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Recently Tesagi has become a fun little meme in the BW scene but i thought it would be interesting if we could have a serious discussion about BW balance. I'll start us off by comparing the dominant players throughout the history of BW.
I'll try to present my case by comparing the bonjwas/high end players for each race (by posting my race rankings and my top 10 all time ranking). My rankings are obviously subjective, that said i think my list is fairly accurate (i factored in player accomplishments and peak skill level as a secondary parameter). My main goal is not to discuss whether or not X player should be ranked 4th instead of 5th, it's to show the amount of dominant players/bonjwas that each race has had throughout the history of the game.
Even tho players like BeSt and Soulkey were very high level players at their peak i decided to leave them off my list. The impact they left on the game (in terms of individual accomplishments) is negligible but they were both very good players nonetheless. ChoJJa also deserves a shoutout, some people might have him #6 instead of GoRush but again that's pretty irrelevant to my main argument. The lower end people on my list are more of an honorable mention more than anything, a lot of those players are interchangeable.
I based my rankings on player accomplishments but i also factored in individual skill levels. For example Bisu isn't your typical tier 1 bonjwa but i consider him one due to his skill level and overall body of work (3 MSL titles, overall winrate, performance in non premier/major tournaments such as IEF etc.).
ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_StarCraft_competition#Top_players_ranked_by_major_tournament_wins
Another detailed list with player accomplishments: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/526706-all-time-bw-player-rankings-a-balance-discussion#9
Personal race rankings:
Terran = 1) Flash 2) NaDa 3) iloveoov 4) BoxeR 5) FantaSy 6) XellOs
Zerg = 1) Jaedong 2) sAviOr 3) Julyzerg 4) YellOw 5) EffOrt 6) GoRush
Toss = 1) Bisu 2) Stork 3/4) Nal_rA/Jangbi 5/6) Reach/Garimto
I'm sure everyone can agree that the best player of each race is Flash, JD and Bisu. That said, if you look at their individual accomplishments it's clear that Bisu is way behind JD and Flash.
Now look at the 2nd best players for each race. You can argue that Stork and FantaSy (easy comparison to make because they were rivals) are pretty much in the same tier in terms of accomplishments/overall level of play (i'll give the edge to Stork but the gap isn't huge tho, FantaSy was peaking towards the end of the KeSPA era).. but FantaSy is ~the 5th best Terran player whereas Stork is easily the 2nd best Protoss. Of course Stork isn't comparable to players such as NaDa/iloveoov or sAviOr (and possibly July), all those guys left a huge mark on the game.
Now let's look at the 3rd best players for each race. We have iloveoov for Terran, sAviOr for Zerg (some might argue that July deserves to be #3 due to what happened with sAviOr) and Jangbi or Nal_rA for Protoss (again, debatable #3/#4 ranking for Toss). Jangbi and Nal_rA have had great careers but can anyone honestly say that they're comparable to July/sAviOr, iloveoov or BoxeR (in terms of the impact they've had on the game)? Nope.. and it really isn't close imo.
Now let's look at the top 10 greatest players of all time. This list is subjective (for example you can have Bisu at #3 and NaDa at #4, some people might even have iloveoov at #4 and Bisu at #5) but the point i want to get across is how little impact Protoss has made compared to the other races throughout the years.
Statistically Zerg hasn't fared too well either but their top 3 players were extremely dominant. sAviOr and July left their mark on the game, they were both bonjwas during their peak.
Top 10 all time rankings:
1) Flash 2) JD 3) NaDa 4) Bisu 5) iloveoov 6) sAviOr 7) BoxeR 8) July 9) Stork 10) FantaSy
So we have 5 Terrans, 3 Zergs and 2 Protoss'. Personally I consider the top 8 players to be bonjwas (which makes for 4 Terran bonjwas, 3 Zerg bonjwas and 1 Protoss bonjwa) because they each have 3 major titles and they were all extremely dominant players during their peak.
We can expand the discussion and talk about current gameplay balance (related to game mechanics) as well.
