A year ago, Life has been arrested for match fixing. In his memory, let me add a comment in his defense.
Starcraft is such a hard game that more than other esports, many watch it rather than play. And for observer (e)sports like this, the most enjoyable part are seeing the most talented players. It is about seeing the genius of Michael Jordan, Magnus Carlsen, Tiger Woods, Phil Ivey, or in extreme AlphaGo. — and in my view, Life belonged among them.
However, my main argument is that Life should be allowed to come back, and it is not an utilitarian argument. As much as I would love to watch his games, that would be an invalid reason why. Ends do not justify the means.
My argument is that if done correctly, it would not be a wrong thing to do. Consider following points:
When the match fixing scandal happened, he was 19 and like most teenagers, he was probably stupid and unwise. The circumstances are unknown, i.e it is possible that the betting ring is organized by some sort of mafia and that he might have been threatened if he did not comply.
Even if he has done it for the money, it is rumored that he had a gambling addiction; for which he probably should have gotten treatment (which is harder than to simply discredit him)
As far as I know, the games he intentionally lost did not change any outcome — meaning that for example he’d win bo3 2:1 instead of 2:0
Also, it is for example possible that he may be autistic and he might have not understood fully what has been happening. But generally, a teenager like this without school, with loads of money and spending, probably without much help (esp. KeSPA’s treatment) lacking this sort of moral compass is bound to happen.
Many sportsmen/players have been banned for much worse actions — doping, cheating, violence, etc. while then given second chance. For example David Millar or Dwain Chambers. In poker, people like Justin Bonomo or Sorel Mizzi won money from other people by cheating, which is probably even worse, and even they have redeemed themselves. In the Overwatch Winter Premier plays babybay, a pro from Ghost gaming who is a former cheater from Counter-Strike.
All these terrible things, like doping, cheating, or matchfixing, should be talked about, investigated, and properly known. It’s a right thing that someone like Lance Armstrong had the stage to explain what happened, apologized himself, and acted as an ambassador against it. And when he cheated, he was fully conscious of his actions while Life a teenager addicted to gambling.
However, compared to someone like Lance Armstrong, the details about Life’s scandal are completely unknown. Everyone acts like nothing has happened and he has never existed. I’m pretty sure that since the incident he has never been mentioned in GSL/SSL/ProLeague. I think that only once Rotterdam mentioned him last Blizzcon. Of course while watching ESPN or whatever sports broadcasts, there is no shame of discussing something like this.
Let me add my anecdotical experience, which may not necessarily reflect the whole picture properly, but still I think it’s worth mentioning. I am an international student in the US and have a Korean friend here. He used to play SC a lot until few years ago, and watches it only sporadically. Recently, I mentioned Life, and he did not know about the match-fixing scandal. However, he brought up and talked in length, that the big problem that truly hurt the Korean scene, was the SBENU scandal. While perhaps for a lot of westerners (at least myself) it might have been downplayed.
My friend did not know of the match fixing scandal, likely because everyone acts like it has not happened. But I think that to prevent things like this, it should not be shoved under a rug, it should be talked about, investigated, and explained.
Life should have been given a stage to explain himself and apologize (if he wanted). Perhaps, if he has done gambling addiction treatment, if he has grown up a little bit and if he truly regrets what happened, he should be given a second chance.
It is easy to be judgmental and to have a strong negative stance to signal virtue to others - but it may not be the right thing to do.
Tl;dr: At least in Western culture, everyone should get a second chance. He did a wrong thing as a teenager under unknown circumstances and should be allowed to come out, explain what happened, apologize for it, and be an ambassador against shadiness that will still exist in any sport — as many players, previously banned for much worse things, have done in other sports.
If i may say so, your post is missing its "goal".. maybe your goal is to get discussion / debate going about this eventuality.. but you should say so clearly, because otherwise your post will / might be "kicked" into the Blog section.
i agree with second chances provided to people who show investment / efforts to deserve those. If he was coerced or a scapegoat that would allow a space / platform for him to prove it for one thing... Then again, simply returning to play in Kr with the same shady business available is not "making efforts" if you ask me
Kespa is vindictive as hell when it comes to matchfixing and they have no qualms about destroying the lives & careers of any matchfixers, whether they are 19 or 90 it makes no difference to Kespa. Do it once and you are history.
The best thing for any Life fans to do is to just let it go.
You might forgive but the Korean sponsors and viewers may not. In a scene that is already teetering on the edge of survival, welcoming back a matchfixer could do more harm than good. The same applied to Savior, and Life should be no exception no matter how amazing he was at playing the game.
Not matter his age, this guy has been part of the bunch of [insert bill burr's favorite curse word] who made SC2's pro scene very unstable.
If you take money to drop games, even if you're 19yo, you can't make excuses for it. And since "everyone has a right to have a second chance" how about letting Manson out of prison? Everyone deserves a second chance right?
He has all the second chances, just not in korean esport. There are plenty of other things he can start shining, his life (...) is not fucked over, his sentence was under probation, so he was only the 2 month of the prosecution in prison, he can go an redo his education, enlist into the army, furthermore strenghten his education and just have a good life.
No forgiveness. Especially since he was good enough to be the GOAT. There are so many other players out there that will only ever dream of his success, who didn't matchfix (at least as far as we know..), who continue to grind it out and improve. Life was the best and he threw it all away.
Someone of his esteem throwing games does great damage to an already declining scene. If anything, I think the sentence should have been harsher.
Look i think people in general are too harsh when it comes to the matchfixers tbh. Nobody ever tries to understand the situation these guys were in, there is only judgement based on own feelings for the game/scene/whatever it may be. So i agree to that extent. At the same time he did something illegal, directly hurting the starcraft scene and yes i think being 19 years old is old enough to be responsible for what you do. Do i absolutely "hate" Life? No, i think that's too close minded, lacking any empathy. But i think he deserves the ban, it is arguable if it should be forever or if he really should be also banned to stream, etc, but there needs to be something like that to scare potential other fixers. I don't think there will be any reasonable discussion about this though, i once tried to argue a similar point in a savior topic and people only use their own feelings as argument tbh. No these guys aren't monsters who should be removed from history, i think that stance is absurd.
As much as I loved life, matchfixing should have a zero-tolerance policy. The damage he and the others did to the Korean scene is incalculable and they should be banned from anything related to eSports for life.
still dont see the big deal is, who cares if he match fixed? thats not a crime deserving of jail. its just a video game at the end of the day. so his life is ruined because he didnt win some games that he could have, and a bunch of self righteous people in korea think gambling is bad. its not.
On January 30 2017 07:21 CrayonSc2 wrote: In pennsylvania you get a misdemeanor for possession of 1 gram of heroin. The kid played a video game.
Ok while overly harsh judgement mainly based on the own disappointment is bad, your "the kid played a video game" is just as absurd. No playing a videogame wasn't the problem and being 19 years old is hardly "being a kid". Unless you know of any psychological tests they did with him which prove that his mind indeed is on the lvl of a kid. Why is it so hard to have reasonable discussions :/
On January 30 2017 07:24 pvsnp wrote: I wonder how good Life would be now if he had not matchfixed. As good as Dark? Better?
Sadly, we will never know.
I mean he was a genius in his field, Flash lists him as one of the most gifted players ever iirc. So assuming he would be motivated it seems likely that he would be a top contender for any tournament he enters. Because he proved he can deliver in any tournament format.
I'm not a very forgiving person but I do believe in second change. However, what he did was just too damaging for the Korean SC2 scene that his sentence to me is lenient enough that he should be grateful. He spent like what 2 months in jail for prosecution and the rest under probation. At the time, he was a rising star. One of the best Zerg, winning a ton. It is not like he was the mid-tier one like BBoongBBoong who probably needed to match-fix to get more money. Life at the time was in a stable path to earn enough money to support himself for a long run. What he did was just pure greed and lacking of respect for his own profession.
I recalled I read somewhere that herO was approached as well by brokers but he said No. herO is older so maybe he was wiser at the time. But, to me, if you want to be professional gamer, you gotta to think two steps ahead. Quick money now is only for short term which means clearly you don't want to stay in this profession for long term. So, Life did choose what he wanted: Stay in SC2 for short term and now he is out of it. He got what he wished for. My advice? Move on and rebuild your life somewhere else, just not in SC2.
Agree 100%. This kid was genius, c'mon, he was world champion, and could become champion last year again if only they allowed him. He already payed crime with $, treatment and jail. Bring back Life. He's not Savior.
I hope that all the "no forgiveness" people will eventually fuck up in their lives and then someone will print out their posts and stick them into a proper orifice. This is just a completely blind approach to reality. Maybe you had it all fluffy and pink in your lives so you do not understand at all how easy it is to suddenly find yourself having crossed the rules, but trust me, it really is surprisingly easy and when it is happening to you, you might not even realize.
I am not saying that Life is not responsible for his actions, but an eternal sentence is always absurd. Also, he never cheated for a victory, he just lost games for money (and even not really important ones afaik). It's maybe open to discussion for how long the match-fixers should be removed from the tournaments, but I'd eventually let them back for sure. (And I stand by the opinion that the whole criminal prosecution was a completely insane thing to do over a game.)
I am against the death sentence but am willing to make an exception for cheaters. Anyone that matchfixes or maphacks deserves to be executed. Never forget, never forgive.
Tl;dr: At least in Western culture, everyone should get a second chance. He did a wrong thing as a teenager under unknown circumstances and should be allowed to come out, explain what happened, apologize for it, and be an ambassador against shadiness that will still exist in any sport — as many players, previously banned for much worse things, have done in other sports.
Agreed, he should be allowed to explain what happened, apologize for it, and try to fight against similar things happening again. He should not however be allowed to compete.
I am against the death sentence but am willing to make an exception for cheaters. Anyone that matchfixes or maphacks deserves to be executed. Never forget, never forgive.
That is....Draconian....in the original sense of the word, hence the capitalization.
Aside from the inhumanity of executing people for cheating in a videogame (!?), you'd have to execute every human alive. Find me a person somewhere on this planet that has never used an unfair advantage, and I will find you some more LSD.
So many 'possibly' and 'he may have' referring to any kind of extenuating circumstances. If it is proven that he's autistic and lacks the social skills, or was being threatened by mafia bosses into co-operating with their gambling ring, that is something his defence lawyers should have been bringing up in court. I don't know how much kespa just blanket ban anyone from competing based on this, but you at least are basing your 'let him return' argument on a whole lot of unknowns that tbh, are probably not true.
That said, I believe life bans are too harsh for a first offense. Most other sports I'm aware of have had matchfixing scandals where people are only handed 1-2 year bans unless they are more involved than life seemed to be. I fully support throwing life bans at people like Saviour though who were acting as broker/organiser for match fixing though.
On January 30 2017 07:01 fishjie wrote: still dont see the big deal is, who cares if he match fixed? thats not a crime deserving of jail. its just a video game at the end of the day. so his life is ruined because he didnt win some games that he could have, and a bunch of self righteous people in korea think gambling is bad. its not.
You literally have a whole page of people telling you what damage he did.
On January 30 2017 06:53 ZiggyPG wrote: I'd only be willing to revisit the subject in order to ridicule how lenient the sentence is, more time in prison would do him good.
I think science says prison time never did anyone any good...
I am against the death sentence but am willing to make an exception for cheaters. Anyone that matchfixes or maphacks deserves to be executed. Never forget, never forgive.
That is....Draconian....in the original sense of the word, hence the capitalization.
Aside from the inhumanity of executing people for cheating in a videogame (!?), you'd have to execute every human alive. Find me a person somewhere on this planet that has never used an unfair advantage, and I will find you some more LSD.
I think he/she was joking.
On January 30 2017 07:21 CrayonSc2 wrote: In pennsylvania you get a misdemeanor for possession of 1 gram of heroin. The kid played a video game.
Is it just playing a video game? People lost money when betting. True, betting is risky, but it's an example of what he's done. He's also upset spectators because they don't know when he loses for real.
On January 30 2017 07:21 CrayonSc2 wrote: In pennsylvania you get a misdemeanor for possession of 1 gram of heroin. The kid played a video game.
Ok while overly harsh judgement mainly based on the own disappointment is bad, your "the kid played a video game" is just as absurd. No playing a videogame wasn't the problem and being 19 years old is hardly "being a kid". Unless you know of any psychological tests they did with him which prove that his mind indeed is on the lvl of a kid. Why is it so hard to have reasonable discussions :/
This is the obvious answer for a person that has been sheltered as a child. This is just one of the laws that is less harsh than what life got. I was just pointing out how hell breaks loose when something happens in a video game but around the cornor someones is selling an ounce of drugs and thats okay with the community mindset.
Unless I see you participate in humanitarian projects often I don't think anyone has the right to enforce what the "kid" deserved.
Trust me, I seen and done some shit in my days and I got no where as much punishment as this guy. All he did was hit keys on a keyboard and clicked on a mouse.
...well ... cheating is not acceptable ... and life cheated ... he dropped maps to terminator and dream in KeSPA cup season 1 a year ago ... despite he won that games anyway ... and despite in wasnt a major tournament ... i agree that he has to be banned for this ... But go to jail for that ...?... or be banned for a lifetime ...?... i think this is like shooting sparrows with cannons ...
Citing kespa as a "good intention" organization is kind of ..
Saying that a 19 year old can always find a proper lawyer..
Dismissing any possibility of social/criminal pressure is ..
.. kiddie reasoning.
i personally believe that he should be allowed/made to tell his story, that this would serve esports in general and sc2 in particular, i also believe he will never do it on account of what he has to lose if it was indeed pressure that made him do it (because obviously that pressure is still there).
If he was just dumb and it was short term profit he is paying for it in spades.
Dude, I appreciate your passion and the reasoning but one tough lesson in life is this : "there are mistakes you can only make once and you can never go back !" .
The hardest thing about being an adult is that you have to take responsibility for the consequences of your actions even if you wanted them to happen or not.
Kespa's policy is not vindictive , it's quite smart actually. If they show even the slightest bit of mercy, they condemn the very esport they are trying to protect . If you allow a person known to be involved in match fixing, to play, how will you ever convince an audience that the results of the match was correct? Especially in a game like starcraft . I don't want to talk about someone else but I know I would stop watching matches and look for a sport with more integrity to it.
All sport sell views, create a hype about how much each side wants to win the match, how much they trained and prepared for this moment , and then you have someone who doesn't care about that. He is willing to loose to get paid. Who would watch that ? How long ?
And in his case just like savior, it's the worst kind of situation. He's a champion.He already makes more money than most professional gamers. I cheered for him when he was in Bucharest on the main stage and I was in the crowd, I'm zerg , I loved him. I have his autograph.
The fact that he's at an age where you still learn who you want to be in life is no excuse. No one forced him to be a progamer. He made more money in two years of playing starcraft than I made in 10 years at my job . And I'm an engineer and I climbed the corporate ladder quite fast.
It's not that I hate him . He made a mistake I can understand that. If we make one exception we teach the other players that in some cases it's ok to match fix and for me that's a cancer I don't want to deal with .
I'm sorry, like I said at the beginning you don't always get a redo in Life !
Because sc2 is the only thing Life can do? nope, he made a choice and has to deal with the consequences. Plenty of things left to do in life other than sc2.
On January 30 2017 06:53 ZiggyPG wrote: I'd only be willing to revisit the subject in order to ridicule how lenient the sentence is, more time in prison would do him good.
I think science says prison time never did anyone any good...
He was sentenced to pay a 70k fine with probatory time and got his name dirty. Enough to make sure he wouldn't do it again and also no serious team would ever hire him. With all this i think he should be allowed back.
Anyways, if he wanted and could, there's nothing to come back to.
On one hand hand I'd love to see him compete again and I think that he should get a 2nd chance but on the other hand there has to be a big punishment for him or else other players might be encouraged to do the same.
Also I doubt that the other progamers and tournament organizers etc would be happy if the guy who severily damaged the pro scene would be allowed to play again. Do you seriously think anyone would be willing to practice with him?
So sadly there's a 0% chance he will ever compete again.
While life's games were good, I can live without his games. As an sOs fan, I can live without his games or whoever's games. All individuals are equal under the law whether it's a rich and talented guy or an uneducated poor person. If life's free to play sc2 again, so should all the other guys who matchfixed before.
On January 30 2017 08:18 xTJx wrote: Btw, matchfixing scandals happend in several popular games, including BW. Blaming Life for SC2's unpopularity is the cheapest excuse ever.
Yeah and after the BW matchfixing scandal one of the leagues stopped and a bunch of teams disbanded. Sound familiar?
On January 30 2017 08:29 SwiftRH wrote: idk i think life was punished too hard as it is. jail for cheating in a video game like da faq poor kid
Okay. he didn't get 'jail for cheating in a video game'. He got jail for profiting off illegal matchfixing an involvement with illegal gambling organisations. It's a pretty big fucking difference.
And he got a suspended sentence, so literally pretty much a good behavior bond.
On January 30 2017 07:21 CrayonSc2 wrote: In pennsylvania you get a misdemeanor for possession of 1 gram of heroin. The kid played a video game.
Ok while overly harsh judgement mainly based on the own disappointment is bad, your "the kid played a video game" is just as absurd. No playing a videogame wasn't the problem and being 19 years old is hardly "being a kid". Unless you know of any psychological tests they did with him which prove that his mind indeed is on the lvl of a kid. Why is it so hard to have reasonable discussions :/
This is the obvious answer for a person that has been sheltered as a child. This is just one of the laws that is less harsh than what life got. I was just pointing out how hell breaks loose when something happens in a video game but around the cornor someones is selling an ounce of drugs and thats okay with the community mindset.
Unless I see you participate in humanitarian projects often I don't think anyone has the right to enforce what the "kid" deserved.
Trust me, I seen and done some shit in my days and I got no where as much punishment as this guy. All he did was hit keys on a keyboard and clicked on a mouse.
I am simply arguing against both extremes here. Life's actions had negative repercussions for a lot of people. You simplifying it down to "hitting keys on a keyboard" is absurd. It's just as absurd to demand eternal punishment though. Both these extreme opinions aren't reasonable if you ask me. Nobody gives a damn if you lose a sc2 ladder match on purpose. That wasn't the same situation though, stop pretending it is. But yeah sure i agree with you, there are much worse things which is why i think it makes sense to question the punishment he got. (both from the legal system and from the esports system)
On January 30 2017 08:00 baiesradu wrote: Dude, I appreciate your passion and the reasoning but one tough lesson in life is this : "there are mistakes you can only make once and you can never go back !" .
The hardest thing about being an adult is that you have to take responsibility for the consequences of your actions even if you wanted them to happen or not.
Kespa's policy is not vindictive , it's quite smart actually. If they show even the slightest bit of mercy, they condemn the very esport they are trying to protect . If you allow a person known to be involved in match fixing, to play, how will you ever convince an audience that the results of the match was correct? Especially in a game like starcraft . I don't want to talk about someone else but I know I would stop watching matches and look for a sport with more integrity to it.
All sport sell views, create a hype about how much each side wants to win the match, how much they trained and prepared for this moment , and then you have someone who doesn't care about that. He is willing to loose to get paid. Who would watch that ? How long ?
And in his case just like savior, it's the worst kind of situation. He's a champion.He already makes more money than most professional gamers. I cheered for him when he was in Bucharest on the main stage and I was in the crowd, I'm zerg , I loved him. I have his autograph.
The fact that he's at an age where you still learn who you want to be in life is no excuse. No one forced him to be a progamer. He made more money in two years of playing starcraft than I made in 10 years at my job . And I'm an engineer and I climbed the corporate ladder quite fast.
It's not that I hate him . He made a mistake I can understand that. If we make one exception we teach the other players that in some cases it's ok to match fix and for me that's a cancer I don't want to deal with .
I'm sorry, like I said at the beginning you don't always get a redo in Life !
On January 30 2017 07:28 MockHamill wrote: I am against the death sentence but am willing to make an exception for cheaters. Anyone that matchfixes or maphacks deserves to be executed. Never forget, never forgive.
You must be out of your fucking mind. Does your brain even compute the atrocity, primitiveness and narrow-mindedness of what you posted there? Put aside the html gavel and sit down.
Christ.
---- Agree with op. I would be extremely happy to see Life give a public apology and resume his career. Despite all the hate, no one that talented should ever give the tiniest fuck about anyone who points fingers , and should just follow their dreams. If Life, the Champion, wants to play again he should do that if his heart tells him to - not because anyone else tells him to; he has nothing to prove.
