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Great and very relevant post! Gj wp! Lets talk abourt Life....
Since SC2 came in 2010 i have played a lot of SC2 (Master multiple times). Been attending Dreamhacks and multiple other LANs  I love it!! I watch SC2 (streams, turnaments ect.) every day
In my opinion Life is the greatest to ever play the game (More innovative than MVP).
Remember his ling-micro? Remember he did things no other zerg could do?
Come on guys! Lets forgive a fellow SC2-player. He was a teenager. Just a kid. What he did was stupid but should not exclude from the game he made look so beautiful
In every legal system the punishment should reflect the crime. I think Life has "done his time". Lets move on! Peace!
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What I most regret is that we never got to see him streaming. That would have probably been the most impressive first-person-view ever.
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So true Charoisaur
Also, i really think LOTV would have favoured his playstyle. I only saw one Life game in LOTV and he completely wrecked Zest
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I've heard some dark shit,
More than just fixing matches.
He sounds abusive.
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On February 03 2017 05:59 Trozz wrote:
I've heard some dark shit,
More than just fixing matches.
He sounds abusive.
Stuff like this is said about many famous or even semi famous people. Hell, even TLO is called to be an arrogant hypocrite by some people. I wouldn't give a sh* on rumours like this, if there is no concrete evidence.
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On February 03 2017 05:25 Madhouze wrote:Great and very relevant post! Gj wp! Lets talk abourt Life.... Since SC2 came in 2010 i have played a lot of SC2 (Master multiple times). Been attending Dreamhacks and multiple other LANs I love it!! I watch SC2 (streams, turnaments ect.) every day In my opinion Life is the greatest to ever play the game (More innovative than MVP). Remember his ling-micro? Remember he did things no other zerg could do? Come on guys! Lets forgive a fellow SC2-player. He was a teenager. Just a kid. What he did was stupid but should not exclude from the game he made look so beautiful In every legal system the punishment should reflect the crime. I think Life has "done his time". Lets move on! Peace!
YEAH ! Let's forgive him since what he did was stupid and he couldn't have known what matchfixing would lead to ! And he was the greatest Zerg player ! It's the first time that happened he couldn't have known ! And what he did did nothing to profesional Starcraft e-sport !
Oh wait...
- What he did was illegal
- What he did destroyed a part of the scene
- What he did was already done by another greatest player that was caught and condamned too.
He KNEW what he was doing.
Or just forgive him. And let's forgive Savior too. OH ! let's even forgive CombatEx and bring him back here ! Why not !
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Savior is still one of the greatest players of all time. CombatEX was never banned from competitive play and is still allowed to compete if he wanted to.
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On February 03 2017 01:33 ShambhalaWar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2017 06:59 Solar424 wrote:
As much as I loved life, matchfixing should have a zero-tolerance policy. The damage he and the others did to the Korean scene is incalculable and they should be banned from anything related to eSports for life. To say that what he did "incalculable-damage" makes it sounds like he did massive damage to the scene. I disagree. Maybe he hurt the gambling scene, which really has nothing to do with our scene. This scene has been dying for a long time, truth to power. SOOOOO many bad decisions have been made by blizzard about balance and a system for WCS... and intervening at all in the Korean scene which was THRIVING as far as I could tell, before blizzard got their hands into it. This scene has been living on a non-sustainable business model for a long time, and the bubble burst. Plus it's an insanely complex game, most people don't have the time to learn it, which is why a simple (by rule and complex by strategy) game like csgo is thriving. People watch games like football and basket ball, you throw a ball through a hoop or walk a ball over a line. How to you expect the population to grasp a game this complex? Also, Heroes of the storm has been growing pretty steadily with the new HGC format. I think blizzard is understanding what works better and better. That format is infinitely better for the players and viewers, more games for us and promised money to the players. We were just the guinea pigs in sc2 for esports. In a better system, hopefully players don't feel tempted to cheat a corrupt system of gambling to make extra money. Ps. gambling is corrupt, period. In the sense that, sure you can do it, but you are just fucking yourself out of your own money because it's all rigged against you. So its never something that can operate in a "clean" way, it will always be taking advantage of you. If someone comes in and takes advantage of the bookie I don't really feel bad. In gambling someone is always taking advantage of someone else. Psps. I vote let Life back in. Keep the ban for another year or two, then make a probation period, if there is still a scene by then let him back. "To forgive is divine," it's been said countless times by infinite great thinkers, also punitive measure have been executed countless times by tyrants yielding nothing.
