I don't think there's any real way to prove Terran is imbalanced statistically, there's so many variables with maps, player skill is all over the place going back in time, etc. If you have the top few players of all time (relative to their peers) you have what boxer/nada/iloveoov/flash and savior/jaedong as the bonjwas? If we assume the races are pretty balanced then what is the chance the top 6 players will be 2 of each race? what are the odds it's 4t/2z/0p? Maybe the very top players just happened to play Terran and a couple Zergs, in an alternate universe some of those guys pick Protoss and are they just as dominant with P? We can't know obviously but my point is the sample size of the best players isn't big enough. As far as I remember there was never a period where there were like >3 players of one race dominating, at the top of the Kespa rankings. Most of those guys had some kind of paradigm changing advantage mechanically, does that say much about balance if a player comes along with better mechanics than everyone else and dominates for a few months or a year while the rest of the field catches up or dies off?
If you enlarge the group to the top 10 like in the OP or top 15 does it even out? Ya it does, there's a bunch of Protoss players that I think could be regarded in the top ~15 of all time but not in the top 6 (again relatively, not absolute skill) Bisu, rA, Reach, Jangbi, Stork. I know there's been a lot of results posted in the thread already but to add another, of the 15 players that made >3 starleague finals (there's only a few who made 2 finals, and a bunch of 1 timers) there's 5 of each race, yes the Protosses won less titles between them but that's such a small sample even still, those finals hinge on a single game or even a single engagement or whatever, it doesn't really say anything about balance. So balance depends on what parameters you are using to measure it, a lot.
I know some people don't have much of a grasp of statistics, considering a lot of people whine when on a new map a matchup goes like 5-0 in one races favor, or a top player loses to a lesser player on it... it was the map! fucking imba piece of shit! Maybe they don't know the history of BW with some unorthodox maps where one race had an advantage and the other had to figure out a way around it because the "standard" way to play didn't work. Maps like Katrina, Monty Hall etc. But yes of course there were maps that were just imbalanced for certain match ups as well.
Observation: Zergs have won more titles and had more champions in the last ~6 years of pro bw (2007-end of 2012) than Terran, Flash 6 titles, fantasy/forgg/mind 1 each, for 9 total . Zergs - Jaedong 5 titles, effort/hydra/calm/luxury/july/ggplay for 11 total. This is all after the PvZ revolution that made the match up much more balanced. If it wasn't for Flash, Jaedong would probably have won even more titles tilting it even more in Zergs favor. Had Jaedong not existed, the opposite could be said. Protoss during this time period of roughly modern BW had 6 titles, Bisu 3, Jangbi 2, Stork 1. It's still not really enough sample size to say much about balance, it's possible that Flash and Jaedong are just the 2 best players to play the game(absolute skill wise) had they picked another race maybe they would have been just as successful, maybe more or less, again we can't know unforunately. This is not counting the Gom tournaments or WCG Koreas in this time period but you could play with that too, not sure why the community basically discounts those things in favor of starleagues but whatever.
The fact that Flash is basically the consensus GOAT i think plays a huge part in Terran being seen as imbalanced by some people. It's been mentioned by multiple people in the thread already. Fantasy had a lot of success but only ended up getting one starleague title, he may have been shafted by the timing of the sc2 switch coming on the back of 3 consecutive osl finals. No other terrans in the last few years really achieved anything, Mind/ForGG had their 1 off tournament wins and went back to being human pretty fast.
Jaedong being the clear #2 or 1a or whatever you want to call him in absolute skill, well #3 and 4 are considered to be Bisu and Stork right? Those 4 were considered to be the S class for a long time at the height of skill in BW with Fantasy/Effort/Jangbi right below them. 2 p in the top 4 but they weren't as strong as 1/2
Post Kespa it is hard to say much about balance because the skill level dropped quite a bit, whoever were the best players to stick around dominated (Sea, Killer, hero) Once other big names started coming back like Bisu/Effort and later Flash/JD/Stork etc the dominant players changed pretty quickly once they got back into practicing full time. It wasn't about what race you played just about who was the best player. Which I think it is and always has been, once you get to a high enough level that P is not actually imbalanced (because of mechanics, and bad players limitations mechanically which doesn't have much to do with this discussion.)
