EPTAll time BW player rankings/a balance discussion - Page 8
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NotJumperer
United States1371 Posts
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Freezard
Sweden1011 Posts
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Eywa-
Canada4876 Posts
On September 12 2017 20:07 Jumperer wrote: First of all I would like to begin by saying that I welcome a balance patch. If anything else it would make the game interesting, arn't you all tired of watching the same shit over and over? Zerg badly needs help in ZvT and protoss in PvZ. As for boxer being a fraud. What the fuck, boxer is a great player and a legend both for what he did inside and outside the game. Guy made 7 major finals, won 2 and lost 2 game 5s in 2 series that could've gone either ways. despite the fact that he can't "macro". his "cheese" are creative strategies and his games are fun to watch. He innovated the fuck out of starcraft and that's how he dominated, not with physical mechanic not with APM, but with him staying ahead of the meta and doing something creative that no one has ever seen before. Hell, Terran was considered garbage in korea before he come a long. Of course, he couldn't compete with modern players who are younger, hungier, and has better mechanic. It happens to all great players in every sports. The fact that boxer was still somewhat keeping up with them is an amazing feat in itself. Reminds me of Arnold in terminator 2/3. As for whether or not terran is imba, You can read my opinion here http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/526131-elephant-question-in-the-room-is-terran-op PvZ is bullshit though and I will tell you why the matchup is bullshit. TT1 said protoss win late game but I disagree, Protoss only win super late game, we're talking like 40 mins. Zerg destroys protoss once he gets hive. You need dragoons to fight lurkers but plague and dark swarm render dragoon useless. If toss fucks up and lose a base at that stage its also gg for protoss. Crackling under darkswarm kill your base in 5 seconds. Protoss dont have that ability because zerg's ability to defend after hive is ridiculous. nydus canel lurker sunken spore mass crackling reinforcement along with defiler. You have to grind them out as protoss. Lurker is bullshit pvz especially combined with spore and sunken. First you need to tech to observer which cost a shit ton of gas just to see lurkers and then you have to micro that observer so it doesnt get killed by hydra/muta/scourge/anything. You also cant kill that unit effectively, dragoons need 50 shots to kill lurkers and usually dragoons cant get an angle where you can snipe lurker one by one. We don't have OP sieged tank to deal with this bullshit. Storm used to kill lurker in one hit(though they can unburrow and save it) but then some genius at blizzard changed it in patch 1.08 so now you need 2 storms to kill one lurker. You also need storm however to fight the rest of the zerg army. Lurkers dont even need to be micro, you just set it down and watch it kill 6000 zealots. If the spatans in 300 had lurkers they would've conquered the world. This is how bs the matchup is, goddamn shuttle speed and observer speed cost less than zerglings speed. No protoss in the history of starcraft with the exception of bisu can beat the top zergs straight up. Nal_rA was considered a god at that matchup and even he could only manage 60% winrate at his PvZ peak. Now that I think about it patch 1.08 made the game more imbalanced, look at this bullshit. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Patch_1.08 PvZ kind of feels like you're imminently going to lose, and then either you actually do lose, or the Zerg randomly says "gg" and leaves because you outlasted him. | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3095 Posts
On Gold Rush he was getting droped by the Zerg (I think it was ggaemo) and it looked like he was on the back foot defending non stop. then out of no where the Zerg types 'gg'. I think he just defended and rebuilt bases real quick and outlasted the Zerg he was facing. The Gold Rush map is crazy. | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
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Eywa-
Canada4876 Posts
On September 12 2017 23:46 Dazed. wrote: Maps factor in. It wasnt discovered until 2005 onward that pvz was balanced better if protoss had more gases, previously it was thought protoss were benefited for more minerals. So protoss were getting trashed by zergs, and most of the maps then also favoured terran [in everything]. A lot of map seasons have favoured terran strongly. I think the problem with map making is a map either: A) Favors Terran or B) Is extremely boring | ||
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_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
