EPTplz buff guardian :( - Page 4
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leveller
Sweden1840 Posts
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JonttuTonttu
81 Posts
as someone playing broodwar since 20+ years i have to say i rarely read something more wrong xD its really funny how new players always want changes xD a comment like "not care if it ruins the balance" alone makes it a joke comment I've been playing for 19 years? there wont be any change in broodwar and thats GOOD no one wants it, if something isnt balanced, you balance it by MAPS. I already answered that, see: Yea but the thing is that there is a limit to what those new maps can offer. What I'm trying to say is that: I want to push the limits of what kind of strategies, unit compositions and maps are worthwhile in a play to win situation and also in non-1v1 gametypes. and: Last, just to add... There has clearly been interest even from the point of the knife's edge-top of the very top of players from among the BW pros in stats changes into the game by Flash. On his channel there's a video of him playing a custom map with tweaked unit stats for the scout (buff), the hydralisk (nerf iirc) and some other units iirc. So the korean pros are pretty open minded at least. As many people have argued there are actually many ways to use guardians. Not as a bread-and-butter lategame-unit, but also not just as a gimmick. Rather as a situational unit that you can mix in on a regular basis in low numbers in the lategame, or mass in certain situations that occur once every several games. Overall good post but to me an combat unit that's high tech is a gimmick unit if it isn't a central part of some counter or metagame in some situation eg. anti-mech, anti-latemech or maybe anti-mech in maps that have good terrain for them such as lots of chokes. I think one idea of the OP is just personal preference: That tier1 units should at some point lose effectiveness and be replaced by higher tier units. Surely this is a design choice but I personally prefer BW as the mechanically difficult tug of war between mostly standard units that we're used to, that sometimes gets "disturbed" by these rare situations with guardians/DAs/ghosts... It might be personal preference but it gives the game more variety, which means more replay-value for the game (so in other words, not the same old, same old.) I didn't say tier 1 units should lose effectiveness necessarily and DEFINITELY DIDN'T MEAN THAT CERTAIN UNITS SHOULD BE REPLACED OVERALL as the game progresses. Bio should ABSOLUTELY remain viable just like mech for example, just one more on some maps and the other on other maps. The thing to complain about going from vanilla to Brood War is actually not guardians, but mass hydralisk ZvT. Guardians were never good vs Zerg, and were never massed vs Protoss. Only before the irradiate buff, and when people were really bad, were they massed vs Terran. In vanilla, Just like today, given enough vessels, you stop massing guardians. Yes, guardians destroy mech in vanilla, but mech isn't viable anyway because of the lack of charon boosters and valkyries. Mech just dies to mutalisks. Your nostalgia for mass guardians comes from a time when the game's balance was broken, and / or people were very bad. Mass guardian was never a thing, except for when Terran was underpowered and had no chance vs Z or vs lategame carriers. Ok I have to say that I don't know much at all about the original SC's metagame. However what I DO know, is that like any other person with common sense, in the instance that mech IS used, in BW, Guardians fail vs them, because of said Charon boosters. I've never seen someone this sad about Guardians and I feel your pain, man. Good luck on your quest. Thank you. I'll try to continue shilling. If I was asked to make a balance patch for BW I would buff GHOSTS as a priority, then some thin surgical non-obvious buffs to DARK ARCHONS, QUEENS and SCOUTS. Which is a sentiment that I agree with and advocate for. I would just make the Guardians into the anti Terran mech unit and make the Queen be the specialist instead of the other way around as it is now pretty much. It baffles me how this thread reached page 3 already. Good job! Sure it's a pretty silent forum but I do admit like a third of the posts are mine so that helps haha. I'm not opposed to the idea of balance patch, but it would have to be microscopic changes. Its a moot point since the OP doesn't seem to care about balance. To use an analogy, each of the matchups in brood war is like a dish of food, each unit an ingredient. Therefore complaining that you can't use all ingredients at your disposal in the same dish is kinda weird. The meal is fine, you don't need to add guardians in just because you have emm. It was a bit of in the heat of the moment when I posted the OP, frustrated how one of my favourite unit is relegated into an obscure "Yea sure you can use it, but the unit is NEVER needed" role. This for a unit at the very end of the Zerg tech tree, can people not understand why I'm F*** upset?? I see each unit as an igredient and each matchup as a separate dish as well. Glad that we agree. So that may sound stupid but you can always make a custom map and then play it? And you can read the OP? I'll quote again for you: If by that u mean I'm not serious, well I don't know how to create such a testmap where you could change damagetypes for example (I don't think you can edit that normally) and I'd still need people willing to try it. and: That is what I have thought about. If in the future you can get big people on board and many people to play it, it could enter like a beta phase for say... 6 months, and then if it looks good be pushed into a new patch for BW. The problem obviously is that this takes several people more than just me as an amateur and a miscellaneous cast of casuals and other amateurs playtesting it for fun a few times over the course of a few months. Only pros could judge whether it'd work and fit in next to established meta. I am not a pro. Nor a millionaire so I can't sponsor korean pros to playtest the mod. Maybe some day though. | ||