People make some false assumptions in my view. T is the best race at high levels? Well Flash is the GOAT so it's easy to assume this but what if the sc2 transition never happened? Flash was not nearly as dominant in 2011-12, and was more on par with Bisu/Fantasy for his overall win rate, maybe he would have been overtaken completely, Jaedong already had been seemingly by that point. If we are assuming the overall skill of the top players is slowly rising over time and the skill ceiling will never be hit how can you say anything about balance at a skill level we have never seen or may never see?
The ladder is a pretty poor indicator for balance at any level really, at the top well you can see the list, there's a bunch of multiple accounts of the same people, scan is #8 on the ladder and it's pretty safe to say he's not that good compared to others in ASL for example. He has nothing to do all day but ladder or practice games with his amateur clan, top pros are preparing for ASL or doing their thing streaming and making bank.
I was very happy to hear Pete Stilwell say that balance patch/discussions were never even on the table. I'm know this is a discussion thread and that's fine, but you see the tesagi "meme" a ton on peoples streams, probably mostly from people who don't even play the game or are very familiar with it. Seems there's some sincerity behind the meme though from a lot of people which just equates it to whining, I guess that's something that comes from other communities moreso than BW, I don't know but it's really annoying. Just like when the 1a2a3a EZ race stuff was going on way back when, it's whining and it's annoying to a lot of people including myself. Ok I feel like I'm rambling like a madman but I needed to say something, I think it's the influx of newer users who come from other communities where balance complaints and patching is a thing is getting to me lol.
Yeah but this is TT1, a guy who played as semi-pro (pro?) whos the one coming in here to make a balance thread, not some random from sc2 who knows nothing about the game.
EDIT: also, flash is a player that practices so hard that others just cant fathom that level of effort to get to that skill level and maintain it. That also plays into why hes so good, not because of the race. Same with a player like kobe bryant, he willed himself to be one of the best players ever through sheer willpower.
On September 12 2017 01:54 playa wrote: Boxer is the most overrated player ever. I hate how early success in a game cements you as an all time great. May as well say Huk is the best SC 2 player ever. I'd even put Midas above Boxer. But, then again, I can't think of many Terrans I wouldn't put ahead of Boxer.
Guy belongs on an honorary list. Pioneers of cheese or something. I think Oov is the second best Terran, by far, but I can see how it can go either way. Protoss sucks cause only one person has ever been able to play P vs Z. Hard to win things when you have to dodge a matchup. Few get that lucky in brackets.
How is reaching OSL finals in 2004 and 2005 "early success"?
How is innovationg and revolutionising tactical play and micro lead to "pioneer of cheese"?
"I hate how early success in a game cements you as an all time great."
Should we not honour and respect the people that laid important stepping stones for everyone else to take advantage of? Do you think it was easy to cut through the jungle of early BW and find a successful path to victory? To be an original thinker and find solutions in the chaos?
On September 12 2017 04:37 Kare wrote: If you are going to discuss game balance, you have to look at it at this present time. Bringing in nada, boxer, iloveoov etc makes no sense, because if we sent larva, effort, jaedong back in time to play those guys with the knowledge they have of the game now, they would win every single game so easily it wouldn't even be funny to watch. So why would you even bring those days up? People were very far away from the highest skill ceiling back then, no point in bringing it up in balance talks.
Is the highest skill ceiling still far away? Maybe, maybe not.. But it has never been higher than now, so that's what we have to work with, unless someone knows a way to travel to the future.
Now, as for the hinting at Terran being too strong, I think it's better to look at the players, rather than their race. My personal opinion is that Flash is just so good, that he makes Terran seem stronger than it actually is, and I actually predict that if Flash played Protoss or Zerg, he would make them seem even stronger than he makes Terran seem now. Just look at a matchup where balance is not an issue, TvT. Flash is absolutely crushing every Terran on the planet, yeah Last can take him out online sometimes, but when it really matters, he is just way too strong. Flash crushed the second best Terran(Last) in the previous ASL 3-0. Whenever he plays the matchup without balance as an issue, he dominates all others of the same race, and have do so for a very very long time. He had the highest win streak with 22 wins in TvT in a row.
Now the question is, does Bisu dominate in PvP? Does Larva(who beats flash regularly online in real macro games), dominate in ZvZ? No, Larva get's trashed in ZvZ all the time, but somehow he is able to even sometimes dominate Flash in ZvT, so I guess Terran is too strong?