Sponsors don't want to invest in a scene where matchfixing is a problem. It had a lot to do with the downfall of Kespa BW and it probably had something to deal with the Kespa teams dropping SC2.
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On February 03 2017 06:55 Solar424 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2017 01:33 ShambhalaWar wrote:On January 30 2017 06:59 Solar424 wrote:
As much as I loved life, matchfixing should have a zero-tolerance policy. The damage he and the others did to the Korean scene is incalculable and they should be banned from anything related to eSports for life. To say that what he did "incalculable-damage" makes it sounds like he did massive damage to the scene. I disagree. Maybe he hurt the gambling scene, which really has nothing to do with our scene. This scene has been dying for a long time, truth to power. SOOOOO many bad decisions have been made by blizzard about balance and a system for WCS... and intervening at all in the Korean scene which was THRIVING as far as I could tell, before blizzard got their hands into it. This scene has been living on a non-sustainable business model for a long time, and the bubble burst. Plus it's an insanely complex game, most people don't have the time to learn it, which is why a simple (by rule and complex by strategy) game like csgo is thriving. People watch games like football and basket ball, you throw a ball through a hoop or walk a ball over a line. How to you expect the population to grasp a game this complex? Also, Heroes of the storm has been growing pretty steadily with the new HGC format. I think blizzard is understanding what works better and better. That format is infinitely better for the players and viewers, more games for us and promised money to the players. We were just the guinea pigs in sc2 for esports. In a better system, hopefully players don't feel tempted to cheat a corrupt system of gambling to make extra money. Ps. gambling is corrupt, period. In the sense that, sure you can do it, but you are just fucking yourself out of your own money because it's all rigged against you. So its never something that can operate in a "clean" way, it will always be taking advantage of you. If someone comes in and takes advantage of the bookie I don't really feel bad. In gambling someone is always taking advantage of someone else. Psps. I vote let Life back in. Keep the ban for another year or two, then make a probation period, if there is still a scene by then let him back. "To forgive is divine," it's been said countless times by infinite great thinkers, also punitive measure have been executed countless times by tyrants yielding nothing. Sponsors don't want to invest in a scene where matchfixing is a problem. It had a lot to do with the downfall of Kespa BW and it probably had something to deal with the Kespa teams dropping SC2.
There is a lot I don't know about the Korean scene, I can't speak to that.
In this scene sponsors and teams already don't pay their players money owed to them for winning tournaments. The scene is so bad that many of the highest level players just get screwed over by companies that sponsor them. Sponsors can be more worried about having the money to cover the talent that book or not running away with someones prize money.
Who are you going to blame more, sponsors/teams who take their players money or the player who cheats because they are worried about their money?
Also,
There are cheaters that get caught cheating in every sport, and those sports still continue to thrive.
If life had never been caught cheating, sc2 still would be dead. There is no counter argument to that, it was dying before he cheated.
I'm sure what he did, didn't help anything, but it certainly didn't cause anything.
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Byun could be a murderer. Innovation could be taking cocaine every time he plays. You really cannot trust any of them at all whatsoever so none of them should be playing the game at all, especially in tournaments. Because "...you never know..."
*Tries to imagine a machine getting high*
"Inhalable substance. Calls method 'happiness' in class 'emotions_positive.' Superclass 'emotion' deprecated in v7.4.3.
No discernible utility."
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Ah, the classic "we should let this slide because he might be autistic" defense. I think that's what got OJ off as well.
I don't think he should have necessarily went to jail.. but definitely banned from the scene. It doesn't matter how good you are, if you do something that dishonest that could ruin a business, you should not be allowed back in.. at 19, you're probably still stupid (I know I was), but you're also considered an adult, and you have to learn the hard way about responsibility and character sometimes.
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See Savior. Match fixers are never welcome. There is a reason these players get life time bans.
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This of course is regarding all match fixers, not only Life. The argument is not that they should simply be allowed to play, but if they are truly sorry that it has happened (not that it has been found out it has happened) they should have some sort of way to redeeming themselves and possibly returning.
I do not know much about Savior and it is my impression that he truly was a bad guy not feeling sorry about it -- but still apparently it was handled similarly, as trying to hide it under a rug -- and possibly it did not help preventing future matchfixers.
Perhaps if Savior was of a different nature and had the stage to apologize, redeem himself and go back (instead of going to China), he might've been an ambassador against these kind of things, explaining its dangers and keeping it in a debate. I really don't think that some sort of education and increasing public awareness would increase amount of the problems, but rather the opposite--the same doping (and anti-doping ambassadors) is handled in sports.
