Man if there was one thing I've always wanted is to have Guardians be as strong as they were before Brood War, were no anti-air ground units could really match them.
That's after all how they were designed. When goliaths got their range upgrade in BW maybe to counter Carriers, I guess the developers didn't really think about how it would affect the usefulness of the guardian. They are maybe my favourite unit anyways but not really worth using. Do you know the feeling? Kinda like having to abandon one of your dreams. Maybe worse actually, I don't think I can get over this if I don't get a guardian buff, I'm really bitter.
Now the F******* thing is just a gimmick unit. "Whoa look GUARDIAN SURPRISE. WEW! Something different. Well... for 60 seconds until they're all dead and haven't really done anything amazing."
All that for a f******* high-tech unit, that's costly as F******. WHY?
I don't care if it ruins the balance of the game. Screw balance. I'm not asking for the world. I just want my guardian.
Like seriously, even something cool like +3 range but +50 vespene gas cost for guardian morph or maybe make it do 40 damage but make the damage type explosive for a +50 vespene gas cost for guardian morph.
A couple things to add from my later replies to other posters in the thread.
The idea in this case is to make the guardian essentially an anti-mech unit. The reason this role would be what I'm looking forward to is that It's a ridiculous idea that a high-tech Hive level unit is used to harrass mineral lines and kill the first fighting units that Terran is able to buy (marines), rather than Terran's own high-tech or high cost units. If the Terran goes mech and also manages to get a good amount of science vessels with his goliaths and tanks, then he prolly just should win, since that's a pretty costly collection of tech and units.
Btw I kinda get that this change could be seen as a balance change too, however... it isn't a race/matchup balance change but rather a unit/strategy balance change.
And then some replies regarding the general phenomenon and project this kind of unit stat change would be a part of or relate to:
If u think this is just about my skill or about a wish for a balance change, you would have more of a point if I was arguing for changing some low tech unit's stats, that are used all the time anyways, say hydralisks or whatever.
Edit: But then again... You could argue for changing some low tech units' stats too, but if the intention isn't to affect balance but to give more to the game (different kinds of maps that are balanced in all matchups for example), then the change would have to be such that it only affects characteristics and circumstances that are relevant in those maps.
If by that u mean I'm not serious, well I don't know how to create such a testmap where you could change damagetypes for example (I don't think you can edit that normally) and I'd still need people willing to try it.
That is what I have thought about. If in the future you can get big people on board and many people to play it, it could enter like a beta phase for say... 6 months, and then if it looks good be pushed into a new patch for BW. The problem obviously is that this takes several people more than just me as an amateur and a miscellaneous cast of casuals and other amateurs playtesting it for fun a few times over the course of a few months. Only pros could judge whether it'd work and fit in next to established meta. I am not a pro. Nor a millionaire so I can't sponsor korean pros to playtest the mod. Maybe some day though.
Yea I never said Blizzard should try to fix anything by themselves, rather only after the playerbase itself has reached a satisfactory consensus. Blizzard would only implement very specific solutions crafted by the players.
Regarding interest in these sort of changes etc:
Last, just to add... There has clearly been interest even from the point of the knife's edge-top of the very top of players from among the BW pros in stats changes into the game by Flash. On his channel there's a video of him playing a custom map with tweaked unit stats for the scout (buff), the hydralisk (nerf iirc) and some other units iirc. So the korean pros are pretty open minded at least.
And how BW has changed and its future:
I truly believe that BW would have so much more to offer and I wouldn't want the Brood War boomers to be so anti-change in BW. To make the game as great as it can be, and to offer much more to enjoy by viewing, pondering and by playing the game, is all I want to do. Even chess has evolved over time, it has gotten new rules I think even centuries later. BW has changed from its release as well. There were balance patches for BW as well. Don't forget that.
Finally regarding the effect that new maps can have on gameplay and the intention behind potential unit stat changes and the push for them.
Yea but the thing is that there is a limit to what those new maps can offer.
What I'm trying to say is that: I want to push the limits of what kind of strategies, unit compositions and maps are worthwhile in a play to win situation and also in non-1v1 gametypes.
More regarding the specific hypothetical guardian buff and its effects on the meta, and the intention behind the buff:
It might be personal preference but it gives the game more variety, which means more replay-value for the game (so in other words, not the same old, same old.) I didn't say tier 1 units should lose effectiveness necessarily and DEFINITELY DIDN'T MEAN THAT CERTAIN UNITS SHOULD BE REPLACED OVERALL as the game progresses. Bio should ABSOLUTELY remain viable just like mech for example, just one more on some maps and the other on other maps.
More about my motivation for all of this:
It was a bit of in the heat of the moment when I posted the OP, frustrated how one of my favourite unit is relegated into an obscure "Yea sure you can use it, but the unit is NEVER needed" role. This for a unit at the very end of the Zerg tech tree, can people not understand why I'm F*** upset?? I see each unit as an igredient and each matchup as a separate dish as well. Glad that we agree.
So basically even in the case that the guardian is used, it's never really needed or even the most effective unit for more than a brief showcase clown show.
People keep mentioning maps maps maps. Yea sure, how much variation will there be in the future when the Third world of the future fuses with or keeps company to CB and FS and that's all you'll get? How much more can this game give at that point?
If people do not want to push the limits of what this game could be, this game withers away. There will be more people stopping playing temporarily or permanently than there will be new people joining. Mark my F****** words.
There is a LIMIT to how much variety you can have in the maps because of BALANCE, which is dependant upon the UNIT STATS.
Also it seems people don't really take into consideration that there's more people playing the game than just 1v1 players and people that play standard ladder maps.
Also, people could also take into account there's also people that don't play only 1v1 or any 1v1 at all but also team games, free for alls and island maps. Doesn't it matter what the game is like to the rest of the playerbase?
Like... Goliaths are good against Guardians, sure but in today's meta normal terran gameplay doesn't have Goliaths when usual Guardian timings hit. Typically a Terran has Vessels with Irradiate(and maybe wraiths) and M&M to counter them and I can't think of a single pro game where they teched to range Goliaths to counter it unless they started mech or are transitioning to mech and just need something to shoot up every now and again. Even then they're more likely to rely on turrets and vessels still.
Point being I don't get why you're ragging on the goliath so much lol. If anything I think the best buff to Guardians you could hope for is if they fixed their tendency to wander into range of turrets instead of firing from their max range.
On March 03 2019 07:29 MinscandBoo wrote: Like... Goliaths are good against Guardians, sure but in today's meta normal terran gameplay doesn't have Goliaths when usual Guardian timings hit. Typically a Terran has Vessels with Irradiate(and maybe wraiths) and M&M to counter them and I can't think of a single pro game where they teched to range Goliaths to counter it unless they started mech or are transitioning to mech and just need something to shoot up every now and again. Even then they're more likely to rely on turrets and vessels still.
Point being I don't get why you're ragging on the goliath so much lol. If anything I think the best buff to Guardians you could hope for is if they fixed their tendency to wander into range of turrets instead of firing from their max range.