I could go on forever, but this is how I feel atleast..
The washed up Stork even took out Last(the second best Terran in the world) in ASL today, after Last was more greedy than scrooge mcduck and got away with it, Stork suicided his speed shuttle with reaver, got crushed by the timing push, lost 2 bases, and still ended up winning the game with 200/200 supply compared to Last's 100.
you're wrong. Larva has good zvz now hes not the old larva.
On September 12 2017 04:37 Kare wrote: If you are going to discuss game balance, you have to look at it at this present time. Bringing in nada, boxer, iloveoov etc makes no sense, because if we sent larva, effort, jaedong back in time to play those guys with the knowledge they have of the game now, they would win every single game so easily it wouldn't even be funny to watch. So why would you even bring those days up? People were very far away from the highest skill ceiling back then, no point in bringing it up in balance talks.
Is the highest skill ceiling still far away? Maybe, maybe not.. But it has never been higher than now, so that's what we have to work with, unless someone knows a way to travel to the future.
Now, as for the hinting at Terran being too strong, I think it's better to look at the players, rather than their race. My personal opinion is that Flash is just so good, that he makes Terran seem stronger than it actually is, and I actually predict that if Flash played Protoss or Zerg, he would make them seem even stronger than he makes Terran seem now. Just look at a matchup where balance is not an issue, TvT. Flash is absolutely crushing every Terran on the planet, yeah Last can take him out online sometimes, but when it really matters, he is just way too strong. Flash crushed the second best Terran(Last) in the previous ASL 3-0. Whenever he plays the matchup without balance as an issue, he dominates all others of the same race, and have do so for a very very long time. He had the highest win streak with 22 wins in TvT in a row.
Now the question is, does Bisu dominate in PvP? Does Larva(who beats flash regularly online in real macro games), dominate in ZvZ? No, Larva get's trashed in ZvZ all the time, but somehow he is able to even sometimes dominate Flash in ZvT, so I guess Terran is too strong?
I could go on forever, but this is how I feel atleast..
The washed up Stork even took out Last(the second best Terran in the world) in ASL today, after Last was more greedy than scrooge mcduck and got away with it, Stork suicided his speed shuttle with reaver, got crushed by the timing push, lost 2 bases, and still ended up winning the game with 200/200 supply compared to Last's 100.
you're wrong. Larva has good zvz now hes not the old larva.
On September 12 2017 04:37 Kare wrote: If you are going to discuss game balance, you have to look at it at this present time. Bringing in nada, boxer, iloveoov etc makes no sense, because if we sent larva, effort, jaedong back in time to play those guys with the knowledge they have of the game now, they would win every single game so easily it wouldn't even be funny to watch. So why would you even bring those days up? People were very far away from the highest skill ceiling back then, no point in bringing it up in balance talks.
Is the highest skill ceiling still far away? Maybe, maybe not.. But it has never been higher than now, so that's what we have to work with, unless someone knows a way to travel to the future.
Now, as for the hinting at Terran being too strong, I think it's better to look at the players, rather than their race. My personal opinion is that Flash is just so good, that he makes Terran seem stronger than it actually is, and I actually predict that if Flash played Protoss or Zerg, he would make them seem even stronger than he makes Terran seem now. Just look at a matchup where balance is not an issue, TvT. Flash is absolutely crushing every Terran on the planet, yeah Last can take him out online sometimes, but when it really matters, he is just way too strong. Flash crushed the second best Terran(Last) in the previous ASL 3-0. Whenever he plays the matchup without balance as an issue, he dominates all others of the same race, and have do so for a very very long time. He had the highest win streak with 22 wins in TvT in a row.
Now the question is, does Bisu dominate in PvP? Does Larva(who beats flash regularly online in real macro games), dominate in ZvZ? No, Larva get's trashed in ZvZ all the time, but somehow he is able to even sometimes dominate Flash in ZvT, so I guess Terran is too strong?
I could go on forever, but this is how I feel atleast..
The washed up Stork even took out Last(the second best Terran in the world) in ASL today, after Last was more greedy than scrooge mcduck and got away with it, Stork suicided his speed shuttle with reaver, got crushed by the timing push, lost 2 bases, and still ended up winning the game with 200/200 supply compared to Last's 100.