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Reading the discussion you could easily imply Life cheated to win. When all he did (AFAIK!) was to drop sets, without even altering the overall outcome of the match.
Not saying this makes it OK, but to put this into perspective:
It's like Lance Armstrong slowing down on purpose to finish the race a couple seconds later than he otherwise would have, rather than use doping to win. Or a boxer who throws one round in twelve while still winning, rather than throwing the whole fight.
From yet another perspective:
The only people who got hurt by the altered outcome were people betting money on a video game.
Yes, that's illegal. But the legal system is not just black and white.
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On February 05 2017 03:18 imp42 wrote:
From yet another perspective:
The only people who got hurt by the altered outcome were people betting money on a video game.
Yes, that's illegal. But the legal system is not just black and white.
And all the viewers watching that feel betrayed because it was not a real game. Who then will start doubting ANY starcraft game with strange endings. And the sponsors. Who see viewership interest declining due to the doubtful sportsmanship in games. And the esport SC2 as a whole because it's legitimacy goes down.
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On February 03 2017 06:55 Solar424 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2017 01:33 ShambhalaWar wrote:On January 30 2017 06:59 Solar424 wrote:
As much as I loved life, matchfixing should have a zero-tolerance policy. The damage he and the others did to the Korean scene is incalculable and they should be banned from anything related to eSports for life. To say that what he did "incalculable-damage" makes it sounds like he did massive damage to the scene. I disagree. Maybe he hurt the gambling scene, which really has nothing to do with our scene. This scene has been dying for a long time, truth to power. SOOOOO many bad decisions have been made by blizzard about balance and a system for WCS... and intervening at all in the Korean scene which was THRIVING as far as I could tell, before blizzard got their hands into it. This scene has been living on a non-sustainable business model for a long time, and the bubble burst. Plus it's an insanely complex game, most people don't have the time to learn it, which is why a simple (by rule and complex by strategy) game like csgo is thriving. People watch games like football and basket ball, you throw a ball through a hoop or walk a ball over a line. How to you expect the population to grasp a game this complex? Also, Heroes of the storm has been growing pretty steadily with the new HGC format. I think blizzard is understanding what works better and better. That format is infinitely better for the players and viewers, more games for us and promised money to the players. We were just the guinea pigs in sc2 for esports. In a better system, hopefully players don't feel tempted to cheat a corrupt system of gambling to make extra money. Ps. gambling is corrupt, period. In the sense that, sure you can do it, but you are just fucking yourself out of your own money because it's all rigged against you. So its never something that can operate in a "clean" way, it will always be taking advantage of you. If someone comes in and takes advantage of the bookie I don't really feel bad. In gambling someone is always taking advantage of someone else. Psps. I vote let Life back in. Keep the ban for another year or two, then make a probation period, if there is still a scene by then let him back. "To forgive is divine," it's been said countless times by infinite great thinkers, also punitive measure have been executed countless times by tyrants yielding nothing. Sponsors don't want to invest in a scene where matchfixing is a problem. It had a lot to do with the downfall of Kespa BW and it probably had something to deal with the Kespa teams dropping SC2.
Match-fixing in Counter-Strike: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/counterstrike/North_American_match_fixing_scandal
1 million viewers recently: http://mashable.com/2017/01/30/twitch-viewer-record/#Ka.soLwN3kqL
Clearly, match-fixing hasn't destroyed Counter-Strike. That said, it doesn't mean it's immune to it. It's just a counter-argument to what you said. SC2 was still in decline regardless of Life's match-fixing.
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On February 05 2017 03:26 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2017 03:18 imp42 wrote:
From yet another perspective:
The only people who got hurt by the altered outcome were people betting money on a video game.
Yes, that's illegal. But the legal system is not just black and white. And all the viewers watching that feel betrayed because it was not a real game. Who then will start doubting ANY starcraft game with strange endings. And the sponsors. Who see viewership interest declining due to the doubtful sportsmanship in games. And the esport SC2 as a whole because it's legitimacy goes down.
Sure, those consequences of his actions may all be valid.
However, ethics does not always judge result-based. There is also an intention-based judgement (depending on school).
From the intention-based view we can be fairly certain he did not throw the sets with the intention of driving sponsors out of the game.
Again, I'm trying to avoid judgement and instead provide some perspective.
