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On September 18 2017 00:38 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
true the vulture is probably the biggest terran advantage.. I wouldn't change anything to the mines even though they're really strong because, it seems like it would be a huge change. Idk. But I think they kill workers unfair fast, I would say reducing their dmg a bit would probably be good. Ofc this would impact their damage on other targets too, and I think that wouldn't be bad. Not a huge damage reduction, something like 2 or 4 damage less, they would kill workers in 3 shots, so a 50% change of effectiveness at that (in situations where no shots wasted), 4 shots for killing scvs instead of 3, and if further reduced they would also need 3 shots to kill a ling. A little less effective at killing zealots with direct damage.. Seeing how fast they are, cheap, how fast they shoot, they damage shields 100%, they have the mines, I think losing a little damage on the vulture would not be bad.
Changing the mines by making the AoE a little smaller, is that good or bad? too big a change, probably, it's a bigger change, it impacts pvt too much (though it would be less friendly fire damage for the terran too lol).
What about this: drone 50hp, probe 50hp also?
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dt do not 1 shot them then.
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On September 18 2017 08:05 StorrZerg wrote:
dt do not 1 shot them then.
as they dont scvs.
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On September 18 2017 08:18 Twinkle Toes wrote:as they dont scvs.
which will make toss suck even more in all match ups
On September 17 2017 13:30 Twinkle Toes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2017 16:54 ninazerg wrote:On September 15 2017 16:41 _Animus_ wrote:
Well in pvz and pvt ive seen alot of pro players lose to bunker rush. How can someone lose to a bunker rush in PvZ? Ladies and gentlemen, undeniable irrefutable evidence of tesagi. /thread :p
Obviously a typo, i was having tvz in mind, like Mind the progamer , who accidentally bunker rushed 5 out of 6 games in a row in kongdoo tournament finals two years ago against Kwanro. The only reason he didnt bunker rush the sixth game was because Kwanro rushed him and rush was held... because scvs are 60 hp and tank infinite hits so with that game Mind won the tournament 
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Just make a UMS map, you can change basic unit stats and test all your theories there :0
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United States4883 Posts
On September 18 2017 00:41 Espers wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2017 03:52 FlaShFTW wrote:On September 16 2017 23:44 Espers wrote:
People don't use Queens anymore, it was just something Zergs tried for a little while once ZvT gets to end game with 3-3 Tanks..They lack the punch to really stop the Terran push because you have to wait so long for Queen mana to regenerate enough to cast another Broodling, and as people said mixing in Valks deters Queens very well.
They're just not very good. I don't know why people mention "well it works at D", that's beside the point. It's an inferior strategy at every level.
Ensnare in the midgame probably has more potential, but not really worth delaying your Hive or having less gas for Hive stuff. bruh.. zergs have been doing it more and more vs the mech switch in zvt. what are you on lol no, the games where Zergs were using queens were like 3-4 months ago for a while with mixed results. you won't see Larva, Effort and so on use them now. you won't see them in the ASL. they're really not worth it.
Flash vs hero @ Fighting Spirit 9-12-17
I know for a fact that Larva has played multiple queen games in the last 30 days too.
EDIT: Just to clarify, I'm not trying to say that the strategy is good or effective, but the use of queens against mech is clearly still in use on occasion.
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On September 18 2017 08:51 _Animus_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2017 08:18 Twinkle Toes wrote:On September 18 2017 08:05 StorrZerg wrote:
dt do not 1 shot them then. as they dont scvs. which will make toss suck even more in all match ups Show nested quote +On September 17 2017 13:30 Twinkle Toes wrote:On September 16 2017 16:54 ninazerg wrote:On September 15 2017 16:41 _Animus_ wrote:
Well in pvz and pvt ive seen alot of pro players lose to bunker rush. How can someone lose to a bunker rush in PvZ? Ladies and gentlemen, undeniable irrefutable evidence of tesagi. /thread :p Obviously a typo, i was having tvz in mind, like Mind the progamer , who accidentally bunker rushed 5 out of 6 games in a row in kongdoo tournament finals two years ago against Kwanro. The only reason he didnt bunker rush the sixth game was because Kwanro rushed him and rush was held... because scvs are 60 hp and tank infinite hits so with that game Mind won the tournament
Chill bro, we be messin.