Life will always be in my heart as the best zerg in the world, consumed by a haunting mistake but with an undeniable talent that will live forever.
We all make mistakes but the thought of huge talents such as Life stepping wrongly gives hypocrites tremendous ego boners.
On January 30 2017 07:28 MockHamill wrote: I am against the death sentence but am willing to make an exception for cheaters. Anyone that matchfixes or maphacks deserves to be executed. Never forget, never forgive.
You must be out of your fucking mind. Does your brain even compute the atrocity, primitiveness and narrow-mindedness of what you posted there? Put aside the html gavel and sit down.
Christ.
He/she's yet to confirm if it was a serious post, but I think it should be treated like a joke/bad attempt to troll.
So let me get this right, based on: "That he might have been pressured, that he might have various illnesses, that he might have had a gambling addiction and that the games he threw might not have meant a great difference" we should forgive him?
Lots of whats ifs there my friend, what ifs that you use as arguements without knowing if they are true and off of which you base your opinion on? A word of advice, base your opinions on facts, if you fail in that at least do not try to convince others using rumors and guesses. You will look foolish.
" He did a wrong thing as a teenager under unknown circumstances and should be allowed to come out, explain what happened" You have any source that he was forbidden from this? He had his chance, like all do to come forth with information. He did not, if you have groundbreaking information on this then share it.
the reason behind there being such a strict punishment for match fixing from what is see is to prevent it from ruining the entire industry of professional esports and promoting fixed gambling at the same time. since the punishment is so severe for match fixing i think it has made alot of players second guess their participation in it
On January 30 2017 07:28 opisska wrote: I hope that all the "no forgiveness" people will eventually fuck up in their lives and then someone will print out their posts and stick them into a proper orifice. This is just a completely blind approach to reality. Maybe you had it all fluffy and pink in your lives so you do not understand at all how easy it is to suddenly find yourself having crossed the rules, but trust me, it really is surprisingly easy and when it is happening to you, you might not even realize.
I am not saying that Life is not responsible for his actions, but an eternal sentence is always absurd. Also, he never cheated for a victory, he just lost games for money (and even not really important ones afaik). It's maybe open to discussion for how long the match-fixers should be removed from the tournaments, but I'd eventually let them back for sure. (And I stand by the opinion that the whole criminal prosecution was a completely insane thing to do over a game.)
I seem to recall none of the games he threw affected the series, either. They were all games in a series, where he won the series anyway.
The people who want him hung by his testicles from a flag-pole ... they need to realize that when you pay the referees $1 and the players $1 each to play a game where $10 billion in bets are made the probability the outcome results from genuine competition between each player is zero.
even every single one of you in teamliquid forgive Life, Korea won't let him back. one of main reason why proleague and Kespa team has disbanded was match-fix. It is literally 0% chance for he can come back to this scene. \
after sAviOr's scandal in BW, we can't believe there are still people who think about doing this even in sc2... absolutely not forgivable
eh whatever your thoughts are, would any player even want to play against life after all he did?
On January 30 2017 10:03 biaxiong wrote: Though KESPA is dead, I doubt he'll have a chance in Korea. Come to America baby, we'll open our wall for you.
One thing I always find funny about these types of debates is that the SC2 community will demolish matchfixers and demand they are gone. But then when people that were caught cheating in SCBW were never really punished had decent fanbases in SC2 and signed to pro team. Then the cheaters in SC2 there are players that were caught, not really punished and boom they are still around. Yet people drag life through the mud over and over. Why not show the shame strictness to others that harm competition?
Also another talking point. Why is matchfixing viewed much worse than cheating? To where lawsuits and potential jail time come out of real world consequences of match fixing... While cheating is just meh. welcome back, have a contract.
On January 30 2017 11:05 KiF1rE wrote: One thing I always find funny about these types of debates is that the SC2 community will demolish matchfixers and demand they are gone. But then when people that were caught cheating in SCBW were never really punished had decent fanbases in SC2 and signed to pro team. Then the cheaters in SC2 there are players that were caught, not really punished and boom they are still around. Yet people drag life through the mud over and over. Why not show the shame strictness to others that harm competition?
Also another talking point. Why is matchfixing viewed much worse than cheating? To where lawsuits and potential jail time come out of real world consequences of match fixing... While cheating is just meh. welcome back, have a contract.
With matchfixing you're usually in contact with illegal betting rings. That's what makes it so bad.
No, what is the point? If I see a match with Life in it and he unexpectedly loses then what conclusion do I draw? How can watching games in those circumstances be enjoyable or worthy of your time.
On January 30 2017 11:05 KiF1rE wrote: One thing I always find funny about these types of debates is that the SC2 community will demolish matchfixers and demand they are gone. But then when people that were caught cheating in SCBW were never really punished had decent fanbases in SC2 and signed to pro team. Then the cheaters in SC2 there are players that were caught, not really punished and boom they are still around. Yet people drag life through the mud over and over. Why not show the shame strictness to others that harm competition?
Also another talking point. Why is matchfixing viewed much worse than cheating? To where lawsuits and potential jail time come out of real world consequences of match fixing... While cheating is just meh. welcome back, have a contract.
Because matchfixing inherently involves bribery.
Losing matches intentionally is not a crime. But accepting money from gamblers to intentionally lose a match is considered a form of bribery and is therefore a serious crime. This is why KESPA and virtually all sports organizations have zero tolerance policy for matchfixing.
Life threw a single map in a best of 5, against two players, in both of which he won the best of 5 anyways.
I understand the zero tolerance to match-fixing, and do not believe Life should be unbanned...
However, I find it disturbing that we are now going to white wash 4 years of Starcraft 2 history. Life was the best Zerg player of Heart of the Swarm... Period.
Even if OPs arguments were to be taken as 100% valid, this is one of the only times that I agree with KeSPA's harsh rulings. Just because other games have let players have second chances does not mean that it's a good idea to set that precedent.
It's already too easy to cheat at esports. There's not enough infrastructure and it's a risk enough as it is even if you're one of the very best in the world. No inch should be given to cheaters and matchfixers.
It may be unfortunate for Life that he made such a mistake so young. Maybe his gambling addiction does make him more sympathetic. But nothing changes about what he did and what the consequences need to be. It's not just about Life, it's about every player that comes after that even thinks about throwing a match for money.
On January 30 2017 11:14 DeadByDawn wrote: No, what is the point? If I see a match with Life in it and he unexpectedly loses then what conclusion do I draw? How can watching games in those circumstances be enjoyable or worthy of your time.
Get over him.
Obviously I cant speak for anyone else, but I for one dont care about something as primitive and irrelevant as who wins - the enjoyment of watching starcraft comes from watching moments of brilliance: beautiful mechanics or beautiful presense of mind or beautiful strategical approach/solution to something.
If I were to watch a match with Life and he unexpectedly lost, what conclusion would I draw? I wouldnt think much of it. Sometimes players play well, sometimes they play poorly - this is a fact whether or not matchfixing is happening.
On January 30 2017 11:05 KiF1rE wrote: One thing I always find funny about these types of debates is that the SC2 community will demolish matchfixers and demand they are gone. But then when people that were caught cheating in SCBW were never really punished had decent fanbases in SC2 and signed to pro team. Then the cheaters in SC2 there are players that were caught, not really punished and boom they are still around. Yet people drag life through the mud over and over. Why not show the shame strictness to others that harm competition?
Also another talking point. Why is matchfixing viewed much worse than cheating? To where lawsuits and potential jail time come out of real world consequences of match fixing... While cheating is just meh. welcome back, have a contract.
Which BW matchfixers switched over to be SC2 pros?
Firstly, I'd like to point out to everyone that the reason people don't get second chances in life are because of artificial, social constructs created by people in power, there are no laws in nature that say people should not get a second chance, in fact in most circumstances there are many reasons to give someone a second chance and very few cases in which a specific person should not be given a second chance.
Secondly, let me just point out the fact that anyone, at any age and especially around Life's age at the time of the event, can make a dumb mistake or be pressured into doing something bad. You can never say a young person "knew what they were doing" or "knew how bad this is", especially when addiction is involved. 19 is only a number to me.
For everyone who says that Life should never be given another chance and should never be forgiven I see zero reasons as to why, so I will completely dismiss those notions entirely because there's no reasoning behind it other than to talk down on someone to make yourself seem more important or righteous somehow. There is so little information about the specifics of the whys, hows, whats, and so on that nobody can definitively say what he deserves, outside of the monetary fine for being caught matchfixing.
It is purely speculation that either matchfixing or Life himself contributed to "the downfall of StarCraft 2" as a game or as an esport in any way, but there is a large amount of evidence (his massive fan base and the game's popularity when he was playing) that he himself did contribute in a positive way to the game's popularity as well as to the level of skill in competition because of the strategic knowledge he shared with other players directly, by practicing, or by playing on stage and performing well.
On the note of his supposed, although probably true from what I have heard, gambling addiction, I don't believe you should ever blame an addicted person for their behavior unless it is known that the person repeatedly refused help. In my experience, people who get in trouble because of an addiction were never given proper help prior to the event or the person didn't know about their problem until it was too late and still were never given proper care. The correct response, in my opinion and in my experience, to an event in which addiction is involved is not to discredit and talk down on the person with the addiction or to use it as a point in your argument, it is to talk down on the practices, the cultures, and the organizations surrounding the addiction because the heart of the problem is gambling and matchfixing in esports, not Life.
I know just as much or even less than most people about the details of Life's matchfixing, but because I cannot say definitively that he should never be forgiven, I must say there is a chance he should be allowed to come back if more information comes to light. For now, all I will say is that I miss watching him play greatly, and I hope he has kept active and positive and is seeking out and receiving help if he needs it. He was a great inspiration to many players, Zerg, Protoss, and Terran, and in more ways than just as a player.
P.S. My apologies in advance for any typos I may have made.
On January 30 2017 13:41 Waxangel wrote: Wow, thanks for talking about your friend as if he means anything. I think you're an idiot. I'm a Korean, so consider this irrefutable fact.
Calling someone an idiot for no reason. Why bother commenting if that's all you're going to write.
i've done loads of dumb shit in the past that many people could hate me for, but i've also done loads of good shit too, since then. it's possible to mend bridges, but you need to go out of your way to do that, and hope for the best too. otherwise, you just live your life the way that you do, until you die. nobody will know any different, except for you, and perhaps the people you meet along the way, or perhaps they won't. at the end of the day, if you really want to get involved again in a scene that you fucked up in, you will have to start small, make the effort, and perhaps you'll be able to prove yourself in time. in context, i think if someone like Life works towards this goal then he will be able to achieve it, and that, as observers, or whoever else, we should be open to the possibility.
While western cultural does give second chances out like it is candy, I don't agree with it.
Cheating in any sport, regardless if it is doping, match fixing, whatever should result in a lifetime ban. Far fewer people would attempt it if they realized they would indefinitely lose their source of income. And then people wouldn't have the excuse that everyone else does it.
On January 30 2017 13:41 Waxangel wrote: Wow, thanks for talking about your friend as if he means anything. I think you're an idiot. I'm a Korean, so consider this irrefutable fact.
Calling someone an idiot for no reason. Why bother commenting if that's all you're going to write.
Because he is Korean. And as he said, that means he only states irrefutable facts, which is also known as his opinion.
He's only banned from kespa IIRC. With kespa gone, nothing is really stopping him. He could come back whenever he is out of jail if he didn't mind the community backlash.
On January 30 2017 13:41 Waxangel wrote: Wow, thanks for talking about your friend as if he means anything. I think you're an idiot. I'm a Korean, so consider this irrefutable fact.
Calling someone an idiot for no reason. Why bother commenting if that's all you're going to write.
If any of us made this exact comment we would be banned, at the very least warned.
On January 30 2017 15:10 Voltz_sc21 wrote: He's only banned from kespa IIRC. With kespa gone, nothing is really stopping him. He could come back whenever he is out of jail if he didn't mind the community backlash.
Not possible. KESPA is still affiliated with SC2. The teams may be gone from SC2 but KESPA remains the parent organization of SC2 (and most other korean esports).
On January 30 2017 15:10 Voltz_sc21 wrote: He's only banned from kespa IIRC. With kespa gone, nothing is really stopping him. He could come back whenever he is out of jail if he didn't mind the community backlash.
except for the fact that nobody would want to play against him.
On January 30 2017 15:10 Voltz_sc21 wrote: He's only banned from kespa IIRC. With kespa gone, nothing is really stopping him. He could come back whenever he is out of jail if he didn't mind the community backlash.
except for the fact that nobody would want to play against him.
So he'd win every tournament by forfeit. The perfect strategy! /s
On January 30 2017 15:10 Voltz_sc21 wrote: He's only banned from kespa IIRC. With kespa gone, nothing is really stopping him. He could come back whenever he is out of jail if he didn't mind the community backlash.
except for the fact that nobody would want to play against him.
How could you even know that? Have you asked pros?
On January 30 2017 15:10 Voltz_sc21 wrote: He's only banned from kespa IIRC. With kespa gone, nothing is really stopping him. He could come back whenever he is out of jail if he didn't mind the community backlash.
except for the fact that nobody would want to play against him.
How could you even know that? Have you asked pros?
would you willingly work with someone who threatened and has already hurt your livelihood?
this is just selfish behaviour and I question your commitment to a legitimate competition.
On January 30 2017 14:03 Riner1212 wrote: dont think any tournament would allow him back, but there are other zergs better then him like dark.
Not at all.
Dark, soO and ByuL are the top contenders in the absence of Life but none of them have accomplished a third of what he has.
In addition, Life just had a certain adaptability within the game that allowed him to have an unparalleled level of fluidity in his play. Combine that with him seemingly being immune to tilting and it's hard to imagine another Zerg ever coming close to him.
On January 30 2017 15:10 Voltz_sc21 wrote: He's only banned from kespa IIRC. With kespa gone, nothing is really stopping him. He could come back whenever he is out of jail if he didn't mind the community backlash.
except for the fact that nobody would want to play against him.
How could you even know that? Have you asked pros?
would you willingly work with someone who threatened you livelihood?
this is just selfish behaviour and I question your commitment to a legitimate competition.
I don't think that is a completely honest statement. This same guy who damaged the pro scene, is the same guy who brought it to new heights. Arguably, he was subject to addiction. Friends of his have gone on record saying he would lose tens of thousands of dollars a night at the oversea casinos. Since gambling is illegal in Korea, it is not impossible to believe that he lost a ton of money illegally betting in korea, and needed to pay up to some mean people.
On top of the jail time and fines, he probably lost all of his friends. Who even knows if his family still talks to him. The shame he must carry, the public scrutiny, I think he has undergone enough punishment. I would welcome him back, though, I'm not sure he would want to come back. I wish him well~
As much as I loved Life's play style and skill, sometimes you just have to sacrifice somebody to make a point. Athletes might get a 2 years ban for doping and then they're back. So yes, banning Life permanently seems very harsh. Especially if he "only" fixed sets without changing the outcome of the match (if I understood this correctly).
However, this ban is not about Life as an individual. It's about signalling a zero-tolerance policy. I wish him a second chance and I would want to see him play again, just for my own selfish reasons. But I can't see that happen and perfectly understand the "sacrifice". Even though it's very unlucky it happens to be a player of his level.
On January 30 2017 06:56 JackONeill wrote: Not matter his age, this guy has been part of the bunch of [insert bill burr's favorite curse word] who made SC2's pro scene very unstable.
If you take money to drop games, even if you're 19yo, you can't make excuses for it. And since "everyone has a right to have a second chance" how about letting Manson out of prison? Everyone deserves a second chance right?
It is not the same. What you did and how old you were matters. If both were equal, every gambler, no matter how old he is, had to face 25 years in prison.
You are not grown up with 19 years as a pro player, because you miss the real life experience.
"that the big problem that truly hurt the Korean scene, was the SBENU scandal. While perhaps for a lot of westerners (at least myself) it might have been downplayed."
What in the.
SBENU scandal did kill off the team and did kill off the OGN's BW league due to SBENU sponsoring both. It may have hurt individual league's image due to them sponsoring, but it was brushed off. Proleague received no impact other than the team in need for new home.
Meanwhile, matchfixing, both in BW and SC2, have killed off at least one league and multiple teams each time it happened. If SBENU scandal was really that huge in Korea (in terms of hurting eSports because they heavily reached out for eSports), why is LoL still going strong without any repercussions from the SBENU scandal?
Back in 2013 while I was still working in the scene, my co-worker told me that if matchfixing were to happen again, Proleague was finished. Guess what happened in 2016. Yes, it wasn't the only contributing factor. But to brush it off as something that didn't have as much impact, then trying to bring someone back that helped destroy a scene. That's a no-no.
EDIT: And to those who were saying he probably didn't know because he was young: Consider this. KeSPA had regular seminars and meetings to discuss how the players should behave as a progamer (i.e. things to do, things not to do, etc.), and matchfixing and its repercussions on the entire scene was one of the lectures (source: http://www.hankookilbo.com/v/7f55132ae44ba21448a1a87050ac8f55 ). To say that he was completely blind to the situation doesn't seem right here.
EDIT 2: to my EDIT above, I need to double check if this person did attend the seminars or not; I forget when he became a member of KeSPA team. If someone could fact check this, I would be appreciated.
I disagree that Life should be allowed back. If he is allowed back, then what about people like Savior who matchfixed in BW? You are opening a can of worms.
I'll use an example of competitive sports. Pete Rose is still banned from baseball and the baseball hall of fame despite admitting that he had gambled on the game.
@supernovamaniac yes, it looks like I was probably off SBENU being the biggest blow, which is why I noted that it is just an "anecdotical experience, which may not necessarily reflect the whole picture properly."
But to many others -- the point is I still do not understand, is that I watch many games and sports, and as mentioned, see players do much worse things, but being redeemed. What makes the difference?
What allows cheaters (who actually won a games due to it) to come back in CS or Overwatch? Or how it is possible that Sorel Mizzi or Justin Bonomo (who won/stole money from others) can make a comeback, too?
If it is that he was a prominent figure endangering the fragile scene, does it then mean that a B-tier player in a more robust scene is more allowed to cheat? Is this why the omnipresent cheating in OW on korean server is not a big deal?
To me that sounds absurd, but if the consensus is that it is the case, I'd have to reconsider and this thread would be enlighting to me.
On January 30 2017 06:55 InfCereal wrote: I'm with OP. I'm just here for sick games.
and with matchfixing scandal you havent got kr games, sc1 has fallen because of that, sc2 kr too
upwards of 300k watched the ASL semi-finals, jaedong vs flash. sc1 did NOT fall in korea because of match fixing, it fell because Blizzard pushed SC2 over SC:BW.
On January 30 2017 07:24 pvsnp wrote: I wonder how good Life would be now if he had not matchfixed. As good as Dark? Better?
Sadly, we will never know.
He would thrive in the fast paced games of LOTV. That was his playstyle. I'd wager he'd be as good, if not better, than dark.
On January 30 2017 08:18 xTJx wrote: Btw, matchfixing scandals happend in several popular games, including BW. Blaming Life for SC2's unpopularity is the cheapest excuse ever.
On January 30 2017 08:18 xTJx wrote: Btw, matchfixing scandals happend in several popular games, including BW. Blaming Life for SC2's unpopularity is the cheapest excuse ever.
Yeah and after the BW matchfixing scandal one of the leagues stopped and a bunch of teams disbanded. Sound familiar?
Yeah bro, not like SC2 dying contributed to that whatsoever. Teams are realizing LoL is where a TON of the money is, NOT SC2, so why bother supporting it? If you think Proleague and the majority of the teams disbanded based on match fixing, you're just plain ignorant.
On January 30 2017 08:29 SwiftRH wrote: idk i think life was punished too hard as it is. jail for cheating in a video game like da faq poor kid
And he got a suspended sentence, so literally pretty much a good behavior bond.
This is the biggest point. He's LITERALLY, BY LAW, one strike away from a year and a half in prison.
On January 30 2017 11:47 Bill Murray wrote: I got to "gambling addiction" and "treatment" and just stopped reading
because even though there is evidence around the claim that Life had a gambling problem, who cares, right? fuck our players, get KESPA the ratings.
On January 30 2017 15:09 PolarKnight wrote: He is still rumored to earn money through Overwatch auto-aim program sales.
Source?
On January 30 2017 16:40 ilikeredheads wrote: I disagree that Life should be allowed back. If he is allowed back, then what about people like Savior who matchfixed in BW? You are opening a can of worms.
Savior played BW in China after his KeSPA ban. Not a relevant point you're trying to make.