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On February 05 2017 03:34 Shield wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2017 06:55 Solar424 wrote:On February 03 2017 01:33 ShambhalaWar wrote:On January 30 2017 06:59 Solar424 wrote:
As much as I loved life, matchfixing should have a zero-tolerance policy. The damage he and the others did to the Korean scene is incalculable and they should be banned from anything related to eSports for life. To say that what he did "incalculable-damage" makes it sounds like he did massive damage to the scene. I disagree. Maybe he hurt the gambling scene, which really has nothing to do with our scene. This scene has been dying for a long time, truth to power. SOOOOO many bad decisions have been made by blizzard about balance and a system for WCS... and intervening at all in the Korean scene which was THRIVING as far as I could tell, before blizzard got their hands into it. This scene has been living on a non-sustainable business model for a long time, and the bubble burst. Plus it's an insanely complex game, most people don't have the time to learn it, which is why a simple (by rule and complex by strategy) game like csgo is thriving. People watch games like football and basket ball, you throw a ball through a hoop or walk a ball over a line. How to you expect the population to grasp a game this complex? Also, Heroes of the storm has been growing pretty steadily with the new HGC format. I think blizzard is understanding what works better and better. That format is infinitely better for the players and viewers, more games for us and promised money to the players. We were just the guinea pigs in sc2 for esports. In a better system, hopefully players don't feel tempted to cheat a corrupt system of gambling to make extra money. Ps. gambling is corrupt, period. In the sense that, sure you can do it, but you are just fucking yourself out of your own money because it's all rigged against you. So its never something that can operate in a "clean" way, it will always be taking advantage of you. If someone comes in and takes advantage of the bookie I don't really feel bad. In gambling someone is always taking advantage of someone else. Psps. I vote let Life back in. Keep the ban for another year or two, then make a probation period, if there is still a scene by then let him back. "To forgive is divine," it's been said countless times by infinite great thinkers, also punitive measure have been executed countless times by tyrants yielding nothing. Sponsors don't want to invest in a scene where matchfixing is a problem. It had a lot to do with the downfall of Kespa BW and it probably had something to deal with the Kespa teams dropping SC2. Match-fixing in Counter-Strike: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/counterstrike/North_American_match_fixing_scandal1 million viewers recently: http://mashable.com/2017/01/30/twitch-viewer-record/#Ka.soLwN3kqLClearly, match-fixing hasn't destroyed Counter-Strike. That said, it doesn't mean it's immune to it. It's just a counter-argument to what you said. SC2 was still in decline regardless of Life's match-fixing.
CS:GO was already too big to fail by the time the matchfixing scandal happened, while Korean SC2 was hanging on by a thread. But I'm sure it's just a coincidence that all the Korean teams disbanded when their contracts ran out after the Life matchfixing was exposed.
The CS:GO matchfixing was also just one instance, while in SC2 it was apparent that it was much more common, with some cases we'll probably never know about.
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On February 05 2017 04:02 Solar424 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2017 03:34 Shield wrote:On February 03 2017 06:55 Solar424 wrote:On February 03 2017 01:33 ShambhalaWar wrote:On January 30 2017 06:59 Solar424 wrote:
As much as I loved life, matchfixing should have a zero-tolerance policy. The damage he and the others did to the Korean scene is incalculable and they should be banned from anything related to eSports for life. To say that what he did "incalculable-damage" makes it sounds like he did massive damage to the scene. I disagree. Maybe he hurt the gambling scene, which really has nothing to do with our scene. This scene has been dying for a long time, truth to power. SOOOOO many bad decisions have been made by blizzard about balance and a system for WCS... and intervening at all in the Korean scene which was THRIVING as far as I could tell, before blizzard got their hands into it. This scene has been living on a non-sustainable business model for a long time, and the bubble burst. Plus it's an insanely complex game, most people don't have the time to learn it, which is why a simple (by rule and complex by strategy) game like csgo is thriving. People watch games like football and basket ball, you throw a ball through a hoop or walk a ball over a line. How to you expect the population to grasp a game this complex? Also, Heroes of the storm has been growing pretty steadily with the new HGC format. I think blizzard is understanding what works better and better. That format is infinitely better for the players and viewers, more games for us and promised money to the players. We were just the guinea pigs in sc2 for esports. In a better system, hopefully players don't feel tempted to cheat a corrupt system of gambling to make extra money. Ps. gambling is corrupt, period. In the sense that, sure you can do it, but you are just fucking yourself