Does Bisu dominate PvP? Have you seen his PvP when he streams? Yes he does, look at his post KeSPA era winrate:
And you're actually talking about a BO1 group stage match? sSak beat Stork in a game where Stork had a huge econ lead AND he also beat Last, is sSak considered the 2nd best Terran in the world? We're talking about championship winning players/bonjwas that have dominated the game throughout the history of BW.. not just a single BO1 group stage match.
On September 12 2017 04:37 Kare wrote: If you are going to discuss game balance, you have to look at it at this present time. Bringing in nada, boxer, iloveoov etc makes no sense, because if we sent larva, effort, jaedong back in time to play those guys with the knowledge they have of the game now, they would win every single game so easily it wouldn't even be funny to watch. So why would you even bring those days up? People were very far away from the highest skill ceiling back then, no point in bringing it up in balance talks.
Is the highest skill ceiling still far away? Maybe, maybe not.. But it has never been higher than now, so that's what we have to work with, unless someone knows a way to travel to the future.
Now, as for the hinting at Terran being too strong, I think it's better to look at the players, rather than their race. My personal opinion is that Flash is just so good, that he makes Terran seem stronger than it actually is, and I actually predict that if Flash played Protoss or Zerg, he would make them seem even stronger than he makes Terran seem now. Just look at a matchup where balance is not an issue, TvT. Flash is absolutely crushing every Terran on the planet, yeah Last can take him out online sometimes, but when it really matters, he is just way too strong. Flash crushed the second best Terran(Last) in the previous ASL 3-0. Whenever he plays the matchup without balance as an issue, he dominates all others of the same race, and have do so for a very very long time. He had the highest win streak with 22 wins in TvT in a row.
Now the question is, does Bisu dominate in PvP? Does Larva(who beats flash regularly online in real macro games), dominate in ZvZ? No, Larva get's trashed in ZvZ all the time, but somehow he is able to even sometimes dominate Flash in ZvT, so I guess Terran is too strong?
I could go on forever, but this is how I feel atleast..
The washed up Stork even took out Last(the second best Terran in the world) in ASL today, after Last was more greedy than scrooge mcduck and got away with it, Stork suicided his speed shuttle with reaver, got crushed by the timing push, lost 2 bases, and still ended up winning the game with 200/200 supply compared to Last's 100.
you're wrong. Larva has good zvz now hes not the old larva.
His game vs. Killer was underwhelming at best.
A BO loss that inevitably would lose him the game in long rush distance 2 player map? I chalk a good chunk of that game to a 12 hatch > 12 pool gas over his skill.
On September 12 2017 04:37 Kare wrote: If you are going to discuss game balance, you have to look at it at this present time. Bringing in nada, boxer, iloveoov etc makes no sense, because if we sent larva, effort, jaedong back in time to play those guys with the knowledge they have of the game now, they would win every single game so easily it wouldn't even be funny to watch. So why would you even bring those days up? People were very far away from the highest skill ceiling back then, no point in bringing it up in balance talks.
Is the highest skill ceiling still far away? Maybe, maybe not.. But it has never been higher than now, so that's what we have to work with, unless someone knows a way to travel to the future.
Now, as for the hinting at Terran being too strong, I think it's better to look at the players, rather than their race. My personal opinion is that Flash is just so good, that he makes Terran seem stronger than it actually is, and I actually predict that if Flash played Protoss or Zerg, he would make them seem even stronger than he makes Terran seem now. Just look at a matchup where balance is not an issue, TvT. Flash is absolutely crushing every Terran on the planet, yeah Last can take him out online sometimes, but when it really matters, he is just way too strong. Flash crushed the second best Terran(Last) in the previous ASL 3-0. Whenever he plays the matchup without balance as an issue, he dominates all others of the same race, and have do so for a very very long time. He had the highest win streak with 22 wins in TvT in a row.
Now the question is, does Bisu dominate in PvP? Does Larva(who beats flash regularly online in real macro games), dominate in ZvZ? No, Larva get's trashed in ZvZ all the time, but somehow he is able to even sometimes dominate Flash in ZvT, so I guess Terran is too strong?
I could go on forever, but this is how I feel atleast..
The washed up Stork even took out Last(the second best Terran in the world) in ASL today, after Last was more greedy than scrooge mcduck and got away with it, Stork suicided his speed shuttle with reaver, got crushed by the timing push, lost 2 bases, and still ended up winning the game with 200/200 supply compared to Last's 100.