On September 11 2017 16:38 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: To paraphrase Grandmaster Artosis, the entirety of Terran strategy for every matchup can be summarized as waiting to get enough tanks to kill an entire army in one volley. Even the short-sighted and simple Terran players can recognize such a great imbalance. But I have to admit, having the fastest unit in the game on only the 2nd tier of tech with a short build time, that can shoot fragmentation grenades capable of vaporizing all peons, zerglings, zealots, defilers, and high and dark templar in seconds, and can even shoot these grenades backwards without losing acceleration, AND can shit out three mini-nukes that burrow into the ground only to pop out at the perfect time and seek out an enemy unit at an inescapable speed, gives siege tanks and their arclite cannons quite a run for their money. Ah, how could I forget their cost? Let's make a list of units (excluding peons) that are cheaper than vultures: --Zergling --Marine That was easy. hmm, you forgot terran have the highest range in just - ground to ground, ground to air, and with yamato (which is the most powerful spell in the game) air to air, air to ground  Give me a unit that autorecharges plasma shield/hitpoints and im fine.Im positive for slight balance change and even new ideas and units. Thinking about remastered they couldve fixed at least the bugged AI of the goons, since toss is the weakest race. Change may occur if blizzard have interest in growing bw, however i doubt interest will sustain after the initial remastered hype fades away. Maybe in the future we will have sc bw 2? that would be super great. Or modded versions of the game will start getting popularity? Which is more likely due to RTS genre fading in the course of time. | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1548 Posts
On September 12 2017 23:52 Eywa- wrote: I think the problem with map making is a map either: A) Favors Terran or B) Is extremely boring That's not true, I would say that maps that favors terran are 4 poses maps like FS, CB where you can get an easy third, fourth and fifth, actually it's so easy that usually they can even take them at the same time vs zerg during mech switch. Not a chance you do this on 3 poses maps like Tau Cross or Aztec. Tau Cross is by far the most balanced and entertaining map you can have and it is not Terran favored. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
Give me a unit that autorecharges plasma shield and im fine. You mean a shield battery? That's a building! | ||
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_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
On September 13 2017 01:02 Qikz wrote: You mean a shield battery? That's a building! It needs to grow some legs then and autorecharge my army :D As i think more on the balance subject it appears in my mind that the protoss race just became uneficient as the years passed, because players learned how to counter most of the things in the protoss arsenal. While making these unefecient stuff are at high price to build, leaving you without options if fails. Im having in mind shuttle/reaver harass. I cant recall much successful usage of that in the last 1-2 years, most of i remember is fail or just doing ok damage(corsair reaver completelly died in pvz). While when u dont succeed u are far behind or sometimes instant gg. What are the effective ways of harass in pvz, or pvt? Dark templars, high templars? It became a piece of cake for T and Z. Reavers and dark templars have their best usage in mirror matchup... Zerg can switch from unit to unit fast and easy, while Protoss race sluggish build transition many times lead to defeat, as toss doesnt have the terran defensive advantage. Air to air only unit play a main role in PvZ, cosidering how unefecient air to air unit is. Even if a protoss deal a massive damage with corsairs that cannot possibly kill a Zerg. While terran have the choise of Marines with medic which can insta kill zerg if hes not top notch in sunken timing and muta micro, goliaths, valkyres or wraiths. Can a toss invest in base defense efectively against mutas? No, canons are huge and cost 150 minerals, while ter can build turrets for half of the price and build time and can place 2 to 4 turrets in a place where cannon spawns. With that in mind i can rely my conclusion to 2 main points: 1. Protoss units and tech are too costly for a balance. 2. Protoss is the most unflexible race of the three. I see cost reduction as a best solution. | ||
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Lorch
Germany3679 Posts
I know this is completely off topic, but I'd just like to point out that one can clearly see Kim Carrier in this video. I thought he was done with starcraft? Either way, I'm super happy to see him. I will never forget his tears at the Tving OSL finals and that epic speech to end professional brood war. He'll always be my favorite Korean caster. | ||
