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On September 13 2017 05:06 ProMeTheus112 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2017 04:38 Ancestral wrote:On September 11 2017 20:42 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
I think : medics heal too fast, tanks cost too little supply, vultures kill workers too quickly. Could make vultures deal.. 18 dmg? or 16? (3 hits to lings) Or increase hp of workers a little?^^ wouldnt be bad imo. DTs probably still should kill workers in one hit.. however having no notification is "sagi" ^^ so maybe not^^ actually I think they don't need to kill workers in one hit. They only feel weak in midgame, when detected, but what can you do. Some more hp or shield?
also I think : hydras are too weak vs M&M (because of medics) and perhaps against mutalisks. I think Mutalisks should probably be medium size.
I think reavers also kill workers too quickly (and marines), I would say reduce their aoe size and def make the scarab more reliable would be good imo.. too random. If I would say anything else is too strong with P, maybe storm damage is too fast, idk. Make it last longer and same dmg or smtg. It kills workers too quickly too, and M&M.
Qikz : risking a balance patch : I don't know. I think the game can be improved for sure, but of course doing it right is hard and there is a risk of not quite doing it right. Since its a creative thing there are many ways to do it, so it's hard to agree. It requires the designers to have strong understanding and to make strong coherent choices that really improve the game as a whole. Also problem of replays that stop working, which can be fixed if the game will load stuff from previous patch after recognizing replay version.
also I think Battlecruiser could use a dmg increase.. guardians and devourers smtg? more hp for guardians? a little more dmg for devourers? and scouts cheaper at least or more ground dmg or.. free sight upgrade..
I think swarm is too invincible, I would say maybe change it to increase armor of units or smtg. I'm only on page three so I have yet to see where this discussion has led, but dude, changing this much at once would be an absolute complete disaster. thanks for your encouraging remark but you're not even saying why so when I read it, it only feels bad and that's all... I put some thought into this, I'm not saying everything I suggest is great but make an effort at least yo.
I'm really not sure if you're serious. Some people are serious in this thread, and some obviously aren't.
Why would you change ten things at once? That violates every principle of game design. If you change so many things, you can't tell what the effect of each individual one is, because the entire milieu is different.
I'm not saying anything about any particular change you suggested, because it's moot since so many at once after a fairly stable 15 years would be insane, with many top players around having played the same game for 10+ years at this point, or close to 20 for some who still play but aren't at the top (e.g. Reach)
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well I didn't really suggest they all be changed at once so whatever then, just suggestions put up for discussion...
not that I don't think some things are better changed together than by themselves...
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On September 13 2017 05:21 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
well I didn't really suggest they all be changed at once so whatever then, just suggestions put up for discussion...
not that I don't think some things are better changed together than by themselves...
I guess I will address the changes themselves - it seems you just want to make everything strong weaker. It's okay that there are counters and strong units in certain situations. Not everything has to be exactly equally powerful in all situations. If that were the case, there would be no strategy.
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I love my man Garim, but man, how you gonna have an all time great toss list without Kingdom.
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The last OSL champion is Jangbi, he won it back to back beating Fantasy who 3-0ed Flash in the last OSL semi-final.
Players in 2012 were much better than they are now in my opinion, but Tesagi was not a thing. I'm kinda sad that we never got the chance to see what Jangbi and Protosses in general could've achieve had BW pro-scene continued.
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On September 13 2017 06:16 SuperJongMan wrote:
I love my man Garim, but man, how you gonna have an all time great toss list without Kingdom.
"The lower end people on my list are more of an honorable mention more than anything, a lot of those players are interchangeable."
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1) IntotheRainbow 2) Kingdom 3) Junitoss 4) Bisu 5) Movie 6) Fisheye... You got it all wrong broski.
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On September 13 2017 05:52 Ancestral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2017 05:21 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
well I didn't really suggest they all be changed at once so whatever then, just suggestions put up for discussion...
not that I don't think some things are better changed together than by themselves... I guess I will address the changes themselves - it seems you just want to make everything strong weaker. It's okay that there are counters and strong units in certain situations. Not everything has to be exactly equally powerful in all situations. If that were the case, there would be no strategy.
