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On September 12 2017 12:31 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 12:28 rauk wrote:
boxer is not the "best" player of all time. no one claims he was the highest skill because obviously the newest players are best because people get better all the time. he's the "greatest" of all time because he's had the most impact on the game Win rates. The worst pro gamer right now could be waaaaaay better than anyone from 2004, but their win rates would still suck. You can thank Boxer for getting you into SC, but you can't thank him for making you good at anything.
You realize that players like Stork, Sea, Bisu were playing BW back in 2005 right? That's when BoxeR finished 2nd in an OSL. Do you consider those guys bad players in today's game? You have to evaluate players based on their peers from the same era. Obviously the general skill level is gonna get better as time goes on.. that happens in every sport.
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On September 12 2017 12:32 Lorch wrote:
So please why don't you present your own list of like the top 10 terrans of all time?
I really can't see how Boxer/Oov/Nada/Fantasy/Flash/Xellos would not all be auto picks for such a list. You make it sound like only the current top players matter and anyone who came before them is worth nothing. Does Grrrs OSL mean nothing? Oov became pretty irrelevant once his style got figured out. You could break him down to a guy who was only good at making lots of units and attack moving them across the map like you do with boxer.
Are you honestly trying to convince us that Midas should be ranked higher than Boxer?
Thanks for asking.
1. Flash
2. Fantasy
3. Oov (second in my heart)
4. Nada
5. Sea
5. Midas
6. Xellos
7. Innovation
8. Leta
9. Hiya
10. Androide (my "boxer pick") or Last
I could see boxer being 8-10. Cheese is strong. I "dislike" how no one ever mentions Androide, though. When I played, he was the only non Korean Terran winning games vs Koreans. One of the best non Koreans ever, yet... no one even wants to remember he played. That was my non Korean inspiration.
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On September 12 2017 12:52 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 12:32 Lorch wrote:
So please why don't you present your own list of like the top 10 terrans of all time?
I really can't see how Boxer/Oov/Nada/Fantasy/Flash/Xellos would not all be auto picks for such a list. You make it sound like only the current top players matter and anyone who came before them is worth nothing. Does Grrrs OSL mean nothing? Oov became pretty irrelevant once his style got figured out. You could break him down to a guy who was only good at making lots of units and attack moving them across the map like you do with boxer.
Are you honestly trying to convince us that Midas should be ranked higher than Boxer? Thanks for asking. 1. Flash 2. Fantasy 3. Oov (second in my heart) 4. Nada 5. Sea 5. Midas 6. Xellos 7. Innovation 8. Leta 9. Last 10. Androide (my "boxer pick") I could see boxer being 8-10. Cheese is strong. I "dislike" how no one ever mentions Androide, though. When I played, he was the only non Korean Terran winning games vs Koreans. One of the best non Koreans ever, yet... no one even wants to remember he played. That was my non Korean inspiration.
Going by your own rules, Leta should be #3 on that list by default. His 2008-2010 skill level was much higher than oov's in 2004-2006.
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On September 12 2017 12:52 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 12:32 Lorch wrote:
So please why don't you present your own list of like the top 10 terrans of all time?
I really can't see how Boxer/Oov/Nada/Fantasy/Flash/Xellos would not all be auto picks for such a list. You make it sound like only the current top players matter and anyone who came before them is worth nothing. Does Grrrs OSL mean nothing? Oov became pretty irrelevant once his style got figured out. You could break him down to a guy who was only good at making lots of units and attack moving them across the map like you do with boxer.
