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On September 11 2017 17:03 FFW_Rude wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 16:35 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
JESUS TRY THE HARD LIFE OF A ZERG. WE DONT HAVE FUCKING MAP CROSSING ARCLITE CANNONS, EVERYTHING CANNOT BE REPAIRS, WE DONT HAVE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION LIKE SPIDER MINES AND WE CERTAINLY AS FUCK DONT HAVE NUCLEAR WEAPONS CAUSE ANY GAME THAT HAS THAT SUCKS LIKE COMMAND AND CONQUER 3. ALSO, WE DONT HAVE FLYING BUILDINGS OR MOTHERFUCKING DEFENSIVE STRUCTURES THAT SHOOT AIR AND GROUND AND CAN BE REPAIRED AND COST 100$ FUCKING MINERALS. OUR WORKERS DIE WHEN THE WIND BLOWS TOO HARD AND SURE AS FUCK DONT HAVE FUSION CUTTERS. WAIT? YOU HAVE GOLIATHS THAT SHOOT ACROSS THE MAP AT AIR UNITS AND CAN BE REPAIRED AND ARE CHEAP? JESUS WHO MADE THIS GAME.
JESUS I WISH I HAD 5-6 of THE ALL TIME BEST PLAYERS TO MODEL MY GAME AFTER. WAIT? WERENT THEY ALL FUCKING TERRAN? WE HAVE NADA, BOXER, OOV, FLASH, MIDAS and XELLOS ALL KICKING ASS FOR YEARS AT A TIME WHILE WE GET FUCKING FAT ASS JULY WHO SUCKS NOW, YELLOW WHO ALWAYS FUCKING SUCKED BUT NOBODY KNEW FOR A BIT AND WE FINALLY GOT SAVIOR BUT THEN THEY DRESSED HIM LIKE HITLER SO HE SUCKED AND NOW WE HAVE JAEDONG BUT THAT KID CANT FIGURE OUT THE NEW KOREAN MAPS THAT DONT MATTER. JESUS FUCK IT MUST BE NICE TO HAVE PLAYERS THAT SPAN DECADES AND DOMINATE THE ENTIRE TIME. GIMME SOME OF THAT PLEASE.
HEY WHAT ABOUT BUILDINGS DO YOU LOSE A SCV EACH TIME YOU MAKE ONE? NO. WHAT THE FUCK? WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU CAN ACTUALLY TELL THEM TO RETURN TO MINING AFTER THEY ARE DONE BUILDING? I THOUGHT THAT AUTO MINING GARBAGE WAS FOR HACKERS OR BAD GAMES. TERRAN'S CAN DO IT? FUCK THAT SOUNDS LIKE A SWEET DEAL. EACH TIME WE (zerg) HAVE TO BUILD WE TELL ONE OF OUR SACRED MINERS "HEY FUCK YOU TIME TO DIE" AND THEY DO. THEN WE GET A FUCKING BUILDING. WHICH, HALF THE TIME ISNT ENOUGH: WE HAVE TO PAY MOREE FUCKING MONEY TO GET IT TO DO SOME SHIT LIKE DICK THE GROUND OR SPRAY PISS IN THE AIR.
WHEN YOU SELECT RANDOM, WHAT GAME SCREEN DO YOU GET IN BETWEEN? ANY GUESSERS? THAT'S RIGHT: TERRAN. EVEN THE FUCKING GAME KNOWS WHAT YOU SHOULD OBVIOUSLY HAVE CHOSEN WHEN YOU FORGOT TO SELECT TERRAN AND GOT RANDOM. FUCKING INSANE BIAS. HAHAHAHAHA InControl would be proud
I wanted to report that aggressive shit post - but it seems being part of the staff makes it impossible to get reported, and you get a free ticket to swear and "scream"...
I had something else to contribute - but I forgot after reading that post.
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On September 11 2017 20:06 niteReloaded wrote:
Does anyone really believe this game is perfectly balanced?
If yes, does anyone believe that each race will stay completely balanced regardless of how high the mechanical skill of the players becomes?
Obviously the answer(s) are NO.
Terran is slightly OP. (Even if it's 2-3%)
Do we wanna mess with the balance and heritage (sacredness) of a 20 years old game? I'm not sure.