This thread needs a light-hearted moment like this anyway
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On September 18 2017 08:51 _Animus_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2017 08:18 Twinkle Toes wrote:On September 18 2017 08:05 StorrZerg wrote:
dt do not 1 shot them then. as they dont scvs. which will make toss suck even more in all match ups Show nested quote +On September 17 2017 13:30 Twinkle Toes wrote:On September 16 2017 16:54 ninazerg wrote:On September 15 2017 16:41 _Animus_ wrote:
Well in pvz and pvt ive seen alot of pro players lose to bunker rush. How can someone lose to a bunker rush in PvZ? Ladies and gentlemen, undeniable irrefutable evidence of tesagi. /thread :p Obviously a typo, i was having tvz in mind, like Mind the progamer , who accidentally bunker rushed 5 out of 6 games in a row in kongdoo tournament finals two years ago against Kwanro. The only reason he didnt bunker rush the sixth game was because Kwanro rushed him and rush was held... because scvs are 60 hp and tank infinite hits so with that game Mind won the tournament
Honestly "Toss is underpowered" would feel like a way more accurate meme than Tesagi. ZvT is way more fair than PvZ or PvT.
I would also have very few bad feelings about changing SCV health to 50.
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On September 18 2017 13:22 DepressionSC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2017 08:51 _Animus_ wrote:On September 18 2017 08:18 Twinkle Toes wrote:On September 18 2017 08:05 StorrZerg wrote:
dt do not 1 shot them then. as they dont scvs. which will make toss suck even more in all match ups On September 17 2017 13:30 Twinkle Toes wrote:On September 16 2017 16:54 ninazerg wrote:On September 15 2017 16:41 _Animus_ wrote:
Well in pvz and pvt ive seen alot of pro players lose to bunker rush. How can someone lose to a bunker rush in PvZ? Ladies and gentlemen, undeniable irrefutable evidence of tesagi. /thread :p Obviously a typo, i was having tvz in mind, like Mind the progamer , who accidentally bunker rushed 5 out of 6 games in a row in kongdoo tournament finals two years ago against Kwanro. The only reason he didnt bunker rush the sixth game was because Kwanro rushed him and rush was held... because scvs are 60 hp and tank infinite hits so with that game Mind won the tournament Honestly "Toss is underpowered" would feel like a way more accurate meme than Tesagi. ZvT is way more fair than PvZ or PvT. I would also have very few bad feelings about changing SCV health to 50.
ehat a toss. You benefit from easiness of the race at that level. I could understand if you are complaining ehen you are 2500 mmr+ but i just can't man. I also can't believe you said that about zvt as wrll
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On September 18 2017 13:22 DepressionSC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2017 08:51 _Animus_ wrote:On September 18 2017 08:18 Twinkle Toes wrote:On September 18 2017 08:05 StorrZerg wrote:
dt do not 1 shot them then. as they dont scvs. which will make toss suck even more in all match ups On September 17 2017 13:30 Twinkle Toes wrote:On September 16 2017 16:54 ninazerg wrote:On September 15 2017 16:41 _Animus_ wrote:
Well in pvz and pvt ive seen alot of pro players lose to bunker rush. How can someone lose to a bunker rush in PvZ? Ladies and gentlemen, undeniable irrefutable evidence of tesagi. /thread :p Obviously a typo, i was having tvz in mind, like Mind the progamer , who accidentally bunker rushed 5 out of 6 games in a row in kongdoo tournament finals two years ago against Kwanro. The only reason he didnt bunker rush the sixth game was because Kwanro rushed him and rush was held... because scvs are 60 hp and tank infinite hits so with that game Mind won the tournament Honestly "Toss is underpowered" would feel like a way more accurate meme than Tesagi. ZvT is way more fair than PvZ or PvT. I would also have very few bad feelings about changing SCV health to 50.
Are you talking about balance during the professional era, or current state of balance?