Are you honestly trying to convince us that Midas should be ranked higher than Boxer? Thanks for asking. 1. Flash 2. Fantasy 3. Oov (second in my heart) 4. Nada 5. Sea 5. Midas 6. Xellos 7. Innovation 8. Leta 9. Last 10. Androide (my "boxer pick") I could see boxer being 8-10. Cheese is strong. I "dislike" how no one ever mentions Androide, though. When I played, he was the only non Korean Terran winning games vs Koreans. One of the best non Koreans ever, yet... no one even wants to remember he played. That was my non Korean inspiration.
oov should be 10 at best on your list and leta should be 3rd after fantasy cuz of his PL skill. nada wasn't as good as bogus or last by 2010 so
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On September 12 2017 13:18 city42 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 12:52 playa wrote:On September 12 2017 12:32 Lorch wrote:
So please why don't you present your own list of like the top 10 terrans of all time?
I really can't see how Boxer/Oov/Nada/Fantasy/Flash/Xellos would not all be auto picks for such a list. You make it sound like only the current top players matter and anyone who came before them is worth nothing. Does Grrrs OSL mean nothing? Oov became pretty irrelevant once his style got figured out. You could break him down to a guy who was only good at making lots of units and attack moving them across the map like you do with boxer.
Are you honestly trying to convince us that Midas should be ranked higher than Boxer? Thanks for asking. 1. Flash 2. Fantasy 3. Oov (second in my heart) 4. Nada 5. Sea 5. Midas 6. Xellos 7. Innovation 8. Leta 9. Last 10. Androide (my "boxer pick") I could see boxer being 8-10. Cheese is strong. I "dislike" how no one ever mentions Androide, though. When I played, he was the only non Korean Terran winning games vs Koreans. One of the best non Koreans ever, yet... no one even wants to remember he played. That was my non Korean inspiration. Going by your own rules, Leta should be #3 on that list by default. His 2008-2010 skill level was much higher than oov's in 2004-2006.
There is nothing more telling about how impressive a Terran is than their T vs P numbers. Zerg is a pinata for good Terrans... and to think someone had to proxy rax them and send scvs every game? Come on. T vs P, on the other hand, takes a player who is all-around good and smart.
Leta is a 50% T vs P player, who is more in the mold of Boxer (won with wonky strats, mostly wraiths). I'm a big Xellos fan, too, but as mentioned, I have to give the edge to the better T vs P players.
And, you're putting words in my mouth by the way, as I made it pretty clear that win rates and ELO discrepancies are more important than overall skill. But, you have to keep in mind that no one had a clue how to play SC, early on. Dominating then was a lot more realistic than now.
Anyone who can watch that ELO rating video and come to the conclusion that Boxer is more substance than hype/myth is smoking something good.
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On September 12 2017 06:11 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 05:59 chocorush wrote:On September 12 2017 04:37 shall_burn wrote:
it's all about the t1 units. T>Z>P>T.
Marines&medics are better than hydras and lings, that's why zerg has to get t2-t3 units to fight terran t1 forces.
Hydras and lings are better than zealots and dragoons, protoss needs hts, reavers and even sairs for scouting
Zealots and dragoons are stronger than terran t1 (this one is tricky though, but non-the-less). The bulk of protoss army is zeal goon, and to fight that terran needs factory units.
See, it's all about the initial t1 units. Zealot+dragoon isn't really the reason why terrans mech against protoss. This guy probably said verbatum what tinyland said in his "meta" video. What he forgot to say was that reavers and storm make short work of mnm which is why terran mechs to avoid that
Nah, this thought just came to my head lately by itself, and I was seeking for a place to share it ^^
The second point is legit, though
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So in a list about the greatest of all time where one would consider tournament results, impact on the meta, proleague performance, contributions to the scene etc. your only measurement is ELO (which as someone else mentioned is super flawed as records from the first couple of years of BW are pretty bad) and your personal preference for macro play?
Your terran list is hilarious enough, please do us a favour and post top 10s for zerg and protoss as well.
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On September 12 2017 13:30 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 13:18 city42 wrote:On September 12 2017 12:52 playa wrote:On September 12 2017 12:32 Lorch wrote:
So please why don't you present your own list of like the top 10 terrans of all time?