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JonttuTonttu
81 Posts
On March 06 2019 03:40 leveller wrote: If you buff guardians... Scouts will have a use. Genious. That is also true, I know. Edit: Although... actually P is supposed to be able to kill em with storms anyways... and although the Guardians would be more effective vs P like everything else, they would also cost more. | ||
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JonttuTonttu
81 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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LUCKY_NOOB
Bulgaria1431 Posts
Good for weird timings and surprise attacks. Also great to show absolute macro superiority! | ||
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rockslave
Brazil318 Posts
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JoinTheRain
Bulgaria408 Posts
And yeah, Guardians, they look alright to me, not too good, not too bad, they have their utility here and there. Perfect for a distraction somewhere on the map, unsuitable for core of the army but that's alright. An army can't have too many cores anyway. Leave them be and enjoy the amazing gameplay that is shown to us daily. | ||
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Puosu
6985 Posts
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JonttuTonttu
81 Posts
But onto the topic... Oh jesus and people wonder why I call them a gimmick unit: Guardians are as strong as they should be. Good for weird timings and surprise attacks. Also great to show absolute macro superiority! & The game seems to be just perfect as it is. The three races are awesome and new maps bring out the creativity. I hope Blizzard never touches unit statistics and leaves them forever as they are now. And yeah, Guardians, they look alright to me, not too good, not too bad, they have their utility here and there. Perfect for a distraction somewhere on the map, unsuitable for core of the army but that's alright. An army can't have too many cores anyway. Leave them be and enjoy the amazing gameplay that is shown to us daily. My response: The idea in this case is to make the guardian essentially an anti-mech unit. The reason this role would be what I'm looking forward to is that It's a ridiculous idea that a high-tech Hive level unit is used to harrass mineral lines and kill the first fighting units that Terran is able to buy (marines), rather than Terran's own high-tech or high cost units. If the Terran goes mech and also manages to get a good amount of science vessels with his goliaths and tanks, then he prolly just should win, since that's a pretty costly collection of tech and units. & It was a bit of in the heat of the moment when I posted the OP, frustrated how one of my favourite unit is relegated into an obscure "Yea sure you can use it, but the unit is NEVER needed" role. This for a unit at the very end of the Zerg tech tree, can people not understand why I'm F*** upset?? I see each unit as an igredient and each matchup as a separate dish as well. Glad that we agree. Also to add, Like I mentioned already before, I'm not sure you people read through the OP but... I already said that there's a limit to what the maps can offer, and I want to push those limits further. Also, people could also take into account there's also people that don't play only 1v1 or any 1v1 at all but also team games, free for alls and island maps. Doesn't it matter what the game is like to the rest of the playerbase? Guardians are not even very interesting. You attack move. No interactions with other units, or dark swarm. The unit is way too slow to abuse terrain the way carriers do, apart from islands. So what? Not every unit has to have glitches that are exploited to do cool micro trix. Nor is this a moba or something either. Edit: Edited the OP. | ||
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Jealous
10146 Posts
On March 10 2019 03:31 JonttuTonttu wrote: Doesn't it matter what the game is like to the rest of the playerbase? No. | ||
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A.Alm
Sweden515 Posts
Guardians are slow units that don't have much micro potential. Why do you like them so much? I've never heard anyone else name their favorite unit as the Guardian... Anyways, they're used more than Scouts, Devours, Ghosts, Dark Archons and Infested terran. They're not that bad. If Terran or Protoss looses their anti-air (science vessels, corsairs), guardians are useful in low numbers close to mineral lines. They're used a decent amount at pro level (ASL & KSL) and even more at my level (1900 MMR) because science vessels and corsairs require lots of micro which makes them easy to loose. Maybe the problem lies within? I suggest you make a UMS map with buffed guardians and play against AI or someone with the same opinion on this matter (gl with that) | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On March 10 2019 01:35 rockslave wrote: Guardians are not even very interesting. You attack move. No interactions with other units, or dark swarm. The unit is way too slow to abuse terrain the way carriers do, apart from islands. To be fair, the AI is pretty stupid and if you don't pay attention guardians will voluntarily float into turret range for no reason and kill themselves. As someone who used to do mutalisk->guardian all-ins all the time, I've learned the hard way that you can't just a-move with guardians. | ||
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ArcadePlus
United States44 Posts
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