If you look into the Elo-adjusted expected win rate (because a shit player like Britney going 50% against somebody clearly better like Flash is not perfect balance) for each of the match-ups on Circuit Breaker and Fighting Spirit, the most played maps in recent months, statistics says otherwise.
Circuit Breaker: Sample size of 6,386 sponsored matches
Expected zerg-versus-terran win rate between players with the same Elo rating: 44.1%
Expected zerg-versus-protoss win rate between players with the same Elo rating: 47.7%
Expected protoss-versus-terran win rate between players with the same Elo rating: 48.8%
Expected protoss-versus-zerg win rate between player with the same Elo rating: 52.3%
Fighting Spirit: Sample size of 2,182 sponsored matches
Expected zerg-versus-protoss win rate between players with the same Elo rating: 43.6%
Expected zerg-versus-terran win rate between players with the same Elo rating: 46.2%
Expected protoss-versus-terran win rate between players with the same Elo rating: 47.2%
Expected protoss-versus-zerg win rate between player with the same Elo rating: 56.4%
Statistics were taken from the site below.
http://sponbbang.com/race/
When was the last time you saw the terran race as a whole performing clearly the worst out of the three races given sufficient sample size? We can only assume what the actual balance of the game is at the highest level, since literally nobody has solved the game of Brood War, and the players are still in the process of advancing closer to pefecting their mastery of the game, and there is no reason to think the the possible skill cap for human beings has been reached already. I'm willing to keep an open mind if people think the terran race as a whole has made progressions towards theoretically perfect human play at a rate that was ahead of the other two races.
However, it is a downright lie to suggest that the terran race hasn't been putting forth superior results (however miniscule the actual disparity in results happen to be) compared to the other two races at the competitive level. The question of which race is getting shafted the most is up to discussion, and it's true that the protoss race has been at the receiving end for most of history, but it's not as clear cut as you make it out to be, as if it has been an even two-horse race between the terran and the zerg race throughout history.
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On September 18 2017 14:11 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2017 13:22 DepressionSC wrote:On September 18 2017 08:51 _Animus_ wrote:On September 18 2017 08:18 Twinkle Toes wrote:On September 18 2017 08:05 StorrZerg wrote:
dt do not 1 shot them then. as they dont scvs. which will make toss suck even more in all match ups On September 17 2017 13:30 Twinkle Toes wrote:On September 16 2017 16:54 ninazerg wrote:On September 15 2017 16:41 _Animus_ wrote:
Well in pvz and pvt ive seen alot of pro players lose to bunker rush. How can someone lose to a bunker rush in PvZ? Ladies and gentlemen, undeniable irrefutable evidence of tesagi. /thread :p Obviously a typo, i was having tvz in mind, like Mind the progamer , who accidentally bunker rushed 5 out of 6 games in a row in kongdoo tournament finals two years ago against Kwanro. The only reason he didnt bunker rush the sixth game was because Kwanro rushed him and rush was held... because scvs are 60 hp and tank infinite hits so with that game Mind won the tournament Honestly "Toss is underpowered" would feel like a way more accurate meme than Tesagi. ZvT is way more fair than PvZ or PvT. I would also have very few bad feelings about changing SCV health to 50. Are you talking about balance during the professional era, or current state of balance? If you look into the Elo-adjusted expected win rate (because a shit player like Britney going 50% against somebody clearly better like Flash is not perfect balance) for each of the match-ups on Circuit Breaker and Fighting Spirit, the most played maps in recent months, statistics says otherwise. Circuit Breaker: Sample size of 6,386 sponsored matches Expected zerg-versus-terran win rate between players with the same Elo rating: 44.1% Expected zerg-versus-protoss win rate between players with the same Elo rating: 47.7% Expected protoss-versus-terran win rate between players with the same Elo rating: 48.8% Expected protoss-versus-zerg win rate between player with the same Elo rating: 52.3% Fighting Spirit: Sample size of 2,182 sponsored matches Expected zerg-versus-protoss win rate between players with the same Elo rating: 43.6% Expected zerg-versus-terran win rate between players with the same Elo rating: 46.2% Expected protoss-versus-terran win rate between players with the same Elo rating: 47.2% Expected protoss-versus-zerg win rate between player with the same Elo rating: 56.4% Statistics were taken from the site below. http://sponbbang.com/race/When was the last time you saw the terran race as a whole performing clearly the worst out of the three races given sufficient sample size? We can only assume what the actual balance of the game is at the highest level, since literally nobody has solved the game of Brood War, and the players are still in the process of advancing closer to pefecting their mastery of the game, and there is no reason to think the the possible skill cap for human beings has been reached already. I'm willing to keep an open mind if people think the terran race as a whole has made progressions towards theoretically perfect human play at a rate that was ahead of the other two races. However, it is a downright lie to suggest that the terran race hasn't been putting forth superior results (however miniscule the actual disparity in results happen to be) compared to the other two races at the competitive level. The question of which race is getting shafted the most is up to discussion, and it's true that the protoss race has been at the receiving end for most of history, but it's not as clear cut as you make it out to be, as if it has been an even two-horse race between the terran and the zerg race throughout history.