Does Bisu dominate PvP? Have you seen his PvP when he streams? Yes he does, look at his post KeSPA era winrate:
And you're actually talking about a BO1 group stage match? sSak beat Stork in a game where Stork had a huge econ lead AND he also beat Last, is sSak considered the 2nd best Terran in the world? We're talking about championship winning players/bonjwas that have dominated the game throughout the history of BW.. not just a single BO1 group stage match.
Post kespa is not as fair of a comparison since protoss didnt have any good protoss until the return of players like stork, rain, best... so that statistic is pretty heavily skewed imo.
On September 12 2017 05:23 FlaShFTW wrote: Yeah but this is TT1, a guy who played as semi-pro (pro?) whos the one coming in here to make a balance thread, not some random from sc2 who knows nothing about the game.
EDIT: also, flash is a player that practices so hard that others just cant fathom that level of effort to get to that skill level and maintain it. That also plays into why hes so good, not because of the race. Same with a player like kobe bryant, he willed himself to be one of the best players ever through sheer willpower.
If you're responding to me then yes, I know who TT1 is and it is kind of funny a foreign Protoss is making the thread about tesagi but it's clear he's doing it from the viewpoint of Korean pros at the highest level, as the discussion should be. He also started the thread with some attempt to provide some starting points for discussion, not balance whining like erggg vultures so cheap! comsat imba, etc.
The point of my post is that what is perceived as balance changes with the skill level of the absolute top players because they are delving into uncharted territory as time goes on. The GOAT has to play one race, he happens to play terran but we can't prove that is the reason he is great, or rather the reason that he is slightly better than #2. The #2 player does as well, it might be a different race than #1 player (it is if we agree that player is Jaedong.) , so how can we say Terran is imbalanced when there's one player who is dominating with it and all the other Terrans might do ok, but nothing notably above the #2 zerg or #2 protoss in absolute skill. Maybe Flash is just that slightly better than Jaedong? Maybe he had some luck go his way in their finals vs each other, it's such a small sample of games and we can see if you take their entire careers vs each other it's virtually 50/50, even then it's not a big sample. It is not a game of perfect information and there is a lot more luck in the game than I think most people realize or would like to admit.
If the top few players in aboslute skill ALL played Terran then maybe you can look at racial balance actually being a problem, or if NO Protoss player was anywhere near the top, but I think it's pretty agreed upon by the community that Bisu is #3 and Stork is #4, If we expand the list out to top 20, 30 or whatever it gets more and more balanced which could point to the fact the game is pretty well balanced, and the biggest deciding factor is a players skill, experience and preparation, it's just impossible to say that their race plays a part or if it does, how much of a part does it play?
All this feels kind of stupid considering we know that maps play a massive part in balance and those are changing very quickly in the Kespa days, before any kind of balance can really be established or new builds can be developed. Many of those maps were thrown out after 1 or 2 starleague seasons which is such a short time to develop new builds or establish a decent sample size to determine balance. I think most people who've been around for a while I think don't want to see any kind of balance changes, but if balance is something that needs to be addressed then it's done by the map pool.
On September 12 2017 04:37 shall_burn wrote: it's all about the t1 units. T>Z>P>T. Marines&medics are better than hydras and lings, that's why zerg has to get t2-t3 units to fight terran t1 forces. Hydras and lings are better than zealots and dragoons, protoss needs hts, reavers and even sairs for scouting Zealots and dragoons are stronger than terran t1 (this one is tricky though, but non-the-less). The bulk of protoss army is zeal goon, and to fight that terran needs factory units. See, it's all about the initial t1 units.
Zealot+dragoon isn't really the reason why terrans mech against protoss.
On September 12 2017 04:37 shall_burn wrote: it's all about the t1 units. T>Z>P>T. Marines&medics are better than hydras and lings, that's why zerg has to get t2-t3 units to fight terran t1 forces. Hydras and lings are better than zealots and dragoons, protoss needs hts, reavers and even sairs for scouting Zealots and dragoons are stronger than terran t1 (this one is tricky though, but non-the-less). The bulk of protoss army is zeal goon, and to fight that terran needs factory units. See, it's all about the initial t1 units.
Zealot+dragoon isn't really the reason why terrans mech against protoss.