I really can't see how Boxer/Oov/Nada/Fantasy/Flash/Xellos would not all be auto picks for such a list. You make it sound like only the current top players matter and anyone who came before them is worth nothing. Does Grrrs OSL mean nothing? Oov became pretty irrelevant once his style got figured out. You could break him down to a guy who was only good at making lots of units and attack moving them across the map like you do with boxer.
Are you honestly trying to convince us that Midas should be ranked higher than Boxer? Thanks for asking. 1. Flash 2. Fantasy 3. Oov (second in my heart) 4. Nada 5. Sea 5. Midas 6. Xellos 7. Innovation 8. Leta 9. Last 10. Androide (my "boxer pick") I could see boxer being 8-10. Cheese is strong. I "dislike" how no one ever mentions Androide, though. When I played, he was the only non Korean Terran winning games vs Koreans. One of the best non Koreans ever, yet... no one even wants to remember he played. That was my non Korean inspiration. Going by your own rules, Leta should be #3 on that list by default. His 2008-2010 skill level was much higher than oov's in 2004-2006. There is nothing more telling about how impressive a Terran is than their T vs P numbers.
According to whom? And does this stay true for PvZ and ZvT? Can't wait for Yellow[ArnC] to be be put above July!
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On September 12 2017 13:49 Lorch wrote:
So in a list about the greatest of all time where one would consider tournament results, impact on the meta, proleague performance, contributions to the scene etc. your only measurement is ELO (which as someone else mentioned is super flawed as records from the first couple of years of BW are pretty bad) and your personal preference for macro play?
Your terran list is hilarious enough, please do us a favour and post top 10s for zerg and protoss as well.
I followed Terran. If I made a list of another race, I'd probably replicate you guys and say some ridiculous stuff like Reach is the best Protoss ever cause he is "manly." He won the first tournament I ever saw. He's the reason this game still exists. You know, crazy stuff like that.
"According to whom?"
Me. And anyone who has played Terran should feel the same. Hiya is pretty much the only non super elite Terran to manage respectable numbers vs Toss. If we were to just worship good T vs Z, let's put Forgg in the top 3. After all, he won a star league, too.
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On September 12 2017 13:49 Lorch wrote:
So in a list about the greatest of all time where one would consider tournament results, impact on the meta, proleague performance, contributions to the scene etc. your only measurement is ELO (which as someone else mentioned is super flawed as records from the first couple of years of BW are pretty bad) and your personal preference for macro play?
Your terran list is hilarious enough, please do us a favour and post top 10s for zerg and protoss as well.
You've proved your point. The guy can't even stay true to his own flawed logic, as BoGus' all-time peak ELO versus protoss, coincidently his only truly noteworthy match-up, is lacking even compared to BoxeR's all-time peak ELO versus protoss.
What is it with terran players who can't execute proper bionic plays to save his mother's life, thinking that pumping mass units off multiple factories after copying a professional player's build, is somehow all that matters in this world? I get that these professionals played a vital role in boosting an amateur player's ego about his own Brood War skills, but seriously we don't need to milk several pages worth of pure garbage just for the hell of it.
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On September 12 2017 14:03 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 13:49 Lorch wrote:
So in a list about the greatest of all time where one would consider tournament results, impact on the meta, proleague performance, contributions to the scene etc. your only measurement is ELO (which as someone else mentioned is super flawed as records from the first couple of years of BW are pretty bad) and your personal preference for macro play?
Your terran list is hilarious enough, please do us a favour and post top 10s for zerg and protoss as well. You've proved your point. The guy can't even stay true to his own flawed logic, as BoGus' all-time peak ELO versus protoss, coincidently his only truly noteworthy match-up, is lacking even compared to BoxeR's all-time peak ELO versus protoss. What is it with terran players who can't execute proper bionic plays to save his mother's life, thinking that pumping mass units off multiple factories after copying a professional player's build, is somehow all that matters in this world? I get that these professionals played a vital role in boosting an amateur player's ego about his own Brood War skills, but seriously we don't need to milk several pages worth of pure garbage just for the hell of it.