so basically this shows that cb is not zerg favored map and also confirms the idea that fs is really bad for fs
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On September 18 2017 14:08 Shinokuki wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2017 13:22 DepressionSC wrote:On September 18 2017 08:51 _Animus_ wrote:On September 18 2017 08:18 Twinkle Toes wrote:On September 18 2017 08:05 StorrZerg wrote:
dt do not 1 shot them then. as they dont scvs. which will make toss suck even more in all match ups On September 17 2017 13:30 Twinkle Toes wrote:On September 16 2017 16:54 ninazerg wrote:On September 15 2017 16:41 _Animus_ wrote:
Well in pvz and pvt ive seen alot of pro players lose to bunker rush. How can someone lose to a bunker rush in PvZ? Ladies and gentlemen, undeniable irrefutable evidence of tesagi. /thread :p Obviously a typo, i was having tvz in mind, like Mind the progamer , who accidentally bunker rushed 5 out of 6 games in a row in kongdoo tournament finals two years ago against Kwanro. The only reason he didnt bunker rush the sixth game was because Kwanro rushed him and rush was held... because scvs are 60 hp and tank infinite hits so with that game Mind won the tournament Honestly "Toss is underpowered" would feel like a way more accurate meme than Tesagi. ZvT is way more fair than PvZ or PvT. I would also have very few bad feelings about changing SCV health to 50. ehat a toss. You benefit from easiness of the race at that level. I could understand if you are complaining ehen you are 2500 mmr+ but i just can't man. I also can't believe you said that about zvt as wrll
I'm certainly not complaining. I main Terran and yes Toss is a nightmare to deal with at low levels but I don't see any point in complaining about the balance when I have so much room to get better. When I refer to Toss seeming under-powered I am just observing on how things seem at a very high level. Ultimately I prefer to love the game than to complain about it.
As for ZvT, I notice a ton of really strong options that Zerg has all through the game. Their dropships don't cost gas or supply and defilers are just bonkers good (not that Terran doesn't have equally strong options please remember that I feel the match-up is close to even not Zerg favored). If anything Zerg is just more difficult at high levels.