I agree with that, however when the strong stuff is too strong, it eliminates room for other stuff to be useful thus decreasing the strategy potential. Also you will find that, things won't all be equally powerful in all situations if they are not the same. Their different characteristics mean they will generate pros and cons by nature. Therefore if the balance is very good, more potential unfolds.
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On September 13 2017 05:09 Cryoc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2017 01:26 _Animus_ wrote:On September 13 2017 01:02 Qikz wrote:Give me a unit that autorecharges plasma shield and im fine. You mean a shield battery? That's a building! It needs to grow some legs then and autorecharge my army :D As i think more on the balance subject it appears in my mind that the protoss race just became uneficient as the years passed, because players learned how to counter most of the things in the protoss arsenal. While making these unefecient stuff are at high price to build, leaving you without options if fails. Im having in mind shuttle/reaver harass. I cant recall much successful usage of that in the last 1-2 years, most of i remember is fail or just doing ok damage(corsair reaver completelly died in pvz). While when u dont succeed u are far behind or sometimes instant gg. What are the effective ways of harass in pvz, or pvt? Dark templars, high templars? It became a piece of cake for T and Z. Reavers and dark templars have their best usage in mirror matchup... Zerg can switch from unit to unit fast and easy, while Protoss race sluggish build transition many times lead to defeat, as toss doesnt have the terran defensive advantage. Air to air only unit play a main role in PvZ, cosidering how unefecient air to air unit is. Even if a protoss deal a massive damage with corsairs that cannot possibly kill a Zerg. While terran have the choise of Marines with medic which can insta kill zerg if hes not top notch in sunken timing and muta micro, goliaths, valkyres or wraiths. Can a toss invest in base defense efectively against mutas? No, canons are huge and cost 150 minerals, while ter can build turrets for half of the price and build time and can place 2 to 4 turrets in a place where cannon spawns. With that in mind i can rely my conclusion to 2 main points: 1. Protoss units and tech are too costly for a balance. 2. Protoss is the most unflexible race of the three. I see cost reduction as a best solution. Dunno, what game you are playing, but in BW cannons occupy the same space as turrets and always deal full damage (and can hit ground!), while turrets deal only half damage vs mutas. So you actually have more firepower vs mutas as Protoss and don't need army supply to defend a base vs ground harrass, which makes you flexible.
My previous post was about progamers and highest level of play, i know toss is great at low/mid level, but i can say even at mid level pvz is hard.
Cannons were never efficient against mutas, thats why pros dont mass canon as response. Now lets make comparison between turret and canon in possible muta harrass.
Canon is 150 minerals, slower build time and lower rate of fire than a turret which cost 75 minerals and around half of the build time. I had mistaken that turret is smaller than a cannon, but also have in mind that best position if u dont want to manner your workers at natural is one pylon behind minerals which make less space for canons. The fact that in main base you usually have buildings around nexus is another reason you dont usually see canon spam like turrets in one or two straight lines. The third thing, its super easy to build X amount of emergency turrets at the last second, its cheap fast and all u have to do is to catch one worker at a time and hit BT. Ive been surviving so many times as a terran like that. At the same time you cannot do that as protoss not only because of the space, slower build rate but because many times as you scout mutas you will have to build a pylons first at the right spots which means your cannons will be too late.
The situation when muta is in your base - its way easier for terran to hold mutas with turrets, u can repair and even if muta stack kills one or two of your turrets by that time other 2 are finished, as a protoss u pray your canons will last another volley for your next to finish building. Infact you need army supply and also tech in air to air units just for countering the mutas otherwise you just die... I dont rember seeing progamer defending mutas with canons in recent bw era.
As in that situation Terran have Marines - a ranged units that shoot ground and air and with stim are way faster than protoss ground army, can both attack and retreat efectively and are great against anything before lurker tech in standart tvz.
