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Man if there was one thing I've always wanted is to have Guardians be as strong as they were before Brood War, were no anti-air ground units could really match them.
That's after all how they were designed. When goliaths got their range upgrade in BW maybe to counter Carriers, I guess the developers didn't really think about how it would affect the usefulness of the guardian. They are maybe my favourite unit anyways but not really worth using. Do you know the feeling? Kinda like having to abandon one of your dreams. Maybe worse actually, I don't think I can get over this if I don't get a guardian buff, I'm really bitter.
Now the F******* thing is just a gimmick unit. "Whoa look GUARDIAN SURPRISE. WEW! Something different. Well... for 60 seconds until they're all dead and haven't really done anything amazing."
All that for a f******* high-tech unit, that's costly as F******. WHY?
I don't care if it ruins the balance of the game. Screw balance. I'm not asking for the world. I just want my guardian.
Like seriously, even something cool like +3 range but +50 vespene gas cost for guardian morph or maybe make it do 40 damage but make the damage type explosive for a +50 vespene gas cost for guardian morph.
Thanks for understanding.
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Edit:
A couple things to add from my later replies to other posters in the thread.
The idea in this case is to make the guardian essentially an anti-mech unit. The reason this role would be what I'm looking forward to is that It's a ridiculous idea that a high-tech Hive level unit is used to harrass mineral lines and kill the first fighting units that Terran is able to buy (marines), rather than Terran's own high-tech or high cost units. If the Terran goes mech and also manages to get a good amount of science vessels with his goliaths and tanks, then he prolly just should win, since that's a pretty costly collection of tech and units.
Btw I kinda get that this change could be seen as a balance change too, however... it isn't a race/matchup balance change but rather a unit/strategy balance change.
And then some replies regarding the general phenomenon and project this kind of unit stat change would be a part of or relate to:
If u think this is just about my skill or about a wish for a balance change, you would have more of a point if I was arguing for changing some low tech unit's stats, that are used all the time anyways, say hydralisks or whatever.
Edit: But then again... You could argue for changing some low tech units' stats too, but if the intention isn't to affect balance but to give more to the game (different kinds of maps that are balanced in all matchups for example), then the change would have to be such that it only affects characteristics and circumstances that are relevant in those maps.
If by that u mean I'm not serious, well I don't know how to create such a testmap where you could change damagetypes for example (I don't think you can edit that normally) and I'd still need people willing to try it.
That is what I have thought about. If in the future you can get big people on board and many people to play it, it could enter like a beta phase for say... 6 months, and then if it looks good be pushed into a new patch for BW. The problem obviously is that this takes several people more than just me as an amateur and a miscellaneous cast of casuals and other amateurs playtesting it for fun a few times over the course of a few months. Only pros could judge whether it'd work and fit in next to established meta. I am not a pro. Nor a millionaire so I can't sponsor korean pros to playtest the mod. Maybe some day though.
Yea I never said Blizzard should try to fix anything by themselves, rather only after the playerbase itself has reached a satisfactory consensus. Blizzard would only implement very specific solutions crafted by the players.
Regarding interest in these sort of changes etc:
Last, just to add... There has clearly been interest even from the point of the knife's edge-top of the very top of players from among the BW pros in stats changes into the game by Flash. On his channel there's a video of him playing a custom map with tweaked unit stats for the scout (buff), the hydralisk (nerf iirc) and some other units iirc. So the korean pros are pretty open minded at least.
And how BW has changed and its future:
I truly believe that BW would have so much more to offer and I wouldn't want the Brood War boomers to be so anti-change in BW. To make the game as great as it can be, and to offer much more to enjoy by viewing, pondering and by playing the game, is all I want to do. Even chess has evolved over time, it has gotten new rules I think even centuries later.
BW has changed from its release as well.
There were balance patches for BW as well. Don't forget that.
Finally regarding the effect that new maps can have on gameplay and the intention behind potential unit stat changes and the push for them.
Yea but the thing is that there is a limit to what those new maps can offer.
What I'm trying to say is that:
I want to push the limits of what kind of strategies, unit compositions and maps are worthwhile in a play to win situation and also in non-1v1 gametypes.
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Edit 2:
More regarding the specific hypothetical guardian buff and its effects on the meta, and the intention behind the buff:
It might be personal preference but it gives the game more variety, which means more replay-value for the game (so in other words, not the same old, same old.)