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On September 18 2017 14:11 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2017 13:22 DepressionSC wrote:On September 18 2017 08:51 _Animus_ wrote:On September 18 2017 08:18 Twinkle Toes wrote:On September 18 2017 08:05 StorrZerg wrote:
dt do not 1 shot them then. as they dont scvs. which will make toss suck even more in all match ups On September 17 2017 13:30 Twinkle Toes wrote:On September 16 2017 16:54 ninazerg wrote:On September 15 2017 16:41 _Animus_ wrote:
Well in pvz and pvt ive seen alot of pro players lose to bunker rush. How can someone lose to a bunker rush in PvZ? Ladies and gentlemen, undeniable irrefutable evidence of tesagi. /thread :p Obviously a typo, i was having tvz in mind, like Mind the progamer , who accidentally bunker rushed 5 out of 6 games in a row in kongdoo tournament finals two years ago against Kwanro. The only reason he didnt bunker rush the sixth game was because Kwanro rushed him and rush was held... because scvs are 60 hp and tank infinite hits so with that game Mind won the tournament Honestly "Toss is underpowered" would feel like a way more accurate meme than Tesagi. ZvT is way more fair than PvZ or PvT. I would also have very few bad feelings about changing SCV health to 50. Are you talking about balance during the professional era, or current state of balance? If you look into the Elo-adjusted expected win rate (because a shit player like Britney going 50% against somebody clearly better like Flash is not perfect balance) for each of the match-ups on Circuit Breaker and Fighting Spirit, the most played maps in recent months, statistics says otherwise. Circuit Breaker: Sample size of 6,386 sponsored matches Expected zerg-versus-terran win rate between players with the same Elo rating: 44.1% Expected zerg-versus-protoss win rate between players with the same Elo rating: 47.7% Expected protoss-versus-terran win rate between players with the same Elo rating: 48.8% Expected protoss-versus-zerg win rate between player with the same Elo rating: 52.3% Fighting Spirit: Sample size of 2,182 sponsored matches Expected zerg-versus-protoss win rate between players with the same Elo rating: 43.6% Expected zerg-versus-terran win rate between players with the same Elo rating: 46.2% Expected protoss-versus-terran win rate between players with the same Elo rating: 47.2% Expected protoss-versus-zerg win rate between player with the same Elo rating: 56.4% Statistics were taken from the site below. http://sponbbang.com/race/When was the last time you saw the terran race as a whole performing clearly the worst out of the three races given sufficient sample size? We can only assume what the actual balance of the game is at the highest level, since literally nobody has solved the game of Brood War, and the players are still in the process of advancing closer to pefecting their mastery of the game, and there is no reason to think the the possible skill cap for human beings has been reached already. I'm willing to keep an open mind if people think the terran race as a whole has made progressions towards theoretically perfect human play at a rate that was ahead of the other two races. However, it is a downright lie to suggest that the terran race hasn't been putting forth superior results (however miniscule the actual disparity in results happen to be) compared to the other two races at the competitive level. The question of which race is getting shafted the most is up to discussion, and it's true that the protoss race has been at the receiving end for most of history, but it's not as clear cut as you make it out to be, as if it has been an even two-horse race between the terran and the zerg race throughout history.
I was referring to the current state of balance at the highest current skill level. My intuition regarding Protoss being under-powered was based on an observation that Protoss doesn't seem to be producing many players that seem like a championship threat right now. There are relatively few top Zergs but I feel like a higher percentage of them look like they could win a tournament. Is your chart based around a particular ELO? I am curious as to whether you agree with my assertion about the quantity of championship-level Protosses and why. You seem to have access to better information to me and I wouldn't be surprised if my superficial observations are just completely wrong although I would be interested in figuring out how that happened.
And for the record, I think Tesagi is a dumb meme since, as you said, Brood War is far from solved. I was more thinking that if dumb memes are what we are doing these days, it seems odd that no one complains about Toss being bad (at a high level anyways).
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On September 18 2017 08:51 _Animus_ wrote:Obviously a typo, i was having tvz in mind, like Mind the progamer , who accidentally bunker rushed 5 out of 6 games in a row in kongdoo tournament finals two years ago against Kwanro. The only reason he didnt bunker rush the sixth game was because Kwanro rushed him and rush was held... because scvs are 60 hp and tank infinite hits so with that game Mind won the tournament
accidentally bunker rushed 5 out of 6
oops
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Wait until we have strategy learning AIs capable of beating flash with all races. Then we can simply run them against each other for a couple of years to see..
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On September 19 2017 10:17 DepressionSC wrote:
it seems odd that no one complains about Toss being bad (at a high level anyways).