... I dunno man maybe because guardians can't shoot at air units anyways??
Edit: Just in case that's still not clear enough, it isn't the role of guardians to fight air units.
Edit2: What I think the role of guardians is, is to wreck shit up, destroy anything on ground if they don't get too close or isn't facing too many units cost to value -wise. Like Carriers and BC's basically, just while being vulnerable to air units.
On March 03 2019 06:53 JonttuTonttu wrote: Man if there was one thing I've always wanted is to have Guardians be as strong as they were before Brood War, were no anti-air ground units could really match them.
That's after all how they were designed. When goliaths got their range upgrade in BW maybe to counter Carriers, I guess the developers didn't really think about how it would affect the usefulness of the guardian. They are maybe my favourite unit anyways but not really worth using. Do you know the feeling? Kinda like having to abandon one of your dreams. Maybe worse actually, I don't think I can get over this if I don't get a guardian buff, I'm really bitter.
Now the F******* thing is just a gimmick unit. "Whoa look GUARDIAN SURPRISE. WEW! Something different. Well... for 60 seconds until they're all dead and haven't really done anything amazing."
All that for a f******* high-tech unit, that's costly as F******. WHY?
I don't care if it ruins the balance of the game. Screw balance. I'm not asking for the world. I just want my guardian.
Like seriously, even something cool like +3 range but +50 vespene gas cost for guardian morph or maybe make it do 40 damage but make the damage type explosive for a +50 vespene gas cost for guardian morph.
Thanks for understanding.
There were a lot situations when Guardians were used without being gimmicky lol. A lot of the time if you we're capable of building a lead that couldn't overpower your opponent in ZvT but you had mutas left over from harass it was pretty okay to go ahead and create 3-4 guardians to harass expos from over water on specific maps. a few other situations but there was never a reason to have a build that prioritizes the goal of making guardians and if there was they're too late tech to try to rush or make in mass. What rank/skill level are you? <- this is pretty important because it gives us an idea of why you're thinking the way you are.
I mean the thing is that, this game could have so much more to offer in terms of gameplay if people weren't so against the idea of changing unit stats.
On March 03 2019 06:53 JonttuTonttu wrote: Man if there was one thing I've always wanted is to have Guardians be as strong as they were before Brood War, were no anti-air ground units could really match them.
That's after all how they were designed. When goliaths got their range upgrade in BW maybe to counter Carriers, I guess the developers didn't really think about how it would affect the usefulness of the guardian. They are maybe my favourite unit anyways but not really worth using. Do you know the feeling? Kinda like having to abandon one of your dreams. Maybe worse actually, I don't think I can get over this if I don't get a guardian buff, I'm really bitter.
Now the F******* thing is just a gimmick unit. "Whoa look GUARDIAN SURPRISE. WEW! Something different. Well... for 60 seconds until they're all dead and haven't really done anything amazing."
All that for a f******* high-tech unit, that's costly as F******. WHY?
I don't care if it ruins the balance of the game. Screw balance. I'm not asking for the world. I just want my guardian.
Like seriously, even something cool like +3 range but +50 vespene gas cost for guardian morph or maybe make it do 40 damage but make the damage type explosive for a +50 vespene gas cost for guardian morph.
Thanks for understanding.
There were a lot of was Guardians were used without being gimmicky lol. A lot of the time if you we're capable of building a lead that couldn't overpower your opponent in ZvT but you had mutas left over from harass it was pretty okay to go ahead and create 3-4 guardians to harass expos from over water on specific maps. a few other situations but there was never a reason to have a build that prioritizes the goal of making guardians and if there was they're too late tech to try to rush or make in mass. What rank/skill level are you? <- this is pretty important because it gives us an idea of why you're thinking the way you are.
That usage you're talking about is exactly the gimmick role I'm talking about. A pointless unit. Don't even try to argue against that lol. If the guardian was removed from the game, people wouldn't probably even notice for 6 months.
How is that gimmick role? You're making full use of units you have left over that pretty much become useless late game in small numbers. Harassing expansions is pretty necessary ZvT and depending on terrans playstyle you might be unable to just throw zerglings in multiple bases to try to harass. This is like saying Hydras are just a gimmick in ZvT? LIke it's viable depending on the opponents build, your lead etc etc. Going to tell me queens are a gimmick as well? Everything is situational. SK Terran a gimmick build since it makes 0 use of tanks? Youre dodging the only important question here.. highest rank? You're not going to get bashed for this like I said it's just to have an understanding of why you're talking the way you are.
On March 03 2019 07:57 JonttuTonttu wrote: I mean the thing is that, this game could have so much more to offer in terms of gameplay if people weren't so against the idea of changing unit stats.
In BW there is a matchup called PvZ. Play as Protoss against 5 gas Zerg with Guardian-Devourer Scourge and think how fun it would be if guardians were stronger. Also Great used guards in zvz and Post-Kespa Modesty used them against Terran. Aika mielenkiintoista.
On March 03 2019 07:29 MinscandBoo wrote: Like... Goliaths are good against Guardians, sure but in today's meta normal terran gameplay doesn't have Goliaths when usual Guardian timings hit. Typically a Terran has Vessels with Irradiate(and maybe wraiths) and M&M to counter them and I can't think of a single pro game where they teched to range Goliaths to counter it unless they started mech or are transitioning to mech and just need something to shoot up every now and again. Even then they're more likely to rely on turrets and vessels still.
Point being I don't get why you're ragging on the goliath so much lol. If anything I think the best buff to Guardians you could hope for is if they fixed their tendency to wander into range of turrets instead of firing from their max range.
... I dunno man maybe because guardians can't shoot at air units anyways??
Edit: Just in case that's still not clear enough, it isn't the role of guardians to fight air units.
Edit2: What I think the role of guardians is, is to wreck shit up, destroy anything on ground if they don't get too close or isn't facing too many units cost to value -wise. Like Carriers and BC's basically, just while being vulnerable to air units.
You're missing my point. My point is that Vessels>Goliaths in countering Guardians. A big reason for why you don't see Guardians in pro play is because all the stuff Terran is getting anyway(Vessels + M&M) is adequate for dealing with them. and the role of M&M in that situation is mostly to protect the vessels from scourge/muta dives not fight the Guardians directly. It has very little to do with how well the Guardian destroys ground units and VERY much to do with how it doesn't force the Terran to drastically change their play and how the gas would be better spent on Defilers.
But feel free to link a pro game where the Terran stopped making tanks and put down extra factories to make Golaiths to counter Guardians.
On March 03 2019 08:08 sc2CruSha wrote: How is that gimmick role? You're making full use of units you have left over that pretty much become useless late game in small numbers. Harassing expansions is pretty necessary ZvT and depending on terrans playstyle you might be unable to just throw zerglings in multiple bases to try to harass. This is like saying Hydras are just a gimmick in ZvT? LIke it's viable depending on the opponents build, your lead etc etc. Going to tell me queens are a gimmick as well? Everything is situational. SK Terran a gimmick build since it makes 0 use of tanks? Youre dodging the only important question here.. highest rank? You're not going to get bashed for this like I said it's just to have an understanding of why you're talking the way you are.