At least maxblack knows he has people who are ready to crown him the best SC 2 player. I saw him win a game with a 3 gate all-in once. Oh, it was genius. No one had ever done it. That's awesome. Keep telling the story of how awesome it is for the rest of eternity.
All of his plays were so awesome. Let's relive the hype: www.youtube.com Remember kids, it's smart to cheese people who are better than you. If you have enough flair, you can even convince people that you're better. After all, you won.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On September 12 2017 13:56 playa wrote:
"According to whom?"
Me. And anyone who has played Terran should feel the same. Hiya is pretty much the only non super elite Terran to manage respectable numbers vs Toss. If we were to just worship good T vs Z, let's put Forgg in the top 3. After all, he won a star league, too.
Sorry, who mentioned worshiping good TvZ? Every matchup is important. TvP isn't the measuring stick of terran ability just because you say so.
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On September 12 2017 14:06 playa wrote:
Remember kids, it's smart to cheese people who are better than you. If you have enough flair, you can even convince people that you're better. After all, you won.
It's almost like you want to be seen as someone who's ahead of the curve in your outlook when really you're just coming across as someone who maybe just lost some ladder games in less than ideal ways. That or BoxeR's trash and everyone but you is stupid... yeah that must be it.
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On September 11 2017 15:52 Letmelose wrote:
I will talk only about achievements, the only metric that can be vaguely compared between players from different eras. I will discuss the results of legendary players in individual leagues that had continuous presence across all eras (OGN StarLeague/KPGA Tournament/MSL). KPGA Tournaments started in 2002, so people like BoxeR will be shafted slightly, and MSL got cancelled earlier than the OGN StarLeague, so people who were doing well towards the end of professional Brood War such as FanTaSy will be shafted slightly also.
If there is a tie, I will take into account their other placements to break the tie.
Most championships:
1) NaDa: 6
2) Flash: 6
3) Jaedong: 5
4) iloveoov: 5
5) sAviOr: 4
6) BoxeR: 3
7) July: 3
8) Bisu: 3
9) Nal_rA: 2
10) JangBi: 2
4 terran players, 3 zerg players, and 3 protoss players.
Most number of finals:
1. NaDa: 10
2. Jaedong: 9
3. Flash: 8
4. BoxeR: 7
5. sAviOr: 6
6. iloveoov: 5
7. July: 5
8. Stork: 5
9. FanTaSy: 5
10. Bisu: 4
5 terran players, 3 zerg players, and 2 protoss players.
Most number of semi-finals:
1. Jaedong: 12
2. NaDa: 11
3. Flash: 11
4. YellOw: 10
5. iloveoov: 9
6. BoxeR: 9
7. Nal_rA: 8
8. Stork: 8
9. ChoJJa: 8
10. sAviOr: 7
4 terran players, 4 zerg players, and 3 protoss players.
Most number of quarter-finals:
1. NaDa: 18
2. Flash: 16
3. BoxeR: 16
4. Jaedong: 14
5. YellOw: 14
6. XellOs: 13
7. iloveoov: 12
8. Stork: 12
9. Reach: 12
10. ChoJJa: 12
5 terran players, 3 zerg players, and 2 protoss players.
Most number of round of sixteen appearances:
1. NaDa: 28
2. Stork: 24
3. BoxeR: 23
4. Flash: 21
5. YellOw: 21
6. XellOs: 20
7. July: 19
8. Jaedong: 18
9. Reach: 18
10. iloveoov: 17
5 terran players, 3 zerg players, and 2 protoss players.
As you can see, terran players are always dominating the all-time lists no matter which way you cut it. It's always in the same order, terran on top, and protoss at the bottom.