This guy probably said verbatum what tinyland said in his "meta" video. What he forgot to say was that reavers and storm make short work of mnm which is why terran mechs to avoid that
On September 11 2017 14:47 TT1 wrote: I'm sure everyone can agree that the best player of each race is Flash, JD and Bisu. That said, if you look at their individual accomplishments it's clear that Bisu is way behind JD and Flash.
Are really having this "all the bonjwas were terran" conversation again?
On September 11 2017 14:47 TT1 wrote: I'm sure everyone can agree that the best player of each race is Flash, JD and Bisu. That said, if you look at their individual accomplishments it's clear that Bisu is way behind JD and Flash.
Are really having this "all the bonjwas were terran" conversation again?
Just a starting point for the discussion. OP is an attempt to provide facts/data.
On September 12 2017 04:37 Kare wrote: If you are going to discuss game balance, you have to look at it at this present time. Bringing in nada, boxer, iloveoov etc makes no sense, because if we sent larva, effort, jaedong back in time to play those guys with the knowledge they have of the game now, they would win every single game so easily it wouldn't even be funny to watch. So why would you even bring those days up? People were very far away from the highest skill ceiling back then, no point in bringing it up in balance talks.
Is the highest skill ceiling still far away? Maybe, maybe not.. But it has never been higher than now, so that's what we have to work with, unless someone knows a way to travel to the future.
Now, as for the hinting at Terran being too strong, I think it's better to look at the players, rather than their race. My personal opinion is that Flash is just so good, that he makes Terran seem stronger than it actually is, and I actually predict that if Flash played Protoss or Zerg, he would make them seem even stronger than he makes Terran seem now. Just look at a matchup where balance is not an issue, TvT. Flash is absolutely crushing every Terran on the planet, yeah Last can take him out online sometimes, but when it really matters, he is just way too strong. Flash crushed the second best Terran(Last) in the previous ASL 3-0. Whenever he plays the matchup without balance as an issue, he dominates all others of the same race, and have do so for a very very long time. He had the highest win streak with 22 wins in TvT in a row.
Now the question is, does Bisu dominate in PvP? Does Larva(who beats flash regularly online in real macro games), dominate in ZvZ? No, Larva get's trashed in ZvZ all the time, but somehow he is able to even sometimes dominate Flash in ZvT, so I guess Terran is too strong?
I could go on forever, but this is how I feel atleast..
The washed up Stork even took out Last(the second best Terran in the world) in ASL today, after Last was more greedy than scrooge mcduck and got away with it, Stork suicided his speed shuttle with reaver, got crushed by the timing push, lost 2 bases, and still ended up winning the game with 200/200 supply compared to Last's 100.
Does Bisu dominate PvP? Have you seen his PvP when he streams? Yes he does, look at his post KeSPA era winrate:
And you're actually talking about a BO1 group stage match? sSak beat Stork in a game where Stork had a huge econ lead AND he also beat Last, is sSak considered the 2nd best Terran in the world? We're talking about championship winning players/bonjwas that have dominated the game throughout the history of BW.. not just a single BO1 group stage match.
Okay using Bisu as an example was bad since he actually is the best protoss and I think of him as the flash of protoss and very close to flash's level of play. I should have used some of the other top players instead. It is strange that he hasn't won more. Bisu is the only example I can think of in all of starcraft that actually "supports" the P underpowered theory. Honestly, I don't think that is the case at all, my own opinion on the fact that he hasn't won more, is because he is very inconsistent. When Bisu plays at his max level, he is more impressive than Flash's max level, but the problem is that Flash is almost always close or on max level, while Bisu is either on that God tier level, or he is just playing like a standard korean pro. That is a very very bad thing for winning tournaments.
When it comes to the BO1 thing, I didn't watch the sSak vs Stork game, so can't comment on that. sSak vs Last, I never said that sSak couldn't beat Last, since that was a normal TvT where he ended up going for a sort of all in doom drop, and it worked, so what? I only used the example of Last vs Stork, because it showcases the imbalance in PvT, not in a million years would a terran win vs a protoss in that match, if the tables had been turned on number of mistakes/damage taken.
On September 12 2017 04:37 Kare wrote: If you are going to discuss game balance, you have to look at it at this present time. Bringing in nada, boxer, iloveoov etc makes no sense, because if we sent larva, effort, jaedong back in time to play those guys with the knowledge they have of the game now, they would win every single game so easily it wouldn't even be funny to watch. So why would you even bring those days up? People were very far away from the highest skill ceiling back then, no point in bringing it up in balance talks.