Well if you ask me that's pretty much a gimmick role. a minute of gametime to showcase one of the most advanced tech and costlier units. It's absolutely F****** pathetic. The point stands anyways because guardians aren't needed for anything in any situation that gives the unit the respect it should receive according to the tier of unit we are talking about.
sc2CruSha wrote: You're missing my point. My point is that Vessels>Goliaths in countering Guardians. A big reason for why you don't see Guardians in pro play is because all the stuff Terran is getting anyway(Vessels + M&M) is adequate for dealing with them. and the role of M&M in that situation is mostly to protect the vessels from scourge/muta dives not fight the Guardians directly. It has very little to do with how well the Guardian destroys ground units and VERY much to do with how it doesn't force the Terran to drastically change their play and how the gas would be better spent on Defilers.
But feel free to link a pro game where the Terran stopped making tanks and put down extra factories to make Golaiths to counter Guardians.
I know that, but you are missing my point. The guardian buff isn't intended to make it stronger against rines for example, hence the increased cost and damagetype change, + Show Spoiler +
or just the damagetype change if we were to use the range buff.
EDIT: not damagetype change in case of range buff but extra cost only.
On March 03 2019 08:28 sc2CruSha wrote: WHAT IS YOUR RANKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK
It's prolly D at best. It's not relevant tho, since I can see how better players play the game too, and the state the game is at doesn't really offer much to guardians considering the "tier" of unit we're talking about here.
On March 03 2019 08:27 castleeMg wrote: ahhh a sub 1500 mmr player having an issue with balance, cute
Didn't I specifically mention in my op that I don't care whether a change would wreck balance. That means at least in this case that the purpose of a buff change wouldn't be to fix balance but rather to make the game offer more variety and in my opninion better gameplay.
On March 03 2019 08:08 sc2CruSha wrote: How is that gimmick role? You're making full use of units you have left over that pretty much become useless late game in small numbers. Harassing expansions is pretty necessary ZvT and depending on terrans playstyle you might be unable to just throw zerglings in multiple bases to try to harass. This is like saying Hydras are just a gimmick in ZvT? LIke it's viable depending on the opponents build, your lead etc etc. Going to tell me queens are a gimmick as well? Everything is situational. SK Terran a gimmick build since it makes 0 use of tanks? Youre dodging the only important question here.. highest rank? You're not going to get bashed for this like I said it's just to have an understanding of why you're talking the way you are.
Well if you ask me that's pretty much a gimmick role. a minute of gametime to showcase one of the most advanced tech and costlier units. It's absolutely F****** pathetic. The point stands anyways because guardians aren't needed for anything in any situation that gives the unit the respect it should receive according to the tier of unit we are talking about.
sc2CruSha wrote: You're missing my point. My point is that Vessels>Goliaths in countering Guardians. A big reason for why you don't see Guardians in pro play is because all the stuff Terran is getting anyway(Vessels + M&M) is adequate for dealing with them. and the role of M&M in that situation is mostly to protect the vessels from scourge/muta dives not fight the Guardians directly. It has very little to do with how well the Guardian destroys ground units and VERY much to do with how it doesn't force the Terran to drastically change their play and how the gas would be better spent on Defilers.
But feel free to link a pro game where the Terran stopped making tanks and put down extra factories to make Golaiths to counter Guardians.
I know that, but you are missing my point. The guardian buff isn't intended to make it stronger against rines for example, hence the increased cost and damagetype change, or just the damagetype change if we were to use the range buff.
That minute of game time is not gimmicky since it has an actual purpose that eventually becomes necessary. we're not using the unit to show it off or for anyone to feel some kind of emotion just because it's being used. Gimmicky units/builds are there when they have no purpose and it's unnecessary but just flashy or for the attention. big difference;;
On March 03 2019 08:08 sc2CruSha wrote: How is that gimmick role? You're making full use of units you have left over that pretty much become useless late game in small numbers. Harassing expansions is pretty necessary ZvT and depending on terrans playstyle you might be unable to just throw zerglings in multiple bases to try to harass. This is like saying Hydras are just a gimmick in ZvT? LIke it's viable depending on the opponents build, your lead etc etc. Going to tell me queens are a gimmick as well? Everything is situational. SK Terran a gimmick build since it makes 0 use of tanks? Youre dodging the only important question here.. highest rank? You're not going to get bashed for this like I said it's just to have an understanding of why you're talking the way you are.
Well if you ask me that's pretty much a gimmick role. a minute of gametime to showcase one of the most advanced tech and costlier units. It's absolutely F****** pathetic. The point stands anyways because guardians aren't needed for anything in any situation that gives the unit the respect it should receive according to the tier of unit we are talking about.
sc2CruSha wrote: You're missing my point. My point is that Vessels>Goliaths in countering Guardians. A big reason for why you don't see Guardians in pro play is because all the stuff Terran is getting anyway(Vessels + M&M) is adequate for dealing with them. and the role of M&M in that situation is mostly to protect the vessels from scourge/muta dives not fight the Guardians directly. It has very little to do with how well the Guardian destroys ground units and VERY much to do with how it doesn't force the Terran to drastically change their play and how the gas would be better spent on Defilers.
But feel free to link a pro game where the Terran stopped making tanks and put down extra factories to make Golaiths to counter Guardians.
I know that, but you are missing my point. The guardian buff isn't intended to make it stronger against rines for example, hence the increased cost and damagetype change, or just the damagetype change if we were to use the range buff.
That minute of game time is not gimmicky since it has an actual purpose that eventually becomes necessary. we're not using the unit to show it off or for anyone to feel some kind of emotion just because it's being used. Gimmicky units/builds are there when they have no purpose and it's unnecessary but just flashy or for the attention. big difference;;
Well I know that too, the role is just too insignificant in terms of how much more they could offer the f***** game.
Not sure if trolling or genuinely thinks that Blizzard will suddenly changing unit stats based on your arguments.
If u think this is just about my skill or about a wish for a balance change, you would have more of a point if I was arguing for changing some low tech unit's stats, that are used all the time anyways, say hydralisks or whatever.
Edit: But then again... You could argue for changing some low tech units' stats too, but if the intention isn't to affect balance but to give more to the game (different kinds of maps that are balanced in all matchups for example), then the change would have to be such that it only affects characteristics and circumstances that are relevant in those maps.
On March 03 2019 08:41 JonttuTonttu wrote: If u think this is just about my skill or about a wish for a balance change, you would have more of a point if I was arguing for changing some low tech unit's stats, that are used all the time anyways, say hydralisks or whatever.
Edit: But then again... You could argue for changing some low tech units' stats too, but if the intention isn't to affect balance but to give more to the game (different kinds of maps that are balanced in all matchups for example), then the change would have to be such that it only affects characteristics and circumstances that are relevant in those maps.