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Any meaningful discussion on this will require quite a bit more methodological explication, i.e. how do you determine that Boxer is greater than Fantasy? If it's accomplishments, why is that relevant to balance (of now) in any worthwhile way? Are you talking of racial balance of accomplishments as it/was during a certain period? Are you talking of balance as an ideal of sorts, something that is universal in all time periods of BW and is independent of the players? Fwiw. I think the latter is, if it exists at all, not in reach of our knowledge.
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On September 11 2017 14:56 Puosu wrote:
Any meaningful discussion on this will require quite a bit more methodological explication, i.e. how do you determine that Boxer is greater than Fantasy? If it's accomplishments, why is that relevant to balance (of now) in any worthwhile way? Are you talking of racial balance of accomplishments as it/was during a certain period? Are you talking of balance as an ideal of sorts, something that is universal in all time periods of BW and is independent of the players? Fwiw. I think the latter is, if it exists at all, not in reach of our knowledge.
BoxeR is ahead of FantaSy due to accomplishments, it's relevant to balance because of how dominant he was in his prime relative to his peers. Terran's have been dominant (BoxeR/NaDa/iloveoov/Flash) in almost every era except for when sAviOr and July had their runs. The rankings are to show the impact that each race and their players have had throughout the history of BW.
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How is the balance from old games played on old maps with a different meta relevant to the game's current balance? For example. if Boxer beat Yellow 50 times in a row with bunker rush, what does that tell us about TvZ being played now? I don't think it's meaningful at all. I agree with Puosu's points about subjective ranking and how accomplishments are related to balance as well.
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On September 11 2017 15:11 Sero wrote:
How is the balance from old games played on old maps with a different meta relevant to the game's current balance? For example. if Boxer beat Yellow 50 times in a row with bunker rush, what does that tell us about TvZ being played now? I don't think it's meaningful at all. I agree with Puosu's points about subjective ranking and how accomplishments are related to balance as well.
But there's an obvious trend throughout the past 20 years. We're comparing the top players of each era relative to their peers. That's why i compared Bisu to JD and Flash. The Bisu comparison and the lack of dominant protoss players throughout the history of the game is my main argument.
Why were Flash/NaDa/iloveoov so dominant during their prime relative to the top protoss players from different eras? Why wasn't Bisu, who's one of the greatest mechanical players of all time able to be as dominant as Flash or JD? Why is there no Protoss other than Bisu among the all time great BW players?
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I think it's because Protoss is the easy race, so most really skilled players will pick Terran and Zerg to challenge themselves.
Boxer could have won like 12 OSLs if he played Protoss, but he was like "yo this is too reasy, I'm going to play the massively hard race instead to give everyone else a chance" and then all these other high-skill players started doing the same with Terran and Zerg.
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On September 11 2017 15:04 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 14:56 Puosu wrote:
Any meaningful discussion on this will require quite a bit more methodological explication, i.e. how do you determine that Boxer is greater than Fantasy? If it's accomplishments, why is that relevant to balance (of now) in any worthwhile way? Are you talking of racial balance of accomplishments as it/was during a certain period? Are you talking of balance as an ideal of sorts, something that is universal in all time periods of BW and is independent of the players? Fwiw. I think the latter is, if it exists at all, not in reach of our knowledge. BoxeR is ahead of FantaSy due to accomplishments, it's relevant to balance because of how dominant he was in his prime relative to his peers. Terran's have been dominant (BoxeR/NaDa/iloveoov/Flash) in almost every era except for when sAviOr and July had their runs.
I think it'll be though to show that Boxer's accomplishments of the past have anything to tell about the balance of the now. If your method of comparison is accomplishments (which I, too, think is a fine way) then I fail to see how that has anything much to do with balance as a ideal "universal" variable. If it is not universal, then you cannot really say anything about 2017 balance based on results of the past. The game has changed because of temporal movement, and with it, balance.
Therefore I think that from the great terran legacy you can tell only that terrans have generally been greater players. I do not think that you can say anything about racial balance (again, as a "universal variable" as opposed to something strictly bound to a certain period in BW history and relevant players' individual cognitive differences, available knowledge etc.) here. This is because it is conceivable that, for example, someone had invented mutastacking at an earlier period in history and therefore changed the course in zergs' favor.