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You do realise that you are supposed to open corsair to deal with mutas, right?
The only comparable thing terran has is wraiths, and I can't remember anyone besides Leta who really put that into effect in competitive play. Toss uses cannons to kill scourge and corsairs to deal with mutas. Meanwhile terran uses marines + turrets to keep mutas at bay and eventually vessels to end the threat.
You make it sound like everything should be the same in a game with three distinct races. Of course protoss has a different interaction with zerg than terran. In the natural balance of starcraft of P>T>Z>P you are supposed to have a harder time with PvZ. And you said it yourself that players like Bisu can dominate Zerg just fine, and imo as long as it's possible for someone to do it there is no issue. If you are struggling at anything on the mid level it's probably because you suck at macro and/or control, not because the game is broken.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On September 13 2017 09:25 Lorch wrote:
You do realise that you are supposed to open corsair to deal with mutas, right?
The only comparable thing terran has is wraiths, and I can't remember anyone besides Leta who really put that into effect in competitive play. Toss uses cannons to kill scourge and corsairs to deal with mutas. Meanwhile terran uses marines + turrets to keep mutas at bay and eventually vessels to end the threat.
You make it sound like everything should be the same in a game with three distinct races. Of course protoss has a different interaction with zerg than terran. In the natural balance of starcraft of P>T>Z>P you are supposed to have a harder time with PvZ. And you said it yourself that players like Bisu can dominate Zerg just fine, and imo as long as it's possible for someone to do it there is no issue. If you are struggling at anything on the mid level it's probably because you suck at macro and/or control, not because the game is broken.
pretty much.
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I don't care much for balance discussion because who cares if a race is 1% better at its peak performance if most people don't play at peak performance. However there are some things with Protoss that can be changed that make me mad. Protoss has the 2 units with the worst AI in the game. Dragoon and reaver scarab. Reaver scarab being by far the worst AI of all time. And Protoss has the worst unit in the game the scout. Ghost is pretty crappy too but it cost way less so it's ok they suck.
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This discussion is pointless. I wont even argue with the shitty points made because not only is the premise flawed, (that there needs to be an equal representation of each race for the game to be balanced) but every discussion on this matter is useless unless you really trust Blizzard to balance the game, which I doubt anyone still in BW wants. After 7 years of dreadful balance patching of Blizzard in sc2, i would like them to stay away from this game gameplay.
Also if it were anyone else complaining about bw balance, you would have been roasted.
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On September 12 2017 18:26 someone on discord wrote:
People need to get over it.
The game has been out for 19 years, 19 fucking years!
Why talk about this shit now.
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Blizzard pls buff protoss! Where's David Kim when you need him????!!
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On September 13 2017 13:33 riotjune wrote:
Blizzard pls buff protoss! Where's David Kim when you need him????!!
Protoss Balance Changes
- Protoss Archons now retain all templar abilities, using shields as mana.
- All protoss buildings now function shield batteries.
- Shield regeneration rate reduced by 12,5%
- Shields can now be repaired by probes.
- Protoss Observers now have ‘Counterspell’ - Nullifying all spell effects in radius. On a cool down of 15 seconds. Beware! This includes friendly spells and effects!
- The Protoss Shield Battery now has a new researchable ability called “Where we are going, we don’t need, roads.” At a cost of 200/200. When cast in an area, with a radius similar to Scanner Sweep all non-Zealot Protoss ground units gain the ability to fly.
- Protoss Probe now has an attack range of 3, up from 1.
- Protoss Probe damage increased to 10, up from 5.
- Protoss Probe now has a new passive ability: “Demon Aura”. The effect is simply a visual clarification as this undocumented effect was already in the game.
- Removed shield drain cost from the Protoss Dark Archon’s Mind Control spell.
- Reduced Mind Control cost to 75, down from 150.
Terran Balance Changes
- Terran Vulture mineral cost is now 85 up from 75.
- Terran Vulture mineral cost is now 80 down from 85.
- Terran Vulture mineral cost is now 95 up from 80.