I mean, maybe I'm mistaken, but generally people post threads in this section that are either obvious jokes/trolls or serious threads. Mostly the latter. Not stuff in between. The "for Christmas I hope Santa does ____ change to Brood War that even I admit is potentially ridiculous" is generally blog material?
On March 03 2019 08:41 JonttuTonttu wrote: If u think this is just about my skill or about a wish for a balance change, you would have more of a point if I was arguing for changing some low tech unit's stats, that are used all the time anyways, say hydralisks or whatever.
Edit: But then again... You could argue for changing some low tech units' stats too, but if the intention isn't to affect balance but to give more to the game (different kinds of maps that are balanced in all matchups for example), then the change would have to be such that it only affects characteristics and circumstances that are relevant in those maps.
I mean, maybe I'm mistaken, but generally people post threads in this section that are either obvious jokes/trolls or serious threads. Mostly the latter. Not stuff in between. The "for Christmas I hope Santa does ____ change to Brood War that even I admit is potentially ridiculous" is generally blog material?
Well It's just to give my opinion and to hear feedback and hopefully push for it. :D
Btw I kinda get that this change could be seen as a balance change too, however... it isn't a race/matchup balance change but rather a unit/strategy balance change.
On March 03 2019 07:29 MinscandBoo wrote: Like... Goliaths are good against Guardians, sure but in today's meta normal terran gameplay doesn't have Goliaths when usual Guardian timings hit. Typically a Terran has Vessels with Irradiate(and maybe wraiths) and M&M to counter them and I can't think of a single pro game where they teched to range Goliaths to counter it unless they started mech or are transitioning to mech and just need something to shoot up every now and again. Even then they're more likely to rely on turrets and vessels still.
Point being I don't get why you're ragging on the goliath so much lol. If anything I think the best buff to Guardians you could hope for is if they fixed their tendency to wander into range of turrets instead of firing from their max range.
... I dunno man maybe because guardians can't shoot at air units anyways??
Edit: Just in case that's still not clear enough, it isn't the role of guardians to fight air units.
Edit2: What I think the role of guardians is, is to wreck shit up, destroy anything on ground if they don't get too close or isn't facing too many units cost to value -wise. Like Carriers and BC's basically, just while being vulnerable to air units.
You're missing my point. My point is that Vessels>Goliaths in countering Guardians. A big reason for why you don't see Guardians in pro play is because all the stuff Terran is getting anyway(Vessels + M&M) is adequate for dealing with them. and the role of M&M in that situation is mostly to protect the vessels from scourge/muta dives not fight the Guardians directly. It has very little to do with how well the Guardian destroys ground units and VERY much to do with how it doesn't force the Terran to drastically change their play and how the gas would be better spent on Defilers.
But feel free to link a pro game where the Terran stopped making tanks and put down extra factories to make Golaiths to counter Guardians.
Don't have a VOD for that but I can probably find VODs where gaurdians are the goal in the build and terran changes up his build/game style in an attempt to counter guardians when he notices.
On March 03 2019 08:41 JonttuTonttu wrote: If u think this is just about my skill or about a wish for a balance change, you would have more of a point if I was arguing for changing some low tech unit's stats, that are used all the time anyways, say hydralisks or whatever.
Edit: But then again... You could argue for changing some low tech units' stats too, but if the intention isn't to affect balance but to give more to the game (different kinds of maps that are balanced in all matchups for example), then the change would have to be such that it only affects characteristics and circumstances that are relevant in those maps.
I mean, maybe I'm mistaken, but generally people post threads in this section that are either obvious jokes/trolls or serious threads. Mostly the latter. Not stuff in between. The "for Christmas I hope Santa does ____ change to Brood War that even I admit is potentially ridiculous" is generally blog material?
Well It's just to give my opinion and to hear feedback and hopefully push for it. :D
Btw I kinda get that this change could be seen as a balance change too, however... it isn't a race/matchup balance change but rather a unit/strategy balance change.
If you were serious about it you could release a test map that has unit attributes modded so that people can playtest it and discuss it seriously.
On March 03 2019 08:41 JonttuTonttu wrote: If u think this is just about my skill or about a wish for a balance change, you would have more of a point if I was arguing for changing some low tech unit's stats, that are used all the time anyways, say hydralisks or whatever.
Edit: But then again... You could argue for changing some low tech units' stats too, but if the intention isn't to affect balance but to give more to the game (different kinds of maps that are balanced in all matchups for example), then the change would have to be such that it only affects characteristics and circumstances that are relevant in those maps.
I mean, maybe I'm mistaken, but generally people post threads in this section that are either obvious jokes/trolls or serious threads. Mostly the latter. Not stuff in between. The "for Christmas I hope Santa does ____ change to Brood War that even I admit is potentially ridiculous" is generally blog material?
Well It's just to give my opinion and to hear feedback and hopefully push for it. :D
Btw I kinda get that this change could be seen as a balance change too, however... it isn't a race/matchup balance change but rather a unit/strategy balance change.
If you were serious about it you could release a test map that has unit attributes modded so that people can playtest it and discuss it seriously.
This seems more like "waaah."
That is what I have thought about. If in the future you can get big people on board and many people to play it, it could enter like a beta phase for say... 6 months, and then if it looks good be pushed into a new patch for BW. The problem obviously is that this takes several people more than just me as an amateur and a miscellaneous cast of casuals and other amateurs playtesting it for fun a few times over the course of a few months. Only pros could judge whether it'd work and fit in next to established meta. I am not a pro. Nor a millionaire so I can't sponsor korean pros to playtest the mod. Maybe some day though.
...and yea, it is a combination of whining and serious lobbying.
Last, just to add... There has clearly been interest even from the point of the knife's edge-top of the very top of players from among the BW pros in stats changes into the game by Flash. On his channel there's a video of him playing a custom map with tweaked unit stats for the scout (buff), the hydralisk (nerf iirc) and some other units iirc. So the korean pros are pretty open minded at least.
I truly believe that BW would have so much more to offer and I wouldn't want the Brood War boomers to be so anti-change in BW. To make the game as great as it can be, and to offer much more to enjoy by viewing, pondering and by playing the game, is all I want to do. Even chess has evolved over time, it has gotten new rules I think even centuries later. BW has changed from its release as well. There were balance patches for BW as well. Don't forget that.
I truly believe that BW would have so much more to offer and I wouldn't want the Brood War boomers to be so anti-change in BW. To make the game as great as it can be, and to offer much more to enjoy by viewing, pondering and by playing the game, is all I want to do. Even chess has evolved over time, it has gotten new rules I think even centuries later. BW has changed from its release as well. There were balance patches for BW as well. Don't forget that.
I support some minor balance changes, i just don't have faith in Blizzard to implement them. And i don't see how guardians could be made viable, the main issue is irridate ripping them to shreds not guardians.