So I think you can make a meaningful discussion about something like "the balance of a 2009 OSL of metagame Y and maps Z." That is, the claim is to be timebound and the conception of balance has to depend on what we've empirically seen in play during that period. It is this conception of a timebound and non-universal conception of balance that I think is in reach, but then this has nothing to do with the balance of the now.
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I don't get exactly what are the criteria for your all time ranking, I guess there is no ambiguity when it comes to accomplishments since stats are official. Now for players that did impact the game on a gameplay level, regarding terran all players aside of Boxer are an extension of NaDa, same with sAviOr for zerg and I believe July is a bit overrated.
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I will talk only about achievements, the only metric that can be vaguely compared between players from different eras. I will discuss the results of legendary players in individual leagues that had continuous presence across all eras (OGN StarLeague/KPGA Tournament/MSL). KPGA Tournaments started in 2002, so people like BoxeR will be shafted slightly, and MSL got cancelled earlier than the OGN StarLeague, so people who were doing well towards the end of professional Brood War such as FanTaSy will be shafted slightly also.
If there is a tie, I will take into account their other placements to break the tie.
Most championships:
1) NaDa: 6
2) Flash: 6
3) Jaedong: 5
4) iloveoov: 5
5) sAviOr: 4
6) BoxeR: 3
7) July: 3
8) Bisu: 3
9) Nal_rA: 2
10) JangBi: 2
4 terran players, 3 zerg players, and 3 protoss players.
Most number of finals:
1. NaDa: 10
2. Jaedong: 9
3. Flash: 8
4. BoxeR: 7
5. sAviOr: 6
6. iloveoov: 5
7. July: 5
8. Stork: 5
9. FanTaSy: 5
10. Bisu: 4
5 terran players, 3 zerg players, and 2 protoss players.
Most number of semi-finals:
1. Jaedong: 12
2. NaDa: 11
3. Flash: 11
4. YellOw: 10
5. iloveoov: 9
6. BoxeR: 9
7. Nal_rA: 8
8. Stork: 8
9. ChoJJa: 8
10. sAviOr: 7
4 terran players, 4 zerg players, and 3 protoss players.
Most number of quarter-finals:
1. NaDa: 18
2. Flash: 16
3. BoxeR: 16
4. Jaedong: 14
5. YellOw: 14
6. XellOs: 13
7. iloveoov: 12
8. Stork: 12
9. Reach: 12
10. ChoJJa: 12
5 terran players, 3 zerg players, and 2 protoss players.
Most number of round of sixteen appearances:
1. NaDa: 28
2. Stork: 24
3. BoxeR: 23
4. Flash: 21
5. YellOw: 21
6. XellOs: 20
7. July: 19
8. Jaedong: 18
9. Reach: 18
10. iloveoov: 17
5 terran players, 3 zerg players, and 2 protoss players.
As you can see, terran players are always dominating the all-time lists no matter which way you cut it. It's always in the same order, terran on top, and protoss at the bottom.
However, the number one player in terms of achievements is not clear cut for the protoss race as it is for the other two races:
NaDa is literally the top placed terran player for every single bracket stage.
Jaedong is the top placed zerg player for every single bracket stage apart from the number of round of sixteen appearances.
Stork is the top placed protoss player for every single bracket stage apart from the number of championships won.
Bisu is probably the top placed protoss player overall, but fails to even make the top ten list on most of the lists due to his inconsistency.
Protoss is the least successful race in the major individual leagues by almost any metric, but to make matters worse, there are no towering figureheads for the protoss race in terms of individual league achievements. Bisu simply does not dominate the other protoss legends such as Stork, Nal_rA and Reach apart from being more clutch in the finals. Remember, all it takes is a goon upgrade from Stork in game five, and we may have Stork as the most accomplished protoss player of all time in the major individual leagues.