He should not be allowed back to play in competitive SC2 he is a cheat and did a lot of damage to the scene. He can get his 2nd chance or redemption from some other activity.
On January 30 2017 07:28 MockHamill wrote: I am against the death sentence but am willing to make an exception for cheaters. Anyone that matchfixes or maphacks deserves to be executed. Never forget, never forgive.
You must be out of your fucking mind. Does your brain even compute the atrocity, primitiveness and narrow-mindedness of what you posted there? Put aside the html gavel and sit down.
Christ.
---- Agree with op. I would be extremely happy to see Life give a public apology and resume his career. Despite all the hate, no one that talented should ever give the tiniest fuck about anyone who points fingers , and should just follow their dreams. If Life, the Champion, wants to play again he should do that if his heart tells him to - not because anyone else tells him to; he has nothing to prove.
Life will always be in my heart as the best zerg in the world, consumed by a haunting mistake but with an undeniable talent that will live forever.
We all make mistakes but the thought of huge talents such as Life stepping wrongly gives hypocrites tremendous ego boners.
That is so incredibly stupid I am just speechless.
Man, you like him, we got that. You like talented people, thats your right. But give them law leniency under the pretext they are talented ? How dumb is that ?!
On January 30 2017 06:58 The_Red_Viper wrote: Look i think people in general are too harsh when it comes to the matchfixers tbh. Nobody ever tries to understand the situation these guys were in, there is only judgement based on own feelings for the game/scene/whatever it may be. So i agree to that extent. At the same time he did something illegal, directly hurting the starcraft scene and yes i think being 19 years old is old enough to be responsible for what you do. Do i absolutely "hate" Life? No, i think that's too close minded, lacking any empathy. But i think he deserves the ban, it is arguable if it should be forever or if he really should be also banned to stream, etc, but there needs to be something like that to scare potential other fixers. I don't think there will be any reasonable discussion about this though, i once tried to argue a similar point in a savior topic and people only use their own feelings as argument tbh. No these guys aren't monsters who should be removed from history, i think that stance is absurd.
Thank you. The amount of people who go acting like they're pure people who never ever had the very thought of cheating while Life is an immoral monster who should be erased from history is mindblowingly sad.
The morals of this debate are a garbage fire I'm not going to bother with, but just take a moment and think how this would work practically. How do you properly temp ban a player as punishment?
Banning a player is already a tricky thing, since different tournaments and leagues are not required to follow the same rules. In principle Kespa banning someone only bans them from Korean leagues and whichever leagues decide to show good faith towards Kespa. That's going to be most of them but not all. What about the opponents though? Do Kespa players then refuse to play against him thus forcing tournaments to choose which pool of players to go after? Banning as is rests on general agreement between tournament organizers.
Temp banning has its own host of issues. What team is going to hire a player that cannot play in most leagues and just keep them on salary for year(s)? How motivated is a player going to be to continue practicing while banned, and how likely is it that they will return straight to the top of a continually evolving scene after years of absence? Maybe a guy like Life could have managed. Maybe he could have found sponsors despite his problems and made a comeback. If so, a temp ban would effectively be a perma ban for 99% of players while allowing the most popular leniency.
As almost always, discussions here are pushed to the extreme. Death sentence, full rehabilitation, never forget, he is too young to comprehend what he was doing - really? For me, it's much simpler. He is done in SC2. He hurt the scene badly. How can we ever trust him again? It is best for both parties to part ways and move on. His life is NOT over, he can do whatever he likes other than join a professional Korean Starcraft team.
Would you give a diner a second chance after eating rotten meat? Would you go to the same pharmacist again that sold you sugar pills instead of painkillers? No. Because the next time you give them a chance, there is utter distrust. You cannot trust Life to ever seriously compete again, It's just that simple. So there is absolutely no reason to invite him to competitions. He can do showmatches, stream or prove his skill otherwise.
Judicial systems usually are all about second chances (except for the death penalty and full life sentences) - he has his now. Just not in Starcraft. He closed that door himself
On January 30 2017 19:38 Zaros wrote: There is more to life than SC2 :r
He should not be allowed back to play in competitive SC2 he is a cheat and did a lot of damage to the scene. He can get his 2nd chance or redemption from some other activity.
There is also more to SC2 than Life!
Other than that silly wordplay, I have nothing to add. Life did real damage to the scene, and is probably partially to blame for the collapse of the KR SC2 scene. Letting him back into a pro team would harm the scene even further. Matchfixing is a very serious issue for SC2, and being banned from the game is not the end of Life's life. I loved him and his playstyle, but I lost every bit of respect I had for him when he was found to have matchfixed, and I never want to see him play again.
This matter could atually be expanded to "should famous/loved people be punished by the law the same way than regular people?".
And of course, in any western civilisation, the answer should be yes (should be in theory, isn't the case in reality). No one care that Life was gifted at the game. No one cares about the feelings you have about the guy. He committed a crime, he got punished, KESPA banned him, end of story.
If you want to treat criminals differently because some amount of people like them, or that they are famous in some way, go in the street and protest for Bill Cosby to be released.
Not sure what's the point in discussing this. I'm pretty sure Life does not want to come back anyway. He would be way too embarassed and would've to deal with constant harassment from Korean fans and be ridiculed by others.
His time in the public is over. He will try to stay out of the limelight for sure.
i find it weird how so many in this thread are thinking in black and white only. there is those who are like whatever he just cheated in a videogame let him play again and those who are like lol what he did was so severe he shouldve gotten 50 years of hard labor.
the reality however is this. it was his first offense for all we know and the kid paid for it. he spend 2 month in jail, has a few additonal years on probation, had to pay a signifacant amount of money AND was banned from competitive play for over a year now. with all due respect to those who believe otherwise, i strongly believe he should be allowed to redeem himself. publicly apologize and be allowed to compete again on probation.
everyone deserves a second chance, especially after they took their punishment like a man.
and just for the record, if he wanted to, i think he could. kespa is gone from sc2, and i highly doubt blizzard would insist on a perma ban like kespa did. if he formally apologized and asked for a second chance, im 100% positive they would allow it.
Then they would have to let SaviOr and others off too. Don't get me wrong, SaviOr was my favorite player, and I'd love to watch him again, but the damage can't be undone. While I agree that maybe they shouldn't have banned them forever, banning pro-gamers for a few years is almost the same as that, so there's not much choice.
He knew what he was getting into, SaviOr's matchfixed while Life was a kid, so Life knows what damage it can do, he's seen it. Yes, he's young and foolish, but doing it again after SaviOr is plain stupid. He should face worse consequences than SaviOr, and as far as I can tell, he is. He did it for the money, plain and simple, while disregarding everything else, intentionally.
If a lawyer does something illegal, he can never be a lawyer again, and he'll be tried. Why should it be different for gamers?
On January 30 2017 21:52 evolsiefil wrote: i find it weird how so many in this thread are thinking in black and white only. there is those who are like whatever he just cheated in a videogame let him play again and those who are like lol what he did was so severe he shouldve gotten 50 years of hard labor.
the reality however is this. it was his first offense for all we know and the kid paid for it. he spend 2 month in jail, has a few additonal years on probation, had to pay a signifacant amount of money AND was banned from competitive play for over a year now. with all due respect to those who believe otherwise, i strongly believe he should be allowed to redeem himself. publicly apologize and be allowed to compete again on probation.
everyone deserves a second chance, especially after they took their punishment like a man.
and just for the record, if he wanted to, i think he could. kespa is gone from sc2, and i highly doubt blizzard would insist on a perma ban like kespa did. if he formally apologized and asked for a second chance, im 100% positive they would allow it.
I'm sure Blizzard removed Life's name from the Blizzcon trophy and GSL removed him from their wall of champions to signify that they'd be willing to give him a second chance.
The reality is this - as much as some people might want him to return, you have to realize, even if he were allowed to, it wouldn't be a good idea for him to actually do it. Return to the stage of the greatest failure in his life? Constantly confronted with the venom of the Korean fans who will never forgive him for the damage he did to their scene? Maybe run into match-fixers once more and run into the same trouble all over again? Why would he want any of this?
On January 30 2017 22:03 quirinus wrote: If a lawyer does something illegal, he can never be a lawyer again, and he'll be tried. Why should it be different for gamers?
if a football player, a baseball player, a nba player etc does something illegal, most of the time they can come back after they served their sentence. why should it be different for gamers?
On January 30 2017 22:03 quirinus wrote: If a lawyer does something illegal, he can never be a lawyer again, and he'll be tried. Why should it be different for gamers?
if a football player, a baseball player, a nba player etc does something illegal, most of the time they can come back after they served their sentence. why should it be different for gamers?
Matchfixing in traditional sports mostly result in long bans as well.
On January 30 2017 06:32 seopthi wrote: Tl;dr: At least in Western culture, everyone should get a second chance. He did a wrong thing as a teenager under unknown circumstances and should be allowed to come out, explain what happened, apologize for it, and be an ambassador against shadiness that will still exist in any sport — as many players, previously banned for much worse things, have done in other sports.
A match fixer an ambassador against shadiness? I would find that shady in itself.
Fixing matches undermines the validity of a tournament. We don't want to see scripted entertainment, we want to see competition. The competition must not be tainted. If you fix a match, you deserve no second chance in this profession, nor an ambassadorial role. If you allow second chances, it would speak to all "Hey, just try and fix a match. If you don't get caught, good. If you get caught, take your second chance." I think that would be unfair to all who are playing by the rules.
Yes, the Life story is tragic. Showing any mercy to match fixing however could result in more fixed matches. I am not against special leagues in which fixing is allowed. But if you play a normal tournament, you cannot allow a player being bought off to lose a match.
On January 30 2017 22:03 quirinus wrote: If a lawyer does something illegal, he can never be a lawyer again, and he'll be tried. Why should it be different for gamers?
if a football player, a baseball player, a nba player etc does something illegal, most of the time they can come back after they served their sentence. why should it be different for gamers?
I do think the penalty is a bit too harsh, but they can't change the precedent now. It should also depend on the case. Banning a player for a few years is not that much different from banning them forever.
I'm not sure how they handle things like that in Korea, it might be different to other parts of the world.
The lawyer thing is forever/harsher probably because they can ruin people's lives.
On January 30 2017 22:03 quirinus wrote: If a lawyer does something illegal, he can never be a lawyer again, and he'll be tried. Why should it be different for gamers?
if a football player, a baseball player, a nba player etc does something illegal, most of the time they can come back after they served their sentence. why should it be different for gamers?
Matchfixing in traditional sports mostly result in long bans as well.
Yeah Pete Rose was banned from baseball for life for betting as an owner and he didn't even bet on his own games.
Odd though how when you're found guilty of assault or domestic abuse you get suspended for two games lol
Anyways, I was a huuuuuuuuuuuge fan of Life but I don't really want people adding to his "defense". Just let it go and forget about him. It's healthier for everyone. What he did was pretty terrible and SC2 has to completely move on from him. That includes the people I saw saying "His punishment should've been even more severe!" My strategy for not getting mad/sad about this is to just not think about him at all anymore.
OP certainly can have his own opinion. The opinions I want to hear though are from the sponsors and organizers. In SC1 there was so much pressure put on sponsors who were now stuck in a position where there money means sponsoring illegal betting or even worse the people behind the illegal betting. That bad image can't happen. Meanwhile the organizers are having to convince sponsors that this isn't a systematic problem and that they can overcome it. This happening again in SC2 means that it is systematic and that KESPA/organizers failed a second time to circumvent the problem. They are the ones that suffered and no amount of money paid back from Life could ever recover the damages match fixing caused.
On January 30 2017 22:03 quirinus wrote: If a lawyer does something illegal, he can never be a lawyer again, and he'll be tried. Why should it be different for gamers?
if a football player, a baseball player, a nba player etc does something illegal, most of the time they can come back after they served their sentence. why should it be different for gamers?
Matchfixing in traditional sports mostly result in long bans as well.
Yeah Pete Rose was banned from baseball for life for betting as an owner and he didn't even bet on his own games.
Odd though how when you're found guilty of assault or domestic abuse you get suspended for two games lol
Anyways, I was a huuuuuuuuuuuge fan of Life but I don't really want people adding to his "defense". Just let it go and forget about him. It's healthier for everyone. What he did was pretty terrible and SC2 has to completely move on from him. That includes the people I saw saying "His punishment should've been even more severe!" My strategy for not getting mad/sad about this is to just not think about him at all anymore.
with new evidence coming to light in the Pete Rose betting scandal the facts have changed several times. Your current version of the facts is outdated. Rose bet ON THE REDS AS A PLAYER. An important factor is that he never bet AGAINST his own team. He did not actually throw games away and lose intentionally. Still , he has inside info no one else has about both teams giving him a huge advantage as a bettor and making him vulnerable to influence from the CRIMINAL SYNDICATE he placed bets with. He placed bets with ORGANIZED CRIMINALS not in a Las Vegas legal casino.
Now if Pete Rose were very poorly paid and a criminal gambling syndicate paid him millions to throw games i would not blame him one bit. But, that is not the case here. Rose was very well paid throughout his playing and management career. People moralizing about people who throw games must keep in mind the context. If the player is being paid almost nothing to play a game where large bets are made we're setting up an environment for match fixing.
PAY THE PLAYERS a decent minimum salary to mitigate the urge to take a pay-off for match fixing
On January 30 2017 22:03 quirinus wrote: If a lawyer does something illegal, he can never be a lawyer again, and he'll be tried. Why should it be different for gamers?
if a football player, a baseball player, a nba player etc does something illegal, most of the time they can come back after they served their sentence. why should it be different for gamers?
Matchfixing in traditional sports mostly result in long bans as well.
Yeah Pete Rose was banned from baseball for life for betting as an owner and he didn't even bet on his own games.
Odd though how when you're found guilty of assault or domestic abuse you get suspended for two games lol
Anyways, I was a huuuuuuuuuuuge fan of Life but I don't really want people adding to his "defense". Just let it go and forget about him. It's healthier for everyone. What he did was pretty terrible and SC2 has to completely move on from him. That includes the people I saw saying "His punishment should've been even more severe!" My strategy for not getting mad/sad about this is to just not think about him at all anymore.
with new evidence coming to light in the Pete Rose betting scandal the facts have changed several times. Your current version of the facts is outdated. Rose bet ON THE REDS AS A PLAYER. An important factor is that he never bet AGAINST his own team. He did not actually throw games away and lose intentionally. Still , he has inside info no one else has about both teams giving him a huge advantage as a bettor and making him vulnerable to influence from the CRIMINAL SYNDICATE he placed bets with. He placed bets with ORGANIZED CRIMINALS not in a Las Vegas legal casino.
Now if Pete Rose were very poorly paid and a criminal gambling syndicate paid him millions to throw games i would not blame him one bit. But, that is not the case here. Rose was very well paid throughout his playing and management career. People moralizing about people who throw games must keep in mind the context. If the player is being paid almost nothing to play a game where large bets are made we're setting up an environment for match fixing.
PAY THE PLAYERS a decent minimum salary to mitigate the urge to take a pay-off for match fixing
My lack of actual baseball knowledge has been exposed. There was a drunk guy at the sports bar last week ranting to me about how it is a crime against humanity that Pete Rose isn't in the HoF
But my point was really just that the guy saying that professional sports players can come back after doing something illegal was wrong e.g. Pete Rose
On January 30 2017 21:52 evolsiefil wrote: i find it weird how so many in this thread are thinking in black and white only. there is those who are like whatever he just cheated in a videogame let him play again and those who are like lol what he did was so severe he shouldve gotten 50 years of hard labor.
the reality however is this. it was his first offense for all we know and the kid paid for it. he spend 2 month in jail, has a few additonal years on probation, had to pay a signifacant amount of money AND was banned from competitive play for over a year now. with all due respect to those who believe otherwise, i strongly believe he should be allowed to redeem himself. publicly apologize and be allowed to compete again on probation.
everyone deserves a second chance, especially after they took their punishment like a man.
and just for the record, if he wanted to, i think he could. kespa is gone from sc2, and i highly doubt blizzard would insist on a perma ban like kespa did. if he formally apologized and asked for a second chance, im 100% positive they would allow it.
I'm sure Blizzard removed Life's name from the Blizzcon trophy and GSL removed him from their wall of champions to signify that they'd be willing to give him a second chance.
The reality is this - as much as some people might want him to return, you have to realize, even if he were allowed to, it wouldn't be a good idea for him to actually do it. Return to the stage of the greatest failure in his life? Constantly confronted with the venom of the Korean fans who will never forgive him for the damage he did to their scene? Maybe run into match-fixers once more and run into the same trouble all over again? Why would he want any of this?
He might become the ultimate supervillian of SC2 if he returns. Innovation vs Life in 2017 could become the SC2 equivalent of Usain Bolt vs Justin Gatlin, and it might just be epic... just sayin'
On January 30 2017 21:52 evolsiefil wrote: i find it weird how so many in this thread are thinking in black and white only. there is those who are like whatever he just cheated in a videogame let him play again and those who are like lol what he did was so severe he shouldve gotten 50 years of hard labor.
the reality however is this. it was his first offense for all we know and the kid paid for it. he spend 2 month in jail, has a few additonal years on probation, had to pay a signifacant amount of money AND was banned from competitive play for over a year now. with all due respect to those who believe otherwise, i strongly believe he should be allowed to redeem himself. publicly apologize and be allowed to compete again on probation.
everyone deserves a second chance, especially after they took their punishment like a man.
and just for the record, if he wanted to, i think he could. kespa is gone from sc2, and i highly doubt blizzard would insist on a perma ban like kespa did. if he formally apologized and asked for a second chance, im 100% positive they would allow it.
I'm sure Blizzard removed Life's name from the Blizzcon trophy and GSL removed him from their wall of champions to signify that they'd be willing to give him a second chance.
The reality is this - as much as some people might want him to return, you have to realize, even if he were allowed to, it wouldn't be a good idea for him to actually do it. Return to the stage of the greatest failure in his life? Constantly confronted with the venom of the Korean fans who will never forgive him for the damage he did to their scene? Maybe run into match-fixers once more and run into the same trouble all over again? Why would he want any of this?
He might become the ultimate supervillian of SC2 if he returns. Innovation vs Life in 2017 could become the SC2 equivalent of Usain Bolt vs Justin Gatlin, and it might just be epic... just sayin'
Except pretty much everyone knew that Bolt would beat Gatlin. Hasn't Gatlin never beaten him? Whereas Inno vs Life has always been back and forth
On January 30 2017 22:03 quirinus wrote: If a lawyer does something illegal, he can never be a lawyer again, and he'll be tried. Why should it be different for gamers?
if a football player, a baseball player, a nba player etc does something illegal, most of the time they can come back after they served their sentence. why should it be different for gamers?
Matchfixing in traditional sports mostly result in long bans as well.
Yeah Pete Rose was banned from baseball for life for betting as an owner and he didn't even bet on his own games.
Odd though how when you're found guilty of assault or domestic abuse you get suspended for two games lol
Anyways, I was a huuuuuuuuuuuge fan of Life but I don't really want people adding to his "defense". Just let it go and forget about him. It's healthier for everyone. What he did was pretty terrible and SC2 has to completely move on from him. That includes the people I saw saying "His punishment should've been even more severe!" My strategy for not getting mad/sad about this is to just not think about him at all anymore.
with new evidence coming to light in the Pete Rose betting scandal the facts have changed several times. Your current version of the facts is outdated. Rose bet ON THE REDS AS A PLAYER. An important factor is that he never bet AGAINST his own team. He did not actually throw games away and lose intentionally. Still , he has inside info no one else has about both teams giving him a huge advantage as a bettor and making him vulnerable to influence from the CRIMINAL SYNDICATE he placed bets with. He placed bets with ORGANIZED CRIMINALS not in a Las Vegas legal casino.
Now if Pete Rose were very poorly paid and a criminal gambling syndicate paid him millions to throw games i would not blame him one bit. But, that is not the case here. Rose was very well paid throughout his playing and management career. People moralizing about people who throw games must keep in mind the context. If the player is being paid almost nothing to play a game where large bets are made we're setting up an environment for match fixing.
PAY THE PLAYERS a decent minimum salary to mitigate the urge to take a pay-off for match fixing
My lack of actual baseball knowledge has been exposed. There was a drunk guy at the sports bar last week ranting to me about how it is a crime against humanity that Pete Rose isn't in the HoF
But my point was really just that the guy saying that professional sports players can come back after doing something illegal was wrong e.g. Pete Rose
betting on your own team using a CRIME SYNDICATE to take your bets compromises your position as a player; IF you lose the bet the crime syndicate wants you to do them a favour.
the rules about stiff punishment were clear before Rose bet. these rules were put in place due to a World Series being fixed early in the 20th century. Rose knew the punishment ahead of time.
