EPTAll time BW player rankings/a balance discussion - Page 11
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_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On September 14 2017 21:26 A.Alm wrote: i get warned/banned for anything but TT1 can start up a troll thread discussing BW balance? 90% of the posts here are people calling other people wrong/stupid and then 12 lines of text explaining why. the other 10% are sc2 kids coming with super legit balance suggestions. STOP creating stupid balance discussion threads in a 19 yo game where the sc:remastered has ALREADY CAME OUT AND IS FINAL. None of your warnings or bans were regarding balance whining or discussion. Only reason this thread is still open is because the hope was that it wouldn't devolve into the usual balance whine otherwise, it would've been closed as soon as it was posted. Rest assured that if it starts to get bad, it will be closed. | ||
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Sero
United States692 Posts
On September 14 2017 23:38 _Animus_ wrote: That 60 hp scvs always give unfair advantage to terran in rushes, not only in defensive perspective. The easiest way for a terran to win a game in 1 min is bunker rush and that often happens. I would like to see a percentage statistic with wins gained by scv or bunker rush. Or how easy is to hold hydra rush when 12 shots kill 1 scv? 45 or 50 hp wouldve been just fine. SCV health obviously helps in rushes, but in what way is it unfair? Are you losing lots of games to bunker rush in PVT? It can be defended easily even with 12 nexus. This is like me complaining that zealots having more health than marines is an "unfair advantage to Protoss in rushes." | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10627 Posts
On the other hand, if youre attacking or defending, the tanky scvs are obviously way better than probes/drones. So its kind of give and take. It makes early game terran slightly annoying to play with needing to pull the second scv. Otherwise, i think the hp is fine. Lower would mean that harassing building scvs would be way easier and force terran to really be on top of microing scvs early on | ||
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ortseam
996 Posts
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TT1
Canada10110 Posts
On September 14 2017 21:26 A.Alm wrote: i get warned/banned for anything but TT1 can start up a troll thread discussing BW balance? 90% of the posts here are people calling other people wrong/stupid and then 12 lines of text explaining why. the other 10% are sc2 kids coming with super legit balance suggestions. STOP creating stupid balance discussion threads in a 19 yo game where the sc:remastered has ALREADY CAME OUT AND IS FINAL. Well the purpose of this thread was to present a bit of data as a starting point to a balance discussion (for every matchup). Even the Korean scene is having these type of discussions.. so why can't we? If i had to make a change i would increase the vultures build time and maybe change the siege tanks attack upgrade from +5 to +4. I didn't do the math to see whether or not +4 siege tanks could still 2 shot tanks (after 2 attack upgrades).. so that change might have an impact on TvT as well. In any case i don't think that's a bad thing. If +2 attack siege tanks can't 2 shot tanks anymore that would make midd to late game drops (in someone's main) much less punishing. Imo the main issue is mech, stuff like SCV changes aren't necessary. Both Zerg and Terran have very strong 200/200 armies but the difference is Zerg's army is extremely hard to control whereas Terran can perfectly control their entire ball of death. There's a give and take for Zerg, if someone is REALLY good they can master their race and become a beastly player. Even progamer Zergs aren't able to play their race efficiently just because of how high the skill cap is. A Terran 200/200 army on the other hand has no downside, you have an extremely strong army that you can move around the map with ease. Protoss can do that as well but the downside is that our 200/200 army isn't nearly as strong as the other races (which like i said is fine, there's a give and take). | ||
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niteReloaded
Croatia5282 Posts
On September 15 2017 01:08 ProMeTheus112 wrote: have you seen that crazy scv + medics rush designed to kill natural nexus in tvp ? -_- hmmm, I just thought about something like that today ^^ any reps to share? I'm curious. frankly the idea sounds obscene ;p | ||
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Shinokuki
United States928 Posts
On September 15 2017 07:30 TT1 wrote: Well the purpose of this thread was to present a bit of data as a starting point to a balance discussion (for every matchup). Even the Korean scene is having these type of discussions.. so why can't we? If i had to make a change i would increase the vultures build time and maybe change the siege tanks attack upgrade from +5 to +4. I didn't do the math to see whether or not +4 siege tanks could still 2 shot tanks (after 2 attack upgrades).. so that change might have an impact on TvT as well. In any case i don't think that's a bad thing. If +2 attack siege tanks can't 2 shot tanks anymore that would make midd to late game drops (in someone's main) much less punishing. Imo the main issue is mech, stuff like SCV changes aren't necessary. Both Zerg and Terran have very strong 200/200 armies but the difference is Zerg's army is extremely hard to control whereas Terran can perfectly control their entire ball of death. There's a give and take for Zerg, if someone is REALLY good they can master their race and become a beastly player. Even progamer Zerg's aren't able to play their race efficiently just because of how high the skill cap is. A Terran 200/200 army on the other hand has no downside, you have an extremely strong army that you can move around the map with ease. Protoss can do that as well but the downside is that our 200/200 army isn't nearly as strong as the other races. i dont get the hate for terrans. I'm zerg and i think t has the higest skill ceiling. Look at the current top ten elo and you see 4 zergs/3t/3p..... and you are also missing the fact that p is very good at our levels | ||