I personally think that both Flash and Jaedong performed almost as well as they possibly could with their respective races, with the given time frame. Bisu may have matched them in terms of ability, but was far from being as complete as either of them in terms of being a competitor, and only matched his rivals when he felt like it. I don't think it's fair to categorize him on the same level of Flash, or Jaedong, when Bisu was closer to his contemporaries in terms of achievements, even if he had spikes of performances where he looked to be on the level of Flash, and Jaedong, even with his racial disadvantage.
Remember that after iloveoov, only two terran players reached multiple finals (Flash, and FanTaSy), and only one zerg player managed to reach multiple finals after sAviOr (Jaedong), whereas in the same era, three protoss players reached multiple finals (Bisu, Stork, and JangBi).
Even in the ProLeague seasons after Flash's debut, there were plenty of high performing protoss players:
1. Flash: 233-82 (74.0%)
2. Jaedong: 223-101 (68.8%)
3. Bisu: 185-80 (69.8%)
4. Stork: 169-99 (63.1%)
5. Sea: 152-100 (60.3%)
6. Leta: 150-95 (61.2%)
7. Light: 145-108 (57.3%)
8. Kal: 144-124 (53.7%)
9. free: 138-111 (55.4%)
10. FanTaSy: 144-89 (61.8%)
5 terran players, 4 protoss players, and a single zerg player.
Both Flash and Jaedong were further ahead of their contemporaries than Bisu was ahead of his, even if we exclude Stork as an anomaly.
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On September 11 2017 15:52 Letmelose wrote:
I will talk only about achievements, the only metric that can be vaguely compared between players from different eras. I will discuss the results of legendary players in individual leagues that had continuous presence across all eras (OGN StarLeague/KPGA Tournament/MSL). KPGA Tournaments started in 2002, so people like BoxeR will be shafted slightly, and MSL got cancelled earlier than the OGN StarLeague, so people who were doing well towards the end of professional Brood War such as FanTaSy will be shafted slightly also.
If there is a tie, I will take into account their other placements to break the tie.
Most championships:
1) NaDa: 6
2) Flash: 6
3) Jaedong: 5
4) iloveoov: 5
5) sAviOr: 4
6) BoxeR: 3
7) July: 3
8) Bisu: 3
9) Nal_rA: 2
10) JangBi: 2
4 terran players, 3 zerg players, and 3 protoss players.
Most number of finals:
1. NaDa: 10
2. Jaedong: 9
3. Flash: 8
4. BoxeR: 7
5. sAviOr: 6
6. iloveoov: 5
7. July: 5
8. Stork: 5
9. FanTaSy: 5
10. Bisu: 4
5 terran players, 3 zerg players, and 2 protoss players.
Most number of semi-finals:
1. Jaedong: 12
2. NaDa: 11
3. Flash: 11
4. YellOw: 10
5. iloveoov: 9
6. BoxeR: 9
7. Nal_rA: 8
8. Stork: 8
9. ChoJJa: 8
10. sAviOr: 7
4 terran players, 4 zerg players, and 3 protoss players.
Most number of quarter-finals:
1. NaDa: 18
2. Flash: 16
3. BoxeR: 16
4. Jaedong: 14
5. YellOw: 14
6. XellOs: 13
7. iloveoov: 12
8. Stork: 12
9. Reach: 12
10. ChoJJa: 12
5 terran players, 3 zerg players, and 2 protoss players.
Most number of round of sixteen appearances:
1. NaDa: 28
2. Stork: 24
3. BoxeR: 23
4. Flash: 21
5. YellOw: 21
6. XellOs: 20
7. July: 19
8. Jaedong: 18
9. Reach: 18
10. iloveoov: 17
5 terran players, 3 zerg players, and 2 protoss players.
As you can see, terran players are always dominating the all-time lists no matter which way you cut it. It's always in the same order, terran on top, and protoss at the bottom.
However, the number one player in terms of achievements is not clear cut for the protoss race as it is for the other two races:
NaDa is literally the top placed terran player for every single bracket stage.
Jaedong is the top placed zerg player for every single bracket stage apart from the number of round of sixteen appearances.
Stork is the top placed protoss player for every single bracket stage apart from the number of championships won.
Bisu is probably the top placed protoss player overall, but fails to even make the top ten list on most of the lists due to his inconsistency.