On January 30 2017 21:52 evolsiefil wrote: i find it weird how so many in this thread are thinking in black and white only. there is those who are like whatever he just cheated in a videogame let him play again and those who are like lol what he did was so severe he shouldve gotten 50 years of hard labor.
the reality however is this. it was his first offense for all we know and the kid paid for it. he spend 2 month in jail, has a few additonal years on probation, had to pay a signifacant amount of money AND was banned from competitive play for over a year now. with all due respect to those who believe otherwise, i strongly believe he should be allowed to redeem himself. publicly apologize and be allowed to compete again on probation.
everyone deserves a second chance, especially after they took their punishment like a man.
and just for the record, if he wanted to, i think he could. kespa is gone from sc2, and i highly doubt blizzard would insist on a perma ban like kespa did. if he formally apologized and asked for a second chance, im 100% positive they would allow it.
I'm sure Blizzard removed Life's name from the Blizzcon trophy and GSL removed him from their wall of champions to signify that they'd be willing to give him a second chance.
The reality is this - as much as some people might want him to return, you have to realize, even if he were allowed to, it wouldn't be a good idea for him to actually do it. Return to the stage of the greatest failure in his life? Constantly confronted with the venom of the Korean fans who will never forgive him for the damage he did to their scene? Maybe run into match-fixers once more and run into the same trouble all over again? Why would he want any of this?
He might become the ultimate supervillian of SC2 if he returns. Innovation vs Life in 2017 could become the SC2 equivalent of Usain Bolt vs Justin Gatlin, and it might just be epic... just sayin'
Except pretty much everyone knew that Bolt would beat Gatlin. Hasn't Gatlin never beaten him? Whereas Inno vs Life has always been back and forth
Exactly. If the supervillian isn't be a mere walkover it would be so much more interesting to watch
On January 30 2017 21:52 evolsiefil wrote: i find it weird how so many in this thread are thinking in black and white only. there is those who are like whatever he just cheated in a videogame let him play again and those who are like lol what he did was so severe he shouldve gotten 50 years of hard labor.
the reality however is this. it was his first offense for all we know and the kid paid for it. he spend 2 month in jail, has a few additonal years on probation, had to pay a signifacant amount of money AND was banned from competitive play for over a year now. with all due respect to those who believe otherwise, i strongly believe he should be allowed to redeem himself. publicly apologize and be allowed to compete again on probation.
everyone deserves a second chance, especially after they took their punishment like a man.
and just for the record, if he wanted to, i think he could. kespa is gone from sc2, and i highly doubt blizzard would insist on a perma ban like kespa did. if he formally apologized and asked for a second chance, im 100% positive they would allow it.
I'm sure Blizzard removed Life's name from the Blizzcon trophy and GSL removed him from their wall of champions to signify that they'd be willing to give him a second chance.
The reality is this - as much as some people might want him to return, you have to realize, even if he were allowed to, it wouldn't be a good idea for him to actually do it. Return to the stage of the greatest failure in his life? Constantly confronted with the venom of the Korean fans who will never forgive him for the damage he did to their scene? Maybe run into match-fixers once more and run into the same trouble all over again? Why would he want any of this?
He might become the ultimate supervillian of SC2 if he returns. Innovation vs Life in 2017 could become the SC2 equivalent of Usain Bolt vs Justin Gatlin, and it might just be epic... just sayin'
And yet... It wasnt epic to me. Knowing an exposed fraud would meet a proper athlete (yet) was not in the slighest bit appealing to me.
Cause you see the (yet) ? Thats what people like Life and Gatlin do. They instill doubt in my (and some others too) mind. But if he did that and didnt get caught ? What about others ?
And then you cant appreciate anything cause your wondering if it was "fair", if it was played by the rules.
Im not in the white side nor in the black one. Life does not deserve death or w/e, yet he did deserve the sanctions he got. Kespa banned him from their midst, and justice punished him. He has served his sentence, now he can carry on. But he wont in sc2. He can mb carry on in another esport Game, even tho i highly doubt he will. Anyway, like former prisoners are discarded from society Just for being ex prisoners, i think his punishment plus the fact that this will follow him (at least in Korea) is vastly a good enough one.
I really wish we could just let it go. Not like constantly tearing up old wounds will make Kespa suddenly change their decision. He is gone for good, lets hope he has learned from his mistakes and finds his way in life.
Life, Savior, Hwasin, all of them, are now non-marketable characters. I mean, I have no trouble with them playing again, like streamers, the way BW is now. But no team/clan/org would consider paying them to advertise the brand. Imagine "Here's life, the cheating player that is also a degenerate gambler, playing for our brand. Now, go and buy shirts with our logo, he's such an amazing role model. He even apologized and said he'd never do it again.".
Life's actions have dealt a blow to the SC2 scene, so it's not a huge surprise to see so many people against him redeeming himself on the esports stage. I'm personally also not in favour of ever letting him play professionally again. Matchfixing is something which can never be allowed, and you need to send a strong signal that reflects this.
More importantly though, as some have pointed out: he was a kid who gained a lot of success and money at a young age and was probably insufficiently counseled on how to deal with this in a healthy way. The organizations that capitalized on his success are not free of blame. At 19 years old, you should be able to make ethical choices, but that's obviously not where the root of the problem lies. Mistakes were made in helping him at an earlier age, and the matchfixing scandal was a painful example of that. I just hope he can find a way to learn from his mistakes and find happiness in life.
-------------------------------------------------------------- and now for something completely different: --------------------------------------------------------------
On January 30 2017 06:32 seopthi wrote:..., the most enjoyable part are seeing the most talented players. It is about seeing the genius of Michael Jordan, Magnus Carlsen, Tiger Woods, Phil Ivey, or in extreme AlphaGo.
As a go player I have to feel somewhat upset you chose the AI opponent here instead of any number of exciting people that play the game at a high level. What about the Lee Sedol vs Gu Li ten game match, or Iiyama Yuta holding all seven national titles simultaneously? Or if you want foreigner pride, why not root for Antti Tormanen, the first western player to turn pro in Japan in almost a decade. There have been some great events in recent years in go, but I can't understand why people get so worked up about an algorithm steadily improving to the point where it can consistently beat human players.
On January 30 2017 15:10 Voltz_sc21 wrote: He's only banned from kespa IIRC. With kespa gone, nothing is really stopping him. He could come back whenever he is out of jail if he didn't mind the community backlash.
except for the fact that nobody would want to play against him.
How could you even know that? Have you asked pros?
would you willingly work with someone who threatened you livelihood?
this is just selfish behaviour and I question your commitment to a legitimate competition.
I don't think that is a completely honest statement. This same guy who damaged the pro scene, is the same guy who brought it to new heights. Arguably, he was subject to addiction. Friends of his have gone on record saying he would lose tens of thousands of dollars a night at the oversea casinos. Since gambling is illegal in Korea, it is not impossible to believe that he lost a ton of money illegally betting in korea, and needed to pay up to some mean people.
On top of the jail time and fines, he probably lost all of his friends. Who even knows if his family still talks to him. The shame he must carry, the public scrutiny, I think he has undergone enough punishment. I would welcome him back, though, I'm not sure he would want to come back. I wish him well~
We that's what you get for cheating and help to ruin the scene where everyone near him had a huge investment on. If he's being treated like a criminal or not, it's call that his friends and people around him make bc they know things better there. I wish life all the best as well but I also want him to be punished appropriately.
No. If Life were to play again, every single time he played and lost, there would always be the question of whether he was match-fixing again. The amount of damage he and the match-fixing scandal has done to the scene should not be understated. He should never be allowed to compete again.
if only he hadn't done it in the first place. the damage is done, I have no interest in watching him play any game. If he's allowed to do it again, well why not, I don't care and I won't support him.
it's also unfair to start a #freeLife movement while disregarding other match fixers.
On January 30 2017 22:03 quirinus wrote: If a lawyer does something illegal, he can never be a lawyer again, and he'll be tried. Why should it be different for gamers?
if a football player, a baseball player, a nba player etc does something illegal, most of the time they can come back after they served their sentence. why should it be different for gamers?
Matchfixing in traditional sports mostly result in long bans as well.
Yeah Pete Rose was banned from baseball for life for betting as an owner and he didn't even bet on his own games.
Odd though how when you're found guilty of assault or domestic abuse you get suspended for two games lol
Anyways, I was a huuuuuuuuuuuge fan of Life but I don't really want people adding to his "defense". Just let it go and forget about him. It's healthier for everyone. What he did was pretty terrible and SC2 has to completely move on from him. That includes the people I saw saying "His punishment should've been even more severe!" My strategy for not getting mad/sad about this is to just not think about him at all anymore.
with new evidence coming to light in the Pete Rose betting scandal the facts have changed several times. Your current version of the facts is outdated. Rose bet ON THE REDS AS A PLAYER. An important factor is that he never bet AGAINST his own team. He did not actually throw games away and lose intentionally. Still , he has inside info no one else has about both teams giving him a huge advantage as a bettor and making him vulnerable to influence from the CRIMINAL SYNDICATE he placed bets with. He placed bets with ORGANIZED CRIMINALS not in a Las Vegas legal casino.
Now if Pete Rose were very poorly paid and a criminal gambling syndicate paid him millions to throw games i would not blame him one bit. But, that is not the case here. Rose was very well paid throughout his playing and management career. People moralizing about people who throw games must keep in mind the context. If the player is being paid almost nothing to play a game where large bets are made we're setting up an environment for match fixing.
PAY THE PLAYERS a decent minimum salary to mitigate the urge to take a pay-off for match fixing
My lack of actual baseball knowledge has been exposed. There was a drunk guy at the sports bar last week ranting to me about how it is a crime against humanity that Pete Rose isn't in the HoF
But my point was really just that the guy saying that professional sports players can come back after doing something illegal was wrong e.g. Pete Rose
betting on your own team using a CRIME SYNDICATE to take your bets compromises your position as a player with you lose the bet the crime syndicate wants you to do them a favour.
the rules about stiff punishment were clear before Rose bet. these rules were put in place due to a World Series being fixed early in the 20th century. Rose knew the punishment ahead of time.
Friend, I never argued for or against Pete Rose's punishment. I used it as a trad sports example to compare to Life's punishment. I could not care less what Rose's punishment is or if it's justified I was just using it as an example
You follow me? I don't need to be convinced Pete Rose is guilty lmao
I forgive him as a person but once people lose trust in the spirit of competition when you are involved you can't play again.
Everyone makes mistakes and I'm not here to prove to everyone how much of an unforgiving, angry person I can be like a lot of people in this thread. Nobody knows except for Life what pressure he felt and whether he felt threatened by Korean gamblers. It's just really unfortunate that he succumbed to it.
On January 30 2017 22:03 quirinus wrote: If a lawyer does something illegal, he can never be a lawyer again, and he'll be tried. Why should it be different for gamers?
if a football player, a baseball player, a nba player etc does something illegal, most of the time they can come back after they served their sentence. why should it be different for gamers?
Matchfixing in traditional sports mostly result in long bans as well.
Yeah Pete Rose was banned from baseball for life for betting as an owner and he didn't even bet on his own games.
Odd though how when you're found guilty of assault or domestic abuse you get suspended for two games lol
Anyways, I was a huuuuuuuuuuuge fan of Life but I don't really want people adding to his "defense". Just let it go and forget about him. It's healthier for everyone. What he did was pretty terrible and SC2 has to completely move on from him. That includes the people I saw saying "His punishment should've been even more severe!" My strategy for not getting mad/sad about this is to just not think about him at all anymore.
with new evidence coming to light in the Pete Rose betting scandal the facts have changed several times. Your current version of the facts is outdated. Rose bet ON THE REDS AS A PLAYER. An important factor is that he never bet AGAINST his own team. He did not actually throw games away and lose intentionally. Still , he has inside info no one else has about both teams giving him a huge advantage as a bettor and making him vulnerable to influence from the CRIMINAL SYNDICATE he placed bets with. He placed bets with ORGANIZED CRIMINALS not in a Las Vegas legal casino.
Now if Pete Rose were very poorly paid and a criminal gambling syndicate paid him millions to throw games i would not blame him one bit. But, that is not the case here. Rose was very well paid throughout his playing and management career. People moralizing about people who throw games must keep in mind the context. If the player is being paid almost nothing to play a game where large bets are made we're setting up an environment for match fixing.
PAY THE PLAYERS a decent minimum salary to mitigate the urge to take a pay-off for match fixing
My lack of actual baseball knowledge has been exposed. There was a drunk guy at the sports bar last week ranting to me about how it is a crime against humanity that Pete Rose isn't in the HoF
But my point was really just that the guy saying that professional sports players can come back after doing something illegal was wrong e.g. Pete Rose
betting on your own team using a CRIME SYNDICATE to take your bets compromises your position as a player with you lose the bet the crime syndicate wants you to do them a favour.
the rules about stiff punishment were clear before Rose bet. these rules were put in place due to a World Series being fixed early in the 20th century. Rose knew the punishment ahead of time.
Friend, I never argued for or against Pete Rose's punishment. I used it as a trad sports example to compare to Life's punishment. I could not care less what Rose's punishment is or if it's justified I was just using it as an example
You follow me? I don't need to be convinced Pete Rose is guilty lmao
i'm not arguing or debating. a response to your post does not mean disagreement. do you follow me?
you said some guy thinks Rose should be in the HoF. I provide a different perspective. Rose already acknowledged his guilt. The only question now is the punishment levied for the wrongdoing.
On January 30 2017 22:03 quirinus wrote: If a lawyer does something illegal, he can never be a lawyer again, and he'll be tried. Why should it be different for gamers?
if a football player, a baseball player, a nba player etc does something illegal, most of the time they can come back after they served their sentence. why should it be different for gamers?
Matchfixing in traditional sports mostly result in long bans as well.
Yeah Pete Rose was banned from baseball for life for betting as an owner and he didn't even bet on his own games.
Odd though how when you're found guilty of assault or domestic abuse you get suspended for two games lol
Anyways, I was a huuuuuuuuuuuge fan of Life but I don't really want people adding to his "defense". Just let it go and forget about him. It's healthier for everyone. What he did was pretty terrible and SC2 has to completely move on from him. That includes the people I saw saying "His punishment should've been even more severe!" My strategy for not getting mad/sad about this is to just not think about him at all anymore.
with new evidence coming to light in the Pete Rose betting scandal the facts have changed several times. Your current version of the facts is outdated. Rose bet ON THE REDS AS A PLAYER. An important factor is that he never bet AGAINST his own team. He did not actually throw games away and lose intentionally. Still , he has inside info no one else has about both teams giving him a huge advantage as a bettor and making him vulnerable to influence from the CRIMINAL SYNDICATE he placed bets with. He placed bets with ORGANIZED CRIMINALS not in a Las Vegas legal casino.
Now if Pete Rose were very poorly paid and a criminal gambling syndicate paid him millions to throw games i would not blame him one bit. But, that is not the case here. Rose was very well paid throughout his playing and management career. People moralizing about people who throw games must keep in mind the context. If the player is being paid almost nothing to play a game where large bets are made we're setting up an environment for match fixing.
PAY THE PLAYERS a decent minimum salary to mitigate the urge to take a pay-off for match fixing
My lack of actual baseball knowledge has been exposed. There was a drunk guy at the sports bar last week ranting to me about how it is a crime against humanity that Pete Rose isn't in the HoF
But my point was really just that the guy saying that professional sports players can come back after doing something illegal was wrong e.g. Pete Rose
betting on your own team using a CRIME SYNDICATE to take your bets compromises your position as a player with you lose the bet the crime syndicate wants you to do them a favour.
the rules about stiff punishment were clear before Rose bet. these rules were put in place due to a World Series being fixed early in the 20th century. Rose knew the punishment ahead of time.
Friend, I never argued for or against Pete Rose's punishment. I used it as a trad sports example to compare to Life's punishment. I could not care less what Rose's punishment is or if it's justified I was just using it as an example
You follow me? I don't need to be convinced Pete Rose is guilty lmao
i'm not arguing or debating. a response to your post does not mean disagreement. do you follow me?
you said some guy thinks Rose should be in the HoF. I provide a different perspective. Rose already acknowledged his guilt. The only question now is the punishment levied for the wrongdoing.
Is "I DONT GIVE A SHIT ABOUT THE NUANCES OF PETE ROSE'S CRIMES AGAINST BASEBALL OR PUNISHMENT LEVIED" clear enough? Lmao I used it to show the guy earlier that in traditional sports people also can be banned for life for a similar offense.
In response you've typed a few paragraphs to me about the specifics of Pete Rose's case. Your original correction of my incorrect assertion that he bet as an owner and not a player was well founded but beyond that I don't know why you're so hype about explaining this to me. I don't care at all about Pete Rose or baseball for that matter. It's just the most famous example of a player banned for sports gambling lol
Admittedly i couldn't care less about a specific incident (i know, for instance that i am totally incapable of gauging the importance of his individual influence (getting caught) over esports/sc2...) and i am much more interested in all the other "hidden" aspects.. but i think it is a clear symptom that so many people would post their opinion while totally discarding these unanswered questions and "buy" the version that he is just a rotten apple in the middle of a perfect place.
Really? Has his permanent banning set an example.. really? i happen to think that match fixing comes from betting (you can never really stop illegal betting) and a"betting corporate machine" is what esports is becoming (most of the money will come from legal betting on esports (go check data if you think i'm crazy)).. .. isn't it that betting makes sports/esports able to become unsound/unpure.
Also the criminal influence on betting in kr's esports is well known.. and what criminals do is precisely that (it takes people on top because they are worth more to their business) .. so to dismiss any possibility that he was pressured into it or even that he was a scapegoat is quite weird.
i guess we will know in 10 years (as things do end up coming out a decade later usually) .. but it is really saddening to see what this thread showcases.
In any case, while i am all for punishment when people do cross "lines" (lines that i do think must be there, we should all thrive to work hard and not belittle what we do if in the course of our lives and we should be punished if we do belittle those precious things).. i do think intrinsically punishment is a start, not an end! And all the people here seem to think different..
Here is the thing that I think the OP needs to understand: Life wouldn't get a chance for redemption even if he was allowed back in, because the sport would not survive "greenlighting" match fixing.
Tournaments only work when they are legitimate, authentic affairs. Match fixing is illegal, destroys the integrity of tournaments, and casts a shadow over all tournaments and the sport as a whole.
If you allow people to illegally profiteer off matches, and then you allow them back in, your tournaments mean nothing, because then everyone would throw matches. You make way more money fixing matches than you do by winning matches, and while the best players can do both, everyone can match fix. You're not even guaranteed to get caught, but if you do then you don't even really suffer for it since A.) you got rich and B.) you can just come back to the game in a little while. This would never ever work and would be the death of any sport that allowed it.
Even worse though is the idea of letting a player back into tournament play after match fixing but only because they are "the best of the best". This is quite frankly insane because it hurts the sport MORE when the very best, most visible player throws games, not less. Letting the top players "have a gimme" because they're just so good and cool is giving carte blanche to break the law and shit all over the game you love. You'd have the top players constantly throwing games and raking in the cash because why the hell wouldn't they?
Look, I agree that life was a kid when this happened. 19 year olds don't make good decisions. I don't think it's right to demonize him! If someone offered me 50k to throw a game that didn't impact my life in a meaningful way I don't know if I'd be able to resist, and I'm in my 30s. But that doesn't and can't impact the decisionmaking process when it comes to tournaments, competition, cash prizes, and all that jazz.
This has nothing to do with redemption - life doesn't need redemption. He's got money, can keep making money off his talents, can keep playing the game he loves and can switch games and probably compete in other leagues if he wants to. This is about whether or not you want the sport to survive a match-fixing scandal. Your competition means nothing when you give people passes for throwing games for money, and it will not survive. Life wouldn't get a chance for redemption either way.
I believe Life's match fixing scandal is the big domino in SC2 that fell over to mark its steady downward climb as a major esport. He cost alot of people careers and money. Any return would subject every game he plays to intense scrutiny, something that is unfair to his opponent because it adds pressure to them. If they are falsely accused of match fixing their career could be over for no other reason than they played vs Life.
I loved watching Life play. I don't ever want to see him play again.