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TT1
Canada10110 Posts
On September 15 2017 07:59 Shinokuki wrote: i dont get the hate for terrans. I'm zerg and i think t has the higest skill ceiling. Look at the current top ten elo and you see 4 zergs/3t/3p..... and you are also missing the fact that p is very good at our levels Sorry but they don't, Zerg has the highest skill cap and it isn't remotely close. I understand that P is good at lower to midd levels but we're talking about balance at the highest level. | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
On September 15 2017 07:47 niteReloaded wrote: hmmm, I just thought about something like that today ^^ any reps to share? I'm curious. frankly the idea sounds obscene ;p I think scan did it in one of his videos but couldnt tell you which, maybe just on a stream | ||
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Shinokuki
United States928 Posts
On September 15 2017 08:00 TT1 wrote: Sorry but they don't, Zerg has the highest skill cap and it isn't remotely close. I understand that P is good at lower to midd levels but we're talking about balance at the highest level. what evidence do you have? Flash is the evidence for the terran skill ceiling. Also I agree z has the consensus highest skill ceiling but its impossible to reach it. Someone like flash can reach almost the highest skill ceiling T can offer but someone like larva/effort/jd cannot reach the impossible. Thats the diff. T has the viable highest skill ceiling possible | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On September 15 2017 08:03 ProMeTheus112 wrote: I think scan did it in one of his videos but couldnt tell you which, maybe just on a stream From what I understand, it's pretty similar to the fake double (2 tanks, handful of marines, and an early vulture) except that you push out a little later with a medic after you build your academy. It makes the marines way tankier and prevents them from being easily kited across the map. | ||
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Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
I have two questions, if you guys could answer ... 1. How would it affect the game if SCVs have 50hp? 2. Scan is the universal object of "tesagi whining", how would it affect the game if Comsats have 150 energy instead of 200? | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
Mid to late game when tech switches ZvT happen, Terran would normally have 2-3 CCs, You doing multiple scans does not mean its not wanting of fix, it just means that its available. It's like you saying vulture having speed and mine upgrades are perfectly ok because you often use them. From what I understand, we are here to discuss balance, and scan and vultures (though I dont want to bring up vultures for now) are one of the most immediate things people complain about as being tesagi. The argument is scan is ok since Terrans dont have fast and flexible units that can gather information like observers and overlords, but having 4 max scans is too much, so how would 3 do? It doesnt eliminate the option, it just makes the field a little more even. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10627 Posts
On September 15 2017 09:43 Shinokuki wrote: what evidence do you have? Flash is the evidence for the terran skill ceiling. Also I agree z has the consensus highest skill ceiling but its impossible to reach it. Someone like flash can reach almost the highest skill ceiling T can offer but someone like larva/effort/jd cannot reach the impossible. Thats the diff. T has the viable highest skill ceiling possible if it's possible, it's viable. players need to train harder and be better then. | ||
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PobTheCad
Australia893 Posts
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iopq
United States1200 Posts
On September 15 2017 11:14 Twinkle Toes wrote: Thanks, I get the SCV 60hp arguments now, especially the early game harass disadvantage and the rush advantage. I have two questions, if you guys could answer ... 1. How would it affect the game if SCVs have 50hp? 2. Scan is the universal object of "tesagi whining", how would it affect the game if Comsats have 150 energy instead of 200? 1. Terran won't survive early game rushes as easily, but also won't bunker rush as effectively. Overall, a pretty good change. 2. It would do little since Terrans use energy to check the map. The only thing it would affect are siege tank pushes without vessels vs. Zerg (you probably want to save up all the energy you can) and play vs. Arbiters (you want to save up energy since vessels get stasised). If anything, this is the kind of change where it doesn't help Zerg almost ever (who pushes without a vessel?), but hurts Terran vs. Protoss more. Instead of the comsat change, I would just reduce medic starting armor from 1 to 0. It would help Zergs against Terran to snipe medics with mutas, but won't affect any PvT concerns. | ||
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
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