P.S. Terran is hardest on low levels, so, being slightly OP on top level is like a pat on the back for sticking with the hardest race thru all those levels and getting cheesed the fuck out in various ways.
If BW was re-balanced in a way that all races were balanced on TOP level - no new player would choose Terran imo, as suddenly it's even harder on lower levels. It's way to hard to perfect to come to the top level, only to be perfectly balanced with others.
Personally i think Zerg is by far the hardest race at every skill level (definitely in macro games), just because of how hard it is to manage your army and your production facilities (hatcheries) are all over the map. Zerg's hotkeys are severely taxed, way more than T and P.
Early game PvZ is tough for Toss, middgame PvZ is tough for Z, lategame PvZ is about even. Reavers are great but so is perma damage plague (assuming both players are high level players and the zerg can perfectly control his lategame army, if not Toss has the advantage). That said how many PvZ's get to that point? Every PvZ has an early game stage tho  .
I don't have in depth knowledge of ZvT but statisically Zerg's been having a really tough time in modern TvZ's (+1 5 rax into mech).
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We were playing a completely different game in 2003, so to factor games from so long ago to support an argument for inherent imbalance doesn't really make sense to me. Boxer played TvZ in 2001 completely differently (the "I will never expand until my main minerals run out and then float my CC to my natural" style) to Flash in 2012, they may as well have been playing different races. If someone discovered Savior's 3 hatch muta build that rendered all Boxer's 1 base shenanigans useless earlier, it looks completely different. And then you have all the Protoss suffering pre-Bisu and so on.
Not that I don't agree that they're balance issues, but I think citing bonjwas from times when we didn't have muta micro, pylon walls at expansions and so on doesn't really support an argument for inherent balance in 2017 at all. As I said, BW was a completely different game back then.
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I think : medics heal too fast, tanks cost too little supply, vultures kill workers too quickly. Could make vultures deal.. 18 dmg? or 16? (3 hits to lings) Or increase hp of workers a little?^^ wouldnt be bad imo. DTs probably still should kill workers in one hit.. however having no notification is "sagi" ^^ so maybe not^^ actually I think they don't need to kill workers in one hit. They only feel weak in midgame, when detected, but what can you do. Some more hp or shield?
also I think : hydras are too weak vs M&M (because of medics) and perhaps against mutalisks. I think Mutalisks should probably be medium size.
I think reavers also kill workers too quickly (and marines), I would say reduce their aoe size and def make the scarab more reliable would be good imo.. too random. If I would say anything else is too strong with P, maybe storm damage is too fast, idk. Make it last longer and same dmg or smtg. It kills workers too quickly too, and M&M.
Qikz : risking a balance patch : I don't know. I think the game can be improved for sure, but of course doing it right is hard and there is a risk of not quite doing it right. Since its a creative thing there are many ways to do it, so it's hard to agree. It requires the designers to have strong understanding and to make strong coherent choices that really improve the game as a whole. Also problem of replays that stop working, which can be fixed if the game will load stuff from previous patch after recognizing replay version.
also I think Battlecruiser could use a dmg increase.. guardians and devourers smtg? more hp for guardians? a little more dmg for devourers? and scouts cheaper at least or more ground dmg or.. free sight upgrade..
I think swarm is too invincible, I would say maybe change it to increase armor of units or smtg.
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nada is the clear #1 in my books, and i speak as someone who isn't particularly a fan of his.
there was a gap in my period of time watching of not seeing very many bisu games. i'd ended up watching for free or leta more than i would bisu's games, which compels me as much as another person talking about july to say that bisu is overrated. who was that guy on estro with the weirdest builds? that guy was underrated for gameplay, lol.
see how opinions like these can be quite trashy?
but just considering meaningful impact on the game, i'd put july on par with bisu. that is a player i became a fan of (as a protoss player) because of his entire game-style.
so to me, the greatest players of all time, after the most accomplished of players, are the players who produced games that had such an amazing impact on the viewer.
you could create a long list of best players of all time to then leave ambiguous ordering, and everyone would re-arrange it in their own way even if the idea were to go purely off of data.
there will be a good number of players with similar achievements, but their pathway to that success was all quite different. without a double elimination bracket, we see two stories unfold to its fullest.
were there different draws and the tiniest little differences in some of the games, a career could have changed at the drop of the hat.
invariably, the game (inside and outside of it) is just about incomplete information.
just be glad that players today want to continue beating each other up at the highest level, and we're able to think back to all the good games we've seen and learned from since the earlier 2000's.