I didn't say tier 1 units should lose effectiveness necessarily and DEFINITELY DIDN'T MEAN THAT CERTAIN UNITS SHOULD BE REPLACED OVERALL as the game progresses. Bio should ABSOLUTELY remain viable just like mech for example, just one more on some maps and the other on other maps.
More about my motivation for all of this:
It was a bit of in the heat of the moment when I posted the OP, frustrated how one of my favourite unit is relegated into an obscure "Yea sure you can use it, but the unit is NEVER needed" role. This for a unit at the very end of the Zerg tech tree, can people not understand why I'm F*** upset??
I see each unit as an igredient and each matchup as a separate dish as well. Glad that we agree.
So basically even in the case that the guardian is used, it's never really needed or even the most effective unit for more than a brief showcase clown show.
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People keep mentioning maps maps maps. Yea sure, how much variation will there be in the future when the Third world of the future fuses with or keeps company to CB and FS and that's all you'll get? How much more can this game give at that point?
If people do not want to push the limits of what this game could be, this game withers away. There will be more people stopping playing temporarily or permanently than there will be new people joining. Mark my F****** words.
There is a LIMIT to how much variety you can have in the maps because of BALANCE, which is dependant upon the UNIT STATS.
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Last edit:
Also it seems people don't really take into consideration that there's more people playing the game than just 1v1 players and people that play standard ladder maps.
Also, people could also take into account there's also people that don't play only 1v1 or any 1v1 at all but also team games, free for alls and island maps. Doesn't it matter what the game is like to the rest of the playerbase?
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Anything outside of a defilier centric zerg gameplan isnt really all that viable. So if you like one unit, zerg is for you!
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Like... Goliaths are good against Guardians, sure but in today's meta normal terran gameplay doesn't have Goliaths when usual Guardian timings hit. Typically a Terran has Vessels with Irradiate(and maybe wraiths) and M&M to counter them and I can't think of a single pro game where they teched to range Goliaths to counter it unless they started mech or are transitioning to mech and just need something to shoot up every now and again. Even then they're more likely to rely on turrets and vessels still.
Point being I don't get why you're ragging on the goliath so much lol. If anything I think the best buff to Guardians you could hope for is if they fixed their tendency to wander into range of turrets instead of firing from their max range.
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On March 03 2019 07:29 MinscandBoo wrote:
Like... Goliaths are good against Guardians, sure but in today's meta normal terran gameplay doesn't have Goliaths when usual Guardian timings hit. Typically a Terran has Vessels with Irradiate(and maybe wraiths) and M&M to counter them and I can't think of a single pro game where they teched to range Goliaths to counter it unless they started mech or are transitioning to mech and just need something to shoot up every now and again. Even then they're more likely to rely on turrets and vessels still.
Point being I don't get why you're ragging on the goliath so much lol. If anything I think the best buff to Guardians you could hope for is if they fixed their tendency to wander into range of turrets instead of firing from their max range.
... I dunno man maybe because guardians can't shoot at air units anyways??
Edit: Just in case that's still not clear enough, it isn't the role of guardians to fight air units.
Edit2: What I think the role of guardians is, is to wreck shit up, destroy anything on ground if they don't get too close or isn't facing too many units cost to value -wise. Like Carriers and BC's basically, just while being vulnerable to air units.
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On March 03 2019 06:53 JonttuTonttu wrote:
Man if there was one thing I've always wanted is to have Guardians be as strong as they were before Brood War, were no anti-air ground units could really match them.
That's after all how they were designed. When goliaths got their range upgrade in BW maybe to counter Carriers, I guess the developers didn't really think about how it would affect the usefulness of the guardian. They are maybe my favourite unit anyways but not really worth using. Do you know the feeling? Kinda like having to abandon one of your dreams. Maybe worse actually, I don't think I can get over this if I don't get a guardian buff, I'm really bitter.
Now the F******* thing is just a gimmick unit. "Whoa look GUARDIAN SURPRISE. WEW! Something different. Well... for 60 seconds until they're all dead and haven't really done anything amazing."
All that for a f******* high-tech unit, that's costly as F******. WHY?
I don't care if it ruins the balance of the game. Screw balance. I'm not asking for the world. I just want my guardian.
Like seriously, even something cool like +3 range but +50 vespene gas cost for guardian morph or maybe make it do 40 damage but make the damage type explosive for a +50 vespene gas cost for guardian morph.
Thanks for understanding.