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Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
On September 12 2017 20:07 Jumperer wrote: First of all I would like to begin by saying that I welcome a balance patch. If anything else it would make the game interesting, arn't you all tired of watching the same shit over and over? Zerg badly needs help in ZvT and protoss in PvZ. As for boxer being a fraud. What the fuck, boxer is a great player and a legend both for what he did inside and outside the game. Guy made 7 major finals, won 2 and lost 2 game 5s in 2 series that could've gone either ways. despite the fact that he can't "macro". his "cheese" are creative strategies and his games are fun to watch. He innovated the fuck out of starcraft and that's how he dominated, not with physical mechanic not with APM, but with him staying ahead of the meta and doing something creative that no one has ever seen before. Hell, Terran was considered garbage in korea before he come a long. Of course, he couldn't compete with modern players who are younger, hungier, and has better mechanic. It happens to all great players in every sports. The fact that boxer was still somewhat keeping up with them is an amazing feat in itself. Reminds me of Arnold in terminator 2/3. As for whether or not terran is imba, You can read my opinion here http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/526131-elephant-question-in-the-room-is-terran-op PvZ is bullshit though and I will tell you why the matchup is bullshit. TT1 said protoss win late game but I disagree, Protoss only win super late game, we're talking like 40 mins. Zerg destroys protoss once he gets hive. You need dragoons to fight lurkers but plague and dark swarm render dragoon useless. If toss fucks up and lose a base at that stage its also gg for protoss. Crackling under darkswarm kill your base in 5 seconds. Protoss dont have that ability because zerg's ability to defend after hive is ridiculous. nydus canel lurker sunken spore mass crackling reinforcement along with defiler. You have to grind them out as protoss. Lurker is bullshit pvz especially combined with spore and sunken. First you need to tech to observer which cost a shit ton of gas just to see lurkers and then you have to micro that observer so it doesnt get killed by hydra/muta/scourge/anything. You also cant kill that unit effectively, dragoons need 50 shots to kill lurkers and usually dragoons cant get an angle where you can snipe lurker one by one. We don't have OP sieged tank to deal with this bullshit. Storm used to kill lurker in one hit(though they can unburrow and save it) but then some genius at blizzard changed it in patch 1.08 so now you need 2 storms to kill one lurker. You also need storm however to fight the rest of the zerg army. Lurkers dont even need to be micro, you just set it down and watch it kill 6000 zealots. If the spatans in 300 had lurkers they would've conquered the world. This is how bs the matchup is, goddamn shuttle speed and observer speed cost less than zerglings speed. No protoss in the history of starcraft with the exception of bisu can beat the top zergs straight up. Nal_rA was considered a god at that matchup and even he could only manage 60% winrate at his PvZ peak. Now that I think about it patch 1.08 made the game more imbalanced, look at this bullshit. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Patch_1.08 idk what the heck you are saying ablut pvz balance. PvZ balance only matters at high level you toss fools. You guys have the easiest time to win on ladder. Go look it up on starlog.gg and stop complaining. | ||
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Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
On September 13 2017 01:26 _Animus_ wrote: It needs to grow some legs then and autorecharge my army :D As i think more on the balance subject it appears in my mind that the protoss race just became uneficient as the years passed, because players learned how to counter most of the things in the protoss arsenal. While making these unefecient stuff are at high price to build, leaving you without options if fails. Im having in mind shuttle/reaver harass. I cant recall much successful usage of that in the last 1-2 years, most of i remember is fail or just doing ok damage(corsair reaver completelly died in pvz). While when u dont succeed u are far behind or sometimes instant gg. What are the effective ways of harass in pvz, or pvt? Dark templars, high templars? It became a piece of cake for T and Z. Reavers and dark templars have their best usage in mirror matchup... Zerg can switch from unit to unit fast and easy, while Protoss race sluggish build