EPTAll time BW player rankings/a balance discussion - Page 10
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NotJumperer
United States1371 Posts
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Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
On September 14 2017 09:09 Jumperer wrote: Bisu can dominate zerg because he has the best physical mechanic in all of esports. No other protoss in the world can imitate his multitask-based pvz. He's an outlier. Your logic is extremely flawed because you claim the matchup is fine using an outlier while ignoring the rest of the population. Not all protosses are bisu and not all women are joan of arc. I watched a Korean show 2009ish or 2010, a long time ago so my memory is sketchy. Effort, Stork, some other players, I don't remember if Jaedong and Flash were there as well or if the others just brought them up. But they all agree Bisu's micro is way beyond theirs. Effort is a self-admitted spammer, but he chuckled when he sees how much Bisu can work the apm all throughout the game. The immortal probe was universally brought up, and everyone also mentioned how Bisu's first couple Zealot harass is really terrifying for zergs. But the most important thing discussed in the show was when Stork said it's not Bisu's mechanics that makes him god of PvZ, but his "soul", again, I'm drawing from almost a decade old memory, but Stork explained it like: Bisu is like the Kerrigan of Protoss. He has the soul of a zerg in the mind and body of a Protoss. He knows every trick and secret zergs have. At this point, Effort interrupted, saying other protoss rely on available information and adjust according to that, while Bisu can read both on available and absent information. He can predict strategies based on absence of units or overlord in a location in the map, number of lurkers even if some are hidden, and can decide by instinct if 2 or 3 corsairs are needed or he needs to allocate gas to templar tech in important transitions in games. Add this to the fact that he knows every timing in the zerg arsenal and can outmicro any zerg, even himself and Jaedong, Bisu's pvz is gold standard. Stork concluded that Bisu understands both the form and the essence of what zergs are trying to do, and that's why it's impossible for other Protoss to follow, because once the form changes, they get lost already, but Bisu knows both intimately and is not deceived by any zerg shenanigans. They just laughed at the end saying that ZvP is broken and Bisu is the only one capable of wining the MU. This was on an Arirang show alongside the replays of the week that the casters review. Good times. | ||
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Shinokuki
United States923 Posts
On September 14 2017 09:09 Jumperer wrote: Bisu can dominate zerg because he has the best physical mechanic in all of esports. No other protoss in the world can imitate his multitask-based pvz. He's an outlier. Your logic is extremely flawed because you claim the matchup is fine using an outlier while ignoring the rest of the population. Not all protosses are bisu and not all women are joan of arc. and you are also ignoring the fact that toss is op at early/mid levels until 2500 mmr where semi pro/pros hover aroun?? so whats the point? You want more toss users? who is going to play already the rarest race zerg? | ||
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Luddite
United States2315 Posts
I don't think there's any comparable unit you could nerf in ZvP that only gets used in that matchup. Maybe reduce the HP of some zerg buildings like the evo chamber and hydro den, since they're so important for simcity defense? That would be interesting. But seriously, nerf the firebat. | ||
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Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
Also, agree with Firebat^. I think it's the easiest, balance-restoring but logical change that could be done. | ||
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Sero
United States692 Posts
On September 14 2017 13:24 Twinkle Toes wrote: Serious question, why does SCV have 60hp? What disadvantage is it compensating for to justify +33% hp? Also, agree with Firebat^. I think it's the easiest, balance-restoring but logical change that could be done. Shorter range, slower response, no automatic health regeneration, and vulnerability while building. | ||
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Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
On September 14 2017 13:27 Sero wrote: Shorter range, slower response, no automatic health regeneration, and vulnerability while building. Shorter range and slower response is tricky. While Drone and Probe have range attacks, they have slower rate of fire that it evens out with SCVs. To list other factors Drone - health regeneration but they are sacrificed for buildings, can build only on creep Probe - shield regeneration, warp in multiple buildings, build anywhere within psi SCV - micro-cost for immediate repair, build anywhere SCVs have no disadvantage to warrant such relatively massive hp difference | ||
