EPTAll time BW player rankings/a balance discussion - Page 6
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Mizconout
49 Posts
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AntiHack
Switzerland553 Posts
If we assume that versatility and appealing to geniuses is tesagi... yes the game is imbalanced. Some football clubs appeal to football genius players, can we state that those clubs are fundamentally imba? hmm Terran is not imbalanced, terran just have the best players. | ||
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castleeMg
Canada757 Posts
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reincremate
China2210 Posts
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Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
On September 12 2017 04:37 Kare wrote: The washed up Stork even took out Last(the second best Terran in the world) in ASL today, after Last was more greedy than scrooge mcduck and got away with it, Stork suicided his speed shuttle with reaver, got crushed by the timing push, lost 2 bases, and still ended up winning the game with 200/200 supply compared to Last's 100. You oversimplify to the point of misrepresentation. It was equal parts series of errors for Last and cunning from Stork. Last missed that 1'o expansion after seeing nothing in the nat. Then he focused too much on the original nat attack, helped no less by Stork's misdirection, that Stork's lone hero DT was having a tank party all by himself. Stork was a huge disadvantage at that point that suicide and evening things at zero was the best move, and so he did. Last restarted with zero tanks and 2.5 based. While Stork rolled in with 4 base eco. | ||
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Luddite
United States2315 Posts
On September 12 2017 00:38 Chef wrote: I don't think maps affecting balance is an inherent issue. I would always expect a flat featureless map to be imbalanced. I have written about this somewhere before, but one of the larger issues is that interesting, featureful maps tend to favour Terran. Terran like narrow passages, Terran like cliffs, Terran can do everything they want on 3 gas. And our big problem comes in when we realise Protoss like narrow passages vs Zerg, but wide areas vs Terran. Protoss like easy bases vs Zerg, but dislike Terran having easy bases vs Protoss. So whenever we try to help Protoss vs Zerg, we have trouble to not hurt Protoss vs Terran. Whenever we try to help Zerg vs Terran, we have trouble not to hurt Protoss vs Zerg. Protoss are the trouble race because they want one thing vs Zerg and another vs Terran. Terran want the same thing vs Zerg and Protoss, Zerg want the same thing vs Protoss and Terran. Zerg have less trouble vs Terran than Protoss have trouble vs Zerg, so we always end up doing things that help Protoss a little vs Zerg that give Zerg a harder time vs Terran, rather than things to help Zerg vs Terran that would make Protoss vs Zerg even more challenging. If you can't think of strategies to solve this problem of how the races function, you can't solve the slight imbalance. You can try to think of units Protoss use vs Zerg but not Terran, units Zerg use vs Terran but not Protoss, units Terran use vs Protoss but not Zerg, but you're sort of ignoring a fundamental issue. We could make corsairs accel faster or have higher top speed so protoss lose them less vs scourge, we could make lurker aspect research faster so the 5 rax timing isn't as strong, but these changes are too specific to what is a more general problem. IMO basically the only way to solve this completely is if you decide to make maps that are only meant for one matchup and mirrors. PvZ maps, TvZ maps, PvT maps. Then you eliminate the frustration of dealing with the Protoss. But that isn't as romantic or fun, and frankly that slight imbalance is just a part of the game that makes it so endearing to fans. We want good representation among the races, but we also love a good underdog story, where players are forced to pull out special strategies to deal with a map that is not balanced in a matchup that is difficult. Normally the better players just wins with better mechanics, but in the finals you see two players at the top of their form, and you see something more special. I think you would lose something about BW if you tried to make it perfectly balanced, because if you did why would you ever need a Boxer, a Nal Ra, a Zero or any player known primarily for creativity? Much motivation for surprising the opponent would be gone if things were completely fair. I like this post a lot. Gets to the heart of why balancing this game is so tricky. Do you think the race balance would be overall better in proleague than in the individual leagues? Because there, teams can choose who to play on a given map, so if a map is really bad for a given race they just wouldn't play it. That's sort of like your idea of having maps meant only for one matchup. Admittedly not every team could field top players