Is the highest skill ceiling still far away? Maybe, maybe not.. But it has never been higher than now, so that's what we have to work with, unless someone knows a way to travel to the future.
Now, as for the hinting at Terran being too strong, I think it's better to look at the players, rather than their race. My personal opinion is that Flash is just so good, that he makes Terran seem stronger than it actually is, and I actually predict that if Flash played Protoss or Zerg, he would make them seem even stronger than he makes Terran seem now. Just look at a matchup where balance is not an issue, TvT. Flash is absolutely crushing every Terran on the planet, yeah Last can take him out online sometimes, but when it really matters, he is just way too strong. Flash crushed the second best Terran(Last) in the previous ASL 3-0. Whenever he plays the matchup without balance as an issue, he dominates all others of the same race, and have do so for a very very long time. He had the highest win streak with 22 wins in TvT in a row.
Now the question is, does Bisu dominate in PvP? Does Larva(who beats flash regularly online in real macro games), dominate in ZvZ? No, Larva get's trashed in ZvZ all the time, but somehow he is able to even sometimes dominate Flash in ZvT, so I guess Terran is too strong?
I could go on forever, but this is how I feel atleast..
The washed up Stork even took out Last(the second best Terran in the world) in ASL today, after Last was more greedy than scrooge mcduck and got away with it, Stork suicided his speed shuttle with reaver, got crushed by the timing push, lost 2 bases, and still ended up winning the game with 200/200 supply compared to Last's 100.
Does Bisu dominate PvP? Have you seen his PvP when he streams? Yes he does, look at his post KeSPA era winrate:
And you're actually talking about a BO1 group stage match? sSak beat Stork in a game where Stork had a huge econ lead AND he also beat Last, is sSak considered the 2nd best Terran in the world? We're talking about championship winning players/bonjwas that have dominated the game throughout the history of BW.. not just a single BO1 group stage match.
Okay using Bisu as an example was bad since he actually is the best protoss and I think of him as the flash of protoss and very close to flash's level of play. I should have used some of the other top players instead. It is strange that he hasn't won more. Bisu is the only example I can think of in all of starcraft that actually "supports" the P underpowered theory. Honestly, I don't think that is the case at all, my own opinion on the fact that he hasn't won more, is because he is very inconsistent. When Bisu plays at his max level, he is more impressive than Flash's max level, but the problem is that Flash is almost always close or on max level, while Bisu is either on that God tier level, or he is just playing like a standard korean pro. That is a very very bad thing for winning tournaments.
When it comes to the BO1 thing, I didn't watch the sSak vs Stork game, so can't comment on that. sSak vs Last, I never said that sSak couldn't beat Last, since that was a normal TvT where he ended up going for a sort of all in doom drop, and it worked, so what? I only used the example of Last vs Stork, because it showcases the imbalance in PvT, not in a million years would a terran win vs a protoss in that match, if the tables had been turned on number of mistakes/damage taken.
What? Your second paragraph makes no sense to me. Are you saying that if Last didnt make those mistakes that Stork still would have won 99% of the time?
On September 12 2017 04:37 Kare wrote: If you are going to discuss game balance, you have to look at it at this present time. Bringing in nada, boxer, iloveoov etc makes no sense, because if we sent larva, effort, jaedong back in time to play those guys with the knowledge they have of the game now, they would win every single game so easily it wouldn't even be funny to watch. So why would you even bring those days up? People were very far away from the highest skill ceiling back then, no point in bringing it up in balance talks.
Is the highest skill ceiling still far away? Maybe, maybe not.. But it has never been higher than now, so that's what we have to work with, unless someone knows a way to travel to the future.
Now, as for the hinting at Terran being too strong, I think it's better to look at the players, rather than their race. My personal opinion is that Flash is just so good, that he makes Terran seem stronger than it actually is, and I actually predict that if Flash played Protoss or Zerg, he would make them seem even stronger than he makes Terran seem now. Just look at a matchup where balance is not an issue, TvT. Flash is absolutely crushing every Terran on the planet, yeah Last can take him out online sometimes, but when it really matters, he is just way too strong. Flash crushed the second best Terran(Last) in the previous ASL 3-0. Whenever he plays the matchup without balance as an issue, he dominates all others of the same race, and have do so for a very very long time. He had the highest win streak with 22 wins in TvT in a row.