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nukkuj
Finland403 Posts
 Edit: Statistics were good read though | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12024 Posts
On September 14 2017 13:34 Twinkle Toes wrote: Shorter range and slower response is tricky. While Drone and Probe have range attacks, they have slower rate of fire that it evens out with SCVs. To list other factors Drone - health regeneration but they are sacrificed for buildings, can build only on creep Probe - shield regeneration, warp in multiple buildings, build anywhere within psi SCV - micro-cost for immediate repair, build anywhere SCVs have no disadvantage to warrant such relatively massive hp difference I assume you've never played Terran right? If the SCV didn't have 60HP you would literally lose every TvP at the beginning. You would never be able to finish your barracks in time against a good probe. | ||
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Sero
United States692 Posts
On September 14 2017 13:34 Twinkle Toes wrote: Shorter range and slower response is tricky. While Drone and Probe have range attacks, they have slower rate of fire that it evens out with SCVs. Yeah, if neither player micros. It affects early game worker harassment, especially in PvT. Also, proxy gates and 4/5 pool would be extremely difficult to defend even after being scouted. | ||
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Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
I'm not saying there are no reasons why it shouldnt be 60 vs 40 for the two other workers, Im just saying all the reasons presented so far seem insufficient to justify the 60hp. | ||
TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
On September 12 2017 05:43 ii.blitzkrieg wrote: If you're responding to me then yes, I know who TT1 is and it is kind of funny a foreign Protoss is making the thread about tesagi but it's clear he's doing it from the viewpoint of Korean pros at the highest level, as the discussion should be. He also started the thread with some attempt to provide some starting points for discussion, not balance whining like erggg vultures so cheap! comsat imba, etc. I still think my point hasn't come across, maybe I'm just plain wrong, but it is in no way balance whining. First of all, I'm in NO position to comment Terran balance per se, since I barely play the game competitively; second of all, even when I do, I play Terran; and last but not least, I consider the game - as an observer - to be pretty close to balanced, at least at the highest level, since that's where most of the viewers (including myself) are. I have no clue if Protosses struggle vs Terrans on mid-level ladder/ICCUP/whatever, and quite frankly, I don't care much. Most of this discussion has been revolving around the top players from all eras anyway. It's just that genius players can do more with real-time, on-demand information. It's true terrans are dependent on the comsat in all matchups; that's something the meta has forced anyway. It's true the other two races can screw around with the Terran and force scans to waste energy; but for some reason I just think a genius has more use for a comsat than for an observer, for example. Even meta building and adjusting BOs has probably been revolving around heavy comsat usage and I don't think it happened spontaneously; I think big guys timed their academies, then comsats, then scans to possible enemy build orders and did it countless times to perfect them. Probably those of you that have followed the scene since its early days can elaborate more, I am just thinking out loud, not trying to look knowledgeable - because I'm not. And quite frankly, I don't think participating in an online discussion about a game we all love should be restricted to aficionados and oldschoolers. Please, correct me if I am wrong. I had hopes for a proper discussion. | ||
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_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
On September 13 2017 09:25 Lorch wrote: You do realise that you are supposed to open corsair to deal with mutas, right? The only comparable thing terran has is wraiths, and I can't remember anyone besides Leta who really put that into effect in competitive play. Toss uses cannons to kill scourge and corsairs to deal with mutas. Meanwhile terran uses marines + turrets to keep mutas at bay and eventually vessels to end the threat. You make it sound like everything should be the same in a game with three distinct races. Of course protoss has a different interaction with zerg than terran. In the natural balance of starcraft of P>T>Z>P you are supposed to have a harder time with PvZ. And you said it yourself that players like Bisu can dominate Zerg just fine, and imo as long as it's possible for someone to do