from all 3 races to cover all the maps, but it still seems like you'd get better balance data there than in the individual leagues, where you have no control over what maps you play, and one bad map/game is all it takes to eliminate a player. My feeling is that yes, Terran is the best overall, but only by a tiny amount. People make the mistake of comparing races unit by unit- like "zealots cost 100 but only do 16 damage, while vultures cost 75 and do 20 damage + mines, so Terran imba". Terran probably does have the best units, but this game is more than just units. The best feature of Protoss is its bases- they mine faster, one probe builds everything, cannons defend everything, buildings are compact, and there are lots of cheesy proxy possibilities. The best feature of Zerg is the hatchery/larva system, which lets them effortlessly switch what kinds of units they produce, store up larva for a sudden burst of production (like the first muta group), recover quickly if they're macro slips, and hide/disguise what kind of tech they're going for. It's hard to quantify this stuff vs the dps and cost effectiveness of Terran units, but it really does make a big difference, and for all levels of players. | ||
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playa
United States1284 Posts
On September 12 2017 05:23 tanngard wrote: How is reaching OSL finals in 2004 and 2005 "early success"? How is innovationg and revolutionising tactical play and micro lead to "pioneer of cheese"? "I hate how early success in a game cements you as an all time great." Should we not honour and respect the people that laid important stepping stones for everyone else to take advantage of? Do you think it was easy to cut through the jungle of early BW and find a successful path to victory? To be an original thinker and find solutions in the chaos? A guy posted after you, saying Boxer should be number 1 or 2, overall. What I know I can say... is he did absolutely nothing since I started playing the game. All he did was ruin games. Omg, there would be so much hype going into every single boxer game. And what would he do? Oh, he would try to proxy rax Oov and everyone else. Casuals love this guy, but anyone who actually appreciates good SC probably hates this guy. The guy couldn't even make an A-team on any team, once people figured out how to stop all-ins. He had zero macro and his games were pathetic. So sick of early success trumping everything. Flash could dominate for the next 20 years straight and someone would say, hey how about that one guy who won a championship while no one knew what APM was. How bout that guy. Man he was the best ever. Give me a break. So insulting to everyone that plays Terran. No one even remembers Midas, and Boxer could only dream of being that good... I don't know how these guys don't smack talk him. I just did a quick tally of the last 2 pages of his TLPD stats. 30-50 his last 80 games. Overall, he lives off T vs Z and has a sub 50% in T vs P (hard matchup, though). I'd love to know his proxy rax stats. Give maxblack a time machine and he might be the next BW Bonjwa. | ||
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Lorch
Germany3668 Posts
I'm not even saying that boxer is the best ever, I would say nada and flash are really the only two guys in the race for that title, but give the man some damn respect and don't treat him like trash. And this is even ignoring everything he did for the game as an esport, there is a reason they call him the godfather of esports... | ||
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playa
United States1284 Posts
On September 12 2017 11:40 Lorch wrote: Oh how I hate this "only macro games are real/good games" attitude. If you love starcraft you love all kind of games, not just the ones you deem skillful. Boxers strategies are legendary and he managed to stay a relevant player throughout the ~10 year run he had as a professional brood war player, and last time I checked he spent the vast majority of that on the a team of skt/air force ace. For how much you seem to admire oov, you should love boxer just as much for discovering oov. There is a reason oov was sad about beating boxer in the osl finals... I'm not even saying that boxer is the best ever, I would say nada and flash are really the only two guys in the race for that title, but give the man some damn respect and don't treat him like trash. And this is even ignoring everything he did for the game as an esport, there is a reason they call him the godfather of esports... Here is the problem... Anyone can dominate early on if they choose to all-in every game. It takes more time to figure out how to stop them than it does to execute them. That's why Huk didn't own everyone for life. Once people figure out how to stop all-ins, you have to be able to macro to some degree or else you have to retire. The greatest player ever isn't forced to retire... All of you guys should be ashamed. Short sample or not, Fantasy