Make no mistake about it, the Life match-fixing issue is one of the primary reasons that KeSPa dropped support for Starcraft 2. It had a massive impact that foreign fans might not truly understand because they have no real knowledge of the business realities in South Korea.
Life should never, ever be allowed back into this scene and the damage he and others involved did to Starcraft 2 will be felt forever.
On January 31 2017 07:25 ClanWars wrote: Make no mistake about it, the Life match-fixing issue is one of the primary reasons that KeSPa dropped support for Starcraft 2. It had a massive impact that foreign fans might not truly understand because they have no real knowledge of the business realities in South Korea.
Life should never, ever be allowed back into this scene and the damage he and others involved did to Starcraft 2 will be felt forever.
But you see welcoming a known match-fixer back into your tournament is a great way to improve confidence in your product
On January 31 2017 07:28 fluidrone wrote: Who said anything about "just one day" deciding he can come back"?
He should have to earn that right, not just get it.
If by that you mean "bring back all the sponsors and organizations that left due to the scandal and also rebuild viewer confidence in your sport from the ground up" then yeah ok you got me there
Except those things aren't possible and his presence would make them worse.
But you see welcoming a known match-fixer back into your tournament is a great way to improve confidence in your product
I'm sure. In fact it's probably all we need to receive lucrative sponsorship agreements from Coca Cola, Goldman Sachs, the entire South Korean electronics industry and at least one major airline.
On January 31 2017 07:25 ClanWars wrote: Make no mistake about it, the Life match-fixing issue is one of the primary reasons that KeSPa dropped support for Starcraft 2. It had a massive impact that foreign fans might not truly understand because they have no real knowledge of the business realities in South Korea.
Life should never, ever be allowed back into this scene and the damage he and others involved did to Starcraft 2 will be felt forever.
But you see welcoming a known match-fixer back into your tournament is a great way to improve confidence in your product
On January 31 2017 07:28 fluidrone wrote: Who said anything about "just one day" deciding he can come back"?
He should have to earn that right, not just get it.
If by that you mean "bring back all the sponsors and organizations that left due to the scandal and also rebuild viewer confidence in your sport from the ground up" then yeah ok you got me there
Except those things aren't possible and his presence would make them worse.
I'm all for second chances but he literally contributed to the downfall of professional sc2. I don't care if he apologizes or not, he should continue to be banned from all events. The impact he had on the scene can never be fixed and the scene has suffered because of him. Keep him out for good. On another subject, do we really need rehash old news? Are we running out of things to cover?
On January 31 2017 07:54 RealityIsKing wrote: Come you are going to let a guy who single handily destroyed SC2 eSport to come back?
I thought we are better than this.
My favorite part about the Life scandal is how it allows people to ignore the fact that SC2 had been in decline for two/three years prior and blame the downfall of the game on this singular event
No doubt it was extremely important but let's not pretend the scene was thriving before hand
I don't agree that life matchfixing was responsible for ruining SC2 esports , scene was already doing poorly and players retiring going back to BW. it didn't exactly help but shit was going bad already IIRC.
I'd want him back because most zerg players are kind of bad or uninspiring right now and life made things interesting.
Life is not to blame for everything wrong with competitive SC2.
That does not mean he should ever be allowed back into it or in any competitive game ever again. The damage he and the others involved did was real, permanent and thoroughly not understood properly by foreign fans.
On January 31 2017 07:25 ClanWars wrote: Make no mistake about it, the Life match-fixing issue is one of the primary reasons that KeSPa dropped support for Starcraft 2. It had a massive impact that foreign fans might not truly understand because they have no real knowledge of the business realities in South Korea.
Life should never, ever be allowed back into this scene and the damage he and others involved did to Starcraft 2 will be felt forever.
But you see welcoming a known match-fixer back into your tournament is a great way to improve confidence in your product
On January 31 2017 07:28 fluidrone wrote: Who said anything about "just one day" deciding he can come back"?
He should have to earn that right, not just get it.
If by that you mean "bring back all the sponsors and organizations that left due to the scandal and also rebuild viewer confidence in your sport from the ground up" then yeah ok you got me there
Except those things aren't possible and his presence would make them worse.
(and when i say "you" i mean you and all the people who agree with you and felt they had to post in this thread saying it, nothing personal )
You like hypotheticals? i hate those but i'll try one:
What if he was allowed back and gave all the money to charity and won everything? + Show Spoiler +
No i don't think he will do that.. but your "it would be worse if he came back" stance is just as fictional based
Ah yes the sponsors that left the game when he was found to be match fixing and banned are going to be even more likely to come back when the known match fixer is re-enlisted.
Do you really need proof to suss this one out? Sponsors are risk-averse and aren't going to throw money into the thresher that is tainted goods.
Not to mention SC2 was already in decline and the scandal represented a perfect exit strategy. Come on dude
That guy who got warned however many pages back is completely right- The TL community is indeed full of arrogant people. Chock full of teenage bandwagoning, clickyness, and hive mind thinking. With the older and more experienced among them not doing the younger ones any favors.
Every time I see Life or Savior brought up, people talk as if one them were the dark stranger who murdered their family and of course, ever-so-wounded, "they will NEVER" forgive them. What makes you all so entitled to think you should have any opinion at all as to what they should or should not do with their lives now? Entitled to how much (or really any) hate that should be given to them?
The only thing you are entitled to is to feel hurt, if you were actually a fan. Disappointed. Let down. But to think your disappointment ever grants you a free pass to hate someone, or that your speculation or your baseless analogies grant you some sort of special understanding, is the very definition of arrogance. And dare I say ignorance.
I honestly don't think about Life all that much. I browsed the thread out of curiosity as to what popular opinion currently was, and I am leaving disgusted. I hope that a good portion of you revisit your replies and your feelings here. Because if so many of you can so easily condemn these 2 (whom most of you have have only met through your internet browsers) like some fallen angels to prison and hell, as if you understood their circumstances and as if you were their arbiters, or as if anyone in this life deserves condemnation, then, I am saddened to think how you will treat others in the politics of your small lives.
Seriously fellas you're better than this. All of you.
On January 31 2017 13:12 Vansetsu wrote: Everyone deserves forgiveness. Everyone.
That guy who got warned however many pages back is completely right- The TL community is indeed full of arrogant people. Chock full of teenage bandwagoning, clickyness, and hive mind thinking. With the older and more experienced among them not doing the younger ones any favors.
Every time I see Life or Savior brought up, people talk as if one them were the dark stranger who murdered their family and of course, ever-so-wounded, "they will NEVER" forgive them. What makes you all so entitled to think you should have any opinion at all as to what they should or should not do with their lives now? Entitled to how much (or really any) hate that should be given to them?
The only thing you are entitled to is to feel hurt, if you were actually a fan. Disappointed. Let down. But to think your disappointment ever grants you a free pass to hate someone, or that your speculation or your baseless analogies grant you some sort of special understanding, is the very definition of arrogance. And dare I say ignorance.
I honestly don't think about Life all that much. I browsed the thread out of curiosity as to what popular opinion currently was, and I am leaving disgusted. I hope that a good portion of you revisit your replies and your feelings here. Because if so many of you can so easily condemn these 2 (whom most of you have have only met through your internet browsers) like some fallen angels to prison and hell, as if you understood their circumstances and as if you were their arbiters, or as if anyone in this life deserves condemnation, then, I am saddened to think how you will treat others in the politics of your small lives.
Seriously fellas you're better than this. All of you.
Stop painting the picture as if Life/Savior are victims here. They ruined the integrity of competitive starcraft. Everyone has the right to hate both of them for what they've done. You do not get to decide when, how or any reasons why someone can or can't hate someone. You are not the one who decides that. Life /Savior are a disgrace to starcraft and are not welcome to compete.
On January 31 2017 14:01 ParkB0m wrote: Let the kid stream on Twitch. His very first stream would probably break 15k, and get SC2 back up to the top 10 games watched.
yeah lets bring back the days of Mafreeca, because there was no added toxicity back then.
On January 31 2017 13:12 Vansetsu wrote: Everyone deserves forgiveness. Everyone.
That guy who got warned however many pages back is completely right- The TL community is indeed full of arrogant people. Chock full of teenage bandwagoning, clickyness, and hive mind thinking. With the older and more experienced among them not doing the younger ones any favors.
Every time I see Life or Savior brought up, people talk as if one them were the dark stranger who murdered their family and of course, ever-so-wounded, "they will NEVER" forgive them. What makes you all so entitled to think you should have any opinion at all as to what they should or should not do with their lives now? Entitled to how much (or really any) hate that should be given to them?
The only thing you are entitled to is to feel hurt, if you were actually a fan. Disappointed. Let down. But to think your disappointment ever grants you a free pass to hate someone, or that your speculation or your baseless analogies grant you some sort of special understanding, is the very definition of arrogance. And dare I say ignorance.
I honestly don't think about Life all that much. I browsed the thread out of curiosity as to what popular opinion currently was, and I am leaving disgusted. I hope that a good portion of you revisit your replies and your feelings here. Because if so many of you can so easily condemn these 2 (whom most of you have have only met through your internet browsers) like some fallen angels to prison and hell, as if you understood their circumstances and as if you were their arbiters, or as if anyone in this life deserves condemnation, then, I am saddened to think how you will treat others in the politics of your small lives.
Seriously fellas you're better than this. All of you.
Everyone? Dunno about that. And who are you to tell people how they should feel? Seems awfully arrogant to me.
Had Life thrown an important game on purpose for filthy lucre, I would have been sad and disappointed because of the potential awesomeness that could have been. Would I fault Life for such a choice? No. As a competitor, Life owed, owes and will continue to owe absolutely nothing to anyone. He can feel like fooling around. He can plant manner-Hatcheries wherever he pleases. He can explode all his Banelings to taunt his opponent. He can Probe-rush. He can quit whenever he feels like it even if he is way ahead. He can be playing poorly because he slept poorly because he doesn't respect his opponent because he simply doesn't care etc etc.
However, I do think that matchfixing is something to be discouraged. Contrary to what seems to be popular belief around here, I think banning competitors who are found guilty of matchfixing from competition is not the best approach to discourage matchfixing. In an ideal world, competitors would refrain from matchfixing because they care only about greatness and glory; not money. In actuality, what would discourage matchfixing is "fans" not engaging in betting.
On January 31 2017 14:50 SKNielsen1989 wrote: Had Life thrown an important game on purpose for filthy lucre, I would have been sad and disappointed because of the potential awesomeness that could have been. Would I fault Life for such a choice? No. As a competitor, Life owed, owes and will continue to owe absolutely nothing to anyone. He can feel like fooling around. He can plant manner-Hatcheries wherever he pleases. He can explode all his Banelings to taunt his opponent. He can Probe-rush. He can quit whenever he feels like it even if he is way ahead. He can be playing poorly because he slept poorly because he doesn't respect his opponent because he simply doesn't care etc etc.
However, I do think that matchfixing is something to be discouraged. Contrary to what seems to be popular belief around here, I think banning competitors who are found guilty of matchfixing from competition is not the best approach to discourage matchfixing. In an ideal world, competitors would refrain from matchfixing because they care only about greatness and glory; not money. In actuality, what would discourage matchfixing is "fans" not engaging in betting.
Placing the burden on fans not to bet on games is not going to solve the issue. The fans aren't throwing matches, the players were. The players are responsible for this, not the fans. Harsh punishment and permanent exile is the only way to make pro-gamers to think twice about this sort of conduct. It's a shame when a player is willing to sacrifice his integrity due to greed.
On January 31 2017 14:50 SKNielsen1989 wrote: Had Life thrown an important game on purpose for filthy lucre, I would have been sad and disappointed because of the potential awesomeness that could have been. Would I fault Life for such a choice? No. As a competitor, Life owed, owes and will continue to owe absolutely nothing to anyone. He can feel like fooling around. He can plant manner-Hatcheries wherever he pleases. He can explode all his Banelings to taunt his opponent. He can Probe-rush. He can quit whenever he feels like it even if he is way ahead. He can be playing poorly because he slept poorly because he doesn't respect his opponent because he simply doesn't care etc etc.
However, I do think that matchfixing is something to be discouraged. Contrary to what seems to be popular belief around here, I think banning competitors who are found guilty of matchfixing from competition is not the best approach to discourage matchfixing. In an ideal world, competitors would refrain from matchfixing because they care only about greatness and glory; not money. In actuality, what would discourage matchfixing is "fans" not engaging in betting.
Placing the burden on fans not to bet on games is not going to solve the issue. The fans aren't throwing matches, the players were. The players are responsible for this, not the fans. Harsh punishment and permanent exile is the only way to make pro-gamers to think twice about this sort of conduct. It's a shame when a player is willing to sacrifice his integrity due to greed.
You don't think fans love StarCraft enough to give up betting?
On January 31 2017 14:50 SKNielsen1989 wrote: Had Life thrown an important game on purpose for filthy lucre, I would have been sad and disappointed because of the potential awesomeness that could have been. Would I fault Life for such a choice? No. As a competitor, Life owed, owes and will continue to owe absolutely nothing to anyone. He can feel like fooling around. He can plant manner-Hatcheries wherever he pleases. He can explode all his Banelings to taunt his opponent. He can Probe-rush. He can quit whenever he feels like it even if he is way ahead. He can be playing poorly because he slept poorly because he doesn't respect his opponent because he simply doesn't care etc etc.
However, I do think that matchfixing is something to be discouraged. Contrary to what seems to be popular belief around here, I think banning competitors who are found guilty of matchfixing from competition is not the best approach to discourage matchfixing. In an ideal world, competitors would refrain from matchfixing because they care only about greatness and glory; not money. In actuality, what would discourage matchfixing is "fans" not engaging in betting.
Placing the burden on fans not to bet on games is not going to solve the issue. The fans aren't throwing matches, the players were. The players are responsible for this, not the fans. Harsh punishment and permanent exile is the only way to make pro-gamers to think twice about this sort of conduct. It's a shame when a player is willing to sacrifice his integrity due to greed.
is that why people keep doing it? because the harsh punishment makes them think twice? come on
On January 31 2017 14:50 SKNielsen1989 wrote: Had Life thrown an important game on purpose for filthy lucre, I would have been sad and disappointed because of the potential awesomeness that could have been. Would I fault Life for such a choice? No. As a competitor, Life owed, owes and will continue to owe absolutely nothing to anyone. He can feel like fooling around. He can plant manner-Hatcheries wherever he pleases. He can explode all his Banelings to taunt his opponent. He can Probe-rush. He can quit whenever he feels like it even if he is way ahead. He can be playing poorly because he slept poorly because he doesn't respect his opponent because he simply doesn't care etc etc.
However, I do think that matchfixing is something to be discouraged. Contrary to what seems to be popular belief around here, I think banning competitors who are found guilty of matchfixing from competition is not the best approach to discourage matchfixing. In an ideal world, competitors would refrain from matchfixing because they care only about greatness and glory; not money. In actuality, what would discourage matchfixing is "fans" not engaging in betting.
Placing the burden on fans not to bet on games is not going to solve the issue. The fans aren't throwing matches, the players were. The players are responsible for this, not the fans. Harsh punishment and permanent exile is the only way to make pro-gamers to think twice about this sort of conduct. It's a shame when a player is willing to sacrifice his integrity due to greed.
is that why people keep doing it? because the harsh punishment makes them think twice? come on
Greed is why someone makes the choice in the first place. Once they are caught, they are exiled. Anyone who values their professional status won't matchfix. Why? Because if you don't, you'll get exiled and never be allowed back. This is how it is. Do it and get exiled because matchfixing in esports(or any sport) damages the integrity of competition. Unfortunately we have had some bad apples in the past, luckily those apples are no longer apart of the community(and will remain exiled).
The OP just tossing out the utilitarian argument as simply that the ends never justify the means is ridiculous in the first place lol.
I'm just gonna throw this one out there, even though what Life did was wrong, saying that at 19 he had a full grasp of what he was doing is specious. We know from science that people's brains are not fully developed until later, and the part that is last to develop regards consequences, punishments, and the like (correct me if I am wrong on this). I am not saying he should be let back in, but we know why Life did what he did, even if he might not have fully grasped the consequences of his actions in their totality. He needed money. He gave up his life to play the game, and the game was not paying his bills. That is the true issue here. Yes there are other matchfixers of note who did make "enough" money and match-fixed for monetary gain. I acknowledge that; however - and this is a big however - if you want to fix the problem, then there needs to be a sustainable method for paying these players living wages. Top players should absolutely know that the consequences of their actions by matchfixing will not lead to a net gain for them in the end. That only happens when we figure out how to create that scene. We can't expect people to dedicate their lives to a game for us if they are going to be dramatically underpaid for the time they put in, and even more so we can't expect them not to cut corners to make a buck if they are in that position. Again not saying he should be let back in.
I'm really glad that we as a community can have a conversation about Life now, one year on, without those emotions that bordered on hysteria that (very understandably) coloured such discussions when the news first broke.
I feel sorry for Life. There are some mistakes in life that you simply cannot make - because you can never recover from them. Unfortunately, when you're young, you might not have enough life experience to be able to judge the relative "wrongness" of various transgressions. When I was a kid, I understood that stealing was wrong, that lying was wrong, that slapping the neighbour's kid was wrong - but I couldn't really discern the degree of "wrongness" for each of those actions. It's because I wasn't able to project how far-reaching the consequences of each could be. I didn't have that perspective.
I try to remember all that, and I remember the stupid mistakes I made when I was younger, and I'm thankful that none of them were irreversibly life-changing - BUT I'm well aware that those mistakes could have been devastating. I was simply lucky. I've had friends who ruined their lives because they were stupid and naive and in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong friends in a "perfect storm" situation. I could easily have been one of them.
So I have sympathy for Life - but that's not the same as condoning his actions. He was a professional player and he knew full well that what he was doing was a crime. He might have been under a lot of pressure, he might have had a moment of weakness, it might have been a case of "it's just one freaking map, don't think so much about it", but at the end of the day he must have known that what he was doing was wrong. I don't think that he ever sat down and coolly analysed the consequences of what would happen if he ever got caught, and weighed the pros and cons, and then made a calculated decision to match-fix (I'm speculating of course, but anyone doing a cost-benefit analysis for Life would come to the conclusion that in no universe would the risk be worth his potential future earnings).
So while I hope that the community will eventually forgive him, I do not agree that he should be allowed to compete again. That's because actions MUST have consequences, and you risk compromising some very sacred principles if you dilute those consequences. This is not just about Life, it's also about the rest of the esports world - his case must be held up as an example for deterrence. I do think it's very harsh, and I feel deep regret because I'm a huge SC2 fan and I personally want to see Life play again. But it's simply not right to allow him to compete again on equal footing as a professional with other professionals when he has undermined the very foundations of what it means to be a professional, and all the responsibility that being a representative of a sport entails.
Still, though, I'd like to end by saying - let's be kind. Kindness is very underrated in today's world, especially on the internet, where words can be shockingly harsh and it's easy to be critical and judgemental when you're sitting in front of a keyboard. I try to imagine what it'd be like if I met Life face-to-face; or what it would be like for Life himself, trying to eke out a new life, trying to avoid questions such as "so what was your previous job? what did you do before this?" My far-fetched dream is that one day the community would be able to forgive him to the extent as to welcome him back as a casual player and watch him play a showmatch (WITH NO MONEY INVOLVED) - and genuinely cheer for him. Because, at the end of the day, it's about the game.
This just feels like a troll post. Every competitive sport has to exile match-fixers, because of the serious and lasting damage they do to the integrity of the game. Playing favorites with winners/losers when it comes to the legal system is unjust and short-sighted.
Organization and fairness of competition are absolutely essential to ensure both participation and viewership. Whatever his sentence through the judicial system, the eSports community must impose its own banishment on the player to prevent the game from falling into complete disrepute.
None of this is worth it for a few more hypothetically, marginally-better games.
On January 31 2017 18:10 seopthi wrote: Is the consensus that match fixing is worse than cheating? (i.e aim-botting or doping)
If not, what makes SC different from other games/sports?
It's much worse for the scene. Sponsors pull out.
But the bizarre case of Life was there were a TON of rumors swelling around him about a gambling addiction. A former ZENEX coach was quoted as saying he watched Life lose 20k USD in one night. I remember a story about MC saying the same, as well. So it might not be an open/shut case on if it was straight matchfixing, which is where I think the majority of his defenders cite, myself included.
I really don't understand how this discussion went so far in replies...