it there is no issue. If you are struggling at anything on the mid level it's probably because you suck at macro and/or control, not because the game is broken. You have many wrongs and seem to not understand what ive been talk about or didnt read my previous post. As i said making expensive air to air unit just to counter other unit is uneffective by default same goes for 200-200 for robo + 50-100 observatory just for observer with low health and sluggish speed. Why terran need to have that corsair option when he have marines that are great against both ground and air and they can be healed to full health? Natural balance goes T>Z>P. Protoss builds simply doesnt work anymore as they used to in the past, thats why protoss players use so much unorthodox openings, again with not much success. Now lets talk to the trademar toss things. When was the last time youve seen sucessful reaver play in pro level, and what is the ratio of success overall? Do you remember a game where corsair reaver worked against zerg in the last 2 years? Or maybe dt rush/harass in non mirror matchup? I dont see how can protoss players suck while others dont. Protoss shuttle harass is the most expensive of all the races too. So much for toss is too costly and hard to recover from. Not only that but it became uneffective. I can see protoss "bag of builds" sort of depleted its potential. Part of this could be that the level of play significantly decreased and with no young blood, players are too old to perform sharp enough, also other races learned how to defend and defending is way easier than doing the harass. | ||
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niteReloaded
Croatia5282 Posts
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A.Alm
Sweden531 Posts
90% of the posts here are people calling other people wrong/stupid and then 12 lines of text explaining why. the other 10% are sc2 kids coming with super legit balance suggestions. STOP creating stupid balance discussion threads in a 19 yo game where the sc:remastered has ALREADY CAME OUT AND IS FINAL. | ||
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Greth
Belgium318 Posts
On September 14 2017 21:26 A.Alm wrote: i get warned/banned for anything but TT1 can start up a troll thread discussing BW balance? 90% of the posts here are people calling other people wrong/stupid and then 12 lines of text explaining why. the other 10% are sc2 kids coming with super legit balance suggestions. STOP creating stupid balance discussion threads in a 19 yo game where the sc:remastered has ALREADY CAME OUT AND IS FINAL. The only legit balance suggestions were mine. | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
On September 13 2017 18:28 Greth wrote: Protoss Balance Changes - Protoss Probe now has a new passive ability: “Demon Aura”. The effect is simply a visual clarification as this undocumented effect was already in the game. Sounds powerful but I can't argue with the reasoning. PS: + Show Spoiler + Never admit that your posts are satire. You will only regret it. | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
On September 14 2017 12:52 Shinokuki wrote:and you are also ignoring the fact that toss is op at early/mid levels until 2500 mmr where semi pro/pros hover aroun?? so whats the point? You want more toss users? who is going to play already the rarest race zerg? what a joke, have some respect for protoss users pls~ or switch to protoss and get rekt^^ | ||
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Sadist
United States7292 Posts
Any complaints about 60hp scv are ridiculous and obviously are coming from non terran players. Claiming its as simple as pulling scvs off and replacing them during probe harass clearly shows youve never had scvs wig out n get stuck ontop of buildings while the probes magic range continues to hit them. | ||
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tanngard
Norway1325 Posts
On September 14 2017 21:26 A.Alm wrote: i get warned/banned for anything but TT1 can start up a troll thread discussing BW balance? 90% of the posts here are people calling other people wrong/stupid and then 12 lines of text explaining why. the other 10% are sc2 kids coming with super legit balance suggestions. STOP creating stupid balance discussion threads in a 19 yo game where the sc:remastered has ALREADY CAME OUT AND IS FINAL. But balance discussion does not have to be about fixing balance, but to discuss and gain understanding for the game and why there are certain discrepancies between the races. Better to have a discussion than have people keep perpetuating their own home made theories without resistance, because ideas and bias about balance in a game with 3 different races will never go away. Neither will the fact that BW is not and never have been perfectly balanced. Discussing the nuances of that fact is interesting and is not a support for changing the game. | ||
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