managed to achieve over 60% in every matchup and was pretty much the only Terran consistently taking games off Flash, and we're just going to claim Boxer is better cause he did some cool stuff. That's sad. Going by overall winrates would be a much better indicator than introducing RIDICULOUS amounts of bias and fan girlism. Anytime you're ranking Boxer ahead of real players, it's time for a better metric. | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On September 12 2017 01:54 playa wrote: Boxer is the most overrated player ever. I hate how early success in a game cements you as an all time great. May as well say Huk is the best SC 2 player ever. I'd even put Midas above Boxer. But, then again, I can't think of many Terrans I wouldn't put ahead of Boxer. Guy belongs on an honorary list. Pioneers of cheese or something. I think Oov is the second best Terran, by far, but I can see how it can go either way. Protoss sucks cause only one person has ever been able to play P vs Z. Hard to win things when you have to dodge a matchup. Few get that lucky in brackets. I think this is pretty damn unfair to BoxeR. Pure skill, of course he doesn't matchup, but his impact on the game is so far above someone like Midas (who was a really good terran), that it's just absurd to even compare them. It's like dismissing early scientific or mathematical pioneers just because some random phd student in their field likely knows more about the subject than they ever did. I kind of agree with the PvZ bit (although I think Nal_rA knew how to play PvZ, but wasn't the mechanical monster that someone like Bisu is). EDIT: Also, it's been a while, but my memory of the Boxer vs Oov OSL final was that it was an incredibly close series, and that's edging towards modern era. Anyway, greatest ever he definitely wasn't. Most important starcraft player, however, almost definitely? | ||
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playa
United States1284 Posts
On September 12 2017 11:52 Liquid`Jinro wrote: I think this is pretty damn unfair to BoxeR. Pure skill, of course he doesn't matchup, but his impact on the game is so far above someone like Midas (who was a really good terran), that it's just absurd to even compare them. It's like dismissing early scientific or mathematical pioneers just because some random phd student in their field likely knows more about the subject than they ever did. I kind of agree with the PvZ bit (although I think Nal_rA knew how to play PvZ, but wasn't the mechanical monster that someone like Bisu is). As someone who got into SC later, I just think it's SUPER unfair to act like those who won first are the best ever, meanwhile players like Flash were like 10 years old and hadn't even played. It's not fair. It's like if I just started playing SC 2 and got top 10 GM, I don't want to hear about a guy who has played 10 years and is rank 50000 now, but is the greatest ever since he was rank 5 in Beta. No one is copying boxer. No one. People are trying to win games. If there is ANYONE who should have "what they've done for the game" strengthen their position on the podium, it's Oov. This is a macro game, and he was the best at his time, by far. He's the guy who was inspiring everyone.... He's the guy who was a lot better than Boxer and had even more of an impact... yet... Boxer won first. As for Boxer vs Oov, I'm still peeved. So peeved. There was the dumbest amount of hype ever for Boxer vs Oov, on rush hour, and I believe Boxer tried to in base proxy rax Oov. Every game, you'd fool yourself. You'd fall for the hype. You'd be thinking, I must be an idiot, cause I'm pretty sure Boxer is just going to cheese my fav player, and it will be a lame 4 minute game. But, you'd think why would everyone suck this guy off so much and be so hyped for it if that would happen? Without fail, epic fail. Hate boxer fans more than anything. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On September 12 2017 11:59 playa wrote: As someone who got into SC later, I just think it's SUPER unfair to act like those who won first are the best ever, meanwhile players like Flash were like 10 years old and hadn't even played. It's not fair. It's like if I just started playing SC 2 and got top 10 GM, I don't want to hear about a guy who has played 10 years and is rank 50000 now, but is the greatest ever since he was rank 5 in Beta. No one is copying boxer. No one. People are trying to win games. If there is ANYONE who should have "what they've done for the game" strengthen their position on the podium, it's Oov. This is a macro game, and he was the best at his time, by far. He's the guy who was inspiring everyone.... He's the guy who was a lot better than Boxer and had even more of an impact... yet... Boxer won first. As for Boxer vs Oov, I'm still peeved. So peeved. There was the dumbest amount of hype ever for Boxer vs Oov, on rush hour, and I believe Boxer tried to in base proxy rax Oov. Every game, you'd fool yourself. You'd fall for