Life was MATCHFIXING. Period. I really don't think there's any worse a pro player can do. I loved Life since the beginning of his career, always cheering for him. Now, when i think that i was cheering for him and felt sorry for him to lose, and the truth was that he sold that match...I feel sick. There is no excuse for that.
Life was selling his matches, because he had gambling debts. It wasn't anyone's fault, but his. He did it for money, nothing else. Stop defending him, even when it hurts. The story of Life is closed, just as SaviOr's.
Reading through this thread reminds me of discussing matchfixing with my friends. I think my friends are reasonably reasonable about most things; they're well-educated for the most part graduating from good universities with good grades - and yet when it comes to discussing matchfixing, their opinions, thoughts and perspective are so uniformed and dumb.
So he was banned from kespa and kespa is now dissolved. But it's also about trust and money. While I agree he should be allowed to play again any tournament organizer who allows him to play takes a risk which could impact sponsorship. You also risk a huge bandwagon of nerd rage. On the other hand it would probably create a lot of attention and will likely generate a lot of viewers.
If he's also banned by Blizzard (I don't know if this is the case) then no organizer who have deals with Blizzard can allow him to play.
On a tangent: Regarding similar cases there's match fixing and there's "not doing your best", for the viewer both are equally bad but match fixing is worse for the tournament organizer because you have influence on a tournament from an outside actor making profits that you don't get a cut of while at the same time causing negative press.
On January 31 2017 13:12 Vansetsu wrote: Everyone deserves forgiveness. Everyone.
That guy who got warned however many pages back is completely right- The TL community is indeed full of arrogant people. Chock full of teenage bandwagoning, clickyness, and hive mind thinking. With the older and more experienced among them not doing the younger ones any favors.
Every time I see Life or Savior brought up, people talk as if one them were the dark stranger who murdered their family and of course, ever-so-wounded, "they will NEVER" forgive them. What makes you all so entitled to think you should have any opinion at all as to what they should or should not do with their lives now? Entitled to how much (or really any) hate that should be given to them?
The only thing you are entitled to is to feel hurt, if you were actually a fan. Disappointed. Let down. But to think your disappointment ever grants you a free pass to hate someone, or that your speculation or your baseless analogies grant you some sort of special understanding, is the very definition of arrogance. And dare I say ignorance.
I honestly don't think about Life all that much. I browsed the thread out of curiosity as to what popular opinion currently was, and I am leaving disgusted. I hope that a good portion of you revisit your replies and your feelings here. Because if so many of you can so easily condemn these 2 (whom most of you have have only met through your internet browsers) like some fallen angels to prison and hell, as if you understood their circumstances and as if you were their arbiters, or as if anyone in this life deserves condemnation, then, I am saddened to think how you will treat others in the politics of your small lives.
Seriously fellas you're better than this. All of you.
I think this piece is a total horseshit. This should be removed from existance and thrown into dark abyss. That doesn't mean i hate you, but then again who am i to have opinions about others, shame on me.
Life is not a fallen angel or anything. Life is a cheating pro player, and what he got is entirely on point: never practicr this sport at any stage ever.
He can go shoot porn if he likes idc but if he plays one competitive game again then why do you care about watching starcraft at all since you know the might be fixed?
On January 31 2017 19:09 SKNielsen1989 wrote: How are you so narrow-minded?
Reading through this thread reminds me of discussing matchfixing with my friends. I think my friends are reasonably reasonable about most things; they're well-educated for the most part graduating from good universities with good grades - and yet when it comes to discussing matchfixing, their opinions, thoughts and perspective are so uniformed and dumb.
Good grief
Good grief that they disagree what you think is correct, so uninformed and dumb by them.../s
Life knew the rules (or should) and is paying the price accordingly. Match-fixing has no place in a competitive environment at all and perpetrators are rightfully punished heavily by organizers if caught (as they should). If the viewers can't trust that what they are seeing is an honest competition then they lose interest fast that ,down the line, loses organizers revenue, exposure and ultimately sponsors.
On January 31 2017 14:50 SKNielsen1989 wrote: Had Life thrown an important game on purpose for filthy lucre, I would have been sad and disappointed because of the potential awesomeness that could have been. Would I fault Life for such a choice? No. As a competitor, Life owed, owes and will continue to owe absolutely nothing to anyone. He can feel like fooling around. He can plant manner-Hatcheries wherever he pleases. He can explode all his Banelings to taunt his opponent. He can Probe-rush. He can quit whenever he feels like it even if he is way ahead. He can be playing poorly because he slept poorly because he doesn't respect his opponent because he simply doesn't care etc etc.
However, I do think that matchfixing is something to be discouraged. Contrary to what seems to be popular belief around here, I think banning competitors who are found guilty of matchfixing from competition is not the best approach to discourage matchfixing. In an ideal world, competitors would refrain from matchfixing because they care only about greatness and glory; not money. In actuality, what would discourage matchfixing is "fans" not engaging in betting.
Placing the burden on fans not to bet on games is not going to solve the issue. The fans aren't throwing matches, the players were. The players are responsible for this, not the fans. Harsh punishment and permanent exile is the only way to make pro-gamers to think twice about this sort of conduct. It's a shame when a player is willing to sacrifice his integrity due to greed.
You don't think fans love StarCraft enough to give up betting?
No, I think gambling is literally too addicting for many people to be able to get away with it. Look at lotteries and casinos, there is no shortage of people who are willing to give up everything to be able to have a chance at making some money, because gambling feels so good to them.
I do forgive him and think his life outside of SC2 shouldn't be ruined, but he should be perma banned from anything related to SC2. If people can do something as serious as that, and be let back in if they get caught, more people would be inclined to take the risk cheating like that.
Please try to remember people that Life screwed over every one of his fellow players when he match-fixed, because he took huge chunks of money out of the sport when sponsors had to bail/organizations pulled out. I'm not saying this to demonize him further, but to explain just how damaging what he did was.
Match fixing destroys the sport, but more importantly it destroys the careers and finances of other competitors. The damage match fixers cause hurts real people - lots of them. Many of them lose their careers over match fixing despite never having done anything wrong.
"But Life was my favorite player so the system should bend to give him another chance!" - the system was already bent, by him, to the detriment of all the other players. Sorry. You don't get to bend it back, real lives have already been fucked over, and nothing about Life's sick micro is worth further ruining other, blameless, real lives.
On February 01 2017 01:25 tedster wrote: Please try to remember people that Life screwed over every one of his fellow players when he match-fixed, because he took huge chunks of money out of the sport when sponsors had to bail/organizations pulled out. I'm not saying this to demonize him further, but to explain just how damaging what he did was.
Match fixing destroys the sport, but more importantly it destroys the careers and finances of other competitors. The damage match fixers cause hurts real people - lots of them. Many of them lose their careers over match fixing despite never having done anything wrong.
"But Life was my favorite player so the system should bend to give him another chance!" - the system was already bent, by him, to the detriment of all the other players. Sorry. You don't get to bend it back, real lives have already been fucked over, and nothing about Life's sick micro is worth further ruining other, blameless, real lives.
But he made Flash look average and was the only player who could compete with MVP in his prime.
On February 01 2017 01:25 tedster wrote: Please try to remember people that Life screwed over every one of his fellow players when he match-fixed, because he took huge chunks of money out of the sport when sponsors had to bail/organizations pulled out. I'm not saying this to demonize him further, but to explain just how damaging what he did was.
Match fixing destroys the sport, but more importantly it destroys the careers and finances of other competitors. The damage match fixers cause hurts real people - lots of them. Many of them lose their careers over match fixing despite never having done anything wrong.
"But Life was my favorite player so the system should bend to give him another chance!" - the system was already bent, by him, to the detriment of all the other players. Sorry. You don't get to bend it back, real lives have already been fucked over, and nothing about Life's sick micro is worth further ruining other, blameless, real lives.
But he made Flash look average and was the only player who could compete with MVP in his prime.
Billowy made Flash look average too. Wasn't hard to do.
On February 01 2017 01:25 tedster wrote: Please try to remember people that Life screwed over every one of his fellow players when he match-fixed, because he took huge chunks of money out of the sport when sponsors had to bail/organizations pulled out. I'm not saying this to demonize him further, but to explain just how damaging what he did was.
Match fixing destroys the sport, but more importantly it destroys the careers and finances of other competitors. The damage match fixers cause hurts real people - lots of them. Many of them lose their careers over match fixing despite never having done anything wrong.
"But Life was my favorite player so the system should bend to give him another chance!" - the system was already bent, by him, to the detriment of all the other players. Sorry. You don't get to bend it back, real lives have already been fucked over, and nothing about Life's sick micro is worth further ruining other, blameless, real lives.
But he made Flash look average and was the only player who could compete with MVP in his prime.
Billowy made Flash look average too. Wasn't hard to do.
Mind boggling how many average(i.e awful) players make such gods at broodwar look awful in sc2
On February 01 2017 01:25 tedster wrote: Please try to remember people that Life screwed over every one of his fellow players when he match-fixed, because he took huge chunks of money out of the sport when sponsors had to bail/organizations pulled out. I'm not saying this to demonize him further, but to explain just how damaging what he did was.
Match fixing destroys the sport, but more importantly it destroys the careers and finances of other competitors. The damage match fixers cause hurts real people - lots of them. Many of them lose their careers over match fixing despite never having done anything wrong.
"But Life was my favorite player so the system should bend to give him another chance!" - the system was already bent, by him, to the detriment of all the other players. Sorry. You don't get to bend it back, real lives have already been fucked over, and nothing about Life's sick micro is worth further ruining other, blameless, real lives.
But he made Flash look average and was the only player who could compete with MVP in his prime.
Billowy made Flash look average too. Wasn't hard to do.
Mind boggling how many average(i.e awful) players make such gods at broodwar look awful in sc2
On February 01 2017 01:25 tedster wrote: Please try to remember people that Life screwed over every one of his fellow players when he match-fixed, because he took huge chunks of money out of the sport when sponsors had to bail/organizations pulled out. I'm not saying this to demonize him further, but to explain just how damaging what he did was.
Match fixing destroys the sport, but more importantly it destroys the careers and finances of other competitors. The damage match fixers cause hurts real people - lots of them. Many of them lose their careers over match fixing despite never having done anything wrong.
"But Life was my favorite player so the system should bend to give him another chance!" - the system was already bent, by him, to the detriment of all the other players. Sorry. You don't get to bend it back, real lives have already been fucked over, and nothing about Life's sick micro is worth further ruining other, blameless, real lives.
But he made Flash look average and was the only player who could compete with MVP in his prime.
Billowy made Flash look average too. Wasn't hard to do.
Mind boggling how many average(i.e awful) players make such gods at broodwar look awful in sc2
It's an ambivalent issue for me. It's right what many here are saying: Life damaged the scene, he damaged other's lives. He is guilty and a punishment is important to prevent others from thinking lightly about matchfixing. But: people do change. It's possible at least. The biggest drama in this whole scenario is imagining a genius having done something really wrong and then regretting it, changing his mind, being a far better person and willing to give very much to show his honest sorrow and to do some reparation. I know - we heard nothing like this from Life but how could we? The scene maked clear, that there is no possible way for him to do anything like that. I agree - there can't be an easy way for Life but that our scene offers no path at all to regain your credibility isn't something to be proud of. It's a hole in our system and nobody gets anything good from it.
On January 31 2017 23:07 Tommy131313 wrote: It's all about trustworthiness. You trust an athlete, unless you have clear evidence, he/she is cheating, doping, matchfixing etc.
Life lost his trustworthiness, therefore he can't compete in serious events, because "...you never know..."
Byun could be a murderer. Innovation could be taking cocaine every time he plays. You really cannot trust any of them at all whatsoever so none of them should be playing the game at all, especially in tournaments. Because "...you never know..."
[puts a pause on his satire, clears throat]
Nobody can say exactly why he did what he did, so you cannot have any reason whether to still trust him or not to because you don't know what his motives were. If news came to light that he was trying to make money to save a child dying from cancer or that a mob threatened his family forcing him to throw a match, then his trustworthiness only grows. And even if we saw conclusive evidence that he had the most selfish motives imaginable, there's still the chance he would change himself and other players for the better if he were to play again, or that he tried to do so sometime between now and the event.
People are far too quick to point fingers and shame someone without having enough evidence to justify it, this entire thread is a good example. You never know. So why be incessantly hopeless or ruthlessly cynical.
On January 30 2017 21:17 schaf wrote: Would you give a diner a second chance after eating rotten meat? Would you go to the same pharmacist again that sold you sugar pills instead of painkillers? No. Because the next time you give them a chance, there is utter distrust.
You ignore the other 100 meals I ate at that diner. Yes, actually, I would go back that diner, and I indeed have many more times since then and every meal was a damn good one. If this were the first meal or the second, or even the third, you might have a point. If you have one bad game in StarCraft do you stop playing forever? I don't, but maybe that's just me.
On February 01 2017 01:25 tedster wrote: Please try to remember people that Life screwed over every one of his fellow players when he match-fixed, because he took huge chunks of money out of the sport when sponsors had to bail/organizations pulled out. I'm not saying this to demonize him further, but to explain just how damaging what he did was.
Match fixing destroys the sport, but more importantly it destroys the careers and finances of other competitors. The damage match fixers cause hurts real people - lots of them. Many of them lose their careers over match fixing despite never having done anything wrong.
"But Life was my favorite player so the system should bend to give him another chance!" - the system was already bent, by him, to the detriment of all the other players. Sorry. You don't get to bend it back, real lives have already been fucked over, and nothing about Life's sick micro is worth further ruining other, blameless, real lives.
But he made Flash look average and was the only player who could compete with MVP in his prime.
Billowy made Flash look average too. Wasn't hard to do.
Mind boggling how many average(i.e awful) players make such gods at broodwar look awful in sc2
Author of this topic thinks that Life is like Wernher von Braun. He built V2 rockets for nazis, but USA forgave him and took him to America where his further research helped them to reach space and the moon. Well...Life is not rocket builder so rather than crying after him, lets hope that another Zerg bonjwa will come. We got Dark, soO, Byul and Nerchio after all.
On February 02 2017 15:21 hiroshOne wrote: Author of this topic thinks that Life is like Wernher von Braun. He built V2 rockets for nazis, but USA forgave him and took him to America where his further research helped them to reach space and the moon. Well...Life is not rocket builder so rather than crying after him, lets hope that another Zerg bonjwa will come. We got Dark, soO, Byul and Nerchio after all.
I think you're confusing forgiveness with the absence of prosecution. Whether or not individual American citizens or individual representatives of the government of the United States of America forgave him for that which they held him responsible is another matter.
On February 02 2017 02:33 FFW_Rude wrote: I loved SaviOr. Do i want him back. Hell no. I loved Life. Do i want hime back. HELL FUCKING NO !
if there's a sc3, the zerg banjo of that game should be monitored 24/7
RescUer
On February 01 2017 16:11 Cuce wrote: I see many of your points on starcraft related issue on the subject and I get it but its still a felony..
I don't really care if TLO shot a bird when he was 10. I also don't understand why the fact that Life had a gambling addiction effects this situation whatsoever?
I'm torn when it comes to discussing this, but my intuition is that I would have no problem watching a Life game if it was on today. He was the single most succesful player and is our current GOAT. Surely he's damaged the scene, but not going beyond speculation it's hard to see if he has really damaged it more than he has been contributing to it. He was in the center of the SC2 community and now all that's left is a gaping hole. I think in the very least he deserves to have his point of view of the story be heard.
The biggest crime of all though, is that the current trend has been to white wash all memories of Life and not mention him at all in broadcasts, even Blizzcon. As if we would riot against the tournaments if his name was mentioned. I cringe when I hear Tastosis trying to come up with a past time Zerg as skilled as Dark and you can clearly see they have his name on the tongue, but mustn't say it. I don't blame them though, it's how the entire situation is being handled that is poor.
Life should be banned from all competitive gaming for life. Agreed.
Should he be allowed to stream himself laddering? I don't see why not.. I won't be watching .. ever.. but it's different to competing in tournaments and i'm sure he still has a 'fan' base.
Would he even want to play SC2 again though is the bigger question.. He probably hates the game so much and is moving on in life.
On January 30 2017 06:59 Solar424 wrote: As much as I loved life, matchfixing should have a zero-tolerance policy. The damage he and the others did to the Korean scene is incalculable and they should be banned from anything related to eSports for life.
To say that what he did "incalculable-damage" makes it sounds like he did massive damage to the scene. I disagree. Maybe he hurt the gambling scene, which really has nothing to do with our scene.
This scene has been dying for a long time, truth to power. SOOOOO many bad decisions have been made by blizzard about balance and a system for WCS... and intervening at all in the Korean scene which was THRIVING as far as I could tell, before blizzard got their hands into it.
This scene has been living on a non-sustainable business model for a long time, and the bubble burst. Plus it's an insanely complex game, most people don't have the time to learn it, which is why a simple (by rule and complex by strategy) game like csgo is thriving. People watch games like football and basket ball, you throw a ball through a hoop or walk a ball over a line. How to you expect the population to grasp a game this complex?
Also, Heroes of the storm has been growing pretty steadily with the new HGC format. I think blizzard is understanding what works better and better. That format is infinitely better for the players and viewers, more games for us and promised money to the players. We were just the guinea pigs in sc2 for esports.
In a better system, hopefully players don't feel tempted to cheat a corrupt system of gambling to make extra money.
Ps. gambling is corrupt, period. In the sense that, sure you can do it, but you are just fucking yourself out of your own money because it's all rigged against you. So its never something that can operate in a "clean" way, it will always be taking advantage of you. If someone comes in and takes advantage of the bookie I don't really feel bad. In gambling someone is always taking advantage of someone else.
Psps. I vote let Life back in. Keep the ban for another year or two, then make a probation period, if there is still a scene by then let him back.
"To forgive is divine," it's been said countless times by infinite great thinkers, also punitive measure have been executed countless times by tyrants yielding nothing.
I don't know if we should forgive him and give him a second chance, or even if we want to. Maybe we should. However, how do you prevent him from fixing another match if we do? There isn't even Kespa any more for the scene. And without Kespa, Korean government will hardly make an effort for investigations even if there are some mysterious mistakes. Personally, I cannot even trust all of the current players 100 percent due to the rumors, and can I trust a proven match fixer not to do it once again? Yes, a year has passed, but what has changed? Do we even know if life felt sorry for what he did? Did he even apologize? Forgiveness, if he deserves, should follow after his self reflection and apologies. What do we know about Life really?
Great and very relevant post! Gj wp! Lets talk abourt Life....
Since SC2 came in 2010 i have played a lot of SC2 (Master multiple times). Been attending Dreamhacks and multiple other LANs I love it!! I watch SC2 (streams, turnaments ect.) every day
In my opinion Life is the greatest to ever play the game (More innovative than MVP).
Remember his ling-micro? Remember he did things no other zerg could do?
Come on guys! Lets forgive a fellow SC2-player. He was a teenager. Just a kid. What he did was stupid but should not exclude from the game he made look so beautiful
In every legal system the punishment should reflect the crime. I think Life has "done his time". Lets move on! Peace!
On February 03 2017 05:59 Trozz wrote: I've heard some dark shit, More than just fixing matches. He sounds abusive.
Stuff like this is said about many famous or even semi famous people. Hell, even TLO is called to be an arrogant hypocrite by some people. I wouldn't give a sh* on rumours like this, if there is no concrete evidence.
On February 03 2017 05:25 Madhouze wrote: Great and very relevant post! Gj wp! Lets talk abourt Life....
Since SC2 came in 2010 i have played a lot of SC2 (Master multiple times). Been attending Dreamhacks and multiple other LANs I love it!! I watch SC2 (streams, turnaments ect.) every day
In my opinion Life is the greatest to ever play the game (More innovative than MVP).
Remember his ling-micro? Remember he did things no other zerg could do?
Come on guys! Lets forgive a fellow SC2-player. He was a teenager. Just a kid. What he did was stupid but should not exclude from the game he made look so beautiful
In every legal system the punishment should reflect the crime. I think Life has "done his time". Lets move on! Peace!
YEAH ! Let's forgive him since what he did was stupid and he couldn't have known what matchfixing would lead to ! And he was the greatest Zerg player ! It's the first time that happened he couldn't have known ! And what he did did nothing to profesional Starcraft e-sport !
Oh wait...
- What he did was illegal - What he did destroyed a part of the scene - What he did was already done by another greatest player that was caught and condamned too.
He KNEW what he was doing.
Or just forgive him. And let's forgive Savior too. OH ! let's even forgive CombatEx and bring him back here ! Why not !
