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On September 16 2017 14:07 Luddite wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2017 14:00 tomatriedes wrote:On September 15 2017 15:37 Qikz wrote:On September 15 2017 14:11 tomatriedes wrote:
The game was more balanced before mech switch became so popular and perfected. Rather than nerfing terran units I would like to see a small energy buff to queens to make them more efficient. Watch Larva and ZerO man. Queens are plenty efficient already. One reason this is is watch Flash's video on the mech switch where he says you basically want only tanks. This means queens have no counter in the terran army for the most part. I never said queens are of no use, just that tweaking them would help with balance. Would be nice if mass queen broodlings were useful for us regular folks, instead of being so difficult that only top pros could use them.
Top progamers indeed used them, in a grand total of 2 or 3 games at most in all of BW history. As I said earlier, queens in ZvT are nice, but the fad died as soon as it saw use. Terrans just spammed turrets and added a one or two valks to the late mech+SV army. Then all investment in mineral, gas, and time to accumulate energy for the zergs are completely nullified - resources that could be put to better use by getting Ultras and Defilers.
To be honest, queens might have even found more use in D level ICCup ZvT where are just having fun playing the game and not really minding the perfect BO or strat win. If I were playing zerg against a D or E level terran, I'd put queens in play 100% of the time the game reaches late lair tech.
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On September 15 2017 16:41 _Animus_ wrote:
Well in pvz and pvt ive seen alot of pro players lose to bunker rush.
How can someone lose to a bunker rush in PvZ?
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On September 16 2017 16:54 ninazerg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2017 16:41 _Animus_ wrote:
Well in pvz and pvt ive seen alot of pro players lose to bunker rush. How can someone lose to a bunker rush in PvZ?
It's the new meta
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On September 16 2017 15:59 Twinkle Toes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2017 14:07 Luddite wrote:On September 16 2017 14:00 tomatriedes wrote:On September 15 2017 15:37 Qikz wrote:On September 15 2017 14:11 tomatriedes wrote:
The game was more balanced before mech switch became so popular and perfected. Rather than nerfing terran units I would like to see a small energy buff to queens to make them more efficient. Watch Larva and ZerO man. Queens are plenty efficient already. One reason this is is watch Flash's video on the mech switch where he says you basically want only tanks. This means queens have no counter in the terran army for the most part. I never said queens are of no use, just that tweaking them would help with balance. Would be nice if mass queen broodlings were useful for us regular folks, instead of being so difficult that only top pros could use them. Top progamers indeed used them, in a grand total of 2 or 3 games at most in all of BW history. As I said earlier, queens in ZvT are nice, but the fad died as soon as it saw use. Terrans just spammed turrets and added a one or two valks to the late mech+SV army. Then all investment in mineral, gas, and time to accumulate energy for the zergs are completely nullified - resources that could be put to better use by getting Ultras and Defilers. To be honest, queens might have even found more use in D level ICCup ZvT where are just having fun playing the game and not really minding the perfect BO or strat win. If I were playing zerg against a D or E level terran, I'd put queens in play 100% of the time the game reaches late lair tech.
Yeah Queens only work on D level ICCUP players like Flash and Last. /s
Seriously, just because "counters exist" doesn't mean Queens aren't viable. They are. That doesn't mean they are right for every single game or situation, but they have use in high level ZvT.
It's not fair to say "look at BW's history, how few games Queens are used" -- well they are used now, get used to it.
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On September 16 2017 15:59 Twinkle Toes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2017 14:07 Luddite wrote:On September 16 2017 14:00 tomatriedes wrote:On September 15 2017 15:37 Qikz wrote:On September 15 2017 14:11 tomatriedes wrote:
The game was more balanced before mech switch became so popular and perfected. Rather than nerfing terran units I would like to see a small energy buff to queens to make them more efficient. Watch Larva and ZerO man. Queens are plenty efficient already. One reason this is is watch Flash's video on the mech switch where he says you basically want only tanks. This means queens have no counter in the terran army for the most part. I never said queens are of no use, just that tweaking them would help with balance. Would be nice if mass queen broodlings were useful for us regular folks, instead of being so difficult that only top pros could use them. To be honest, queens might have even found more use in D level ICCup ZvT where are just having fun playing the game and not really minding the perfect BO or strat win. If I were playing zerg against a D or E level terran, I'd put queens in play 100% of the time the game reaches late lair tech.