However, the number one player in terms of achievements is not clear cut for the protoss race as it is for the other two races:
NaDa is literally the top placed terran player for every single bracket stage.
Jaedong is the top placed zerg player for every single bracket stage apart from the number of round of sixteen appearances.
Stork is the top placed protoss player for every single bracket stage apart from the number of championships won.
Bisu is probably the top placed protoss player overall, but fails to even make the top ten list on most of the lists due to his inconsistency.
Protoss is the least successful race in the major individual leagues by almost any metric, but to make matters worse, there are no towering figureheads for the protoss race in terms of individual league achievements. Bisu simply does not dominate the other protoss legends such as Stork, Nal_rA and Reach apart from being more clutch in the finals. Remember, all it takes is a goon upgrade from Stork in game five, and we may have Stork as the most accomplished protoss player of all time in the major individual leagues.
I personally think that both Flash and Jaedong performed almost as well as they possibly could with their respective races, with the given time frame. Bisu may have matched them in terms of ability, but was far from being as complete as either of them in terms of being a competitor, and only matched his rivals when he felt like it. I don't think it's fair to categorize him on the same level of Flash, or Jaedong, when Bisu was closer to his contemporaries in terms of achievements, even if he had spikes of performances where he looked to be on the level of Flash, and Jaedong, even with his racial disadvantage.
Remember that after iloveoov, only two terran players reached multiple finals (Flash, and FanTaSy), and only one zerg player managed to reach multiple finals after sAviOr (Jaedong), whereas in the same era, three protoss players reached multiple finals (Bisu, Stork, and JangBi).
Even in the ProLeague seasons after Flash's debut, there were plenty of high performing protoss players:
1. Flash: 233-82 (74.0%)
2. Jaedong: 223-101 (68.8%)
3. Bisu: 185-80 (69.8%)
4. Stork: 169-99 (63.1%)
5. Sea: 152-100 (60.3%)
6. Leta: 150-95 (61.2%)
7. Light: 145-108 (57.3%)
8. Kal: 144-124 (53.7%)
9. free: 138-111 (55.4%)
10. FanTaSy: 144-89 (61.8%)
5 terran players, 4 protoss players, and a single zerg player.
Both Flash and Jaedong were further ahead of their contemporaries than Bisu was ahead of his, even if we exclude Stork as an anomaly.
if u compare a top10 and say 4 terran 3 protoss 3 zerg, but the protoss are constantly the last places in the top10 its even less worth
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
I do like how even though nobody (not zerg or protoss) at the highest level where game balance actually make a difference are calling tesagi minus one translated joke video where the translator missed all the jokes.
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On September 12 2017 16:49 Qikz wrote:
I do like how even though nobody (not zerg or protoss) at the highest level where game balance actually make a difference are calling tesagi minus one translated joke video where the translator missed all the jokes.
I don't think you should make blanket statements like that when you don't have a full grasp of the Korean language.
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Assuming BW is indeed tesagi, what now?
Are there any indications Blizzard will patch game that hasn't seen any changes for at least a decade?
Are there big enough BW tournaments in the horizon that would necessitate such patch?
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On September 12 2017 16:57 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 16:49 Qikz wrote:
I do like how even though nobody (not zerg or protoss) at the highest level where game balance actually make a difference are calling tesagi minus one translated joke video where the translator missed all the jokes. I don't think you should make blanket statements like that when you don't have a full grasp of the Korean language.
im korean and these progamers are clearly joking. You seem to be not aware of korean afreeca scene as well. Mind you that there was taesagi chants all over chat... cuz of flash and it was ridiculous for awhile. These pros responded to that in return sarcastically..
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On September 12 2017 18:01 Shinokuki wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 16:57 Letmelose wrote:On September 12 2017 16:49 Qikz wrote:
I do like how even though nobody (not zerg or protoss) at the highest level where game balance actually make a difference are calling tesagi minus one translated joke video where the translator missed all the jokes. I don't think you should make blanket statements like that when you don't have a full grasp of the Korean language. im korean and these progamers are clearly joking. You seem to be not aware of korean afreeca scene as well. Mind you that there was taesagi chants all over chat... cuz of flash and it was ridiculous for awhile. These pros responded to that in return sarcastically..
