EPTAll time BW player rankings/a balance discussion - Page 4
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RedW4rr10r
Germany745 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
On September 11 2017 23:22 RedW4rr10r wrote: Another balance the thread? lol No, this is the intricate art of discussing tesagi. | ||
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Demurity
United States424 Posts
Look at what you did TT1 | ||
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TelecoM
United States10656 Posts
On September 11 2017 15:30 reincremate wrote: I think it's because Protoss is the easy race, so most really skilled players will pick Terran and Zerg to challenge themselves. Boxer could have won like 12 OSLs if he played Protoss. ....... lol, Boxer did originally play Protoss I believe he said in one of his Interviews, then he switched to Terran. BoxeR also was one of the most creative players withi his Terran dropship signature style, not to include that PvZ / PvT can be pretty damn hard at the higher levels the Korean pros play at, your entire statement is pretty much void. =\ | ||
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Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
On September 11 2017 16:26 NoS-Craig wrote: Here's a translated video of BW pros talking about Tesagi. The up-loader translated it to English best he could. I think some of you might have seen this before. Pretty good watch for people who want to see pros view on the situation. + Show Spoiler + don't get why people keep posting this. This guy has no idea what he is talking about. These koreans are joking around and appealing to casual base who has been calling terrans taesagi because of flash.... There is no taesagi according to top zergs. They all say other terrans can be destroyed except flash. Also balance doesn't even affect us amyway. Protoss should shut the hell up. They are beneficiaries of low ceiling requirement. Its only when you reach 2500+ mmr does it suddenly become hard. Thats when you just dont 1a2a3a4a with maximized effiency anymore. You actually have to do what other two races have been doung to win | ||
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EndingLife
United States1585 Posts
If they cost something like 200 minerals and 100 gas with a 60 second build time, this game would be completely balanced... | ||
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Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
On September 11 2017 17:26 Morbidius wrote: Jaedong is a bonjwa by every possible metric anyway, its just that Flash played like a god in 2010 and outshined everyone. As for Tesagi, i think PvZ is the matchup with some real problems. why? current data shows from ladder protoss beats zerg until mmr reaches mmr? also zerg has these A level zergs that shits on sone toss like stork, tyson, amd etc. Lot of bad toss that skew the stats | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
On September 11 2017 19:35 TT1 wrote: Has the game really been fine? There's plenty of data that suggests otherwise. BW's been around for a long time, of course there's gonna be protoss and zerg winners. You have to look at every race as a whole to judge things properly tho. In any case the game can be balanced around maps.. but that alone is enough to tell you that there's an inherent issue (you have to balance maps around Terran). If i had to make a balance change i honestly wouldn't know what to do, mostly in fear of breaking the game. Maybe just a scout buff? :3 /s I don't think maps affecting balance is an inherent issue. I would always expect a flat featureless map to be imbalanced. I have written about this somewhere before, but one of the larger issues is that interesting, featureful maps tend to favour Terran. Terran like narrow passages, Terran like cliffs, Terran can do everything they want on 3 gas. And our big problem comes in when we realise Protoss like narrow passages vs Zerg, but wide areas vs Terran. Protoss like easy bases vs Zerg, but dislike Terran having easy bases vs Protoss. So whenever we try to help Protoss vs Zerg, we have trouble to not hurt Protoss vs Terran. Whenever we try to help Zerg vs Terran, we have trouble not to hurt Protoss vs Zerg. Protoss are the trouble race because they want one thing vs Zerg and another vs Terran. Terran want the same thing vs Zerg and Protoss, Zerg want the same thing vs Protoss and Terran. Zerg have less trouble vs Terran than Protoss have trouble vs Zerg, so we always end up doing things that help Protoss a little vs Zerg that give Zerg a harder time vs Terran, rather