I, as protoss, met queens may be couple of times from the same player (zealot.hero was his name, iirc). And playing ZvT, my style is hydra ling lurker with ensnare, it's availible at t2 and overall feels fresh and fun after tonns of standart games. Of course, it's for the D-guys like myself, and, let's be honest, the majority of BW population.
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United States4883 Posts
On September 16 2017 12:17 Twinkle Toes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2017 09:36 niteReloaded wrote:
Zergs' macro is forgiving. You can fail to macro for up to 3 larvas and not lose anything of armysize. You can only get into timing dangers.
with terrans, if you fail to macro for the duration of 2 buildcycles of a tank, those 2 tanks cannot be made up for, ever. Zerg macro is more unforgiving than Terran and Protoss. From your statements, I think you don't know zerg at all. Zerg macro is all about timing. Correctly use a larva now, then you have a larva for the next timing cycle. Miss a larva now and you miss the next cycle. For P and T, miss it now and it only means that it is delayed in entering the game. For Zerg, it's literally one unit that will never be if you miss the timing. I could explain this further if it is still not clear to you.
Technically if you miss a macro cycle on Terran or Protoss, it's the same as that unit "never existing", assuming a system with a finite limit on game time and perfect macro. The only difference is you can't queue up the unit as Zerg and make your money go away, you have to build more hatcheries to get rid of excess money.
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People don't use Queens anymore, it was just something Zergs tried for a little while once ZvT gets to end game with 3-3 Tanks..They lack the punch to really stop the Terran push because you have to wait so long for Queen mana to regenerate enough to cast another Broodling, and as people said mixing in Valks deters Queens very well.
They're just not very good. I don't know why people mention "well it works at D", that's beside the point. It's an inferior strategy at every level.
Ensnare in the midgame probably has more potential, but not really worth delaying your Hive or having less gas for Hive stuff.
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On September 16 2017 17:24 NickHotS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2017 15:59 Twinkle Toes wrote:On September 16 2017 14:07 Luddite wrote:On September 16 2017 14:00 tomatriedes wrote:On September 15 2017 15:37 Qikz wrote:On September 15 2017 14:11 tomatriedes wrote:
The game was more balanced before mech switch became so popular and perfected. Rather than nerfing terran units I would like to see a small energy buff to queens to make them more efficient. Watch Larva and ZerO man. Queens are plenty efficient already. One reason this is is watch Flash's video on the mech switch where he says you basically want only tanks. This means queens have no counter in the terran army for the most part. I never said queens are of no use, just that tweaking them would help with balance. Would be nice if mass queen broodlings were useful for us regular folks, instead of being so difficult that only top pros could use them. Top progamers indeed used them, in a grand total of 2 or 3 games at most in all of BW history. As I said earlier, queens in ZvT are nice, but the fad died as soon as it saw use. Terrans just spammed turrets and added a one or two valks to the late mech+SV army. Then all investment in mineral, gas, and time to accumulate energy for the zergs are completely nullified - resources that could be put to better use by getting Ultras and Defilers. To be honest, queens might have even found more use in D level ICCup ZvT where are just having fun playing the game and not really minding the perfect BO or strat win. If I were playing zerg against a D or E level terran, I'd put queens in play 100% of the time the game reaches late lair tech. Yeah Queens only work on D level ICCUP players like Flash and Last. /s Seriously, just because "counters exist" doesn't mean Queens aren't viable. They are. That doesn't mean they are right for every single game or situation, but they have use in high level ZvT. It's not fair to say "look at BW's history, how few games Queens are used" -- well they are used now, get used to it.
Yeah you will see queens are on an upward trend on Afreeca streams. I've seen them be effective even when used less-than-optimally. I'm positive we will see more of them going forward in the ASL.
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United States10397 Posts
On September 16 2017 23:44 Espers wrote:
People don't use Queens anymore, it was just something Zergs tried for a little while once ZvT gets to end game with 3-3 Tanks..They lack the punch to really stop the Terran push because you have to wait so long for Queen mana to regenerate enough to cast another Broodling, and as people said mixing in Valks deters Queens very well.
They're just not very good. I don't know why people mention "well it works at D", that's beside the point. It's an inferior strategy at every level.