I truly believe that BW would have so much more to offer and I wouldn't want the Brood War boomers to be so anti-change in BW. To make the game as great as it can be, and to offer much more to enjoy by viewing, pondering and by playing the game, is all I want to do. Even chess has evolved over time, it has gotten new rules I think even centuries later. BW has changed from its release as well. There were balance patches for BW as well. Don't forget that.
I support some minor balance changes, i just don't have faith in Blizzard to implement them. And i don't see how guardians could be made viable, the main issue is irridate ripping them to shreds not guardians.
Yea I never said Blizzard should try to fix anything by themselves, rather only after the playerbase itself has reached a satisfactory consensus. Blizzard would only implement very specific solutions crafted by the players.
The idea in this case is to make the guardian essentially an anti-mech unit. The reason this role would be what I'm looking forward to is that It's a ridiculous idea that a high-tech Hive level unit is used to harrass mineral lines and kill the first fighting units that Terran is able to buy (marines), rather than Terran's own high-tech or high cost units. If the Terran goes mech and also manages to get a good amount of science vessels with his goliaths and tanks, then he prolly just should win, since that's a pretty costly collection of tech and units.
On March 03 2019 10:13 Jealous wrote: NVM pointless to argue.
If by that u mean I'm not serious, well I don't know how to create such a testmap where you could change damagetypes for example (I don't think you can edit that normally) and I'd still need people willing to try it.
On March 03 2019 10:25 ggsimida wrote: zelot going 2 hatch muta into 3hatch greater spire guardians against offrace larva. larva try to be cute and build goliaths to counter the guardians https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFwJeEyO0D8
Yea, like the others said vessel would be the counter. So even in this case it's kind of because larva didn't use vessels to deal with the guardians that he had such a hard time (although still doing pretty well.)
And I have no problem with that, my intention is just that guardians would be sort of the high tech unit of choice for zerg against mech. In that situation it's a bit different clearly since we never see people take goliaths head on (even in beneficial terrain) with guardians in a situation where the terran has built a proper mech army and both players are on a roughly equal footing because they're just not good at that for what they cost.
On March 03 2019 09:43 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: I support some minor balance changes, i just don't have faith in Blizzard to implement them. And i don't see how guardians could be made viable, the main issue is irridate ripping them to shreds not guardians.
Maybe make them move a bit faster so a fast-handed zerg could more effectively spread them out or somewhat mitigate the damage from the eraser?
To address your first point, its not that initial balance change that worries me, its the balance change to fix the unintended consequences of the initial balance change and how it snowballs into a SC2-like scenario where whoever is implementing balance changes is constantly forcing changes to the meta.
There's definitely a problem of imbalance in StarCraft, and I'd say there's also a problem of resistance to change within the StarCraft community. But giving anyone the green light to dictate how we play StarCraft--assuming that the community can--could leave StarCraft a lot more enjoyable.
While I, a mediocre player, struggle to replicate the 1-base PvZ strategies I see from Snow and Best, I would rather struggle to get good enough to pull them off rather than see multiple balance changes to keep a 2-basing protoss' chance of winning around 50% vs Z.
Obviously they're not going to actually buff the guardian. But I have to admit, I do love the games when the guardian actually gets used in a serious way. That one game from Shine in ASL is legendary.
why does every zerg player have such a hard on for guardians? it feels like they never work lol. people need to just accept that they're a highly situational unit and stop trying to build them whenever they go 2 hatch muta.
Unfortunately all Blizzard cares about is Korea, so as long as majority of Koreans don't want any balance changes, it just doesn't happen. So all the discussion here is pointless.
What balance changes do the people in this thread actually have in mind? It's just odd to see people in 2019 claiming we need balance changes when the game has been near perfectly balanced for most of its existence.
How about instead of talking about balance changes we try to get new maps"
You wanna see more guardians? Go practice. Go invent strategies that incorporate them. Thats what Eriador did with queens and he got people real fucking excited when he did it. NaDa and ghosts just a few weeks back, too.
Units like queens/guardians/ghosts/scouts/dark archons make the game exciting because they're situational and rare. Because they aren't mundane like zealots and zerglings.
I don't care if it ruins the balance of the game.
Most BW players care about the balance; ~0% of them give a shit about your wants.
On March 03 2019 18:42 RJGooner wrote: What balance changes do the people in this thread actually have in mind? It's just odd to see people in 2019 claiming we need balance changes when the game has been near perfectly balanced for most of its existence.
How about instead of talking about balance changes we try to get new maps"
Yea but the thing is that there is a limit to what those new maps can offer.
What I'm trying to say is that: I want to push the limits of what kind of strategies, unit compositions and maps are worthwhile in a play to win situation and also in non-1v1 gametypes.
On March 03 2019 06:53 JonttuTonttu wrote: Man if there was one thing I've always wanted is to have Guardians be as strong as they were before Brood War, were no anti-air ground units could really match them.
That's after all how they were designed. When goliaths got their range upgrade in BW maybe to counter Carriers, I guess the developers didn't really think about how it would affect the usefulness of the guardian. They are maybe my favourite unit anyways but not really worth using. Do you know the feeling? Kinda like having to abandon one of your dreams. Maybe worse actually, I don't think I can get over this if I don't get a guardian buff, I'm really bitter.
Now the F******* thing is just a gimmick unit. "Whoa look GUARDIAN SURPRISE. WEW! Something different. Well... for 60 seconds until they're all dead and haven't really done anything amazing."
All that for a f******* high-tech unit, that's costly as F******. WHY?
I don't care if it ruins the balance of the game. Screw balance. I'm not asking for the world. I just want my guardian.
Like seriously, even something cool like +3 range but +50 vespene gas cost for guardian morph or maybe make it do 40 damage but make the damage type explosive for a +50 vespene gas cost for guardian morph.
Thanks for understanding.
Edit: A couple things to add from my later replies to other posters in the thread.
The idea in this case is to make the guardian essentially an anti-mech unit. The reason this role would be what I'm looking forward to is that It's a ridiculous idea that a high-tech Hive level unit is used to harrass mineral lines and kill the first fighting units that Terran is able to buy (marines), rather than Terran's own high-tech or high cost units. If the Terran goes mech and also manages to get a good amount of science vessels with his goliaths and tanks, then he prolly just should win, since that's a pretty costly collection of tech and units.
Btw I kinda get that this change could be seen as a balance change too, however... it isn't a race/matchup balance change but rather a unit/strategy balance change.
And then some replies regarding the general phenomenon and project this kind of unit stat change would be a part of or relate to:
If u think this is just about my skill or about a wish for a balance change, you would have more of a point if I was arguing for changing some low tech unit's stats, that are used all the time anyways, say hydralisks or whatever.
Edit: But then again... You could argue for changing some low tech units' stats too, but if the intention isn't to affect balance but to give more to the game (different kinds of maps that are balanced in all matchups for example), then the change would have to be such that it only affects characteristics and circumstances that are relevant in those maps.