than things to help Zerg vs Terran that would make Protoss vs Zerg even more challenging. If you can't think of strategies to solve this problem of how the races function, you can't solve the slight imbalance. You can try to think of units Protoss use vs Zerg but not Terran, units Zerg use vs Terran but not Protoss, units Terran use vs Protoss but not Zerg, but you're sort of ignoring a fundamental issue. We could make corsairs accel faster or have higher top speed so protoss lose them less vs scourge, we could make lurker aspect research faster so the 5 rax timing isn't as strong, but these changes are too specific to what is a more general problem. IMO basically the only way to solve this completely is if you decide to make maps that are only meant for one matchup and mirrors. PvZ maps, TvZ maps, PvT maps. Then you eliminate the frustration of dealing with the Protoss. But that isn't as romantic or fun, and frankly that slight imbalance is just a part of the game that makes it so endearing to fans. We want good representation among the races, but we also love a good underdog story, where players are forced to pull out special strategies to deal with a map that is not balanced in a matchup that is difficult. Normally the better players just wins with better mechanics, but in the finals you see two players at the top of their form, and you see something more special. I think you would lose something about BW if you tried to make it perfectly balanced, because if you did why would you ever need a Boxer, a Nal Ra, a Zero or any player known primarily for creativity? Much motivation for surprising the opponent would be gone if things were completely fair. | ||
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Crunchums
United States11143 Posts
edit: I should clarify that this is not a balance complaint. BW is about as balanced as a game can be. | ||
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rauk
United States2228 Posts
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city42
1656 Posts
In terms of the best players ever (where "best" is measured by peak level) I'm pretty comfortable with a Flash/JD/Bisu/Stork/Fantasy top 5, in some order. Fitting those five into a single ranking alongside the great players of old isn't worth the effort, in my opinion. | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
On September 12 2017 00:30 Shinokuki wrote: why? current data shows from ladder protoss beats zerg until mmr reaches mmr? also zerg has these A level zergs that shits on sone toss like stork, tyson, amd etc. Lot of bad toss that skew the stats well the stats right now are still bugged, on my account I receive a little less than 1 ghost match per match played that affect my MMR (pretty much unable to progress in mmr despite winning more than losing^^), I assume lots of other players too. Rly annoying me btw, it's been a month, still doesn't work, I almost stop playing. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On September 11 2017 23:00 Bacillus01 wrote: If you look at the current Global ladder standing, it seems clear that Terran has some kind of advantage, at least in ladder play. Or is it because in korea there are just a lot more terran players than other races? There could be other reasons than Tesagi to this but in my personal opinion there is some truth to Tesagi TOP 20 : 15 Terrans, 3 Zergs, 2 Protosses source : https://starlog.gg/en/leaderboard 1 Korea `.`;; 3188 terran 197 76 3 2 Korea organ[[[ 3153 terran 196 104 0 3 Korea vBisuv 3128 protoss 136 49 1 4 U.S. East lllillil 3098 terran 109 19 0 5 Korea By.SnOw1 3083 protoss 195 95 0 6 Korea moolgogi^^ 3073 terran 110 41 0 7 Korea wGm.Shine 3069 zerg 200 122 1 8 U.S. West Scan 3061 terran 84 16 0 9 U.S. West lllllilli 3027 terran 67 11 0 10 Korea IlIIlllIlIlIII 3016 terran 91 16 0 11 Korea SKT_Pantasy 3013 terran 93 30 0 12 Korea Bright[KaL] 3011 terran 105 29 2 13 Korea inguh^^ 2995 terran 87 28 0 14 Korea moksaeggi 2986 terran 213 130 0 15 Korea 205DA 2982 terran 81 13 0 16 Korea IIIlllllIIIIIIl 2979 terran 75 22 0 17 Korea nocopyright 2961 terran 92 25 0 18 Korea mae=99 2945 zerg 88 28 0 19 Korea masc 2938 zerg 174 97 2 20 Korea skehahffj0 2922 terran 152 69 2 Korea has always loved Terran. It was one of the reasons I loved playing versus Koreans is I got to play my favorite match up (zvt) a lot. On Fish server most of my games were ZvT. On Korean server in SC2 same thing. When I see Korean zergs laddering, feels like they get zvt a lot. Hell I watch Artosis ladder and he gets TvT a shit ton. Terran so good, but it's fun to play against (until that mech switch comes anyway  ). | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