Savior is still one of the greatest players of all time. CombatEX was never banned from competitive play and is still allowed to compete if he wanted to.
On January 30 2017 06:59 Solar424 wrote: As much as I loved life, matchfixing should have a zero-tolerance policy. The damage he and the others did to the Korean scene is incalculable and they should be banned from anything related to eSports for life.
To say that what he did "incalculable-damage" makes it sounds like he did massive damage to the scene. I disagree. Maybe he hurt the gambling scene, which really has nothing to do with our scene.
This scene has been dying for a long time, truth to power. SOOOOO many bad decisions have been made by blizzard about balance and a system for WCS... and intervening at all in the Korean scene which was THRIVING as far as I could tell, before blizzard got their hands into it.
This scene has been living on a non-sustainable business model for a long time, and the bubble burst. Plus it's an insanely complex game, most people don't have the time to learn it, which is why a simple (by rule and complex by strategy) game like csgo is thriving. People watch games like football and basket ball, you throw a ball through a hoop or walk a ball over a line. How to you expect the population to grasp a game this complex?
Also, Heroes of the storm has been growing pretty steadily with the new HGC format. I think blizzard is understanding what works better and better. That format is infinitely better for the players and viewers, more games for us and promised money to the players. We were just the guinea pigs in sc2 for esports.
In a better system, hopefully players don't feel tempted to cheat a corrupt system of gambling to make extra money.
Ps. gambling is corrupt, period. In the sense that, sure you can do it, but you are just fucking yourself out of your own money because it's all rigged against you. So its never something that can operate in a "clean" way, it will always be taking advantage of you. If someone comes in and takes advantage of the bookie I don't really feel bad. In gambling someone is always taking advantage of someone else.
Psps. I vote let Life back in. Keep the ban for another year or two, then make a probation period, if there is still a scene by then let him back.
"To forgive is divine," it's been said countless times by infinite great thinkers, also punitive measure have been executed countless times by tyrants yielding nothing.
Sponsors don't want to invest in a scene where matchfixing is a problem. It had a lot to do with the downfall of Kespa BW and it probably had something to deal with the Kespa teams dropping SC2.
On January 30 2017 06:59 Solar424 wrote: As much as I loved life, matchfixing should have a zero-tolerance policy. The damage he and the others did to the Korean scene is incalculable and they should be banned from anything related to eSports for life.
To say that what he did "incalculable-damage" makes it sounds like he did massive damage to the scene. I disagree. Maybe he hurt the gambling scene, which really has nothing to do with our scene.
This scene has been dying for a long time, truth to power. SOOOOO many bad decisions have been made by blizzard about balance and a system for WCS... and intervening at all in the Korean scene which was THRIVING as far as I could tell, before blizzard got their hands into it.
This scene has been living on a non-sustainable business model for a long time, and the bubble burst. Plus it's an insanely complex game, most people don't have the time to learn it, which is why a simple (by rule and complex by strategy) game like csgo is thriving. People watch games like football and basket ball, you throw a ball through a hoop or walk a ball over a line. How to you expect the population to grasp a game this complex?
Also, Heroes of the storm has been growing pretty steadily with the new HGC format. I think blizzard is understanding what works better and better. That format is infinitely better for the players and viewers, more games for us and promised money to the players. We were just the guinea pigs in sc2 for esports.
In a better system, hopefully players don't feel tempted to cheat a corrupt system of gambling to make extra money.
Ps. gambling is corrupt, period. In the sense that, sure you can do it, but you are just fucking yourself out of your own money because it's all rigged against you. So its never something that can operate in a "clean" way, it will always be taking advantage of you. If someone comes in and takes advantage of the bookie I don't really feel bad. In gambling someone is always taking advantage of someone else.
Psps. I vote let Life back in. Keep the ban for another year or two, then make a probation period, if there is still a scene by then let him back.
"To forgive is divine," it's been said countless times by infinite great thinkers, also punitive measure have been executed countless times by tyrants yielding nothing.
Sponsors don't want to invest in a scene where matchfixing is a problem. It had a lot to do with the downfall of Kespa BW and it probably had something to deal with the Kespa teams dropping SC2.
There is a lot I don't know about the Korean scene, I can't speak to that.
In this scene sponsors and teams already don't pay their players money owed to them for winning tournaments. The scene is so bad that many of the highest level players just get screwed over by companies that sponsor them. Sponsors can be more worried about having the money to cover the talent that book or not running away with someones prize money.
Who are you going to blame more, sponsors/teams who take their players money or the player who cheats because they are worried about their money?
Also,
There are cheaters that get caught cheating in every sport, and those sports still continue to thrive.
If life had never been caught cheating, sc2 still would be dead. There is no counter argument to that, it was dying before he cheated.
I'm sure what he did, didn't help anything, but it certainly didn't cause anything.
Byun could be a murderer. Innovation could be taking cocaine every time he plays. You really cannot trust any of them at all whatsoever so none of them should be playing the game at all, especially in tournaments. Because "...you never know..."
*Tries to imagine a machine getting high*
"Inhalable substance. Calls method 'happiness' in class 'emotions_positive.' Superclass 'emotion' deprecated in v7.4.3. No discernible utility."
Ah, the classic "we should let this slide because he might be autistic" defense. I think that's what got OJ off as well.
I don't think he should have necessarily went to jail.. but definitely banned from the scene. It doesn't matter how good you are, if you do something that dishonest that could ruin a business, you should not be allowed back in.. at 19, you're probably still stupid (I know I was), but you're also considered an adult, and you have to learn the hard way about responsibility and character sometimes.
This of course is regarding all match fixers, not only Life. The argument is not that they should simply be allowed to play, but if they are truly sorry that it has happened (not that it has been found out it has happened) they should have some sort of way to redeeming themselves and possibly returning.
I do not know much about Savior and it is my impression that he truly was a bad guy not feeling sorry about it -- but still apparently it was handled similarly, as trying to hide it under a rug -- and possibly it did not help preventing future matchfixers.
Perhaps if Savior was of a different nature and had the stage to apologize, redeem himself and go back (instead of going to China), he might've been an ambassador against these kind of things, explaining its dangers and keeping it in a debate. I really don't think that some sort of education and increasing public awareness would increase amount of the problems, but rather the opposite--the same doping (and anti-doping ambassadors) is handled in sports.
Reading the discussion you could easily imply Life cheated to win. When all he did (AFAIK!) was to drop sets, without even altering the overall outcome of the match.
Not saying this makes it OK, but to put this into perspective: It's like Lance Armstrong slowing down on purpose to finish the race a couple seconds later than he otherwise would have, rather than use doping to win. Or a boxer who throws one round in twelve while still winning, rather than throwing the whole fight.
From yet another perspective: The only people who got hurt by the altered outcome were people betting money on a video game.
Yes, that's illegal. But the legal system is not just black and white.
On February 05 2017 03:18 imp42 wrote: From yet another perspective: The only people who got hurt by the altered outcome were people betting money on a video game.
Yes, that's illegal. But the legal system is not just black and white.
And all the viewers watching that feel betrayed because it was not a real game. Who then will start doubting ANY starcraft game with strange endings. And the sponsors. Who see viewership interest declining due to the doubtful sportsmanship in games. And the esport SC2 as a whole because it's legitimacy goes down.
On January 30 2017 06:59 Solar424 wrote: As much as I loved life, matchfixing should have a zero-tolerance policy. The damage he and the others did to the Korean scene is incalculable and they should be banned from anything related to eSports for life.
To say that what he did "incalculable-damage" makes it sounds like he did massive damage to the scene. I disagree. Maybe he hurt the gambling scene, which really has nothing to do with our scene.
This scene has been dying for a long time, truth to power. SOOOOO many bad decisions have been made by blizzard about balance and a system for WCS... and intervening at all in the Korean scene which was THRIVING as far as I could tell, before blizzard got their hands into it.
This scene has been living on a non-sustainable business model for a long time, and the bubble burst. Plus it's an insanely complex game, most people don't have the time to learn it, which is why a simple (by rule and complex by strategy) game like csgo is thriving. People watch games like football and basket ball, you throw a ball through a hoop or walk a ball over a line. How to you expect the population to grasp a game this complex?
Also, Heroes of the storm has been growing pretty steadily with the new HGC format. I think blizzard is understanding what works better and better. That format is infinitely better for the players and viewers, more games for us and promised money to the players. We were just the guinea pigs in sc2 for esports.
In a better system, hopefully players don't feel tempted to cheat a corrupt system of gambling to make extra money.
Ps. gambling is corrupt, period. In the sense that, sure you can do it, but you are just fucking yourself out of your own money because it's all rigged against you. So its never something that can operate in a "clean" way, it will always be taking advantage of you. If someone comes in and takes advantage of the bookie I don't really feel bad. In gambling someone is always taking advantage of someone else.
Psps. I vote let Life back in. Keep the ban for another year or two, then make a probation period, if there is still a scene by then let him back.
"To forgive is divine," it's been said countless times by infinite great thinkers, also punitive measure have been executed countless times by tyrants yielding nothing.
Sponsors don't want to invest in a scene where matchfixing is a problem. It had a lot to do with the downfall of Kespa BW and it probably had something to deal with the Kespa teams dropping SC2.
Clearly, match-fixing hasn't destroyed Counter-Strike. That said, it doesn't mean it's immune to it. It's just a counter-argument to what you said. SC2 was still in decline regardless of Life's match-fixing.
On February 05 2017 03:18 imp42 wrote: From yet another perspective: The only people who got hurt by the altered outcome were people betting money on a video game.
Yes, that's illegal. But the legal system is not just black and white.
And all the viewers watching that feel betrayed because it was not a real game. Who then will start doubting ANY starcraft game with strange endings. And the sponsors. Who see viewership interest declining due to the doubtful sportsmanship in games. And the esport SC2 as a whole because it's legitimacy goes down.
Sure, those consequences of his actions may all be valid. However, ethics does not always judge result-based. There is also an intention-based judgement (depending on school). From the intention-based view we can be fairly certain he did not throw the sets with the intention of driving sponsors out of the game.
Again, I'm trying to avoid judgement and instead provide some perspective.
On January 30 2017 06:59 Solar424 wrote: As much as I loved life, matchfixing should have a zero-tolerance policy. The damage he and the others did to the Korean scene is incalculable and they should be banned from anything related to eSports for life.
To say that what he did "incalculable-damage" makes it sounds like he did massive damage to the scene. I disagree. Maybe he hurt the gambling scene, which really has nothing to do with our scene.
This scene has been dying for a long time, truth to power. SOOOOO many bad decisions have been made by blizzard about balance and a system for WCS... and intervening at all in the Korean scene which was THRIVING as far as I could tell, before blizzard got their hands into it.
This scene has been living on a non-sustainable business model for a long time, and the bubble burst. Plus it's an insanely complex game, most people don't have the time to learn it, which is why a simple (by rule and complex by strategy) game like csgo is thriving. People watch games like football and basket ball, you throw a ball through a hoop or walk a ball over a line. How to you expect the population to grasp a game this complex?
Also, Heroes of the storm has been growing pretty steadily with the new HGC format. I think blizzard is understanding what works better and better. That format is infinitely better for the players and viewers, more games for us and promised money to the players. We were just the guinea pigs in sc2 for esports.
In a better system, hopefully players don't feel tempted to cheat a corrupt system of gambling to make extra money.
Ps. gambling is corrupt, period. In the sense that, sure you can do it, but you are just fucking yourself out of your own money because it's all rigged against you. So its never something that can operate in a "clean" way, it will always be taking advantage of you. If someone comes in and takes advantage of the bookie I don't really feel bad. In gambling someone is always taking advantage of someone else.
Psps. I vote let Life back in. Keep the ban for another year or two, then make a probation period, if there is still a scene by then let him back.
"To forgive is divine," it's been said countless times by infinite great thinkers, also punitive measure have been executed countless times by tyrants yielding nothing.
Sponsors don't want to invest in a scene where matchfixing is a problem. It had a lot to do with the downfall of Kespa BW and it probably had something to deal with the Kespa teams dropping SC2.
Clearly, match-fixing hasn't destroyed Counter-Strike. That said, it doesn't mean it's immune to it. It's just a counter-argument to what you said. SC2 was still in decline regardless of Life's match-fixing.
CS:GO was already too big to fail by the time the matchfixing scandal happened, while Korean SC2 was hanging on by a thread. But I'm sure it's just a coincidence that all the Korean teams disbanded when their contracts ran out after the Life matchfixing was exposed. The CS:GO matchfixing was also just one instance, while in SC2 it was apparent that it was much more common, with some cases we'll probably never know about.
On January 30 2017 06:59 Solar424 wrote: As much as I loved life, matchfixing should have a zero-tolerance policy. The damage he and the others did to the Korean scene is incalculable and they should be banned from anything related to eSports for life.
To say that what he did "incalculable-damage" makes it sounds like he did massive damage to the scene. I disagree. Maybe he hurt the gambling scene, which really has nothing to do with our scene.
This scene has been dying for a long time, truth to power. SOOOOO many bad decisions have been made by blizzard about balance and a system for WCS... and intervening at all in the Korean scene which was THRIVING as far as I could tell, before blizzard got their hands into it.
This scene has been living on a non-sustainable business model for a long time, and the bubble burst. Plus it's an insanely complex game, most people don't have the time to learn it, which is why a simple (by rule and complex by strategy) game like csgo is thriving. People watch games like football and basket ball, you throw a ball through a hoop or walk a ball over a line. How to you expect the population to grasp a game this complex?
Also, Heroes of the storm has been growing pretty steadily with the new HGC format. I think blizzard is understanding what works better and better. That format is infinitely better for the players and viewers, more games for us and promised money to the players. We were just the guinea pigs in sc2 for esports.
In a better system, hopefully players don't feel tempted to cheat a corrupt system of gambling to make extra money.
Ps. gambling is corrupt, period. In the sense that, sure you can do it, but you are just fucking yourself out of your own money because it's all rigged against you. So its never something that can operate in a "clean" way, it will always be taking advantage of you. If someone comes in and takes advantage of the bookie I don't really feel bad. In gambling someone is always taking advantage of someone else.
Psps. I vote let Life back in. Keep the ban for another year or two, then make a probation period, if there is still a scene by then let him back.
"To forgive is divine," it's been said countless times by infinite great thinkers, also punitive measure have been executed countless times by tyrants yielding nothing.
Sponsors don't want to invest in a scene where matchfixing is a problem. It had a lot to do with the downfall of Kespa BW and it probably had something to deal with the Kespa teams dropping SC2.
Clearly, match-fixing hasn't destroyed Counter-Strike. That said, it doesn't mean it's immune to it. It's just a counter-argument to what you said. SC2 was still in decline regardless of Life's match-fixing.
CS:GO was already too big to fail by the time the matchfixing scandal happened, while Korean SC2 was hanging on by a thread. But I'm sure it's just a coincidence that all the Korean teams disbanded when their contracts ran out after the Life matchfixing was exposed. The CS:GO matchfixing was also just one instance, while in SC2 it was apparent that it was much more common, with some cases we'll probably never know about.
You've answered your own question then. You admit SC2 was already in decline. Life's match-fixing was just insult to injury. It's still Blizzard's fault that SC2 isn't doing better than now.
On January 30 2017 06:59 Solar424 wrote: As much as I loved life, matchfixing should have a zero-tolerance policy. The damage he and the others did to the Korean scene is incalculable and they should be banned from anything related to eSports for life.
To say that what he did "incalculable-damage" makes it sounds like he did massive damage to the scene. I disagree. Maybe he hurt the gambling scene, which really has nothing to do with our scene.
This scene has been dying for a long time, truth to power. SOOOOO many bad decisions have been made by blizzard about balance and a system for WCS... and intervening at all in the Korean scene which was THRIVING as far as I could tell, before blizzard got their hands into it.
This scene has been living on a non-sustainable business model for a long time, and the bubble burst. Plus it's an insanely complex game, most people don't have the time to learn it, which is why a simple (by rule and complex by strategy) game like csgo is thriving. People watch games like football and basket ball, you throw a ball through a hoop or walk a ball over a line. How to you expect the population to grasp a game this complex?
Also, Heroes of the storm has been growing pretty steadily with the new HGC format. I think blizzard is understanding what works better and better. That format is infinitely better for the players and viewers, more games for us and promised money to the players. We were just the guinea pigs in sc2 for esports.
In a better system, hopefully players don't feel tempted to cheat a corrupt system of gambling to make extra money.
Ps. gambling is corrupt, period. In the sense that, sure you can do it, but you are just fucking yourself out of your own money because it's all rigged against you. So its never something that can operate in a "clean" way, it will always be taking advantage of you. If someone comes in and takes advantage of the bookie I don't really feel bad. In gambling someone is always taking advantage of someone else.
Psps. I vote let Life back in. Keep the ban for another year or two, then make a probation period, if there is still a scene by then let him back.
"To forgive is divine," it's been said countless times by infinite great thinkers, also punitive measure have been executed countless times by tyrants yielding nothing.
Sponsors don't want to invest in a scene where matchfixing is a problem. It had a lot to do with the downfall of Kespa BW and it probably had something to deal with the Kespa teams dropping SC2.
Clearly, match-fixing hasn't destroyed Counter-Strike. That said, it doesn't mean it's immune to it. It's just a counter-argument to what you said. SC2 was still in decline regardless of Life's match-fixing.
CS:GO was already too big to fail by the time the matchfixing scandal happened, while Korean SC2 was hanging on by a thread. But I'm sure it's just a coincidence that all the Korean teams disbanded when their contracts ran out after the Life matchfixing was exposed.
But the SBENU scandal -that actually resulted in disbanding a team-also happened the last season. so it is hard to say what was a bigger hit.
On January 30 2017 06:59 Solar424 wrote: As much as I loved life, matchfixing should have a zero-tolerance policy. The damage he and the others did to the Korean scene is incalculable and they should be banned from anything related to eSports for life.
To say that what he did "incalculable-damage" makes it sounds like he did massive damage to the scene. I disagree. Maybe he hurt the gambling scene, which really has nothing to do with our scene.
This scene has been dying for a long time, truth to power. SOOOOO many bad decisions have been made by blizzard about balance and a system for WCS... and intervening at all in the Korean scene which was THRIVING as far as I could tell, before blizzard got their hands into it.
This scene has been living on a non-sustainable business model for a long time, and the bubble burst. Plus it's an insanely complex game, most people don't have the time to learn it, which is why a simple (by rule and complex by strategy) game like csgo is thriving. People watch games like football and basket ball, you throw a ball through a hoop or walk a ball over a line. How to you expect the population to grasp a game this complex?
Also, Heroes of the storm has been growing pretty steadily with the new HGC format. I think blizzard is understanding what works better and better. That format is infinitely better for the players and viewers, more games for us and promised money to the players. We were just the guinea pigs in sc2 for esports.
In a better system, hopefully players don't feel tempted to cheat a corrupt system of gambling to make extra money.
Ps. gambling is corrupt, period. In the sense that, sure you can do it, but you are just fucking yourself out of your own money because it's all rigged against you. So its never something that can operate in a "clean" way, it will always be taking advantage of you. If someone comes in and takes advantage of the bookie I don't really feel bad. In gambling someone is always taking advantage of someone else.
Psps. I vote let Life back in. Keep the ban for another year or two, then make a probation period, if there is still a scene by then let him back.
"To forgive is divine," it's been said countless times by infinite great thinkers, also punitive measure have been executed countless times by tyrants yielding nothing.
Sponsors don't want to invest in a scene where matchfixing is a problem. It had a lot to do with the downfall of Kespa BW and it probably had something to deal with the Kespa teams dropping SC2.
Clearly, match-fixing hasn't destroyed Counter-Strike. That said, it doesn't mean it's immune to it. It's just a counter-argument to what you said. SC2 was still in decline regardless of Life's match-fixing.
CS:GO was already too big to fail by the time the matchfixing scandal happened, while Korean SC2 was hanging on by a thread. But I'm sure it's just a coincidence that all the Korean teams disbanded when their contracts ran out after the Life matchfixing was exposed. The CS:GO matchfixing was also just one instance, while in SC2 it was apparent that it was much more common, with some cases we'll probably never know about.
You've answered your own question then. You admit SC2 was already in decline. Life's match-fixing was just insult to injury. It's still Blizzard's fault that SC2 isn't doing better than now.
It was in decline, but the teams were still committed to the scene. The matchfixing scandal probably hurt viewership in Korea more than in the West and made it no longer viable to finance the teams. Again, the massive conglomerates and telecom companies also probably didn't want to be involved in a scene where matchfixing was rampant.
