for like steady.. - WHAT DID HE SAY?? -
Btw for TS, i wound't go to whorehouses cos ur friends do it. For that matter i would never go to whorehouses. I would rather help meself before i need paying for deseases and such.. Likely if you visit taiwan orsummit.
...... It's not a problem on itself that your English blows, but in combination with your blatantly idiotic statement it does annoy me.
And if you want to make a funny statement about any third world country Taiwan is one of your worst picks, try Botswana or Thailand next time.
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On November 28 2007 04:32 TheosEx wrote:
To Baal and Strafe (who seem to be the major advocaters of legalized prostitution):
You're telling me you wouldn't care AT ALL if I paid your mom, wife/girlfriend, or daughter to have sex with me?
Not trying to be offensive, but I'm just trying to put myself in context to how you guys think...
Hmm interesting question. As for my mom I would care because she is happily married(or so they make me believe ) and she doesn't need the money. So if she would let herself get paid for that I would feel pretty disappointed in her. I can't understand as to why she would ever do it and she will cause a lot of grief to my father. So yes I care. But I think I would care a lot too if she just had sex with any other person for free, but probably to less extent because when she does that her motivations are more clear to me and I could at least understand to some level.
As for my hypothetical daughter I would care too. The first reason would be that I my first purpose is to take care of my children and make sure they get the opportunity to succeed in life in whatever way they feel like most. If my daughter feels the necessity to sell her body in exchange for money I would probably feel as if I failed her. The second reason would be that as a dad you don't want to see your daughter with boyfriends. I mean it's not like you will prevent them, but I guess it's every dad will at least feel a little bit uncomfortable if his daughter dates a guy. That feeling will probably go away over time as you know the guy better and found out he's a nice guy. But when she just dates any guy at random and not only because she likes it but for just money I would hate that a lot yeah.
As for MY girlfriend, I'll just consider it cheating and meh. But you are now asking about people that all have personal intimate relations to me.
Girlfriend as in regular girlfriend, yes sure go ahead. I have a friend that is a prostitute and we get a long fine. I never drink out of the same glass as she does though;)
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On November 28 2007 04:18 Zherak wrote:
If you want to achieve a perfect market, you need perfect information. Those things the government is better suited to acquire information on, such as illegal immigrants, HIV, so on and so forth, should be regulated by the government. I think this is nearly every part prostitution - you seem to claim it isn't. Too big a discussion to go into details on.
No, I never claimed it wasn't part of prostitution. I admit that illegal sex trafficking, STDs and the such are linked to prostitution, legal or not. Nor have I ever stated any support for the legalization of prostitution. I merely discussed the necessity of regulation given the hypothetical situation in which prostitution was legal. My view is that people can value the risk of going to see a prostitution themselves and decide on their own if it is worth the money or not without having the government step in. Yes, the customer will be facing the danger of catching AIDS or funding a human trafficking syndicate, but it is up to the consumer to make this choice. It is like the smoker who accepts the risks cigarettes pose to health (their own and others, although they probably value other people's health less) yet still choose to smoke anyway because he/she values the pleasure from smoking to be greater. I suspect you believe that the government needs to intervene to prevent people from making "mistakes", whereas I do not. If that is the case we don't have much more to discuss.
And, the government does have resources to regulate the business. It does manage to prevent child prostitution, because the government gives a crap and actually invests resources. I think it could do the same in attempt to regulate regular prostitution.
Regulation of business to make sure they aren't hiring illegal labour would mean the government should check up on all sectors known for doing this, such as construction, cleaning, other manual labour etc. and not just prostitution. Why should the prostitution sector receive any special treatment? Governments do check up on firms to make sure they aren't trying to cheat them, and if prostitution was legal then I would think prostitution, like any other industry, would also be subject to checks. However, the checks arise as a result of regulation on business and not regulation on prostitution, which was my point in the previous post.
Given all the sectors that need to be regulated, the government most likely does not have the resources to check each individual business and even moreso search for every unregistered business using forced labour. This is why I said a significant black economy exists within America.
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Mostly in reply to Tien:
I do think that sex can make a special relationship better, and that a special relationship can make the sex better. Separating these two will, in my opinion, detract from both. And I do not think you can have it both ways, just like I don't think you can really celebrate Christmas 365 days a year.
Whenever you reduce my view to just an opinion, you do the same to yours. I am not claiming my view is the universal view, I am just pointing out that it does exist.