On September 11 2017 23:51 Demurity wrote: It's amazing what the hivemind effect can do... This is like watching mass hysteria, artificially creating a problem that is not even there via over-analysis. (you might have lost your mind, or you might argue what is artificial) | ||
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playa
United States1284 Posts
Guy belongs on an honorary list. Pioneers of cheese or something. I think Oov is the second best Terran, by far, but I can see how it can go either way. Protoss sucks cause only one person has ever been able to play P vs Z. Hard to win things when you have to dodge a matchup. Few get that lucky in brackets. | ||
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reincremate
China2210 Posts
On September 12 2017 00:10 GGzerG wrote: ....... lol, Boxer did originally play Protoss I believe he said in one of his Interviews, then he switched to Terran. BoxeR also was one of the most creative players withi his Terran dropship signature style, not to include that PvZ / PvT can be pretty damn hard at the higher levels the Korean pros play at, your entire statement is pretty much void. =\ You see, that just proves my point. Boxer would have dominated the scene at least 15 times harder than Flash did and is doing if he stuck with P, but he knew that would just ruin esports since no one would want to watch one guy pwn everyone forever and ever, so he switched to T and left the protoss innovation to mortals like Nal_ra (no disrespect to mortals like Nal_ra). He took a dive for esports, but he managed to do pretty well anyway. | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
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Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
On September 12 2017 01:41 ProMeTheus112 wrote: well the stats right now are still bugged, on my account I receive a little less than 1 ghost match per match played that affect my MMR (pretty much unable to progress in mmr despite winning more than losing^^), I assume lots of other players too. Rly annoying me btw, it's been a month, still doesn't work, I almost stop playing. you still cant deny toss has best win rate at lower midnlevels | ||
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shall_burn
252 Posts
Marines&medics are better than hydras and lings, that's why zerg has to get t2-t3 units to fight terran t1 forces. Hydras and lings are better than zealots and dragoons, protoss needs hts, reavers and even sairs for scouting Zealots and dragoons are stronger than terran t1 (this one is tricky though, but non-the-less). The bulk of protoss army is zeal goon, and to fight that terran needs factory units. See, it's all about the initial t1 units. | ||
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Kare
Norway786 Posts
Is the highest skill ceiling still far away? Maybe, maybe not.. But it has never been higher than now, so that's what we have to work with, unless someone knows a way to travel to the future. Now, as for the hinting at Terran being too strong, I think it's better to look at the players, rather than their race. My personal opinion is that Flash is just so good, that he makes Terran seem stronger than it actually is, and I actually predict that if Flash played Protoss or Zerg, he would make them seem even stronger than he makes Terran seem now. Just look at a matchup where balance is not an issue, TvT. Flash is absolutely crushing every Terran on the planet, yeah Last can take him out online sometimes, but when it really matters, he is just way too strong. Flash crushed the second best Terran(Last) in the previous ASL 3-0. Whenever he plays the matchup without balance as an issue, he dominates all others of the same race, and have do so for a very very long time. He had the highest win streak with 22 wins in TvT in a row. Now the question is, does Bisu dominate in PvP? Does Larva(who beats flash regularly online in real macro games), dominate in ZvZ? No, Larva get's trashed in ZvZ all the time, but somehow he is able to even sometimes dominate Flash in ZvT, so I guess Terran is too strong? I could go on forever, but this is how I feel atleast.. The washed up Stork even took out Last(the second best Terran in the world) in ASL today, after Last was more greedy than scrooge mcduck and got away with it, Stork suicided his speed shuttle with reaver, got crushed by the timing push, lost 2 bases, and still ended up winning the game with 200/200 supply compared to Last's 100. | ||
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