OP? south koreans are OP for being able to take this game (and most other games) so incredibly seriously.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
Honestly, all this talk of people wanting balance patches worries the hell out of me.
Why risk everything that has been built over the past 10 years when there's no real actual evidence that there's any imbalance at all.
Claiming that map balance has only been to counteract Terran. That's a blatant lie. There's been maps that were removed and changed due to Zerg and Protoss being too strong also.
Claiming the top 10 are the epitomy of balance is wrong also. You should look at all the progamers across the board and base balance on that. There's a lot more Terran progamers for instance due to how popular people like BoxeR, Nada and Oov were.
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It feels like the balance discussion is either people subjectively discussing what they feel is op with out anyone even close to be playing at the level where it starts to matter. (personal opinion: if there is any imbalance at foreigner level it's more likely to be prosagi).
Or hobby statisticians discussing a complex field where professors would have a hard time finding a consensus on a right method to prove tesagi.
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i think it matters at all levels above beginner..
but its true what you said Qikz, looking only at the top progamers is not very.. not the statistics anyway. What happens in the game, how it happens, that's where you can see smtg, not in the statistics at the very top. You could have a game with 3 very well balanced races, but the 3 very best players are all of one race, and make a wrong assomption that this race is OP.
for me when I play the game or watch, I see things that feel OP, and things that feel weak. I think if they were tuned around, the game would be better, more fun, more fair, more skill even. But I'm not really asking for a balance patch because, I don't see ppl agreeing on anything o_o?
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
One issue as well, is you're using statistics based on the fact Flash for instance beat 10 no name Protoss players in proleague which will have skewed the balance statistics a lot.
A better metric would be to look at Flash vs Jaedong back then or Flash vs Stork/Bisu and looking at the winrate. They're the best players from each race. You then need to look at what maps those were actually played on.
It's why map statistics are so flawed, because it never takes into account the ELO of the players who were actually playing.
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of course some things feel OP, there are meant to be power spikes to be built around.
if you aren't feeling seriously outmatched sometimes, or feel that you have all the solutions, that in itself is a hallmark of an uninteresting and imbalanced game.
there are quite a few ways to separate or express yourself differently from other players of the same race. those are options that can be rated to be more or less effective than each other. i feel like that's what you're describing.
people don't agree on anything because people in majority are self-serving and are not highest tier players.
i've been playing this game for how long, and then stop playing for 5 years and come back to understand that i can't do some of the most basic builds straight off the bat.
no matter how accustomed to a game you are, it's natural to just forget details about even the things you are most passionate about.
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i'm severely opposed to any balance change to the game. Watching Larva wrecking the shit out of Last and Flash in some games (i think its quite close to 50% now) is something extremely magical. Please let this magic keep happening.
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On September 11 2017 21:21 Qikz wrote:
One issue as well, is you're using statistics based on the fact Flash for instance beat 10 no name Protoss players in proleague which will have skewed the balance statistics a lot.
A better metric would be to look at Flash vs Jaedong back then or Flash vs Stork/Bisu and looking at the winrate. They're the best players from each race. You then need to look at what maps those were actually played on.
It's why map statistics are so flawed, because it never takes into account the ELO of the players who were actually playing.
We're not tho.. we're mainly comparing major championships won by players in different eras. Proleague games are bo1's on set maps, make's for a lot of variance.
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United States10148 Posts
On September 11 2017 16:47 Bakuryu wrote:
not this stupid Tinyland video again. why are people always posting that video, everybody seen it 10 times by now.
Tinyland just used a clickbait video title and goes like "this shit is real", while the pros are joking and orchestrating this "debate", just look at sea's outfit and the way he is similing.
i already explained how Tinyland/the korean community calling tesagi/gundam was 100% wrong in his other video just by simply analysing the game, because Light did 3 out of 3 things correct while jaedong did about 0-1 out of 3 things right.
tinyland doesnt know much about the game so i dont blame him.