Protoss is the least successful race in the major individual leagues by almost any metric, but to make matters worse, there are no towering figureheads for the protoss race in terms of individual league achievements. Bisu simply does not dominate the other protoss legends such as Stork, Nal_rA and Reach apart from being more clutch in the finals. Remember, all it takes is a goon upgrade from Stork in game five, and we may have Stork as the most accomplished protoss player of all time in the major individual leagues.
Those are the kind of stats we need and of course NaDa comes on top.
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^ Now look at how dominant those Terran players were during their era. The top 3 Terran players (NaDa/oov/Flash) have 17 championships compared to 7 championships from the top 3 Protoss' (Bisu, Nal_rA, Jangbi). And obviously we're not talking about a small sample size here, BW's been around for a while..
On September 11 2017 16:06 iFU.pauline wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 15:52 Letmelose wrote:
I will talk only about achievements, the only metric that can be vaguely compared between players from different eras. I will discuss the results of legendary players in individual leagues that had continuous presence across all eras (OGN StarLeague/KPGA Tournament/MSL). KPGA Tournaments started in 2002, so people like BoxeR will be shafted slightly, and MSL got cancelled earlier than the OGN StarLeague, so people who were doing well towards the end of professional Brood War such as FanTaSy will be shafted slightly also.
If there is a tie, I will take into account their other placements to break the tie.
Most championships:
1) NaDa: 6
2) Flash: 6
3) Jaedong: 5
4) iloveoov: 5
5) sAviOr: 4
6) BoxeR: 3
7) July: 3
8) Bisu: 3
9) Nal_rA: 2
10) JangBi: 2
4 terran players, 3 zerg players, and 3 protoss players.
Most number of finals:
1. NaDa: 10
2. Jaedong: 9
3. Flash: 8
4. BoxeR: 7
5. sAviOr: 6
6. iloveoov: 5
7. July: 5
8. Stork: 5
9. FanTaSy: 5
10. Bisu: 4
5 terran players, 3 zerg players, and 2 protoss players.
Most number of semi-finals:
1. Jaedong: 12
2. NaDa: 11
3. Flash: 11
4. YellOw: 10
5. iloveoov: 9
6. BoxeR: 9
7. Nal_rA: 8
8. Stork: 8
9. ChoJJa: 8
10. sAviOr: 7
4 terran players, 4 zerg players, and 3 protoss players.
Most number of quarter-finals:
1. NaDa: 18
2. Flash: 16
3. BoxeR: 16
4. Jaedong: 14
5. YellOw: 14
6. XellOs: 13
7. iloveoov: 12
8. Stork: 12
9. Reach: 12
10. ChoJJa: 12
5 terran players, 3 zerg players, and 2 protoss players.
Most number of round of sixteen appearances:
1. NaDa: 28
2. Stork: 24
3. BoxeR: 23
4. Flash: 21
5. YellOw: 21
6. XellOs: 20
7. July: 19
8. Jaedong: 18
9. Reach: 18
10. iloveoov: 17
5 terran players, 3 zerg players, and 2 protoss players.
As you can see, terran players are always dominating the all-time lists no matter which way you cut it. It's always in the same order, terran on top, and protoss at the bottom.
However, the number one player in terms of achievements is not clear cut for the protoss race as it is for the other two races:
NaDa is literally the top placed terran player for every single bracket stage.
Jaedong is the top placed zerg player for every single bracket stage apart from the number of round of sixteen appearances.
Stork is the top placed protoss player for every single bracket stage apart from the number of championships won.
Bisu is probably the top placed protoss player overall, but fails to even make the top ten list on most of the lists due to his inconsistency.
Protoss is the least successful race in the major individual leagues by almost any metric, but to make matters worse, there are no towering figureheads for the protoss race in terms of individual league achievements. Bisu simply does not dominate the other protoss legends such as Stork, Nal_rA and Reach apart from being more clutch in the finals. Remember, all it takes is a goon upgrade from Stork in game five, and we may have Stork as the most accomplished protoss player of all time in the major individual leagues. Those are the kind of stats we need and of course NaDa comes on top.