transition many times lead to defeat, as toss doesnt have the terran defensive advantage. Air to air only unit play a main role in PvZ, cosidering how unefecient air to air unit is. Even if a protoss deal a massive damage with corsairs that cannot possibly kill a Zerg. While terran have the choise of Marines with medic which can insta kill zerg if hes not top notch in sunken timing and muta micro, goliaths, valkyres or wraiths. Can a toss invest in base defense efectively against mutas? No, canons are huge and cost 150 minerals, while ter can build turrets for half of the price and build time and can place 2 to 4 turrets in a place where cannon spawns. With that in mind i can rely my conclusion to 2 main points: 1. Protoss units and tech are too costly for a balance. 2. Protoss is the most unflexible race of the three. I see cost reduction as a best solution. im sorry but toss is best race at low/mid level and you shouldn't be complaining since it doesn't really apply at level you just macro and win o.o. Once it gets to high level 2800++ now you have to start thinkin extra hard and do some brilliant strats that rain/mini/snow/bisu doing that have them in top10/15 elo. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On September 13 2017 01:26 _Animus_ wrote: It needs to grow some legs then and autorecharge my army :D As i think more on the balance subject it appears in my mind that the protoss race just became uneficient as the years passed, because players learned how to counter most of the things in the protoss arsenal. While making these unefecient stuff are at high price to build, leaving you without options if fails. Im having in mind shuttle/reaver harass. I cant recall much successful usage of that in the last 1-2 years, most of i remember is fail or just doing ok damage(corsair reaver completelly died in pvz). While when u dont succeed u are far behind or sometimes instant gg. What are the effective ways of harass in pvz, or pvt? Dark templars, high templars? It became a piece of cake for T and Z. Reavers and dark templars have their best usage in mirror matchup... Zerg can switch from unit to unit fast and easy, while Protoss race sluggish build transition many times lead to defeat, as toss doesnt have the terran defensive advantage. Air to air only unit play a main role in PvZ, cosidering how unefecient air to air unit is. Even if a protoss deal a massive damage with corsairs that cannot possibly kill a Zerg. While terran have the choise of Marines with medic which can insta kill zerg if hes not top notch in sunken timing and muta micro, goliaths, valkyres or wraiths. Can a toss invest in base defense efectively against mutas? No, canons are huge and cost 150 minerals, while ter can build turrets for half of the price and build time and can place 2 to 4 turrets in a place where cannon spawns. With that in mind i can rely my conclusion to 2 main points: 1. Protoss units and tech are too costly for a balance. 2. Protoss is the most unflexible race of the three. I see cost reduction as a best solution. I... I don't see how you could ever make protoss units cheaper outside of scouts (and even scouts are crazy good already) without breaking the entire game. I don't understand how you could possibly say Protoss is the most unflexible. You have literally the best air units in the game (carrriers) and gateway armies can kill every other army imaginable. | ||
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Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
On September 11 2017 20:42 ProMeTheus112 wrote: I think : medics heal too fast, tanks cost too little supply, vultures kill workers too quickly. Could make vultures deal.. 18 dmg? or 16? (3 hits to lings) Or increase hp of workers a little?^^ wouldnt be bad imo. DTs probably still should kill workers in one hit.. however having no notification is "sagi" ^^ so maybe not^^ actually I think they don't need to kill workers in one hit. They only feel weak in midgame, when detected, but what can you do. Some more hp or shield? also I think : hydras are too weak vs M&M (because of medics) and perhaps against mutalisks. I think Mutalisks should probably be medium size. I think reavers also kill workers too quickly (and marines), I would say reduce their aoe size and def make the scarab more reliable would be good imo.. too random. If I would say anything else is too strong with P, maybe storm damage is too fast, idk. Make it last longer and same dmg or smtg. It kills workers too quickly too, and M&M. Qikz : risking a balance patch : I don't know. I think the game can be improved for sure, but of course doing it right is hard and there is a risk of not quite doing it right. Since its a creative thing there are many ways to do it, so it's hard to agree. It requires the designers to have strong understanding