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On September 11 2017 20:07 sCuMBaG wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 17:03 FFW_Rude wrote:On September 11 2017 16:35 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
JESUS TRY THE HARD LIFE OF A ZERG. WE DONT HAVE FUCKING MAP CROSSING ARCLITE CANNONS, EVERYTHING CANNOT BE REPAIRS, WE DONT HAVE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION LIKE SPIDER MINES AND WE CERTAINLY AS FUCK DONT HAVE NUCLEAR WEAPONS CAUSE ANY GAME THAT HAS THAT SUCKS LIKE COMMAND AND CONQUER 3. ALSO, WE DONT HAVE FLYING BUILDINGS OR MOTHERFUCKING DEFENSIVE STRUCTURES THAT SHOOT AIR AND GROUND AND CAN BE REPAIRED AND COST 100$ FUCKING MINERALS. OUR WORKERS DIE WHEN THE WIND BLOWS TOO HARD AND SURE AS FUCK DONT HAVE FUSION CUTTERS. WAIT? YOU HAVE GOLIATHS THAT SHOOT ACROSS THE MAP AT AIR UNITS AND CAN BE REPAIRED AND ARE CHEAP? JESUS WHO MADE THIS GAME.
JESUS I WISH I HAD 5-6 of THE ALL TIME BEST PLAYERS TO MODEL MY GAME AFTER. WAIT? WERENT THEY ALL FUCKING TERRAN? WE HAVE NADA, BOXER, OOV, FLASH, MIDAS and XELLOS ALL KICKING ASS FOR YEARS AT A TIME WHILE WE GET FUCKING FAT ASS JULY WHO SUCKS NOW, YELLOW WHO ALWAYS FUCKING SUCKED BUT NOBODY KNEW FOR A BIT AND WE FINALLY GOT SAVIOR BUT THEN THEY DRESSED HIM LIKE HITLER SO HE SUCKED AND NOW WE HAVE JAEDONG BUT THAT KID CANT FIGURE OUT THE NEW KOREAN MAPS THAT DONT MATTER. JESUS FUCK IT MUST BE NICE TO HAVE PLAYERS THAT SPAN DECADES AND DOMINATE THE ENTIRE TIME. GIMME SOME OF THAT PLEASE.
HEY WHAT ABOUT BUILDINGS DO YOU LOSE A SCV EACH TIME YOU MAKE ONE? NO. WHAT THE FUCK? WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU CAN ACTUALLY TELL THEM TO RETURN TO MINING AFTER THEY ARE DONE BUILDING? I THOUGHT THAT AUTO MINING GARBAGE WAS FOR HACKERS OR BAD GAMES. TERRAN'S CAN DO IT? FUCK THAT SOUNDS LIKE A SWEET DEAL. EACH TIME WE (zerg) HAVE TO BUILD WE TELL ONE OF OUR SACRED MINERS "HEY FUCK YOU TIME TO DIE" AND THEY DO. THEN WE GET A FUCKING BUILDING. WHICH, HALF THE TIME ISNT ENOUGH: WE HAVE TO PAY MOREE FUCKING MONEY TO GET IT TO DO SOME SHIT LIKE DICK THE GROUND OR SPRAY PISS IN THE AIR.
WHEN YOU SELECT RANDOM, WHAT GAME SCREEN DO YOU GET IN BETWEEN? ANY GUESSERS? THAT'S RIGHT: TERRAN. EVEN THE FUCKING GAME KNOWS WHAT YOU SHOULD OBVIOUSLY HAVE CHOSEN WHEN YOU FORGOT TO SELECT TERRAN AND GOT RANDOM. FUCKING INSANE BIAS. HAHAHAHAHA InControl would be proud I wanted to report that aggressive shit post - but it seems being part of the staff makes it impossible to get reported, and you get a free ticket to swear and "scream"... I had something else to contribute - but I forgot after reading that post. It's a reference to a pretty infamous post made years ago by InControl. It's topical enough and funny.
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On September 11 2017 15:30 reincremate wrote:
I think it's because Protoss is the easy race, so most really skilled players will pick Terran and Zerg to challenge themselves.
Boxer could have won like 12 OSLs if he played Protoss, but he was like "yo this is too reasy, I'm going to play the massively hard race instead to give everyone else a chance" and then all these other high-skill players started doing the same with Terran and Zerg.