Except for... every single Protoss in these threads? Also, even implying that PvT is anywhere near ZvT in terms of balance, both now and in Kespa era, is simply wrong
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On September 19 2017 10:17 DepressionSC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2017 14:11 Letmelose wrote:On September 18 2017 13:22 DepressionSC wrote:On September 18 2017 08:51 _Animus_ wrote:On September 18 2017 08:18 Twinkle Toes wrote:On September 18 2017 08:05 StorrZerg wrote:
dt do not 1 shot them then. as they dont scvs. which will make toss suck even more in all match ups On September 17 2017 13:30 Twinkle Toes wrote:On September 16 2017 16:54 ninazerg wrote:On September 15 2017 16:41 _Animus_ wrote:
Well in pvz and pvt ive seen alot of pro players lose to bunker rush. How can someone lose to a bunker rush in PvZ? Ladies and gentlemen, undeniable irrefutable evidence of tesagi. /thread :p Obviously a typo, i was having tvz in mind, like Mind the progamer , who accidentally bunker rushed 5 out of 6 games in a row in kongdoo tournament finals two years ago against Kwanro. The only reason he didnt bunker rush the sixth game was because Kwanro rushed him and rush was held... because scvs are 60 hp and tank infinite hits so with that game Mind won the tournament Honestly "Toss is underpowered" would feel like a way more accurate meme than Tesagi. ZvT is way more fair than PvZ or PvT. I would also have very few bad feelings about changing SCV health to 50. Are you talking about balance during the professional era, or current state of balance? If you look into the Elo-adjusted expected win rate (because a shit player like Britney going 50% against somebody clearly better like Flash is not perfect balance) for each of the match-ups on Circuit Breaker and Fighting Spirit, the most played maps in recent months, statistics says otherwise. Circuit Breaker: Sample size of 6,386 sponsored matches Expected zerg-versus-terran win rate between players with the same Elo rating: 44.1% Expected zerg-versus-protoss win rate between players with the same Elo rating: 47.7% Expected protoss-versus-terran win rate between players with the same Elo rating: 48.8% Expected protoss-versus-zerg win rate between player with the same Elo rating: 52.3% Fighting Spirit: Sample size of 2,182 sponsored matches Expected zerg-versus-protoss win rate between players with the same Elo rating: 43.6% Expected zerg-versus-terran win rate between players with the same Elo rating: 46.2% Expected protoss-versus-terran win rate between players with the same Elo rating: 47.2% Expected protoss-versus-zerg win rate between player with the same Elo rating: 56.4% Statistics were taken from the site below. http://sponbbang.com/race/When was the last time you saw the terran race as a whole performing clearly the worst out of the three races given sufficient sample size? We can only assume what the actual balance of the game is at the highest level, since literally nobody has solved the game of Brood War, and the players are still in the process of advancing closer to pefecting their mastery of the game, and there is no reason to think the the possible skill cap for human beings has been reached already. I'm willing to keep an open mind if people think the terran race as a whole has made progressions towards theoretically perfect human play at a rate that was ahead of the other two races. However, it is a downright lie to suggest that the terran race hasn't been putting forth superior results (however miniscule the actual disparity in results happen to be) compared to the other two races at the competitive level. The question of which race is getting shafted the most is up to discussion, and it's true that the protoss race has been at the receiving end for most of history, but it's not as clear cut as you make it out to be, as if it has been an even two-horse race between the terran and the zerg race throughout history. I was referring to the current state of balance at the highest current skill level. My intuition regarding Protoss being under-powered was based on an observation that Protoss doesn't seem to be producing many players that seem like a championship threat right now. There are relatively few top Zergs but I feel like a higher percentage of them look like they could win a tournament. Is your chart based around a particular ELO? I am curious as to whether you agree with my assertion about the quantity of championship-level Protosses and why. You seem to have access to better information to me and I wouldn't be surprised if my superficial observations are just completely wrong although I would be interested in figuring out how that happened. And for the record, I think Tesagi is a dumb meme since, as you said, Brood War is far from solved. I was more thinking that if dumb memes are what we are doing these days, it seems odd that no one complains about Toss being bad (at a high level anyways).
All-time ASL ranking according to their formula (which is used to seed players):
1. Flash (T): 8410 points
2. Sea (T): 4330 points
3. Bisu (P): 4223 points
4. EffOrt (Z): 4091 points
5. Shuttle (P): 3990 points
6. Sharp (T): 3569 points
7. Last (T): 3394 points
8. BeSt (P): 2755 points
9. Shine (Z): 2500 points
10. herO (Z): 2211 points
Elo ranking based on sponsored matches (for the most recent month of September 2017):
1. Flash (T): 1278.4 points
2. Bisu (P): 1176.8 points
3. Soulkey (Z): 1166.3 points
4. Larva (Z): 1164.7 points
5. Last (T): 1150.6 points
6. BeSt (P): 1141.9 points
7. EffOrt (Z): 1140.6 points
8. Rain (P): 1137.9 points
9. sSak (T): 1135.1 points
10. Mind (T): 1132.1 points
I'm not sure whether you put higher emphasis on competitive LAN tournaments like the ASL, or online sponsored matches.