and to make strong coherent choices that really improve the game as a whole. Also problem of replays that stop working, which can be fixed if the game will load stuff from previous patch after recognizing replay version. also I think Battlecruiser could use a dmg increase.. guardians and devourers smtg? more hp for guardians? a little more dmg for devourers? and scouts cheaper at least or more ground dmg or.. free sight upgrade.. I think swarm is too invincible, I would say maybe change it to increase armor of units or smtg. I'm only on page three so I have yet to see where this discussion has led, but dude, changing this much at once would be an absolute complete disaster. On September 12 2017 00:26 Shinokuki wrote: don't get why people keep posting this. This guy has no idea what he is talking about. These koreans are joking around and appealing to casual base who has been calling terrans taesagi because of flash.... There is no taesagi according to top zergs. They all say other terrans can be destroyed except flash. Also balance doesn't even affect us amyway. Protoss should shut the hell up. They are beneficiaries of low ceiling requirement. Its only when you reach 2500+ mmr does it suddenly become hard. Thats when you just dont 1a2a3a4a with maximized effiency anymore. You actually have to do what other two races have been doung to win PvT is actually the matchup where 1a2a3a is in fact the absolute least viable. I think it's pretty balanced on modern maps, but the 1a2a3a meme is at the very worst less true than tesagi. | ||
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Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
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Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
for example you could ban zealots and dragoons and then rush early space marines to kill protoss. or zerg could play mass defiler with support after banning dark archon (who feedback spellcasters) and science vessels or protoss could ban missile turrets and rush air vs terran (scouts anyone??) thx for reading | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
On September 13 2017 04:38 Ancestral wrote: I'm only on page three so I have yet to see where this discussion has led, but dude, changing this much at once would be an absolute complete disaster. thanks for your encouraging remark but you're not even saying why so when I read it, it only feels bad and that's all... I put some thought into this, I'm not saying everything I suggest is great but make an effort at least yo. | ||
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Cryoc
Germany909 Posts
On September 13 2017 01:26 _Animus_ wrote: It needs to grow some legs then and autorecharge my army :D As i think more on the balance subject it appears in my mind that the protoss race just became uneficient as the years passed, because players learned how to counter most of the things in the protoss arsenal. While making these unefecient stuff are at high price to build, leaving you without options if fails. Im having in mind shuttle/reaver harass. I cant recall much successful usage of that in the last 1-2 years, most of i remember is fail or just doing ok damage(corsair reaver completelly died in pvz). While when u dont succeed u are far behind or sometimes instant gg. What are the effective ways of harass in pvz, or pvt? Dark templars, high templars? It became a piece of cake for T and Z. Reavers and dark templars have their best usage in mirror matchup... Zerg can switch from unit to unit fast and easy, while Protoss race sluggish build transition many times lead to defeat, as toss doesnt have the terran defensive advantage. Air to air only unit play a main role in PvZ, cosidering how unefecient air to air unit is. Even if a protoss deal a massive damage with corsairs that cannot possibly kill a Zerg. While terran have the choise of Marines with medic which can insta kill zerg if hes not top notch in sunken timing and muta micro, goliaths, valkyres or wraiths. Can a toss invest in base defense efectively against mutas? No, canons are huge and cost 150 minerals, while ter can build turrets for half of the price and build time and can place 2 to 4 turrets in a place where cannon spawns. With that in mind i can rely my conclusion to 2 main points: 1. Protoss units and tech are too costly for a balance. 2. Protoss is the most unflexible race of the three. I see cost reduction as a best solution. Dunno, what game you are playing, but in BW cannons occupy the same space as turrets and always deal full damage (and can hit ground!), while turrets deal only half damage vs mutas. So you actually have more firepower vs mutas as Protoss and don't need army supply to defend a base vs ground harrass, which makes you flexible. | ||
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