Well i linked the liquipedia page as my source, it has all those numbers  . Like i said i mainly factored in player accomplishments but i also took individual player skill levels into consideration (in Bisu's case for example, i called him a bonjwa based on his skill level). You also have to factor in the level of play during each players prime.
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i would appreciate if people would drop the cancer that is the word tesagi. it never was a fun little meme, idk what you have been smoking. people position themself as a 12 year old crying imba, disregarding skills completely.
and now because "everybody" has been using it, it is somehow the communities opinion that tesagi is a real problem, resulting in balance discussion threads springing up like mushrooms, because we really need to have the 3452341 balance discussion thread this year.
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On September 11 2017 16:26 NoS-Craig wrote:Here's a translated video of BW pros talking about Tesagi. The up-loader translated it to English best he could. I think some of you might have seen this before. Pretty good watch for people who want to see pros view on the situation. + Show Spoiler +
The main issue is mech. BW is a defensive game and mech is the ultimate defensive composition. Mech 3-3 armies are extremely powerful (due to mines, siege tank attack upgrades and being able to move all your an insanely high value army with 6-7 hotkeys) and easily accessible.
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Baa?21243 Posts
JESUS TRY THE HARD LIFE OF A ZERG. WE DONT HAVE FUCKING MAP CROSSING ARCLITE CANNONS, EVERYTHING CANNOT BE REPAIRS, WE DONT HAVE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION LIKE SPIDER MINES AND WE CERTAINLY AS FUCK DONT HAVE NUCLEAR WEAPONS CAUSE ANY GAME THAT HAS THAT SUCKS LIKE COMMAND AND CONQUER 3. ALSO, WE DONT HAVE FLYING BUILDINGS OR MOTHERFUCKING DEFENSIVE STRUCTURES THAT SHOOT AIR AND GROUND AND CAN BE REPAIRED AND COST 100$ FUCKING MINERALS. OUR WORKERS DIE WHEN THE WIND BLOWS TOO HARD AND SURE AS FUCK DONT HAVE FUSION CUTTERS. WAIT? YOU HAVE GOLIATHS THAT SHOOT ACROSS THE MAP AT AIR UNITS AND CAN BE REPAIRED AND ARE CHEAP? JESUS WHO MADE THIS GAME.
JESUS I WISH I HAD 5-6 of THE ALL TIME BEST PLAYERS TO MODEL MY GAME AFTER. WAIT? WERENT THEY ALL FUCKING TERRAN? WE HAVE NADA, BOXER, OOV, FLASH, MIDAS and XELLOS ALL KICKING ASS FOR YEARS AT A TIME WHILE WE GET FUCKING FAT ASS JULY WHO SUCKS NOW, YELLOW WHO ALWAYS FUCKING SUCKED BUT NOBODY KNEW FOR A BIT AND WE FINALLY GOT SAVIOR BUT THEN THEY DRESSED HIM LIKE HITLER SO HE SUCKED AND NOW WE HAVE JAEDONG BUT THAT KID CANT FIGURE OUT THE NEW KOREAN MAPS THAT DONT MATTER. JESUS FUCK IT MUST BE NICE TO HAVE PLAYERS THAT SPAN DECADES AND DOMINATE THE ENTIRE TIME. GIMME SOME OF THAT PLEASE.
HEY WHAT ABOUT BUILDINGS DO YOU LOSE A SCV EACH TIME YOU MAKE ONE? NO. WHAT THE FUCK? WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU CAN ACTUALLY TELL THEM TO RETURN TO MINING AFTER THEY ARE DONE BUILDING? I THOUGHT THAT AUTO MINING GARBAGE WAS FOR HACKERS OR BAD GAMES. TERRAN'S CAN DO IT? FUCK THAT SOUNDS LIKE A SWEET DEAL. EACH TIME WE (zerg) HAVE TO BUILD WE TELL ONE OF OUR SACRED MINERS "HEY FUCK YOU TIME TO DIE" AND THEY DO. THEN WE GET A FUCKING BUILDING. WHICH, HALF THE TIME ISNT ENOUGH: WE HAVE TO PAY MOREE FUCKING MONEY TO GET IT TO DO SOME SHIT LIKE DICK THE GROUND OR SPRAY PISS IN THE AIR.