Ensnare in the midgame probably has more potential, but not really worth delaying your Hive or having less gas for Hive stuff.
bruh.. zergs have been doing it more and more vs the mech switch in zvt. what are you on lol
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On September 11 2017 15:52 Letmelose wrote:
Most number of semi-finals:
1. Jaedong: 12
2. NaDa: 11
3. Flash: 11
4. YellOw: 10
5. iloveoov: 9
6. BoxeR: 9
7. Nal_rA: 8
8. Stork: 8
9. ChoJJa: 8
10. sAviOr: 7
4 terran players, 4 zerg players, and 3 protoss players.
Incomplete. Fantasy played in 7 semifinals, just like Savior (on one MSL he was eliminated by Flash, on other MSL by JD)
Also skill and achievements of Jangbi and Fantasy before 2010 are massively underrated. Fantasy had pretty big 2008 and 2009 with 2 finals he barely lost and 1 semifinal, had at one moment 4 consecutive wins against Jaedong at his peak and had respectable PL record. He was criticized for inconsistent TvZ but to be fair - his TvZ was at the time pretty strong matchup, what is seen with his great matches against JD at the time. I would put him along with Stork for that matter.
Jangbi was considered best PvT player along with Stork, whose reputation as PvT monster was pretty badly damaged by bad final record, he also had multiple final appearances, however he was criticized for his PvZ. IMO he can be easily put along with Stork and Fantasy even with his bad PL record.
IMO the legacy of those players were massively hit by their slump in 2010. While Fantasy at last get into the semifinal of MSL, when he was barely eliminated by all-time-form Flash, Jangbi was hit by the slump so hard that he almost looked like a noob.
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i was almost baited into replying until i read all the first page's posts. don't need to anymore. everything i wanted to say has already been said.
thanks gents
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On September 16 2017 16:54 ninazerg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2017 16:41 _Animus_ wrote:
Well in pvz and pvt ive seen alot of pro players lose to bunker rush. How can someone lose to a bunker rush in PvZ?
Terran is so OP they actually have a winning match up in PvZ as well. PvZ is actually 60/40 in favor of Terran.
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United States10397 Posts
On September 17 2017 06:15 DepressionSC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2017 16:54 ninazerg wrote:On September 15 2017 16:41 _Animus_ wrote:
Well in pvz and pvt ive seen alot of pro players lose to bunker rush. How can someone lose to a bunker rush in PvZ? Terran is so OP they actually have a winning match up in PvZ as well. PvZ is actually 60/40 in favor of Terran.
TESAGI CONFIRMED
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Japan11286 Posts
Maybe zerg players get bunker rushed so much that they pick up the debris afterwards to use in PvZ. Tesagi-by-proxy confirmed
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On September 17 2017 04:54 hitthat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 15:52 Letmelose wrote:
Most number of semi-finals:
1. Jaedong: 12
2. NaDa: 11
3. Flash: 11
4. YellOw: 10
5. iloveoov: 9
6. BoxeR: 9
7. Nal_rA: 8
8. Stork: 8
9. ChoJJa: 8
10. sAviOr: 7
4 terran players, 4 zerg players, and 3 protoss players.
Incomplete. Fantasy played in 7 semifinals, just like Savior (on one MSL he was eliminated by Flash, on other MSL by JD) Also skill and achievements of Jangbi and Fantasy before 2010 are massively underrated. Fantasy had pretty big 2008 and 2009 with 2 finals he barely lost and 1 semifinal, had at one moment 4 consecutive wins against Jaedong at his peak and had respectable PL record. He was criticized for inconsistent TvZ but to be fair - his TvZ was at the time pretty strong matchup, what is seen with his great matches against JD at the time. I would put him along with Stork for that matter. Jangbi was considered best PvT player along with Stork, whose reputation as PvT monster was pretty badly damaged by bad final record, he also had multiple final appearances, however he was criticized for his PvZ. IMO he can be easily put along with Stork and Fantasy even with his bad PL record. IMO the legacy of those players were massively hit by their slump in 2010. While Fantasy at last get into the semifinal of MSL, when he was barely eliminated by all-time-form Flash, Jangbi was hit by the slump so hard that he almost looked like a noob.
If there is a tie, I will take into account their other placements to break the tie.
sAviOr accomplished more from the seven times he reached the semi-finals than any other player. That is the reason why I didn't have Bisu on that particular list either, despite the fact he also reached seven semi-finals.