This is a really naive way to look at things.
In pretty much any competitive avenue the best want to be the best. They will pick the option that gives them the greatest chance to win. This is human nature. The idea that people pick the worst choice to "challenge" themselves is nonsense and shows a lot of anti-Protoss bias.
People don't pick Terran to "challenge" themselves, they pick it because it has the greatest room for mechanical (and probably strategic) improvement and therefore the highest skill ceiling. Combine the mechanical and strategic potential of the race and the cultural popularity (with several of the early greats being Terran e.g. Boxer, Oov, NaDa), and there's a clear reason that 1) Terran is the most popular professional race and 2) the greatest players have all played Terran.
Protoss has always been known as "easiest to learn, hardest to master". Protoss mechanics leave the race more limited tactically than Terran, and as you continue to increase the mechanical and strategic skill of players, there's only so much more innovation that can go into the race compared to Terran.
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I think you have to look at it from this perspective,
Protoss vs Terran is entirely reliant on you getting the jump on the Terran player as Protoss (assuming equal macro from both players). That applies whether it be DT, Reaver, Arbiters or stopping a push. Based on that fact alone, so long as the map allows Terran to be safe without being punished economically (even if it takes a high level of skill to be safe), the Terran player can guarantee a win against the Protoss player with a perfect game, whereas the Protoss player cannot.
Now, what you can argue is that's a map issue or that this level of skill is unattainable, but if it's almost attainable, then the Protoss player is reliant on a certain degree of luck?
And if it is a map issue, can you make a map where the Protoss player can exploit Terran without it being unwinnable for Terran?
There's no question it's imbalanced, it's just a question of what is imbalanced and if it can be fixed. Is it the maps? Is it the Early Game? Mid Game? Late Game? Skill cap? There are a lot of factors and you wouldn't want to fix the wrong one.
Personally, I think Gateway units should have a late game upgrade to reduce cost because they are far inferior late game to Terran and Zerg base tech (which both have upgrades to improve their base units), but I'm not sure if that's really a problem at the top level and I'm not educated enough in the game to propose an alternate solution.
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On September 11 2017 22:05 Eywa- wrote:Personally, I think Gateway units should have a late game upgrade to reduce cost because they are far inferior late game to Terran and Zerg base tech (which both have upgrades to improve their base units), but I'm not sure if that's really a problem at the top level and I'm not educated enough in the game to propose an alternate solution.
I think this sounds like an over engineered SC2 type solution.
Not that I'm actually in favor of implementing any balance changes (because it would break 16 years of continuity and have unforeseen consequences), but I would like to see top players try a custom map where the underused, interactive abilities are buffed into existence but not into dominance.
I would begin by making a few abilities pre-researched such as hallucination and burrow, and removing the Covert Ops add-on (science facility would hold all its functions by default). Mind Control could be a little bit cheaper, but it kinda needs to suck in order not to break the game.
I might even nerf or remove uninteractive abilities like lockdown and maelstrom to compensate for the increased importance of dark archons and ghosts. If burrow turns out to be too strong in ZvP, I might lower the cost/research time of psionic storm to help combat hydra all-ins.
Of course this would just be for fun and I do not actually think this should be in a patch as it would probably wreck the game. At the end of the day I would just like to see some more innovative strategies involving hallucination, burrow and nukes.
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I personally believe that the equilibrium between the three races constantly changes depending on the level of the game. The state of the balance found at amateur level is not the same for the state of balance found at a semi-professional level, and it is ever changing for various tiers of professionals also. I also have the opinion based on viewing team melee games, that the state of balance found in games displaying the highest possible level of human play, and games showing superhuman levels of play are vastly different also. So the answer to the racial imbalance, which invariably exists at every level at least to some degree, is to "get better".
However, it would be foolish to argue against the fact that the terran race found the greatest success found at professional level of play, with the sample size ranging from the top one hundred to two hundred players for any given era. This is a fact not only going by the number of championship titles, but individual league attendance rates, and ProLeague win rates. Although the imbalance may not be large, and it is a stupid idea to think that numbers taken from the entire spectrum of professional Brood War games is representative of any single era, it is equally stupid to say that the terran race did not find greater success than the other two races if you look at things from a historical context.