WHEN YOU SELECT RANDOM, WHAT GAME SCREEN DO YOU GET IN BETWEEN? ANY GUESSERS? THAT'S RIGHT: TERRAN. EVEN THE FUCKING GAME KNOWS WHAT YOU SHOULD OBVIOUSLY HAVE CHOSEN WHEN YOU FORGOT TO SELECT TERRAN AND GOT RANDOM. FUCKING INSANE BIAS.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
I highly doubt theres balance issues. Its more that when you look at all the top players there, all of them are era defining. Oov for instance was the main stepping stone to modern Broodwar.
Flash as well is so good at the game mechanically that he could beat anyone with any race.
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Baa?21243 Posts
To paraphrase Grandmaster Artosis, the entirety of Terran strategy for every matchup can be summarized as waiting to get enough tanks to kill an entire army in one volley. Even the short-sighted and simple Terran players can recognize such a great imbalance. But I have to admit, having the fastest unit in the game on only the 2nd tier of tech with a short build time, that can shoot fragmentation grenades capable of vaporizing all peons, zerglings, zealots, defilers, and high and dark templar in seconds, and can even shoot these grenades backwards without losing acceleration, AND can shit out three mini-nukes that burrow into the ground only to pop out at the perfect time and seek out an enemy unit at an inescapable speed, gives siege tanks and their arclite cannons quite a run for their money.
Ah, how could I forget their cost? Let's make a list of units (excluding peons) that are cheaper than vultures:
--Zergling
--Marine
That was easy.
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not this stupid Tinyland video again. why are people always posting that video, everybody seen it 10 times by now.
Tinyland just used a clickbait video title and goes like "this shit is real", while the pros are joking and orchestrating this "debate", just look at sea's outfit and the way he is similing.
i already explained how Tinyland/the korean community calling tesagi/gundam was 100% wrong in his other video just by simply analysing the game, because Light did 3 out of 3 things correct while jaedong did about 0-1 out of 3 things right.
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On September 11 2017 16:38 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
To paraphrase Grandmaster Artosis, the entirety of Terran strategy for every matchup can be summarized as waiting to get enough tanks to kill an entire army in one volley. Even the short-sighted and simple Terran players can recognize such a great imbalance. But I have to admit, having the fastest unit in the game on only the 2nd tier of tech with a short build time, that can shoot fragmentation grenades capable of vaporizing all peons, zerglings, zealots, defilers, and high and dark templar in seconds, and can even shoot these grenades backwards without losing acceleration, AND can shit out three mini-nukes that burrow into the ground only to pop out at the perfect time and seek out an enemy unit at an inescapable speed, gives siege tanks and their arclite cannons quite a run for their money.
Ah, how could I forget their cost? Let's make a list of units (excluding peons) that are cheaper than vultures:
--Zergling
--Marine
That was easy.
The only thing keeping vultures from breaking the game is human limits. There's so much potential value in every single vulture it's insane, but since they are so apm intensive even progamers can only get a fraction of utility out of them. Which is enough to be one of the best units in the game anyway.
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On September 11 2017 16:10 TT1 wrote:^ Now look at how dominant those Terran players were during their era. The top 3 Terran players (NaDa/oov/Flash) have 17 championships compared to 7 championships from the top 3 Protoss' (Bisu, Nal_rA, Jangbi). And obviously we're not talking about a small sample size here, BW's been around for a while.. Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 16:06 iFU.pauline wrote:On September 11 2017 15:52 Letmelose wrote:
I will talk only about achievements, the only metric that can be vaguely compared between players from different eras. I will discuss the results of legendary players in individual leagues that had continuous presence across all eras (OGN StarLeague/KPGA Tournament/MSL). KPGA Tournaments started in 2002, so people like BoxeR will be shafted slightly, and MSL got cancelled earlier than the OGN StarLeague, so people who were doing well towards the end of professional Brood War such as FanTaSy will be shafted slightly also.
