On March 03 2019 08:41 JonttuTonttu wrote: If u think this is just about my skill or about a wish for a balance change, you would have more of a point if I was arguing for changing some low tech unit's stats, that are used all the time anyways, say hydralisks or whatever.
Edit: But then again... You could argue for changing some low tech units' stats too, but if the intention isn't to affect balance but to give more to the game (different kinds of maps that are balanced in all matchups for example), then the change would have to be such that it only affects characteristics and circumstances that are relevant in those maps.
I mean, maybe I'm mistaken, but generally people post threads in this section that are either obvious jokes/trolls or serious threads. Mostly the latter. Not stuff in between. The "for Christmas I hope Santa does ____ change to Brood War that even I admit is potentially ridiculous" is generally blog material?
Well It's just to give my opinion and to hear feedback and hopefully push for it. :D
Btw I kinda get that this change could be seen as a balance change too, however... it isn't a race/matchup balance change but rather a unit/strategy balance change.
On March 03 2019 07:29 MinscandBoo wrote: Like... Goliaths are good against Guardians, sure but in today's meta normal terran gameplay doesn't have Goliaths when usual Guardian timings hit. Typically a Terran has Vessels with Irradiate(and maybe wraiths) and M&M to counter them and I can't think of a single pro game where they teched to range Goliaths to counter it unless they started mech or are transitioning to mech and just need something to shoot up every now and again. Even then they're more likely to rely on turrets and vessels still.
Point being I don't get why you're ragging on the goliath so much lol. If anything I think the best buff to Guardians you could hope for is if they fixed their tendency to wander into range of turrets instead of firing from their max range.
... I dunno man maybe because guardians can't shoot at air units anyways??
Edit: Just in case that's still not clear enough, it isn't the role of guardians to fight air units.
Edit2: What I think the role of guardians is, is to wreck shit up, destroy anything on ground if they don't get too close or isn't facing too many units cost to value -wise. Like Carriers and BC's basically, just while being vulnerable to air units.
You're missing my point. My point is that Vessels>Goliaths in countering Guardians. A big reason for why you don't see Guardians in pro play is because all the stuff Terran is getting anyway(Vessels + M&M) is adequate for dealing with them. and the role of M&M in that situation is mostly to protect the vessels from scourge/muta dives not fight the Guardians directly. It has very little to do with how well the Guardian destroys ground units and VERY much to do with how it doesn't force the Terran to drastically change their play and how the gas would be better spent on Defilers.
But feel free to link a pro game where the Terran stopped making tanks and put down extra factories to make Golaiths to counter Guardians.
Don't have a VOD for that but I can probably find VODs where gaurdians are the goal in the build and terran changes up his build/game style in an attempt to counter guardians when he notices.
On March 03 2019 08:41 JonttuTonttu wrote: If u think this is just about my skill or about a wish for a balance change, you would have more of a point if I was arguing for changing some low tech unit's stats, that are used all the time anyways, say hydralisks or whatever.
Edit: But then again... You could argue for changing some low tech units' stats too, but if the intention isn't to affect balance but to give more to the game (different kinds of maps that are balanced in all matchups for example), then the change would have to be such that it only affects characteristics and circumstances that are relevant in those maps.
I mean, maybe I'm mistaken, but generally people post threads in this section that are either obvious jokes/trolls or serious threads. Mostly the latter. Not stuff in between. The "for Christmas I hope Santa does ____ change to Brood War that even I admit is potentially ridiculous" is generally blog material?
Well It's just to give my opinion and to hear feedback and hopefully push for it. :D
Btw I kinda get that this change could be seen as a balance change too, however... it isn't a race/matchup balance change but rather a unit/strategy balance change.
If you were serious about it you could release a test map that has unit attributes modded so that people can playtest it and discuss it seriously.
On March 03 2019 08:41 JonttuTonttu wrote: If u think this is just about my skill or about a wish for a balance change, you would have more of a point if I was arguing for changing some low tech unit's stats, that are used all the time anyways, say hydralisks or whatever.
Edit: But then again... You could argue for changing some low tech units' stats too, but if the intention isn't to affect balance but to give more to the game (different kinds of maps that are balanced in all matchups for example), then the change would have to be such that it only affects characteristics and circumstances that are relevant in those maps.
I mean, maybe I'm mistaken, but generally people post threads in this section that are either obvious jokes/trolls or serious threads. Mostly the latter. Not stuff in between. The "for Christmas I hope Santa does ____ change to Brood War that even I admit is potentially ridiculous" is generally blog material?
Well It's just to give my opinion and to hear feedback and hopefully push for it. :D
Btw I kinda get that this change could be seen as a balance change too, however... it isn't a race/matchup balance change but rather a unit/strategy balance change.
If you were serious about it you could release a test map that has unit attributes modded so that people can playtest it and discuss it seriously.
This seems more like "waaah."
That is what I have thought about. If in the future you can get big people on board and many people to play it, it could enter like a beta phase for say... 6 months, and then if it looks good be pushed into a new patch for BW. The problem obviously is that this takes several people more than just me as an amateur and a miscellaneous cast of casuals and other amateurs playtesting it for fun a few times over the course of a few months. Only pros could judge whether it'd work and fit in next to established meta. I am not a pro. Nor a millionaire so I can't sponsor korean pros to playtest the mod. Maybe some day though.
...and yea, it is a combination of whining and serious lobbying.