There were a lot situations when Guardians were used without being gimmicky lol. A lot of the time if you we're capable of building a lead that couldn't overpower your opponent in ZvT but you had mutas left over from harass it was pretty okay to go ahead and create 3-4 guardians to harass expos from over water on specific maps. a few other situations but there was never a reason to have a build that prioritizes the goal of making guardians and if there was they're too late tech to try to rush or make in mass. What rank/skill level are you? <- this is pretty important because it gives us an idea of why you're thinking the way you are.
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I mean the thing is that, this game could have so much more to offer in terms of gameplay if people weren't so against the idea of changing unit stats.
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On March 03 2019 07:56 sc2CruSha wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2019 06:53 JonttuTonttu wrote:
Man if there was one thing I've always wanted is to have Guardians be as strong as they were before Brood War, were no anti-air ground units could really match them.
That's after all how they were designed. When goliaths got their range upgrade in BW maybe to counter Carriers, I guess the developers didn't really think about how it would affect the usefulness of the guardian. They are maybe my favourite unit anyways but not really worth using. Do you know the feeling? Kinda like having to abandon one of your dreams. Maybe worse actually, I don't think I can get over this if I don't get a guardian buff, I'm really bitter.
Now the F******* thing is just a gimmick unit. "Whoa look GUARDIAN SURPRISE. WEW! Something different. Well... for 60 seconds until they're all dead and haven't really done anything amazing."
All that for a f******* high-tech unit, that's costly as F******. WHY?
I don't care if it ruins the balance of the game. Screw balance. I'm not asking for the world. I just want my guardian.
Like seriously, even something cool like +3 range but +50 vespene gas cost for guardian morph or maybe make it do 40 damage but make the damage type explosive for a +50 vespene gas cost for guardian morph.
Thanks for understanding. There were a lot of was Guardians were used without being gimmicky lol. A lot of the time if you we're capable of building a lead that couldn't overpower your opponent in ZvT but you had mutas left over from harass it was pretty okay to go ahead and create 3-4 guardians to harass expos from over water on specific maps. a few other situations but there was never a reason to have a build that prioritizes the goal of making guardians and if there was they're too late tech to try to rush or make in mass. What rank/skill level are you? <- this is pretty important because it gives us an idea of why you're thinking the way you are.
That usage you're talking about is exactly the gimmick role I'm talking about. A pointless unit. Don't even try to argue against that lol. If the guardian was removed from the game, people wouldn't probably even notice for 6 months.
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How is that gimmick role? You're making full use of units you have left over that pretty much become useless late game in small numbers. Harassing expansions is pretty necessary ZvT and depending on terrans playstyle you might be unable to just throw zerglings in multiple bases to try to harass. This is like saying Hydras are just a gimmick in ZvT? LIke it's viable depending on the opponents build, your lead etc etc. Going to tell me queens are a gimmick as well? Everything is situational. SK Terran a gimmick build since it makes 0 use of tanks? Youre dodging the only important question here.. highest rank? You're not going to get bashed for this like I said it's just to have an understanding of why you're talking the way you are.
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On March 03 2019 07:57 JonttuTonttu wrote:
I mean the thing is that, this game could have so much more to offer in terms of gameplay if people weren't so against the idea of changing unit stats.
In BW there is a matchup called PvZ. Play as Protoss against 5 gas Zerg with Guardian-Devourer Scourge and think how fun it would be if guardians were stronger.
Also Great used guards in zvz and Post-Kespa Modesty used them against Terran. Aika mielenkiintoista.
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On March 03 2019 07:47 JonttuTonttu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2019 07:29 MinscandBoo wrote:
Like... Goliaths are good against Guardians, sure but in today's meta normal terran gameplay doesn't have Goliaths when usual Guardian timings hit. Typically a Terran has Vessels with Irradiate(and maybe wraiths) and M&M to counter them and I can't think of a single pro game where they teched to range Goliaths to counter it unless they started mech or are transitioning to mech and just need something to shoot up every now and again. Even then they're more likely to rely on turrets and vessels still.
Point being I don't get why you're ragging on the goliath so much lol. If anything I think the best buff to Guardians you could hope for is if they fixed their tendency to wander into range of turrets instead of firing from their max range. ... I dunno man maybe because guardians can't shoot at air units anyways?? Edit: Just in case that's still not clear enough, it isn't the role of guardians to fight air units. Edit2: What I think the role of guardians is, is to wreck shit up, destroy anything on ground if they don't get too close or isn't facing too many units cost to value -wise. Like Carriers and BC's basically, just while being vulnerable to air units.