If by that u mean I'm not serious, well I don't know how to create such a testmap where you could change damagetypes for example (I don't think you can edit that normally) and I'd still need people willing to try it.
That is what I have thought about. If in the future you can get big people on board and many people to play it, it could enter like a beta phase for say... 6 months, and then if it looks good be pushed into a new patch for BW. The problem obviously is that this takes several people more than just me as an amateur and a miscellaneous cast of casuals and other amateurs playtesting it for fun a few times over the course of a few months. Only pros could judge whether it'd work and fit in next to established meta. I am not a pro. Nor a millionaire so I can't sponsor korean pros to playtest the mod. Maybe some day though.
Yea I never said Blizzard should try to fix anything by themselves, rather only after the playerbase itself has reached a satisfactory consensus. Blizzard would only implement very specific solutions crafted by the players.
Last, just to add... There has clearly been interest even from the point of the knife's edge-top of the very top of players from among the BW pros in stats changes into the game by Flash. On his channel there's a video of him playing a custom map with tweaked unit stats for the scout (buff), the hydralisk (nerf iirc) and some other units iirc. So the korean pros are pretty open minded at least.
I truly believe that BW would have so much more to offer and I wouldn't want the Brood War boomers to be so anti-change in BW. To make the game as great as it can be, and to offer much more to enjoy by viewing, pondering and by playing the game, is all I want to do. Even chess has evolved over time, it has gotten new rules I think even centuries later. BW has changed from its release as well. There were balance patches for BW as well. Don't forget that.
Finally regarding the effect that new maps can have on gameplay and the intention behind potential unit stat changes and the push for them.
Yea but the thing is that there is a limit to what those new maps can offer.
What I'm trying to say is that: I want to push the limits of what kind of strategies, unit compositions and maps are worthwhile in a play to win situation and also in non-1v1 gametypes.
as someone playing broodwar since 20+ years i have to say i rarely read something more wrong xD its really funny how new players always want changes xD a comment like "not care if it ruins the balance" alone makes it a joke comment
there wont be any change in broodwar and thats GOOD no one wants it, if something isnt balanced, you balance it by MAPS.
Guardians are worth using. You can get them every game in ZvT if you want to, either offensively above the natural expansion, or defensively (four at your third and fourth, four at your main and natural) to be 100% safe against drops.
Against Protoss, I used them when I played Zerg, too. I got to B+ on ICCup as Zerg before the ladder change. B+ wasn't the best, but if I got to use them there, you get to use them at wherever you are on battle net.
Whenever you have more gas than the Protoss, and he's turtled up late game, you can trade guardians for storms to break expansions. Just keep draining his gas that goes to templars, with your gas that goes to guardians. You can also morph guardians over the Protoss' natural it if you play the muta ling sunken style.
If you want to play the old hydra guardian style from vanilla, you still can, in the form of timing pushes. It's just not imbalanced anymore. Carriers are still good, just not an automatic win in the lategame. Guardians are still good, just not an automatic win in the lategame. Mass hydra is dead, this is true, because of the medic, but StarCraft shouldn't be C&C. It shouldn't be a bunch of simple attack move units running in to each other.
As many people have argued there are actually many ways to use guardians. Not as a bread-and-butter lategame-unit, but also not just as a gimmick. Rather as a situational unit that you can mix in on a regular basis in low numbers in the lategame, or mass in certain situations that occur once every several games.
I think one idea of the OP is just personal preference: That tier1 units should at some point lose effectiveness and be replaced by higher tier units. Surely this is a design choice but I personally prefer BW as the mechanically difficult tug of war between mostly standard units that we're used to, that sometimes gets "disturbed" by these rare situations with guardians/DAs/ghosts...
To me the excitement when watching BW is to watch people handle the insane mechanical difficulty of macro and control while making good tactical decisions that can be fresh/exciting every time... I don't have to watch too many different unit types or transitions during the game. To me the "standard" styles include sufficient unit-types and transitions, and are well enough designed for me to watch them forever xD.
The thing to complain about going from vanilla to Brood War is actually not guardians, but mass hydralisk ZvT. Guardians were never good vs Zerg, and were never massed vs Protoss. Only before the irradiate buff, and when people were really bad, were they massed vs Terran. In vanilla, Just like today, given enough vessels, you stop massing guardians.
Yes, guardians destroy mech in vanilla, but mech isn't viable anyway because of the lack of charon boosters and valkyries. Mech just dies to mutalisks. Your nostalgia for mass guardians comes from a time when the game's balance was broken, and / or people were very bad. Mass guardian was never a thing, except for when Terran was underpowered and had no chance vs Z or vs lategame carriers.
If I was asked to make a balance patch for BW I would buff GHOSTS as a priority, then some thin surgical non-obvious buffs to DARK ARCHONS, QUEENS and SCOUTS.
maelstrom duration increased mind control no longer removes shields mind control cost reduced to 125 or 100 queens cast range increased or movement speed increased or both scouts uhhh -25 min -25 gas cost?
I'm not opposed to the idea of balance patch, but it would have to be microscopic changes. Its a moot point since the OP doesn't seem to care about balance. To use an analogy, each of the matchups in brood war is like a dish of food, each unit an ingredient. Therefore complaining that you can't use all ingredients at your disposal in the same dish is kinda weird. The meal is fine, you don't need to add guardians in just because you have emm.
I would love a balance patch on some of the unused units, just to wake up the creativity in people. Adjustments to ghost, medic skills, scout, DA, queen, infested terran would be great. :-)
as someone playing broodwar since 20+ years i have to say i rarely read something more wrong xD its really funny how new players always want changes xD a comment like "not care if it ruins the balance" alone makes it a joke comment
I've been playing for 19 years?
there wont be any change in broodwar and thats GOOD no one wants it, if something isnt balanced, you balance it by MAPS.
I already answered that, see:
Yea but the thing is that there is a limit to what those new maps can offer.
What I'm trying to say is that: I want to push the limits of what kind of strategies, unit compositions and maps are worthwhile in a play to win situation and also in non-1v1 gametypes.
and:
Last, just to add... There has clearly been interest even from the point of the knife's edge-top of the very top of players from among the BW pros in stats changes into the game by Flash. On his channel there's a video of him playing a custom map with tweaked unit stats for the scout (buff), the hydralisk (nerf iirc) and some other units iirc. So the korean pros are pretty open minded at least.
As many people have argued there are actually many ways to use guardians. Not as a bread-and-butter lategame-unit, but also not just as a gimmick. Rather as a situational unit that you can mix in on a regular basis in low numbers in the lategame, or mass in certain situations that occur once every several games.
Overall good post but to me an combat unit that's high tech is a gimmick unit if it isn't a central part of some counter or metagame in some situation eg. anti-mech, anti-latemech or maybe anti-mech in maps that have good terrain for them such as lots of chokes.