Jesus Christ, then pay a little more attention to the scene, there's so much unrecorded shit I can't list them all, but educate yourself before trying to educate me after watching that one video.
http://www.bizhankook.com/bk/article/10638
https://ppt21.com/pb/pb.php?id=humor&no=302635&page=279
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On September 12 2017 11:24 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 05:23 tanngard wrote:On September 12 2017 01:54 playa wrote:
Boxer is the most overrated player ever. I hate how early success in a game cements you as an all time great. May as well say Huk is the best SC 2 player ever. I'd even put Midas above Boxer. But, then again, I can't think of many Terrans I wouldn't put ahead of Boxer.
Guy belongs on an honorary list. Pioneers of cheese or something. I think Oov is the second best Terran, by far, but I can see how it can go either way. Protoss sucks cause only one person has ever been able to play P vs Z. Hard to win things when you have to dodge a matchup. Few get that lucky in brackets. How is reaching OSL finals in 2004 and 2005 "early success"? How is innovationg and revolutionising tactical play and micro lead to "pioneer of cheese"? "I hate how early success in a game cements you as an all time great." Should we not honour and respect the people that laid important stepping stones for everyone else to take advantage of? Do you think it was easy to cut through the jungle of early BW and find a successful path to victory? To be an original thinker and find solutions in the chaos? A guy posted after you, saying Boxer should be number 1 or 2, overall. What I know I can say... is he did absolutely nothing since I started playing the game. All he did was ruin games. Omg, there would be so much hype going into every single boxer game. And what would he do? Oh, he would try to proxy rax Oov and everyone else. Casuals love this guy, but anyone who actually appreciates good SC probably hates this guy. The guy couldn't even make an A-team on any team, once people figured out how to stop all-ins. He had zero macro and his games were pathetic. So sick of early success trumping everything. Flash could dominate for the next 20 years straight and someone would say, hey how about that one guy who won a championship while no one knew what APM was. How bout that guy. Man he was the best ever. Give me a break. So insulting to everyone that plays Terran. No one even remembers Midas, and Boxer could only dream of being that good... I don't know how these guys don't smack talk him. I just did a quick tally of the last 2 pages of his TLPD stats. 30-50 his last 80 games. Overall, he lives off T vs Z and has a sub 50% in T vs P (hard matchup, though). I'd love to know his proxy rax stats. Give maxblack a time machine and he might be the next BW Bonjwa.
Here is the thing about discussions. I brought you 3 spesific challenges related to spesific points you wrote about. What you need to do is deal with those 3 challenges and not just jump on a tirade of statements and opinions - most of them ignorant and disrespectful as Letmelose and plenty of others have thoroughly shown you. We can all argue to the sun goes down and get NOWHERE if we dont deal with eachother arguments in a methodical manner. There are so many problems with what you wrote in your response to me, but you are not getting away from you responsibilites in a discussion by offering strawmens and diverging our attention.
I have actually watched all OSL games up until 2005, just to study and relive its history. You keep on talking about "king of cheese" and it just goes to show you dont know what you are talking about. Boxer is the king of micro and tactical play. His zerg opponents coud have the double amount of bases (and more), yet Boxer through sheer micro and grit, could use the small forces he had in incredible effective and sensational ways to make up for his relative small economy. Nothing about that has anything to do with cheese or all-ins like you keep on repeating. Go watch all the games from the old osl tournaments to get a more correct perspective. You can find them here https://www.youtube.com/user/TVOngamenet/playlists?shelf_id=0&sort=dd&view=1
You also need to understand the difference between the greatest and the best players of all time.
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EPT