You're missing my point. My point is that Vessels>Goliaths in countering Guardians. A big reason for why you don't see Guardians in pro play is because all the stuff Terran is getting anyway(Vessels + M&M) is adequate for dealing with them. and the role of M&M in that situation is mostly to protect the vessels from scourge/muta dives not fight the Guardians directly. It has very little to do with how well the Guardian destroys ground units and VERY much to do with how it doesn't force the Terran to drastically change their play and how the gas would be better spent on Defilers.
But feel free to link a pro game where the Terran stopped making tanks and put down extra factories to make Golaiths to counter Guardians.
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ahhh a sub 1500 mmr player having an issue with balance, cute
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WHAT IS YOUR RANKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK
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On March 03 2019 08:08 sc2CruSha wrote:
How is that gimmick role? You're making full use of units you have left over that pretty much become useless late game in small numbers. Harassing expansions is pretty necessary ZvT and depending on terrans playstyle you might be unable to just throw zerglings in multiple bases to try to harass. This is like saying Hydras are just a gimmick in ZvT? LIke it's viable depending on the opponents build, your lead etc etc. Going to tell me queens are a gimmick as well? Everything is situational. SK Terran a gimmick build since it makes 0 use of tanks? Youre dodging the only important question here.. highest rank? You're not going to get bashed for this like I said it's just to have an understanding of why you're talking the way you are.
Well if you ask me that's pretty much a gimmick role. a minute of gametime to showcase one of the most advanced tech and costlier units. It's absolutely F****** pathetic. The point stands anyways because guardians aren't needed for anything in any situation that gives the unit the respect it should receive according to the tier of unit we are talking about.
sc2CruSha wrote:
You're missing my point. My point is that Vessels>Goliaths in countering Guardians. A big reason for why you don't see Guardians in pro play is because all the stuff Terran is getting anyway(Vessels + M&M) is adequate for dealing with them. and the role of M&M in that situation is mostly to protect the vessels from scourge/muta dives not fight the Guardians directly. It has very little to do with how well the Guardian destroys ground units and VERY much to do with how it doesn't force the Terran to drastically change their play and how the gas would be better spent on Defilers.
But feel free to link a pro game where the Terran stopped making tanks and put down extra factories to make Golaiths to counter Guardians.
I know that, but you are missing my point.
The guardian buff isn't intended to make it stronger against rines for example, hence the increased cost and damagetype change, + Show Spoiler +or just the damagetype change if we were to use the range buff.
EDIT: not damagetype change in case of range buff but extra cost only.
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On March 03 2019 08:28 sc2CruSha wrote:
WHAT IS YOUR RANKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK
It's prolly D at best.
It's not relevant tho, since I can see how better players play the game too, and the state the game is at doesn't really offer much to guardians considering the "tier" of unit we're talking about here.
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On March 03 2019 08:27 castleeMg wrote:
ahhh a sub 1500 mmr player having an issue with balance, cute
Didn't I specifically mention in my op that I don't care whether a change would wreck balance. That means at least in this case that the purpose of a buff change wouldn't be to fix balance but rather to make the game offer more variety and in my opninion better gameplay.
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Not sure if trolling or genuinely thinks that Blizzard will suddenly changing unit stats based on your arguments.
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On March 03 2019 08:28 JonttuTonttu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2019 08:08 sc2CruSha wrote:
How is that gimmick role? You're making full use of units you have left over that pretty much become useless late game in small numbers. Harassing expansions is pretty necessary ZvT and depending on terrans playstyle you might be unable to just throw zerglings in multiple bases to try to harass. This is like saying Hydras are just a gimmick in ZvT? LIke it's viable depending on the opponents build, your lead etc etc. Going to tell me queens are a gimmick as well? Everything is situational. SK Terran a gimmick build since it makes 0 use of tanks? Youre dodging the only important question here.. highest rank? You're not going to get bashed for this like I said it's just to have an understanding of why you're talking the way you are. Well if you ask me that's pretty much a gimmick role. a minute of gametime to showcase one of the most advanced tech and costlier units. It's absolutely F****** pathetic. The point stands anyways because guardians aren't needed for anything in any situation that gives the unit the respect it should receive according to the tier of unit we are talking about. Show nested quote +sc2CruSha wrote:
You're missing my point. My point is that Vessels>Goliaths in countering Guardians. A big reason for why you don't see Guardians in pro play is because all the stuff Terran is getting anyway(Vessels + M&M) is adequate for dealing with them. and the role of M&M in that situation is mostly to protect the vessels from scourge/muta dives not fight the Guardians directly. It has very little to do with how well the Guardian destroys ground units and VERY much to do with how it doesn't force the Terran to drastically change their play and how the gas would be better spent on Defilers.