If there is a tie, I will take into account their other placements to break the tie.
Most championships:
1) NaDa: 6
2) Flash: 6
3) Jaedong: 5
4) iloveoov: 5
5) sAviOr: 4
6) BoxeR: 3
7) July: 3
8) Bisu: 3
9) Nal_rA: 2
10) JangBi: 2
4 terran players, 3 zerg players, and 3 protoss players.
Most number of finals:
1. NaDa: 10
2. Jaedong: 9
3. Flash: 8
4. BoxeR: 7
5. sAviOr: 6
6. iloveoov: 5
7. July: 5
8. Stork: 5
9. FanTaSy: 5
10. Bisu: 4
5 terran players, 3 zerg players, and 2 protoss players.
Most number of semi-finals:
1. Jaedong: 12
2. NaDa: 11
3. Flash: 11
4. YellOw: 10
5. iloveoov: 9
6. BoxeR: 9
7. Nal_rA: 8
8. Stork: 8
9. ChoJJa: 8
10. sAviOr: 7
4 terran players, 4 zerg players, and 3 protoss players.
Most number of quarter-finals:
1. NaDa: 18
2. Flash: 16
3. BoxeR: 16
4. Jaedong: 14
5. YellOw: 14
6. XellOs: 13
7. iloveoov: 12
8. Stork: 12
9. Reach: 12
10. ChoJJa: 12
5 terran players, 3 zerg players, and 2 protoss players.
Most number of round of sixteen appearances:
1. NaDa: 28
2. Stork: 24
3. BoxeR: 23
4. Flash: 21
5. YellOw: 21
6. XellOs: 20
7. July: 19
8. Jaedong: 18
9. Reach: 18
10. iloveoov: 17
5 terran players, 3 zerg players, and 2 protoss players.
As you can see, terran players are always dominating the all-time lists no matter which way you cut it. It's always in the same order, terran on top, and protoss at the bottom.
However, the number one player in terms of achievements is not clear cut for the protoss race as it is for the other two races:
NaDa is literally the top placed terran player for every single bracket stage.
Jaedong is the top placed zerg player for every single bracket stage apart from the number of round of sixteen appearances.
Stork is the top placed protoss player for every single bracket stage apart from the number of championships won.
Bisu is probably the top placed protoss player overall, but fails to even make the top ten list on most of the lists due to his inconsistency.
Protoss is the least successful race in the major individual leagues by almost any metric, but to make matters worse, there are no towering figureheads for the protoss race in terms of individual league achievements. Bisu simply does not dominate the other protoss legends such as Stork, Nal_rA and Reach apart from being more clutch in the finals. Remember, all it takes is a goon upgrade from Stork in game five, and we may have Stork as the most accomplished protoss player of all time in the major individual leagues. Those are the kind of stats we need and of course NaDa comes on top. Well i linked the liquipedia page as my source, it has all those numbers . Like i said i mainly factored on player accomplishments but i also took individual player skill levels into consideration (in Bisu's case for example, i called him a bonjwa based on his skill level). You also have to factor in the level of play during each players prime.
Isn't absolute skill level an absolutely terrible metric of judgement when comparing players from different eras? It wouldn't even take Bisu, By.Sun (who was said to be the top ranked protoss of his team towards the end of professional Brood War) would wipe the floor with almost every great player in history due to how advanced the meta-game evolved over the years, despite having never reached the round of sixteen in his professional career.
By that logic, Jesse Owens, one of the most accomplished track and field in history, as well as being the record holder for the 100 metre sprint for a longer duration than any other man in history, is rendered near useless judging by one of the two metrics you've mentioned, because his actual 100 metre record is actual pretty abysmal by today's standards.
Once you factor in the level of play to any significant degree, you are basically asking people to ignore players from the past. What's the point of counting Bisu's MSL trophies in 2007, when any rendition of him in the more recent past would wipe the floor with him? Bisu's best record in 2011 was the round of sixteen and the last finals he had seen was in 2008, but from an absolute skill point, he was head-and-shoulders above Bisu in 2007, despite the latter reaching three MSL finals in a row.
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EPT