I think one idea of the OP is just personal preference: That tier1 units should at some point lose effectiveness and be replaced by higher tier units. Surely this is a design choice but I personally prefer BW as the mechanically difficult tug of war between mostly standard units that we're used to, that sometimes gets "disturbed" by these rare situations with guardians/DAs/ghosts...
It might be personal preference but it gives the game more variety, which means more replay-value for the game (so in other words, not the same old, same old.) I didn't say tier 1 units should lose effectiveness necessarily and DEFINITELY DIDN'T MEAN THAT CERTAIN UNITS SHOULD BE REPLACED OVERALL as the game progresses. Bio should ABSOLUTELY remain viable just like mech for example, just one more on some maps and the other on other maps.
The thing to complain about going from vanilla to Brood War is actually not guardians, but mass hydralisk ZvT. Guardians were never good vs Zerg, and were never massed vs Protoss. Only before the irradiate buff, and when people were really bad, were they massed vs Terran. In vanilla, Just like today, given enough vessels, you stop massing guardians.
Yes, guardians destroy mech in vanilla, but mech isn't viable anyway because of the lack of charon boosters and valkyries. Mech just dies to mutalisks. Your nostalgia for mass guardians comes from a time when the game's balance was broken, and / or people were very bad. Mass guardian was never a thing, except for when Terran was underpowered and had no chance vs Z or vs lategame carriers.
Ok I have to say that I don't know much at all about the original SC's metagame. However what I DO know, is that like any other person with common sense, in the instance that mech IS used, in BW, Guardians fail vs them, because of said Charon boosters.
I've never seen someone this sad about Guardians and I feel your pain, man. Good luck on your quest.
Thank you. I'll try to continue shilling.
If I was asked to make a balance patch for BW I would buff GHOSTS as a priority, then some thin surgical non-obvious buffs to DARK ARCHONS, QUEENS and SCOUTS.
Which is a sentiment that I agree with and advocate for. I would just make the Guardians into the anti Terran mech unit and make the Queen be the specialist instead of the other way around as it is now pretty much.
It baffles me how this thread reached page 3 already. Good job!
Sure it's a pretty silent forum but I do admit like a third of the posts are mine so that helps haha.
I'm not opposed to the idea of balance patch, but it would have to be microscopic changes. Its a moot point since the OP doesn't seem to care about balance. To use an analogy, each of the matchups in brood war is like a dish of food, each unit an ingredient. Therefore complaining that you can't use all ingredients at your disposal in the same dish is kinda weird. The meal is fine, you don't need to add guardians in just because you have emm.
It was a bit of in the heat of the moment when I posted the OP, frustrated how one of my favourite unit is relegated into an obscure "Yea sure you can use it, but the unit is NEVER needed" role. This for a unit at the very end of the Zerg tech tree, can people not understand why I'm F*** upset?? I see each unit as an igredient and each matchup as a separate dish as well. Glad that we agree.
So that may sound stupid but you can always make a custom map and then play it?
And you can read the OP? I'll quote again for you:
If by that u mean I'm not serious, well I don't know how to create such a testmap where you could change damagetypes for example (I don't think you can edit that normally) and I'd still need people willing to try it.
and:
That is what I have thought about. If in the future you can get big people on board and many people to play it, it could enter like a beta phase for say... 6 months, and then if it looks good be pushed into a new patch for BW. The problem obviously is that this takes several people more than just me as an amateur and a miscellaneous cast of casuals and other amateurs playtesting it for fun a few times over the course of a few months. Only pros could judge whether it'd work and fit in next to established meta. I am not a pro. Nor a millionaire so I can't sponsor korean pros to playtest the mod. Maybe some day though.
On March 06 2019 03:40 leveller wrote: If you buff guardians... Scouts will have a use. Genious.
That is also true, I know.
Edit: Although... actually P is supposed to be able to kill em with storms anyways... and although the Guardians would be more effective vs P like everything else, they would also cost more.
Guardians are not even very interesting. You attack move. No interactions with other units, or dark swarm. The unit is way too slow to abuse terrain the way carriers do, apart from islands.
The game seems to be just perfect as it is. The three races are awesome and new maps bring out the creativity. I hope Blizzard never touches unit statistics and leaves them forever as they are now. And yeah, Guardians, they look alright to me, not too good, not too bad, they have their utility here and there. Perfect for a distraction somewhere on the map, unsuitable for core of the army but that's alright. An army can't have too many cores anyway. Leave them be and enjoy the amazing gameplay that is shown to us daily.
But onto the topic... Oh jesus and people wonder why I call them a gimmick unit:
Guardians are as strong as they should be.
Good for weird timings and surprise attacks.
Also great to show absolute macro superiority!
&
The game seems to be just perfect as it is. The three races are awesome and new maps bring out the creativity. I hope Blizzard never touches unit statistics and leaves them forever as they are now. And yeah, Guardians, they look alright to me, not too good, not too bad, they have their utility here and there. Perfect for a distraction somewhere on the map, unsuitable for core of the army but that's alright. An army can't have too many cores anyway. Leave them be and enjoy the amazing gameplay that is shown to us daily.
My response:
The idea in this case is to make the guardian essentially an anti-mech unit. The reason this role would be what I'm looking forward to is that It's a ridiculous idea that a high-tech Hive level unit is used to harrass mineral lines and kill the first fighting units that Terran is able to buy (marines), rather than Terran's own high-tech or high cost units. If the Terran goes mech and also manages to get a good amount of science vessels with his goliaths and tanks, then he prolly just should win, since that's a pretty costly collection of tech and units.
&
It was a bit of in the heat of the moment when I posted the OP, frustrated how one of my favourite unit is relegated into an obscure "Yea sure you can use it, but the unit is NEVER needed" role. This for a unit at the very end of the Zerg tech tree, can people not understand why I'm F*** upset?? I see each unit as an igredient and each matchup as a separate dish as well. Glad that we agree.
Also to add, Like I mentioned already before, I'm not sure you people read through the OP but... I already said that there's a limit to what the maps can offer, and I want to push those limits further. Also, people could also take into account there's also people that don't play only 1v1 or any 1v1 at all but also team games, free for alls and island maps. Doesn't it matter what the game is like to the rest of the playerbase?
Guardians are not even very interesting. You attack move. No interactions with other units, or dark swarm. The unit is way too slow to abuse terrain the way carriers do, apart from islands.
So what? Not every unit has to have glitches that are exploited to do cool micro trix. Nor is this a moba or something either.
Not sure if this is troll thread or not, but i'll take it seriously.
Guardians are slow units that don't have much micro potential. Why do you like them so much? I've never heard anyone else name their favorite unit as the Guardian...
Anyways, they're used more than Scouts, Devours, Ghosts, Dark Archons and Infested terran. They're not that bad.
If Terran or Protoss looses their anti-air (science vessels, corsairs), guardians are useful in low numbers close to mineral lines. They're used a decent amount at pro level (ASL & KSL) and even more at my level (1900 MMR) because science vessels and corsairs require lots of micro which makes them easy to loose.