the hype. You'd be thinking, I must be an idiot, cause I'm pretty sure Boxer is just going to cheese my fav player, and it will be a lame 4 minute game. But, you'd think why would everyone suck this guy off so much and be so hyped for it if that would happen? Without fail, epic fail. Hate boxer fans more than anything. Professional Brood War reached its highest point with BoxeR. More tournaments were hosted because of BoxeR. More companies took interest in professional Brood War because of BoxeR. More people became aware of competitive Brood War because of BoxeR than any other single player in history. Presidents, celebrities, the military, and multi-billionaires started to care about e-Sports because of BoxeR. BoxeR could have rested on his laurels, but did everything he could to create a legacy that went beyond himself. Everybody sucks given enough time and number of potential usurpers. BoxeR ensured his fate as someone who would eventually suck by actively promoting the structure of professional teams, doing everything he could to make competitive Brood War a mainstream content, and inspiring a whole generation young Korean adults to try to be like him, or maybe even become greater than him. Being outshined was his legacy. If Flash and BoxeR switched their date of birth, I would be willing to bet any number of money that we wouldn't even be having this wretched conversation right now. One of the legacies created by BoxeR he personally wouldn't be proud of, unfortunately. | ||
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reincremate
China2210 Posts
On September 12 2017 11:59 playa wrote: As someone who got into SC later, I just think it's SUPER unfair to act like those who won first are the best ever, meanwhile players like Flash were like 10 years old and hadn't even played. It's not fair. It's like if I just started playing SC 2 and got top 10 GM, I don't want to hear about a guy who has played 10 years and is rank 50000 now, but is the greatest ever since he was rank 5 in Beta. No one is copying boxer. No one. People are trying to win games. If there is ANYONE who should have "what they've done for the game" strengthen their position on the podium, it's Oov. This is a macro game, and he was the best at his time, by far. He's the guy who was inspiring everyone.... He's the guy who was a lot better than Boxer and had even more of an impact... yet... Boxer won first. As for Boxer vs Oov, I'm still peeved. So peeved. There was the dumbest amount of hype ever for Boxer vs Oov, on rush hour, and I believe Boxer tried to in base proxy rax Oov. Every game, you'd fool yourself. You'd fall for the hype. You'd be thinking, I must be an idiot, cause I'm pretty sure Boxer is just going to cheese my fav player, and it will be a lame 4 minute game. But, you'd think why would everyone suck this guy off so much and be so hyped for it if that would happen? Without fail, epic fail. Hate boxer fans more than anything. Like I said, Boxer pretty much singlehandedly forged the Starcraft progaming scene and decided not to overdo his awesomeness lest he turn the whole thing into a fringe personality cult for one dude, so he showed off some badass micro that everyone tried to mimic for years to follow, won a few tournaments, laid some foundational building blocks for the future strategic meta (without revealing too much, thus allowing other players to slowly discover new aspects of the game and further its development) and then continued to play entertaining Starcraft without owning everyone too hard by winning too many games, especially the poor Protosses who were struggling. It's not just that he could have won at least 20 OSLs if he ketp playing Protoss or if the map-makers didn't try to rig the game against him by adding silly gimmicks like easily holdable natural expansions and maps with third bases, it's that he didn't need to. Instead he managed to have the much more significant accomplishment of letting the world see what real uber micro looks like before it realized "oh wait we can just make more barracks and win by making bigger armies lol". By the time that realization set in, it was already done; the beauty of the bunker rush and marines dancing against lurkers had already become inextricable threads woven into the fabric of the esports universe. That's why Slayer_S_Boxer is the greatest of all time (I mean oov, nada, flash, fantasy are all alright, I guess, but you can't even compare them to Boxer) | ||
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Lorch
Germany3668 Posts
Every single male Korean has to go to the military. In a game like Starcraft where everyone practices so much, 2 years of no PC can often be the end of a career. The only three ways I know to get out of military service are: Leave Korea and never return, have a health condition (like saviors leg) or win an olympic gold medal. Boxer created Airforce Ace and in doing so gave progamers a chance to keep playing and practising during their military service. That to me will always be Boxers greatest achievement. And probably the saddest thing to be destroyed by blizzard + match fixing. | ||