The reason for this may be:
1) There are more terran players to start with, meaning that there is a greater pool of talent to choose from.
Disagree: Protoss players have the greatest overall player pool. I am not certain about the exact number of semi-professionals (amateur players who were good enough to win the Courage Tournament, but had yet to be drafted into a professional team), but I'm pretty sure that the number of semi-professional protoss players were pretty respectable. I remember ZeuS (ex-coach of OGN Sparkyz) once saying that his team didn't bother to chase after semi-professional protoss players because semi-professionals of the other two races were more valuable even if they were objectively worse at the time.
2) There is an inherent imbalance with the power level of the terran race being in sync with overall aptitude for the game.
Disagree: If that was the case the terran race would be stomping the other two races even more so when streamers gather around to play team melee. Turns out protoss is the strongest race when played under a team melee setting. I do not have any good evidence for this, but go to any stream and ask streamers with extensive team melee experience which race is best suited for team melee, I bet you the answer would be protoss every single time. Superhuman multi-tasking rewards protoss far more than it rewards the terran race.
3) Flash is overpowered and is skewing all the statistics:
Disagree: People complaining about the terran race started long before Flash even made his debut. He just happens to be at the epicentre for all this discussion going on currently, not only because he is the best player, who also happens to be a terran player, like a lot of players who dominated the scene for prolonged periods of time. There's been similar discussions involving NaDa, and iloveoov also.
4) Other races just haven't found the appropriate break-through that the terran race has found:
Sort of agree: Statistics for the zerg race in general soared after the mutalisk stacking micro-management, and this new discovery was so powerful that maps that failed to account for the power of the mutalisk stacking micro-management were immediately branded as god-awful maps. Before the optimization of early game builds, and the discovery of late-mech, the zerg race had temporarily displaced the terran race as the most broken race out of the three. Now we're back to square one.
5) Terran race is the strongest race at the professional level:
Sort of agree: The imbalance may not be huge, but digging up obscure reasons to why this game is absolutely perfectly balanced at the professional level seems kind of dishonest to me. Games are hard to balance. Maps are hard to balance. People have been fine tuning balance at professional level of play for over a decade, and the results have been pretty good in general, but balance has never been quite perfect even when there were professional map makers working in conjunction with professional teams and players, and since the game is ever changing, maps that were considered really well balanced back then aren't always considered balanced now. It's a constant struggle, but it has never been bad enough for people to seriously ask for a new patch, since, let's be frank, the odds of patch fucking the balance up even more is a more likely outcome than magically solving the delicate issue of balance between the three races that has been worked on continuously on the same patch from every possible side for nearly twenty years.
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If you look at the current Global ladder standing, it seems clear that Terran has some kind of advantage, at least in ladder play. Or is it because in korea there are just a lot more terran players than other races?
There could be other reasons than Tesagi to this but in my personal opinion there is some truth to Tesagi
TOP 20 : 15 Terrans, 3 Zergs, 2 Protosses
source : https://starlog.gg/en/leaderboard
1 Korea `.`;; 3188 terran 197 76 3
2 Korea organ[[[ 3153 terran 196 104 0
3 Korea vBisuv 3128 protoss 136 49 1
4 U.S. East lllillil 3098 terran 109 19 0
5 Korea By.SnOw1 3083 protoss 195 95 0
6 Korea moolgogi^^ 3073 terran 110 41 0
7 Korea wGm.Shine 3069 zerg 200 122 1
8 U.S. West Scan 3061 terran 84 16 0
9 U.S. West lllllilli 3027 terran 67 11 0
10 Korea IlIIlllIlIlIII 3016 terran 91 16 0
11 Korea SKT_Pantasy 3013 terran 93 30 0
12 Korea Bright[KaL] 3011 terran 105 29 2
13 Korea inguh^^ 2995 terran 87 28 0
14 Korea moksaeggi 2986 terran 213 130 0
15 Korea 205DA 2982 terran 81 13 0
16 Korea IIIlllllIIIIIIl 2979 terran 75 22 0
17 Korea nocopyright 2961 terran 92 25 0
18 Korea mae=99 2945 zerg 88 28 0
19 Korea masc 2938 zerg 174 97 2
20 Korea skehahffj0 2922 terran 152 69 2
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