As for JangBi, I actually think he was one of the most talented protoss players of all time. For the longest time, I actually thought he was the most talented in terms of sheer skill cap. There was so much hype about JangBi back in 2006 on FighterForum, that it was impossible not to think he would become a protoss bonjwa one day. The guy was said to be already one of the best players on Samsung Khan during practice, like when Stork, the protoss ace of the team and one of the best protoss-versus-protoss players in the scene at the time, played against JangBi on his first day on the team, he was soundly beaten by the wunderkid.
However, being good at the professional level requires more than that. JangBi didn't have good mental resilience, and suffered terribly from stage fright. He was one of those players who was only godlike during practice. When he didn't get the financial support he felt he deserved from the team, he literally sabotaged his professional career by refusing to practice at all. Talent aside, there's no way in hell he can be put easily alongside Stork as a competitive gamer. His highs may have been fantastic, but the lows of his career are just too significant to overlook.
Championships: Stork (1) versus JangBi (2)
Finals or above: Stork (5) versus JangBi (4)
Semi-finals or above: Stork (8) versus JangBi (5)
Quarter-finals or above: Stork (12) versus JangBi (6)
Round of sixteen or above: Stork (24) versus JangBi (8)
Yes, when JangBi felt like practicing, or things were going just right for him, he was capable of doing just as much, if not more so than Stork. But the fact of the matter is, for the vast majority of his career, he was not. Stork was the ace player of his team even if JangBi was putting forth superior results during practice, Stork was the one qualifying for all the tournaments while JangBi sulked about not being paid enough, or not keeping his composure and getting knocked out early by the most random opponents. Even TheRock had more instances of progressing to the round of sixteen than JangBi. Let that sink in for a moment.
Stork's all-time ProLeague record including the play-off stages: 191-121 (61.1%)
JangBi's all-time ProLeague record including the play-off stages: 109-106 (50.7%)
JangBi has the poorest record in the ProLeague out of all the Six Dragons. Stork is tied with Bisu for third (out of every single professional player in existence) in terms of number of ProLeague victories. Like I said, JangBi was the ultimate hot and cold player in recent years. He may have been a superior player to Stork in terms of pure gaming ability, but was terrible at converting his talent for the game into tangible results as a competitive gamer, which is what professional Brood War is all about. Winning under a competitive setting. Not winning when everything is going exactly as you wished or hoped for. Not winning during practice with nothing to push you out of your comfort zone.
JangBi is in my opinion one of the worst players of all time in terms of managing his professional career, and only showed glimpses of genius throughout his entire career. One of the best protoss players of all time when he was firing all cylinders? Definitely. Easily on the level of Stork in terms of his overall career achievements? Not so much. Perhaps it's different from a pure fan perspective. The nature of his career is so engaging, and he feels like a superlative talent. However, from a competitive stand-point, Stork was head and shoulders above JangBi, even if JangBi managed to win one more title, in my opinion. Who would you purchase out of the two if you were in charge of a professional team back then?
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On September 17 2017 03:52 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2017 23:44 Espers wrote:
People don't use Queens anymore, it was just something Zergs tried for a little while once ZvT gets to end game with 3-3 Tanks..They lack the punch to really stop the Terran push because you have to wait so long for Queen mana to regenerate enough to cast another Broodling, and as people said mixing in Valks deters Queens very well.
They're just not very good. I don't know why people mention "well it works at D", that's beside the point. It's an inferior strategy at every level.
Ensnare in the midgame probably has more potential, but not really worth delaying your Hive or having less gas for Hive stuff. bruh.. zergs have been doing it more and more vs the mech switch in zvt. what are you on lol Indeed. And they first started getting used by zero way back in like...2010? 2011? Half a decade of use is pretty long...
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While if I had to give an edge to one race on BW I'd choose Terran, the 'advantage' really doesn't represent much and I think the statistics we're all working with are more about players than about general balance.
Terran simply had the most talented guys, with the best competitive mindsets. Flash and iloveoov are/were winning machines, NaDa wasn't nearly as hardworking but is, by general consensus, the biggest genius in BW history.
My point is, if those three had all picked Protoss or Zerg, we would be having a very different conversation.