Maybe the problem lies within? I suggest you make a UMS map with buffed guardians and play against AI or someone with the same opinion on this matter (gl with that)
On March 10 2019 01:35 rockslave wrote: Guardians are not even very interesting. You attack move. No interactions with other units, or dark swarm. The unit is way too slow to abuse terrain the way carriers do, apart from islands.
To be fair, the AI is pretty stupid and if you don't pay attention guardians will voluntarily float into turret range for no reason and kill themselves. As someone who used to do mutalisk->guardian all-ins all the time, I've learned the hard way that you can't just a-move with guardians.
Guardians are not gimmicky, they are just niche and fairly map-dependent. It's not that Goliaths "counter" guardians. Terran just usually plays SK against Zerg these days, and a big slow vulnerable lumbering tier 3.5 flying unit doesn't at all fit with the meta. If Terrans were playing more Mech on smaller maps with more topography, then guardians would be pretty decent, maybe. But for Terrans that have a ton of MM running around CB or FS and 2 starports pumping vessel/valk/wraith, guardians are much less useful than any other late-game tech option for Zerg. The cost in terms of time alone is huge, just to make something so easy to kill or run away from.
JonttuTonttu. I think the main reason you're idea isn't really getting much support is for a few reaons.
1) Resistance to change. In general people are. Especially true in a community like this. I think we can be honest and acknowledge that the general BW community is not particularly excited about change, especially gameplay related change.
2)Your Premise. This is the bigger part of it. Your premise is basically that a Tier3 unit like the Guardian should be a big ole boss boy that can take on other Tier2/3 from other races. From there, you lay out a fairly strong case for why the Guardian does not live up to that role. You have developed that part of the argument well.
The part of the argument that you almost completely ignored, which is a little confusing, is why exactly Tier3 units should be a big boss counter to other high tech units. This is where you are getting resistance. Lots of people aren't sold on this idea, and you have made little defense of that premise. This is rather analgous to laying out a good and comphrensive argument for why pens are terrible for erasing, and suggesting that pens should be better for erasing....without layout out an argument for why pens SHOULD be easy to erase in the first place. It's like you ignored the important part of your argument and only included the very obvious part.
3) Interest/Fun to Play & Watch - The third point, perhaps less important than the second one but still relevant, is the enjoyment to the viewer and the player. The Guardian is a pretty simple unit. Add 3 range to it and it's a massively simple unit. Mass Guardians. A move. Fuck shit up. As a player, that doesn't sound very exciting. As a spectator that....also doesn't sound very exciting. It's just a move.
So that's another part of your argument that's missing. How would Guardians with +3 range make the game more interesting either to watch or to play? If they wouldn't, then you need to argue and defend why that wouldn't matter.
On March 10 2019 07:43 L_Master wrote: JonttuTonttu. I think the main reason you're idea isn't really getting much support is for a few reaons.
There's really only one main reason, and that's because every 50 APM pub-game only HunterzZ 3v3 FREE BEER player has some skewed and unique perspective on balance, unit interactions, gameplay, etc. Some of them are basically delusional, or at least so uninformed as to appear that way.
What does this mean?
These players should not have any say in how the game or the units are balanced, because scrubby suggestions could tip the balance at the top level (which is the only place where it truly matters). Also, that these players will never agree on one point anyway. If we went out and surveyed every active noob on Battle.net, I would expect to get a unique response from each one about what they think would improve the game. How would you appease all of them? How do you differentiate the merely myopic suggestions from the absolutely idiotic in any productive way?
The answer is simple: you don't. You simply ignore them. The game is fine as is at the top level as is demonstrated by the variety of races represented in each top level tournament. Some whiny low level players who say that ZvT is boring and needs buffed Guardians to shake up the meta or whatever should be ignored.
Man when I play starcraft sometimes I try to go mass Broodling because they are my favorite unit, but it never works out because they are super under-powered right now. If medics were not in the game (like before Broodwar came out, 19 years ago) then mass broodling strategies would still be totally legit because when Blizzard added Medics they didn't even think about how broken firebats would be with Stim.
Think about it. Firebats were already pretty good before medics were added to the game (you know 19 years ago) because they could Stim and then kill a lot of Broodlings, but at the cost of their health. That seems fair to me. But then Blizzard added Medics with broodwar and probably didn't even test FB + Medic against mass Broodling because once you get stim the broodlings just die so ez and the firebats get healed up and it is like Stim is a free spell!
So now Broodling is not even a gimmick unit because FU**** FBS AND MEDIC ARE OP AND STUPID. Seriously Blizzard why would you even put Broodlings in the game if you don't want people to use them? Like wtf Bllizz? Oh, you want to do something diiiffferent? and build co0ol units like F****** BRODDLING? No, you can't do anything cool or be unique because of F********* FIREBATS and MEDICS AND STIM! It is really frustrating you know?
I don't care if it ruins the balance of the game. Screw balance. I'm not asking for the world. I am not asking you to consider patching a crucial aspect of this game. Which is literally twenty years old, has been played competitively for almost as long, and hasn't had a balance patch for the better part of 18 years. I am not asking you to up-heave the very foundations of two decades of brilliant professional play, strategical maneuvering and decisive, long-lasting metagame shifts. I am not asking you to massively reconfigure the delicate strategical balance that has lasted in this 20 year old game. A game that is basically a professional sport in South Korea and remains loved by thousands, if not millions of people across the face of this planet. I just want my broodling.
Like seriously, even something super cool and smart like making Defilers create Broodlings for free when burrowed, but then instead of two broodlings you only get one every 5 seconds. Or maybe make Queens cost 57 gas more, but instead of Parasite they start with Broodling and it only costs 50 energy.
If we don't change things within the Broodwar community and start changing the unit stats then bw is gonna die guys, becuz after 20 years people are going to start to get bored. Mark my F****** words.
i'm obviously against balance changes in this game but guardian timings or even guardian use in general is one of the things remaining that's untapped in this game. If we can see terrans do nuke timings then anything is possible and we might one day see something once thought to be ridiculous like hydra/muta into guardians vs mech instead of queens, or a guardian timing vs P once initial corsairs died, etc..
At D level, make guardians, knock yourself out. I could make BCs in TvZ too because i float so much resources lol
On March 11 2019 04:31 TwiggyWan wrote: i'm obviously against balance changes in this game but guardian timings or even guardian use in general is one of the things remaining that's untapped in this game. If we can see terrans do nuke timings then anything is possible and we might one day see something once thought to be ridiculous like hydra/muta into guardians vs mech instead of queens, or a guardian timing vs P once initial corsairs died, etc..
At D level, make guardians, knock yourself out. I could make BCs in TvZ too because i float so much resources lol
The sentiment behind what you are saying is correct, but, even at the highest level, people do get battle cruisers vs Zerg, and guardians vs Terran
Sacsri just beat Rush on stream going defensive hydra guardian lurker in a long macro game. He used the army to stop attacks, not to perform a timing attack of his own
EPT![[image loading]](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/047/536/562.png)