Last, just to add... There has clearly been interest even from the point of the knife's edge-top of the very top of players from among the BW pros in stats changes into the game by Flash. On his channel there's a video of him playing a custom map with tweaked unit stats for the scout (buff), the hydralisk (nerf iirc) and some other units iirc. So the korean pros are pretty open minded at least.
I truly believe that BW would have so much more to offer and I wouldn't want the Brood War boomers to be so anti-change in BW. To make the game as great as it can be, and to offer much more to enjoy by viewing, pondering and by playing the game, is all I want to do. Even chess has evolved over time, it has gotten new rules I think even centuries later. BW has changed from its release as well. There were balance patches for BW as well. Don't forget that.
I truly believe that BW would have so much more to offer and I wouldn't want the Brood War boomers to be so anti-change in BW. To make the game as great as it can be, and to offer much more to enjoy by viewing, pondering and by playing the game, is all I want to do. Even chess has evolved over time, it has gotten new rules I think even centuries later. BW has changed from its release as well. There were balance patches for BW as well. Don't forget that.
I support some minor balance changes, i just don't have faith in Blizzard to implement them. And i don't see how guardians could be made viable, the main issue is irridate ripping them to shreds not guardians.
I truly believe that BW would have so much more to offer and I wouldn't want the Brood War boomers to be so anti-change in BW. To make the game as great as it can be, and to offer much more to enjoy by viewing, pondering and by playing the game, is all I want to do. Even chess has evolved over time, it has gotten new rules I think even centuries later. BW has changed from its release as well. There were balance patches for BW as well. Don't forget that.
I support some minor balance changes, i just don't have faith in Blizzard to implement them. And i don't see how guardians could be made viable, the main issue is irridate ripping them to shreds not guardians.
Yea I never said Blizzard should try to fix anything by themselves, rather only after the playerbase itself has reached a satisfactory consensus. Blizzard would only implement very specific solutions crafted by the players.
The idea in this case is to make the guardian essentially an anti-mech unit. The reason this role would be what I'm looking forward to is that It's a ridiculous idea that a high-tech Hive level unit is used to harrass mineral lines and kill the first fighting units that Terran is able to buy (marines), rather than Terran's own high-tech or high cost units. If the Terran goes mech and also manages to get a good amount of science vessels with his goliaths and tanks, then he prolly just should win, since that's a pretty costly collection of tech and units.
On March 03 2019 10:13 Jealous wrote: NVM pointless to argue.
If by that u mean I'm not serious, well I don't know how to create such a testmap where you could change damagetypes for example (I don't think you can edit that normally) and I'd still need people willing to try it.
On March 03 2019 10:25 ggsimida wrote: zelot going 2 hatch muta into 3hatch greater spire guardians against offrace larva. larva try to be cute and build goliaths to counter the guardians https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFwJeEyO0D8
Yea, like the others said vessel would be the counter. So even in this case it's kind of because larva didn't use vessels to deal with the guardians that he had such a hard time (although still doing pretty well.)
And I have no problem with that, my intention is just that guardians would be sort of the high tech unit of choice for zerg against mech. In that situation it's a bit different clearly since we never see people take goliaths head on (even in beneficial terrain) with guardians in a situation where the terran has built a proper mech army and both players are on a roughly equal footing because they're just not good at that for what they cost.
On March 03 2019 09:43 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: I support some minor balance changes, i just don't have faith in Blizzard to implement them. And i don't see how guardians could be made viable, the main issue is irridate ripping them to shreds not guardians.
Maybe make them move a bit faster so a fast-handed zerg could more effectively spread them out or somewhat mitigate the damage from the eraser?
To address your first point, its not that initial balance change that worries me, its the balance change to fix the unintended consequences of the initial balance change and how it snowballs into a SC2-like scenario where whoever is implementing balance changes is constantly forcing changes to the meta.
There's definitely a problem of imbalance in StarCraft, and I'd say there's also a problem of resistance to change within the StarCraft community. But giving anyone the green light to dictate how we play StarCraft--assuming that the community can--could leave StarCraft a lot more enjoyable.
While I, a mediocre player, struggle to replicate the 1-base PvZ strategies I see from Snow and Best, I would rather struggle to get good enough to pull them off rather than see multiple balance changes to keep a 2-basing protoss' chance of winning around 50% vs Z.
Obviously they're not going to actually buff the guardian. But I have to admit, I do love the games when the guardian actually gets used in a serious way. That one game from Shine in ASL is legendary.
why does every zerg player have such a hard on for guardians? it feels like they never work lol. people need to just accept that they're a highly situational unit and stop trying to build them whenever they go 2 hatch muta.
Unfortunately all Blizzard cares about is Korea, so as long as majority of Koreans don't want any balance changes, it just doesn't happen. So all the discussion here is pointless.
What balance changes do the people in this thread actually have in mind? It's just odd to see people in 2019 claiming we need balance changes when the game has been near perfectly balanced for most of its existence.
How about instead of talking about balance changes we try to get new maps"
You wanna see more guardians? Go practice. Go invent strategies that incorporate them. Thats what Eriador did with queens and he got people real fucking excited when he did it. NaDa and ghosts just a few weeks back, too.
Units like queens/guardians/ghosts/scouts/dark archons make the game exciting because they're situational and rare. Because they aren't mundane like zealots and zerglings.
I don't care if it ruins the balance of the game.
Most BW players care about the balance; ~0% of them give a shit about your wants.
EPT![[image loading]](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/047/536/562.png)