Now the question is, does Bisu dominate in PvP? Does Larva(who beats flash regularly online in real macro games), dominate in ZvZ? No, Larva get's trashed in ZvZ all the time, but somehow he is able to even sometimes dominate Flash in ZvT, so I guess Terran is too strong?
I could go on forever, but this is how I feel atleast..
The washed up Stork even took out Last(the second best Terran in the world) in ASL today, after Last was more greedy than scrooge mcduck and got away with it, Stork suicided his speed shuttle with reaver, got crushed by the timing push, lost 2 bases, and still ended up winning the game with 200/200 supply compared to Last's 100.
Does Bisu dominate PvP? Have you seen his PvP when he streams? Yes he does, look at his post KeSPA era winrate:
And you're actually talking about a BO1 group stage match? sSak beat Stork in a game where Stork had a huge econ lead AND he also beat Last, is sSak considered the 2nd best Terran in the world? We're talking about championship winning players/bonjwas that have dominated the game throughout the history of BW.. not just a single BO1 group stage match.
Okay using Bisu as an example was bad since he actually is the best protoss and I think of him as the flash of protoss and very close to flash's level of play. It is strange that he hasn't won more. Bisu is the only example I can think of in all of starcraft that actually "supports" the P underpowered theory. Honestly, I don't think that is the case at all, my own opinion on the fact that he hasn't won more, is because he is very inconsistent. When Bisu plays at his max level, he is more impressive than Flash's max level, but the problem is that Flash is almost always close or on max level, while Bisu is either on that God tier level, or he is just playing like a standard korean pro.
When it comes to the BO1 thing, I didn't watch the sSak vs Stork game, so can't comment on that. sSak vs Last, I never said that sSak couldn't beat Last, since that was a normal TvT where he ended up going for a sort of all in doom drop, and it worked, so what? I only used the example of Last vs Stork, because it showcases the imbalance in PvT, not in a million years would a terran win vs a protoss in that match, if the tables had been turned on number of mistakes/damage taken.
I actually don't think Last played that match smartly at all, let's analyze what happened. Last pushes out earlier than usual and takes out 2 expansions (to punish Stork's failed reaver tech). That's great, he's sitting on 3 bases vs 2 bases and Stork is forced to long distance mine while remaking his expos. In turn Last loses his tank count (and he didn't trade well with them when Stork dropped on them at his 3rd) which delays him from re-pushing out again.
So what does Last do with his eco advantage to capitalize on the fact that Stork is on 2 bases and has to get his eco back up again? Well nothing, he sits in his base until both players are maxed out and Stork has his expos up again. He didn't even try to push his lead by getting 2-1 to setup for his following push (and everyone knows the strength of Terran mech is upgrades).
When he does decide to attack he pushes out with 1-0 upgrades at a time where he should have easily been 2-1, that's the edge he should have gained from the eco advantage he had over Stork. So the end result of Last's initial push when he took out 2 expansions is this: he moves out again with a maxed out army and 1-0 upgrades (on 3 bases) vs a maxed Protoss who's taking his 5th.. which isn't a good spot for Terran. Then this happened:
Had Last not attacked at all and did a standard 11:30 2-1 timing he would have been in a better position than the 200/200 position he was in in that game.
I agree with most of your review of the match TT1, but it only strengthens my position. The build Last did was meant to push that early, it's basically: make tanks instead of vultures, take 3rd as quick as possible, and get to the 7 factory +1 timing attack. Stork's utter failure of the reaver and speed upgraded shuttle, only makes the timing push even stronger. Last pushes out, takes out 2 bases of stork. Storks response: counter attack with his dragoons, they don't do much at all.
My point is, how much does a terran have to do to win? Being very greedy and getting away with it, toss completely fails his speed shuttle/reaver, has nothing to defend the timing attack because of the two previous situations, ends up doing a dragoon counter attack that does very little, and loses 2 bases. Why the hell is it still possible to win in the protoss position, that's my question. As I said, a terran would never be able to get back from so many mistakes.
Last lost 9 tanks to kill the third, and killed several dragoons/zealots in the process, that is not the best trade, but it should not be the reason to lose a game.
EPT