- Terran Vulture build time increased by 5, was 19.
- Terran Vulture build time decreased by 2, was 24.
- Terran Vulture build time increased by 7, was 22.
- Terran Vulture’s Spider Mine ability is now on a 15 second cool down.
- Spider mines now need to be constructed at the Machine Shop and individually loaded into vultures at a cost of 15 minerals.
- Spider mines can now be Mind Controlled.
- Terran Firebats now have 3 attacks, up from 2.
- Removed Terran Valkyrie from the game.
- Terran Siege Tanks have had their Stabilising Struts removed, they are now a 100/100 upgrade in the Machine Shop that requires the Armory to research.
- Terran Siege Tanks now roll back with every shot in Siege Mode until the Stabilising Struts are researched.
- Terran Bunker remains unchanged.
- Terran Supply depots can now lift off, losing their supply capacity while airborne.
- Flying units can no longer bypass airborne Terran buildings.
Zerg Balance Changes
- Zerg now has a new unit, the ‘Retconnolisk’. Only one Retconnolisk per Hatchery can be active.
- The Retconnolisk channels creep energy to construct Zerg buildings, much like the Terran SCV. Channeling drains minerals per second relative to the current HP of the building under construction.
- The Retconnolisk can be constructed at the Hatchery without using larvae and costs 100 minerals.
- Zerg Hatcheries have a new upgrade called “Enhanced Purgeglands” reducing the channeling costs of the Retconnolisk’s construction.
- Zerg Retconnolisk has a new ability: ‘Consume Minerals.” Allowing the Retconnolisk to consume a full patch of minerals instantly. These minerals are set aside in a separate ‘Building Bank’ that can only be used to construct buildings. The minerals are lost if the Retconnolisk is killed.
- The Retconnolisk has the same stats as a Zerg Drone except it can attack air with a concussive melee attack.
- Zerg Drones can no longer build structures.
- Increased Zerg Broodling duration by 10%
- Zerg Mutalisk’s Glaive Wurm second bounce now deals 4 damage, up from 3.
- Reduced Zerg Mutalisk’s HP by 5.
- Zerg Hydralisk no longer has a range air attack.
- Zerg Hydralisk Den now has a new evolution: “Hydras can’t look up.” for 100/100 will allow Hydralisks to shoot air.
- Zerg Ultralisks no longer give a shit, as a consequence of this change in attitude they no longer are affected by spells or unit collisions.
- Zerg Defilers now have to keep moving, otherwise they’ll take damage. This is based off of feedback that they kind of look like they’re struggling and squirming when they’re stationary. ‘It just feels right.’
This patch will be deployed on the Test Realm tomorrow, giving you a total of 2,5 days before this goes live anyway as we’re already working on the second iteration with our own testers.
In terms of player feedback, we will ignore exact every third post and implement every fifth suggestion regardless of relevance or lucidity.
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On September 13 2017 18:28 Greth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2017 13:33 riotjune wrote:
Blizzard pls buff protoss! Where's David Kim when you need him????!! - Terran Bunker remains unchanged.
I'm not buying this.
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On September 13 2017 18:51 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2017 18:28 Greth wrote:On September 13 2017 13:33 riotjune wrote:
Blizzard pls buff protoss! Where's David Kim when you need him????!! - Terran Bunker remains unchanged. I'm not buying this.
I had to make it clear at one point that this was satire.
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Japan11286 Posts
Kingdom is too underrated to make any foreigner all-time list
I wouldn't mind shield healing abilities from everything not comabt units xd
New ultralisk ability "I don't give a shit" I want this to be an actual ability.
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On September 13 2017 19:09 Greth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2017 18:51 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On September 13 2017 18:28 Greth wrote:On September 13 2017 13:33 riotjune wrote:
Blizzard pls buff protoss! Where's David Kim when you need him????!! - Terran Bunker remains unchanged. I'm not buying this. I had to make it clear at one point that this was satire.
Lovely post btw.
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EPT