out of your own money because it's all rigged against you. So its never something that can operate in a "clean" way, it will always be taking advantage of you. If someone comes in and takes advantage of the bookie I don't really feel bad. In gambling someone is always taking advantage of someone else. Psps. I vote let Life back in. Keep the ban for another year or two, then make a probation period, if there is still a scene by then let him back. "To forgive is divine," it's been said countless times by infinite great thinkers, also punitive measure have been executed countless times by tyrants yielding nothing. Sponsors don't want to invest in a scene where matchfixing is a problem. It had a lot to do with the downfall of Kespa BW and it probably had something to deal with the Kespa teams dropping SC2. Match-fixing in Counter-Strike: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/counterstrike/North_American_match_fixing_scandal1 million viewers recently: http://mashable.com/2017/01/30/twitch-viewer-record/#Ka.soLwN3kqLClearly, match-fixing hasn't destroyed Counter-Strike. That said, it doesn't mean it's immune to it. It's just a counter-argument to what you said. SC2 was still in decline regardless of Life's match-fixing. CS:GO was already too big to fail by the time the matchfixing scandal happened, while Korean SC2 was hanging on by a thread. But I'm sure it's just a coincidence that all the Korean teams disbanded when their contracts ran out after the Life matchfixing was exposed. The CS:GO matchfixing was also just one instance, while in SC2 it was apparent that it was much more common, with some cases we'll probably never know about.
You've answered your own question then. You admit SC2 was already in decline. Life's match-fixing was just insult to injury. It's still Blizzard's fault that SC2 isn't doing better than now.
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On February 05 2017 04:02 Solar424 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2017 03:34 Shield wrote:On February 03 2017 06:55 Solar424 wrote:On February 03 2017 01:33 ShambhalaWar wrote:On January 30 2017 06:59 Solar424 wrote:
As much as I loved life, matchfixing should have a zero-tolerance policy. The damage he and the others did to the Korean scene is incalculable and they should be banned from anything related to eSports for life. To say that what he did "incalculable-damage" makes it sounds like he did massive damage to the scene. I disagree. Maybe he hurt the gambling scene, which really has nothing to do with our scene. This scene has been dying for a long time, truth to power. SOOOOO many bad decisions have been made by blizzard about balance and a system for WCS... and intervening at all in the Korean scene which was THRIVING as far as I could tell, before blizzard got their hands into it. This scene has been living on a non-sustainable business model for a long time, and the bubble burst. Plus it's an insanely complex game, most people don't have the time to learn it, which is why a simple (by rule and complex by strategy) game like csgo is thriving. People watch games like football and basket ball, you throw a ball through a hoop or walk a ball over a line. How to you expect the population to grasp a game this complex? Also, Heroes of the storm has been growing pretty steadily with the new HGC format. I think blizzard is understanding what works better and better. That format is infinitely better for the players and viewers, more games for us and promised money to the players. We were just the guinea pigs in sc2 for esports. In a better system, hopefully players don't feel tempted to cheat a corrupt system of gambling to make extra money. Ps. gambling is corrupt, period. In the sense that, sure you can do it, but you are just fucking yourself out of your own money because it's all rigged against you. So its never something that can operate in a "clean" way, it will always be taking advantage of you. If someone comes in and takes advantage of the bookie I don't really feel bad. In gambling someone is always taking advantage of someone else. Psps. I vote let Life back in. Keep the ban for another year or two, then make a probation period, if there is still a scene by then let him back. "To forgive is divine," it's been said countless times by infinite great thinkers, also punitive measure have been executed countless times by tyrants yielding nothing. Sponsors don't want to invest in a scene where matchfixing is a problem. It had a lot to do with the downfall of Kespa BW and it probably had something to deal with the Kespa teams dropping SC2. Match-fixing in Counter-Strike: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/counterstrike/North_American_match_fixing_scandal1 million viewers recently: http://mashable.com/2017/01/30/twitch-viewer-record/#Ka.soLwN3kqLClearly, match-fixing hasn't destroyed Counter-Strike. That said, it doesn't mean it's immune to it. It's just a counter-argument to what you said. SC2 was still in decline regardless of Life's match-fixing. CS:GO was already too big to fail by the time the matchfixing scandal happened, while Korean SC2 was hanging on by a thread. But I'm sure it's just a coincidence that all the Korean teams disbanded when their contracts ran out after the Life matchfixing was exposed.
But the SBENU scandal -that actually resulted in disbanding a team-also happened the last season. so it is hard to say what was a bigger hit.
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EPT