And I do say that only sex with one person ever is necessarily the right thing, just like I am not saying Christmas once in a lifetime is the way to go. There has to be a balance to prevent the magic from becoming mundane, though.
And I do realize that a lot of women have a lot of sex. Of course, per definition, there has to be as many women engaging in casual sex as men. I am just pointing out that the female sexual drive is very different from the male sexual drive, even when men and women decide to have sex together. Many men in this forum seem to trivialize fucking a man for dollars, but I think it is among the most degrading things a women can do. Much like how rape is among the worst things a woman can experience.
I am living by the views I have presented, and this far I'm a happy man for it.
Furthermore, I think we can both agree that is possible for a person to do something he later comes to regret. I think prostitution does this to a lot of women, therefore I do not want to support it. Much like how I would not want my children to drop out of school.
As for my pornography habits, I find SFW-pictures of Sarah Michelle Gellar more than stimulating enough. I don't think she really suffers from doing promo-shoots.
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On November 28 2007 04:44 Milton Friedman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2007 04:18 Zherak wrote:
If you want to achieve a perfect market, you need perfect information. Those things the government is better suited to acquire information on, such as illegal immigrants, HIV, so on and so forth, should be regulated by the government. I think this is nearly every part prostitution - you seem to claim it isn't. Too big a discussion to go into details on. Yes, the customer will be facing the danger of catching AIDS or funding a human trafficking syndicate, but it is up to the consumer to make this choice.
Sorry about only replaying to a snip of your post, but:
- It is illegal to willfully contract AIDS, or to expose oneself to unreasonable risk of contracting AIDS.
- It is illegal to not try to avoid funding human trafficking syndicates
If you are opposed to the concept of laws, we certainly have no more to discuss. It is illegal to do things which significantly cause harm to others. Smoking is not a good analogy, because it primarily hurts yourself. Making yourself a walking AIDS bomb who also requires excessive amounts of treatment or supporting trafficking which certainly hurts women cause significant harm to others. These two matters are different.
Illegal immigrants in prostitution primarily cause harm to themselves.
Illegal immigrants in regular jobs primarily cause harm to the national economy.
One of the above is certainly a more urgent matter than the other. Just like child prostitution is more urgent than regular prostitution.
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On November 28 2007 05:04 Zherak wrote:
Sorry about only replaying to a snip of your post, but:
- It is illegal to willfully contract AIDS, or to expose oneself to unreasonable risk of contracting AIDS.
- It is illegal to not try to avoid funding human trafficking syndicates
If you are opposed to the concept of laws, we certainly have no more to discuss. It is illegal to do things which significantly cause harm to others. Smoking is not a good analogy, because it primarily hurts yourself. Making yourself a walking AIDS bomb who also requires excessive amounts of treatment or supporting trafficking which certainly hurts women cause significant harm to others. These two matters are different.
Firstly, the issue at hand was that people don't have complete information regarding brothels so they wouldn't know if they are going to get AIDS and they wouldn't know if they would be helping organized crime. This is not the same as knowingly getting AIDS and funding crime. Even if the person did know then that knowledge would be a factor in choosing whether to see a certain prostitute. Furthermore, breaking the law is his/her decision and thus faces the possible consequences of that action - the potential consequences this person is willing to accept when acting.
Illegal immigrants in prostitution primarily cause harm to themselves.
Illegal immigrants in regular jobs primarily cause harm to the national economy.
One of the above is certainly a more urgent matter than the other. Just like child prostitution is more urgent than regular prostitution.
Since illegal immigrants can't complain to the government about work standards or pay, it is likely they'll be subjected to unsafe/deleterious working conditions causing themselves harm; what immediately comes to mind is the death of the Chinese cockle pickers back in 2004 (Link). Whether one industry that uses illegal immigrants is more harmful to the individual worker than another is a matter that needs to be left to empirical study.
EDIT: For the record, I'm leaning against the legalization of prostitution given the status quo. If there were some significant reforms in political policy (and such reforms will probably never take place) then legalization would have my support.
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On November 28 2007 04:24 Tien wrote:
How many of you anti-prostitution guys watch porn?????
What the hell is porn anyways besides a girl and a guy getting paid to have sex.
So why is porn okay but prostitution is not?
all of us anti-prostitute are porn lover and the reason is porn is free!
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Wtf it's illegal to have flu?
Because like young kids actually die from it at times.
You have a very strange concept of what is legal, Zherak.
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heres a question
is it true that sex is easy and everywhere in europe?
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Sex is hard. Practice, practice, practice!
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EPT