But feel free to link a pro game where the Terran stopped making tanks and put down extra factories to make Golaiths to counter Guardians. I know that, but you are missing my point. The guardian buff isn't intended to make it stronger against rines for example, hence the increased cost and damagetype change, or just the damagetype change if we were to use the range buff.
That minute of game time is not gimmicky since it has an actual purpose that eventually becomes necessary. we're not using the unit to show it off or for anyone to feel some kind of emotion just because it's being used. Gimmicky units/builds are there when they have no purpose and it's unnecessary but just flashy or for the attention. big difference;;
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On March 03 2019 08:34 sc2CruSha wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2019 08:28 JonttuTonttu wrote:On March 03 2019 08:08 sc2CruSha wrote:
How is that gimmick role? You're making full use of units you have left over that pretty much become useless late game in small numbers. Harassing expansions is pretty necessary ZvT and depending on terrans playstyle you might be unable to just throw zerglings in multiple bases to try to harass. This is like saying Hydras are just a gimmick in ZvT? LIke it's viable depending on the opponents build, your lead etc etc. Going to tell me queens are a gimmick as well? Everything is situational. SK Terran a gimmick build since it makes 0 use of tanks? Youre dodging the only important question here.. highest rank? You're not going to get bashed for this like I said it's just to have an understanding of why you're talking the way you are. Well if you ask me that's pretty much a gimmick role. a minute of gametime to showcase one of the most advanced tech and costlier units. It's absolutely F****** pathetic. The point stands anyways because guardians aren't needed for anything in any situation that gives the unit the respect it should receive according to the tier of unit we are talking about. sc2CruSha wrote:
You're missing my point. My point is that Vessels>Goliaths in countering Guardians. A big reason for why you don't see Guardians in pro play is because all the stuff Terran is getting anyway(Vessels + M&M) is adequate for dealing with them. and the role of M&M in that situation is mostly to protect the vessels from scourge/muta dives not fight the Guardians directly. It has very little to do with how well the Guardian destroys ground units and VERY much to do with how it doesn't force the Terran to drastically change their play and how the gas would be better spent on Defilers.
But feel free to link a pro game where the Terran stopped making tanks and put down extra factories to make Golaiths to counter Guardians. I know that, but you are missing my point. The guardian buff isn't intended to make it stronger against rines for example, hence the increased cost and damagetype change, or just the damagetype change if we were to use the range buff. That minute of game time is not gimmicky since it has an actual purpose that eventually becomes necessary. we're not using the unit to show it off or for anyone to feel some kind of emotion just because it's being used. Gimmicky units/builds are there when they have no purpose and it's unnecessary but just flashy or for the attention. big difference;;
Well I know that too, the role is just too insignificant in terms of how much more they could offer the f***** game.
Not sure if trolling or genuinely thinks that Blizzard will suddenly changing unit stats based on your arguments.
Maybe if I pray?
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If u think this is just about my skill or about a wish for a balance change, you would have more of a point if I was arguing for changing some low tech unit's stats, that are used all the time anyways, say hydralisks or whatever.
Edit: But then again... You could argue for changing some low tech units' stats too, but if the intention isn't to affect balance but to give more to the game (different kinds of maps that are balanced in all matchups for example), then the change would have to be such that it only affects characteristics and circumstances that are relevant in those maps.
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On March 03 2019 08:41 JonttuTonttu wrote:
If u think this is just about my skill or about a wish for a balance change, you would have more of a point if I was arguing for changing some low tech unit's stats, that are used all the time anyways, say hydralisks or whatever.
Edit: But then again... You could argue for changing some low tech units' stats too, but if the intention isn't to affect balance but to give more to the game (different kinds of maps that are balanced in all matchups for example), then the change would have to be such that it only affects characteristics and circumstances that are relevant in those maps.
I mean, maybe I'm mistaken, but generally people post threads in this section that are either obvious jokes/trolls or serious threads. Mostly the latter. Not stuff in between. The "for Christmas I hope Santa does ____ change to Brood War that even I admit is potentially ridiculous" is generally blog material?
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EPT