The equilibrium between the three races is ever-changing, and is heavily influenced by the form of certain players, influx of new talent and ideas, advances in the meta-game, and the map pool. We're not dealing with a fixed problem here. However, it is almost an irrefutable fact that while the protoss and zerg race had points in history where they were quite clearly the worst performing races, the terran race has been relatively free from such lows throughout history, at least after BoxeR rose to power. BoxeR won his first OGN StarLeague title (as well as numerous other tournaments forgotten by the people) before the infamous 1.08 patch, so I think his rise to prominence was helped by the patch, but not a by-product of it.
It's not just the current state of the balance people have issues with, it's the fact that it's been on on-going issue that lasts for over a decade. Historically speaking, it's a fact that the terran race has done better than the other two races. It's also a fact that Flash, who also happens to be a terran player, is leading the competition on all fronts (a coincidence that dates back for years). I personally think there are two possibilites for this:
1) Either there is an inherent gaming imbalance in favour of the terran race at the highest level.
2) Or the terran race has as a whole been ahead of the curve in terms of development, specifically on the style of map pools we have come to terms with as being adequate for competitive play, for whatever reasons.
I personally lean towards the latter, because if I had total control over the map pools, I could imagine a scenario where Flash, or any terran prodigy that comes after him never wins another tournament ever again. Even if there is a problem, I'm of the opinion that we should be open to recourses other than changing the game itself, it's been done that way for years, and just like players have advanced over the years, map making has been an artform that has been worked on for over a decade also. The search for the perfectly balanced map at the competitive level has been the holy grail for all map makers. I trust that we are closer to it than when the scene was at its infancy. I have trust in the art of map making.
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On September 19 2017 18:35 Jumperer wrote:
I have revisited this thread and have gains new idea retarding the balance situation.
First, I thought T was the hardest race at the highest level, but after reading TT1's post I change my mind. Z is the hardest because hatcheries are spread throughout the map. Lurkers and defilers require extensive micro in ZvT not to mention all the flankings you have to do. Zerg also doesn't have enough control groups for 50000 units.
I still think SCV are OP at 60 hp. People are missing the point with their argument. Scv destroys probe and drone in 1v1 situation. People complaining about SCV dying while building a building is stupid. It literally never happens with proper micro. All you have to do is get an scv to chase a probe/drone and then replace the damaged scv with a new SCV. Hell, you can even repair. In SC2 SCV has 50 HP for a reason.
Secondly, everyone in this thread universally agreed that vulture is OP. Fastest unit in the game that can kill workers extremely fast with 3 mini nukes for 75 mineral? WTF. It also builds fast. It needs a nerf.
Furthermore, 200/200 3-3 terran mech is broken against every race and requires way too hard of an effort for other races to kill it. Terran can just brute force while controlling vessel. It's also not hard to move around the map using around 5-6 hotkeys compared to zerg 200/200.
Letmelose's data suggests that terran has been broken since 1.08. All the bonjwa with the exception of Savior has been terran. How can one race dominate for over such a long period of time across different era if the game is truly balanced?
In conclusion, terran is broken, there is no denying it. There may have been period of time where other races have slight upperhand due to adaptation/innovation, but once terran adapted to that adaptation it's simply game over for other races. The longer a pro map is in the cycle, the better the terran perform since it's the best defensive race combined with the best 200/200 army. One can only come up with so many creative timing attacks and mindgames before it get downloaded.
BTW, tank's range are broken as fuck, but nobody talks about it because the range is OP to the point of it being iconic.
Thanks for the insight. I can't believe your post isn't satire.
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TLADT24920 Posts
Thread ran its course unfortunately.
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EPT