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On September 16 2017 15:59 Twinkle Toes wrote:
Top progamers indeed used them, in a grand total of 2 or 3 games at most in all of BW history. As I said earlier, queens in ZvT are nice, but the fad died as soon as it saw use. Terrans just spammed turrets and added a one or two valks to the late mech+SV army. Then all investment in mineral, gas, and time to accumulate energy for the zergs are completely nullified - resources that could be put to better use by getting Ultras and Defilers.
To be honest, queens might have even found more use in D level ICCup ZvT where are just having fun playing the game and not really minding the perfect BO or strat win. If I were playing zerg against a D or E level terran, I'd put queens in play 100% of the time the game reaches late lair tech.
On September 16 2017 23:44 Espers wrote:
People don't use Queens anymore, it was just something Zergs tried for a little while once ZvT gets to end game with 3-3 Tanks..They lack the punch to really stop the Terran push because you have to wait so long for Queen mana to regenerate enough to cast another Broodling, and as people said mixing in Valks deters Queens very well.
They're just not very good. I don't know why people mention "well it works at D", that's beside the point. It's an inferior strategy at every level.
Ensnare in the midgame probably has more potential, but not really worth delaying your Hive or having less gas for Hive stuff.
What the hell? You guys are so certain and so wrong at the same time that it's baffling. Queens have never been as used as nowadays. It's almost a necessity in split map scenarios against terrans. Jaedong can't use them, so he's going for the drops everywhere approach, but other zergs when they get to a certain time of the game, they make 12 or more queens and let it gather energy.
Ts are making valks now but it can be killed easily by scourges. It's just a matter of how good of an economy Zs have. WHen Larva gets a 3rd gas early, it's 100% certain that either he wins the game before it gets there or he'll end up making Queens. Because if he gets the 3rd fast, that snowballs and he'll et the 4th even earlier. You'll need queens late game. Sometimes he makes like two groups of queens, so he can round them.
It's a matter if they can hold the T before Queens kick in. And often enough, they can. Really hard to beat Ts late game in split map scenarios without queens or without harassing everywhere (JD approach).
We'll prolly see it on Crossing Field /FS in this ASL if we get games where both users play standard and it gets to late game ZvT.
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Are there any stats on how often zerg wins zvt, when the game gets into late game queens vs mech? My impression is that zerg loses a lot more than they win in that situation. They *can* win, but it's just such an uphill battle against a maxed out 3/3 mech army, especially once Terran fills up the map with turrets and mines.
But maybe I'm just getting the wrong idea because most of the games I've seen like that have been Larva vs. Flash or Last, and they're both godly at using huge mech armies. How does it work against other players?
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Now, my take on balance issues is the following:
What would happen to Zs before, not sure, 2007? If they had the same number of bases as the Terran? They'd get destroyed most of the time. So was there a balance patch to make terrans stronger or they simply developed strategies with the help of new maps that they can match Zerg FE and still deny Zergs the 3rd gas?
T was always the stronger race but Z and P had the advantage of expoing earlier due to better mobility and if matched, taking a 3rd way earlier than the Terran. That doesn't happen anymore. With one barrack they can bank rush both races, Zs found a way to stop it but still by losing a lot of mining time. By microing a bit far from the base 6+ Drones against ~3 scvs and the incoming marines.Against P it's almost impossible to beat if you go 12nex. Ts will send 12 scvs and bunker rush you.
It's so hard that I've seen Sea open up with a fast CC build then find Best doing a 12nexus on andromeda and still successfully bunker Rush Best. They do Barrack/Depot - Bunker Rush into CC against Zergs quite consistently too.
I've written all this to say: changing anything about the units will change the late game's meta so hard that its gonna be a mess. We all knew since after our first week playing BW that Ts were supposedly weaker early game and stronger late in the game. So, if we gotta do something I feel Blizzard should start with messing with the bunker's HP. Reduce it to not sure how much. It'd need to be tested but that'd bring back the scenarios where P and Z(more eco friendly FE) could safely expo faster than T without being bunker rushed and therefore would end all this BS about game imbalance.
"Oh, but that would take out the bunker rush!!!". Nope. Thats why I didn't mention anything about making it more expensive. If you wanna bunker rush then go for BBS like in the old days. Going 1barrack rush and transitioning into a fast CC is too easy for the Ts.
200-250HP would do it? Not sure.
So yeh, that's my humble yet 'elitist' take on this supposedly imbalance issue. Don't want blizzard touching units because once they start, they may make things much worse.
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EPT