1) Resistance to change. In general people are. Especially true in a community like this. I think we can be honest and acknowledge that the general BW community is not particularly excited about change, especially gameplay related change. 2)Your Premise. This is the bigger part of it. Your premise is basically that a Tier3 unit like the Guardian should be a big ole boss boy that can take on other Tier2/3 from other races. From there, you lay out a fairly strong case for why the Guardian does not live up to that role. You have developed that part of the argument well. The part of the argument that you almost completely ignored, which is a little confusing, is why exactly Tier3 units should be a big boss counter to other high tech units. This is where you are getting resistance. Lots of people aren't sold on this idea, and you have made little defense of that premise. This is rather analgous to laying out a good and comphrensive argument for why pens are terrible for erasing, and suggesting that pens should be better for erasing....without layout out an argument for why pens SHOULD be easy to erase in the first place. It's like you ignored the important part of your argument and only included the very obvious part. 3) Interest/Fun to Play & Watch - The third point, perhaps less important than the second one but still relevant, is the enjoyment to the viewer and the player. The Guardian is a pretty simple unit. Add 3 range to it and it's a massively simple unit. Mass Guardians. A move. Fuck shit up. As a player, that doesn't sound very exciting. As a spectator that....also doesn't sound very exciting. It's just a move. So that's another part of your argument that's missing. How would Guardians with +3 range make the game more interesting either to watch or to play? If they wouldn't, then you need to argue and defend why that wouldn't matter. | ||
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Jealous
10146 Posts
On March 10 2019 07:43 L_Master wrote: JonttuTonttu. I think the main reason you're idea isn't really getting much support is for a few reaons. There's really only one main reason, and that's because every 50 APM pub-game only HunterzZ 3v3 FREE BEER player has some skewed and unique perspective on balance, unit interactions, gameplay, etc. Some of them are basically delusional, or at least so uninformed as to appear that way. What does this mean? These players should not have any say in how the game or the units are balanced, because scrubby suggestions could tip the balance at the top level (which is the only place where it truly matters). Also, that these players will never agree on one point anyway. If we went out and surveyed every active noob on Battle.net, I would expect to get a unique response from each one about what they think would improve the game. How would you appease all of them? How do you differentiate the merely myopic suggestions from the absolutely idiotic in any productive way? The answer is simple: you don't. You simply ignore them. The game is fine as is at the top level as is demonstrated by the variety of races represented in each top level tournament. Some whiny low level players who say that ZvT is boring and needs buffed Guardians to shake up the meta or whatever should be ignored. | ||
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Puosu
6985 Posts
furthermore zerg eggs should be able to cast dark swarm because remember i dont care about balance pls re-read my post i think ur confused if u think my opinion are bad, i edited it (twice) if u dont do this bw will die  | ||
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GunSlinger
614 Posts
Think about it. Firebats were already pretty good before medics were added to the game (you know 19 years ago) because they could Stim and then kill a lot of Broodlings, but at the cost of their health. That seems fair to me. But then Blizzard added Medics with broodwar and probably didn't even test FB + Medic against mass Broodling because once you get stim the broodlings just die so ez and the firebats get healed up and it is like Stim is a free spell! So now Broodling is not even a gimmick unit because FU**** FBS AND MEDIC ARE OP AND STUPID. Seriously Blizzard why would you even put Broodlings in the game if you don't want people to use them? Like wtf Bllizz? Oh, you want to do something diiiffferent? and build co0ol units like F****** BRODDLING? No, you can't do anything cool or be unique because of F********* FIREBATS and MEDICS AND STIM! It is really frustrating you know? I don't care if it ruins the balance of the game. Screw balance. I'm not asking for the world. I am not asking you to consider patching a crucial aspect of this game. Which is literally twenty years old, has been played competitively for almost as long, and hasn't had a balance patch for the better part of 18 years. I am not asking you to up-heave the very foundations of two decades of brilliant professional play, strategical maneuvering and decisive, long-lasting metagame shifts. I am not asking you to massively reconfigure the delicate strategical balance that has lasted in this 20 year old game. A game that is basically a professional sport in South Korea and remains loved by thousands, if not millions of people across the face of this planet. I just want my broodling. Like seriously, even something super cool and smart like making Defilers create Broodlings for free when burrowed, but then instead of two broodlings you only get one every 5 seconds. Or maybe make Queens cost 57 gas more, but instead of Parasite they start with Broodling and it only costs 50 energy. If we don't change things within the Broodwar community and start changing the unit stats then bw is gonna die guys, becuz after 20 years people are going to start to get bored. Mark my F****** words. | ||
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TwiggyWan
France329 Posts
At D level, make guardians, knock yourself out. I could make BCs in TvZ too because i float so much resources lol | ||
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Jealous
10146 Posts
On March 11 2019 04:31 TwiggyWan wrote: hydra/muta into guardians vs mech Like the VOD that was posted in this thread? Lol. | ||
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TwiggyWan
France329 Posts
edit : i saw the game, and yes that's what i mean. I'm sure 10 years ago nobody would have considered building 12 queens against terran | ||
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