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reincremate
China2210 Posts
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playa
United States1284 Posts
On September 12 2017 12:15 Letmelose wrote: Professional Brood War reached its highest point with BoxeR. More tournaments were hosted because of BoxeR. More companies took interest in professional Brood War because of BoxeR. More people became aware of competitive Brood War because of BoxeR than any other single player in history. BoxeR could have rested on his laurels, but did everything he could to create a legacy that went beyond himself. Everybody sucks given enough time and number of potential usurpers. BoxeR ensured his fate as someone who would suck by actively promoting the structure of professional teams, and inspiring a whole generation young Korean adults to try to be like him, or maybe even become greater than him. Being outshined was his legacy. If Flash and BoxeR switched their date of birth. I would be willing to bet any number of money that we wouldn't even be having this conversation right now. First replay I was shown was of Boxer. I had no idea there was a pro scene. Like, I get it. But, I still think it's really insulting to act like he was a better player than... pretty much any other Terran. It's disingenuous. I watched the video that detailed the ELO rankings from 1999-2012. I was expecting to see Boxer owning every early year. Man... you can't even watch that video and come away feeling like Boxer was any better/different than anyone else. Who I was surprised by was Nal_Ra. I didn't realize he was still at the top, after I started. At the end of the day, I was a Terran player... and... if I wanted to get better or improve... Boxer was pretty much the last guy on earth I would want to watch, unless it was for "micro tricks." I don't believe in arbitrary best players. What time you were good is very arbitrary. It's like the Kyrie Irving trade in basketball where the logic given was "he's a super star." Once people get carried away with labels and "intangibles," people become delusional real quick. Keep lists more win rate centric and you will be more in-line with reality. If Midas were to do FBH dances after every win and have more of a personality, I'm sure he'd be on everyone's top 5 lists. Thus... let's be real. | ||
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rauk
United States2228 Posts
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playa
United States1284 Posts
On September 12 2017 12:28 rauk wrote: boxer is not the "best" player of all time. no one claims he was the highest skill because obviously the newest players are best because people get better all the time. he's the "greatest" of all time because he's had the most impact on the game Win rates. The worst pro gamer right now could be waaaaaay better than anyone from 2004, but their win rates would still suck. You can thank Boxer for getting you into SC, but you can't thank him for making you good at anything. | ||
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Lorch
Germany3668 Posts
I really can't see how Boxer/Oov/Nada/Fantasy/Flash/Xellos would not all be auto picks for such a list. You make it sound like only the current top players matter and anyone who came before them is worth nothing. Does Grrrs OSL mean nothing? Oov became pretty irrelevant once his style got figured out. You could break him down to a guy who was only good at making lots of units and attack moving them across the map like you do with boxer. Are you honestly trying to convince us that Midas should be ranked higher than Boxer? | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On September 12 2017 12:31 playa wrote: Win rates. The worst pro gamer right now could be waaaaaay better than anyone from 2004, but their win rates would still suck. You can thank Boxer for getting you into SC, but you can't thank him for making you good at anything. It's official then. 1) ZerO is the greatest OGN StarLeague player of all time. 2) Horang2 is the greatest PvP player of all time. 3) SnOw is the greatest PvT player of all time. 4) EffOrt is the second greatest zerg player of all time. 5) GoRush was the best player in the world in 2004. By the way, as for the Elo video you pointed out, you do realize that the data taken to create that graph is mostly from TLPD and YGOSU right? You do realize that data from the earlier days are incredibly incomplete, and it's down right stupid to make assumptions purely from that video without having any context, right? Otherwise Bisu in 2011 was one of the greatest players of time, despite having failing to make it past the round of sixteen even once since 2009? Study your history before trying to stir up controversy with your limited insight. | ||
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