On January 30 2017 06:59 Solar424 wrote: As much as I loved life, matchfixing should have a zero-tolerance policy. The damage he and the others did to the Korean scene is incalculable and they should be banned from anything related to eSports for life.
To say that what he did "incalculable-damage" makes it sounds like he did massive damage to the scene. I disagree. Maybe he hurt the gambling scene, which really has nothing to do with our scene.
This scene has been dying for a long time, truth to power. SOOOOO many bad decisions have been made by blizzard about balance and a system for WCS... and intervening at all in the Korean scene which was THRIVING as far as I could tell, before blizzard got their hands into it.
This scene has been living on a non-sustainable business model for a long time, and the bubble burst. Plus it's an insanely complex game, most people don't have the time to learn it, which is why a simple (by rule and complex by strategy) game like csgo is thriving. People watch games like football and basket ball, you throw a ball through a hoop or walk a ball over a line. How to you expect the population to grasp a game this complex?
Also, Heroes of the storm has been growing pretty steadily with the new HGC format. I think blizzard is understanding what works better and better. That format is infinitely better for the players and viewers, more games for us and promised money to the players. We were just the guinea pigs in sc2 for esports.
In a better system, hopefully players don't feel tempted to cheat a corrupt system of gambling to make extra money.
Ps. gambling is corrupt, period. In the sense that, sure you can do it, but you are just fucking yourself out of your own money because it's all rigged against you. So its never something that can operate in a "clean" way, it will always be taking advantage of you. If someone comes in and takes advantage of the bookie I don't really feel bad. In gambling someone is always taking advantage of someone else.
Psps. I vote let Life back in. Keep the ban for another year or two, then make a probation period, if there is still a scene by then let him back.
"To forgive is divine," it's been said countless times by infinite great thinkers, also punitive measure have been executed countless times by tyrants yielding nothing.
Sponsors don't want to invest in a scene where matchfixing is a problem. It had a lot to do with the downfall of Kespa BW and it probably had something to deal with the Kespa teams dropping SC2.
Clearly, match-fixing hasn't destroyed Counter-Strike. That said, it doesn't mean it's immune to it. It's just a counter-argument to what you said. SC2 was still in decline regardless of Life's match-fixing.
CS:GO was already too big to fail by the time the matchfixing scandal happened, while Korean SC2 was hanging on by a thread. But I'm sure it's just a coincidence that all the Korean teams disbanded when their contracts ran out after the Life matchfixing was exposed. The CS:GO matchfixing was also just one instance, while in SC2 it was apparent that it was much more common, with some cases we'll probably never know about.
You've answered your own question then. You admit SC2 was already in decline. Life's match-fixing was just insult to injury. It's still Blizzard's fault that SC2 isn't doing better than now.
It was in decline, but the teams were still committed to the scene. The matchfixing scandal probably hurt viewership in Korea more than in the West and made it no longer viable to finance the teams. Again, the massive conglomerates and telecom companies also probably didn't want to be involved in a scene where matchfixing was rampant.
Weird to see how many people don't consider what's best for everyone when deciding what the right thing to do is. Where do such strong feelings of revenge come from? He barely harmed anyone here. Most people wouldn't have ever known that they were robbed of seeing his best effort. And for that slight you want such extreme punishments on him. I don't get how anyone feels so personally affected that they willingly abandon reason and just want revenge on someone who did so many good things for you previously. Lots of players put up performances worse than their best for a lot less glamorous reasons. Like they're just lazy or they party too hard. Life did it for some money, possibly under some duress, and people want his head. Whatever the cause, the effect it had on your life is the same: in some SC2 games you watched, one of the players played worse than he could have.
As for using harsh punishments as deterrents, I don't see how it applies to the player. Life is just one player among many, all of whom are possible instruments for the match fixers. A harsh punishment on the player himself may cause some players to defy the match fixers (hopefully without being harmed for defying them), but it will not make it impossible for the match fixers to convince or coerce some other players to do it anyway. A harsh deterrent is more effective when threatening the mastermind of the crime, not his pawns. And whether using deterrents is optimal at all is its own discussion. I don't think it's so clear that deterrents are a good solution and it's funny to hear people advocating for them while also not attempting to hide their emotional desire for a harsh punishment. It's clear that the concept of deterrents is the go-to rationalization of people who just want to see the criminal punished. They aren't really concerned about what's best for the criminal, for society, or even for themselves.
When making a punishment to act as a deterrent, you are changing the risk vs reward consideration that the potential criminal is facing. Relatively light punishments are already tipping the scales in that equation enough that it's not worth the risk. People make irrational decisions. Certainly you might reach a punishment so harsh that it snaps a person back to their senses. I think in this case, a player is going to do it if they don't think they'll get caught. Or they'll do it if they're coerced. But the severity of the punishment isn't something that's carefully considered. The assumption that if you find the correct degree of harsh punishment then you can deter a bad behavior depends on the rationality of the agent. If they're not behaving rationally, it does nothing.
I think one thing that should be adjusted so that we can move forward from incidents like this in a more optimal and pragmatic way, so that gets everyone as happy and productive as possible as soon as possible, is to adjust the public mindset. People crave revenge and want to see evil-doers punished. But if this wasn't the reaction of a large portion of the population every time someone does something bad, then we wouldn't have to worry about making things worse by defying the desires of these people, and businesses and sponsors wouldn't have to worry about public opinion holding them back.
Bad behavior begins a chain reaction of more bad behavior. Some of that is influencing others to do similar things and some of that is provoking others to push back in the opposite direction. That push-back may feel righteous and comes with all kinds of reasoning, but the truth is that its roots are in the irrational part of the brain, making decisions without any consideration of what actions will create the best present and future. Things improve more slowly because a portion of the population stubbornly insists on "seeing justice done" and until they cool off or forget about it, the whole of society can't get back to flourishing. Don't be part of the problem.
On February 05 2017 06:13 seopthi wrote: Thanks for the thoughtful comment NonY. First part reminded me how Lilbow gave up on BlizzCon
I don't know what's so thoughtful about his comment. He defends a criminal. Yes, Life deserves a second chance. However, a quick check shows that athletes caught with doping get like 2 years ban at least. While this isn't the same offence, you want StarCraft 2 to be considered e-Sports, don't you? So, 1 year isn't enough. He should be banned for at least one more year.
I can't help but still love this guy for what he has accomplished, however my interest on the game drops quite a bit because of his disapperance caused by his matchfixing, hopefully, there are still Snute, Nerchio and always Stephano to follow! Concerning his punishment, I think it is a bit too much (an one or two years ban should be ok considering the fact that the carrer of a pro gamer last for less time than a classic athlete at least on the mainstream sports) but that does not change the fact that we will never see him again in sc2, Korean society does not forgive easely those sort of acts.
On January 30 2017 06:59 Solar424 wrote: As much as I loved life, matchfixing should have a zero-tolerance policy. The damage he and the others did to the Korean scene is incalculable and they should be banned from anything related to eSports for life.
To say that what he did "incalculable-damage" makes it sounds like he did massive damage to the scene. I disagree. Maybe he hurt the gambling scene, which really has nothing to do with our scene.
This scene has been dying for a long time, truth to power. SOOOOO many bad decisions have been made by blizzard about balance and a system for WCS... and intervening at all in the Korean scene which was THRIVING as far as I could tell, before blizzard got their hands into it.
This scene has been living on a non-sustainable business model for a long time, and the bubble burst. Plus it's an insanely complex game, most people don't have the time to learn it, which is why a simple (by rule and complex by strategy) game like csgo is thriving. People watch games like football and basket ball, you throw a ball through a hoop or walk a ball over a line. How to you expect the population to grasp a game this complex?
Also, Heroes of the storm has been growing pretty steadily with the new HGC format. I think blizzard is understanding what works better and better. That format is infinitely better for the players and viewers, more games for us and promised money to the players. We were just the guinea pigs in sc2 for esports.
In a better system, hopefully players don't feel tempted to cheat a corrupt system of gambling to make extra money.
Ps. gambling is corrupt, period. In the sense that, sure you can do it, but you are just fucking yourself out of your own money because it's all rigged against you. So its never something that can operate in a "clean" way, it will always be taking advantage of you. If someone comes in and takes advantage of the bookie I don't really feel bad. In gambling someone is always taking advantage of someone else.
Psps. I vote let Life back in. Keep the ban for another year or two, then make a probation period, if there is still a scene by then let him back.
"To forgive is divine," it's been said countless times by infinite great thinkers, also punitive measure have been executed countless times by tyrants yielding nothing.
Sponsors don't want to invest in a scene where matchfixing is a problem. It had a lot to do with the downfall of Kespa BW and it probably had something to deal with the Kespa teams dropping SC2.
Clearly, match-fixing hasn't destroyed Counter-Strike. That said, it doesn't mean it's immune to it. It's just a counter-argument to what you said. SC2 was still in decline regardless of Life's match-fixing.
CS:GO was already too big to fail by the time the matchfixing scandal happened, while Korean SC2 was hanging on by a thread. But I'm sure it's just a coincidence that all the Korean teams disbanded when their contracts ran out after the Life matchfixing was exposed. The CS:GO matchfixing was also just one instance, while in SC2 it was apparent that it was much more common, with some cases we'll probably never know about.
So you'll basically saying that match fixing is still happening but you have no proof. In that case, the NFL is nothing but matchfixing but I have no proof, you need to just believe me.
You guys don't understand that he harmed the reputation of the scene... and thus brought down sc2 alot. Koreans are unforgiving when it comes to things like this. He does not deserve a 2nd chance.
On February 05 2017 06:13 seopthi wrote: Thanks for the thoughtful comment NonY. First part reminded me how Lilbow gave up on BlizzCon
I don't know what's so thoughtful about his comment. He defends a criminal. Yes, Life deserves a second chance. However, a quick check shows that athletes caught with doping get like 2 years ban at least. While this isn't the same offence, you want StarCraft 2 to be considered e-Sports, don't you? So, 1 year isn't enough. He should be banned for at least one more year.
A sports career is usually far longer than an esports career though, for us a year is longer than 2 is for them. No one would hurt from Life being unbanned.
On January 30 2017 06:59 Solar424 wrote: As much as I loved life, matchfixing should have a zero-tolerance policy. The damage he and the others did to the Korean scene is incalculable and they should be banned from anything related to eSports for life.
To say that what he did "incalculable-damage" makes it sounds like he did massive damage to the scene. I disagree. Maybe he hurt the gambling scene, which really has nothing to do with our scene.
This scene has been dying for a long time, truth to power. SOOOOO many bad decisions have been made by blizzard about balance and a system for WCS... and intervening at all in the Korean scene which was THRIVING as far as I could tell, before blizzard got their hands into it.
This scene has been living on a non-sustainable business model for a long time, and the bubble burst. Plus it's an insanely complex game, most people don't have the time to learn it, which is why a simple (by rule and complex by strategy) game like csgo is thriving. People watch games like football and basket ball, you throw a ball through a hoop or walk a ball over a line. How to you expect the population to grasp a game this complex?
Also, Heroes of the storm has been growing pretty steadily with the new HGC format. I think blizzard is understanding what works better and better. That format is infinitely better for the players and viewers, more games for us and promised money to the players. We were just the guinea pigs in sc2 for esports.
In a better system, hopefully players don't feel tempted to cheat a corrupt system of gambling to make extra money.
Ps. gambling is corrupt, period. In the sense that, sure you can do it, but you are just fucking yourself out of your own money because it's all rigged against you. So its never something that can operate in a "clean" way, it will always be taking advantage of you. If someone comes in and takes advantage of the bookie I don't really feel bad. In gambling someone is always taking advantage of someone else.
Psps. I vote let Life back in. Keep the ban for another year or two, then make a probation period, if there is still a scene by then let him back.
"To forgive is divine," it's been said countless times by infinite great thinkers, also punitive measure have been executed countless times by tyrants yielding nothing.
Sponsors don't want to invest in a scene where matchfixing is a problem. It had a lot to do with the downfall of Kespa BW and it probably had something to deal with the Kespa teams dropping SC2.
Clearly, match-fixing hasn't destroyed Counter-Strike. That said, it doesn't mean it's immune to it. It's just a counter-argument to what you said. SC2 was still in decline regardless of Life's match-fixing.
CS:GO was already too big to fail by the time the matchfixing scandal happened, while Korean SC2 was hanging on by a thread. But I'm sure it's just a coincidence that all the Korean teams disbanded when their contracts ran out after the Life matchfixing was exposed. The CS:GO matchfixing was also just one instance, while in SC2 it was apparent that it was much more common, with some cases we'll probably never know about.
So you'll basically saying that match fixing is still happening but you have no proof. In that case, the NFL is nothing but matchfixing but I have no proof, you need to just believe me.
Just use logic here: what are the chances that the 4 cases of matchfixing that we know about are the only ones that actually happened? Pretty damn low. There are probably some cases that fell threw the cracks or got dropped because there wasn't enough evidence. If Bbyong hadn't turned himself in would we have found out about him? We don't know.
Well said Nony, hopefully people skipping past most of the comments will actually read that. So many still castigate Life as if he's the only one at fault and that he razed an entire esport by himself, when in reality he didn't destroy anything other than his own career and disappoint some fans by performing slightly worse on one day. And as you said, he's more like a drop of oil in the gambling machine, a pawn, and the real problem is running just as smooth without him on the chessboard.
On February 05 2017 05:52 NonY wrote: ...If they're not behaving rationally, it does nothing.
Criminals often commit what they do not only because of risk/reward, but because they believe they will not get caught as you stated. They believe they can control the risk, and therefore only the reward is present. Life may very well have thought he could get away with this, and thus believed there was no risk.
Is that rational? Well, there are thousands, if not millions of criminals out there who haven't and won't get caught. Logic tells us they made a perfectly rational decision that benefited them. By definition, only dumb criminals get caught. Life was dumb.
The issue with crime and punishment is that reforming criminals can be notoriously difficult and unreliable, and we don't want them on the streets like we don't want cheaters in games because they ruin the integrity of society and the game respectively. And once a person has cheated or committed a crime once, they are exponentially more likely to do it again. The recidivism rate in the United States is over 76%.
A system without serious enough consequences also risks corruption. When police can be bought off, or players can be bought off the system is failing. Slapping people on the wrist is not the answer. Harsh punishments are necessary to ensure that crime doesn't pay.
Singapore has serious consequences for drug trafficking (death penalty), and the result is one of the lowest rates of drug abuse in the world. Without drugs plaguing the streets, there is not the crime associated with it, nor the deaths from abuse. Addicts are given two chances to kick the habit before they are thrown in jail. Stiff punishments can work. Mexico is a mess because it doesn’t have serious enough consequences.
It sounds harsh, but when someone is breaking into your home at night to steal things to sell for their addiction, it becomes real. It isn't an irrational part of my brain that wants them locked up it, it is the part of my brain that values physical safety for my family and myself.
No one should live in fear that they will be harmed physically because of the actions of another, and before we get someone preaching about how we shouldn't we make decisions on crime and punishment based on fear, try telling that to a child who is crying because their home was broken into, and now can't sleep. That kind of thing should be prevented at any cost. Those who choose violence and intimidation as a path should be removed from society.
The same could be done for offenses in gaming. A lifetime ban from competing would result in far less people cheating, and no repeat offenders. People use PEDs in sports because the reward is perhaps climbing further up the competitive ladder, becoming a champion, or maybe just staying on the team. The risk is usually just a short suspension (varies by sport). And that is why so many athletes decide to juice. We wouldn't get that if we had lifetime bans.
On February 05 2017 10:18 [N3O]r3d33m3r wrote: You guys don't understand that he harmed the reputation of the scene... and thus brought down sc2 alot. Koreans are unforgiving when it comes to things like this. He does not deserve a 2nd chance.
Sc2 was already dying before Life was caught match fixing. The game would be in the same situation, Life made no difference. The world gave Germany a second chance, why can't you give life a second chance?
On February 05 2017 10:18 [N3O]r3d33m3r wrote: You guys don't understand that he harmed the reputation of the scene... and thus brought down sc2 alot. Koreans are unforgiving when it comes to things like this. He does not deserve a 2nd chance.
On January 30 2017 07:01 fishjie wrote: still dont see the big deal is, who cares if he match fixed? thats not a crime deserving of jail. its just a video game at the end of the day. so his life is ruined because he didnt win some games that he could have, and a bunch of self righteous people in korea think gambling is bad. its not.
You literally have a whole page of people telling you what damage he did.
yeah a bunch of people justifying a kid going to jail because he PLAYED VIDEO GAMES AND LOST ON PURPOSE. jail. life completely ruined. seriously who cares? let him keep playing video games. who cares if he throws them? his loss at the end of the day. whatever laws are there are so so dumb and idiotic it boggles the mind.
same applies for real sports too. who cares if people throw the game on purpose. people lose all perspective. its just a game at the end of the day doesnt matter. entertainment and that's it. dont throw people in jail over it
On February 05 2017 19:28 ReachTheSky wrote: Life is not welcome in the sc2 community. There is no place for matchfixers, period. We should accept this and move on.
Speak for yourself. I for one will always appreciate beautiful StarCraft no matter who happens to be playing it.
On January 30 2017 06:32 seopthi wrote: A year ago, Life has been arrested for match fixing. In his memory, let me add a comment in his defense.
When the match fixing scandal happened, he was 19 and like most teenagers, he was probably stupid and unwise. The circumstances are unknown, i.e it is possible that the betting ring is organized by some sort of mafia and that he might have been threatened if he did not comply.
Also, it is for example possible that he may be autistic and he might have not understood fully what has been happening. But generally, a teenager like this without school, with loads of money and spending, probably without much help (esp. KeSPA’s treatment) lacking this sort of moral compass is bound to happen.
However, compared to someone like Lance Armstrong, the details about Life’s scandal are completely unknown. Everyone acts like nothing has happened and he has never existed. I’m pretty sure that since the incident he has never been mentioned in GSL/SSL/ProLeague. I think that only once Rotterdam mentioned him last Blizzcon. Of course while watching ESPN or whatever sports broadcasts, there is no shame of discussing something like this.
Tl;dr: At least in Western culture, everyone should get a second chance. He did a wrong thing as a teenager under unknown circumstances and should be allowed to come out, explain what happened, apologize for it, and be an ambassador against shadiness that will still exist in any sport — as many players, previously banned for much worse things, have done in other sports.
Firstly... This "He was only 19 years old" argument is bullshit. At least in "Western Culture" 19 years old peoples are voting in elections. That means a 19 years old teenager should have the mindset of adult and he/she has rights to decide what is right/what is wrong. Also this means he/she has to face consequences of his/her decisions.
On February 05 2017 05:52 NonY wrote: ...If they're not behaving rationally, it does nothing.
Criminals often commit what they do not only because of risk/reward, but because they believe they will not get caught as you stated. They believe they can control the risk, and therefore only the reward is present. Life may very well have thought he could get away with this, and thus believed there was no risk.
Secondly... As you can see I am Turk. And I'm used to be a journalist in mainstream sport media. (Unfortunately not anymore but thats another topic) Maybe you don't know but Turks and Russians are the dirtiest athletes in athletics. Russian doping scandal is different but i would like to talk about Turks.
A lot of Turkish athletes decides use drugs for enchance their performance. Last year an investigation showed %60 of the athletes tried drugs OR thinked to use drugs. When they asked for "Why" they generally said "We were thinking we could get away from anti-doping. Even we get caught, we get our money and incident will be forgotten already"
Life wasn't doping. But he did a crime against Starcraft community, especially at Korea. If you forgive him to be an "ambassador" against matchfixing, you also sending a message to other players, which is "You can matchfix, you don't get caught, even you get caught you 'can' be forgiven"
No. This should not happen. Matchfixing does not destroy a sports popularity. (Actually it improves popularity after big scandal) But it destroys viewers trust. If you cannot rebuild viewers trust you'll realize people lose their interest after scandal hype over. Just look Lance Drugstrong then look UCI's reaction. Or Look IOC's reaction after Russian Drug scandal. They are trying to rebuild trust. (They may fail or they may succeed. Thats another topic) But if Kespa forgives Life this would be a big step to wrong direction.
On January 30 2017 06:32 seopthi wrote: A year ago, Life has been arrested for match fixing. In his memory, let me add a comment in his defense.
When the match fixing scandal happened, he was 19 and like most teenagers, he was probably stupid and unwise. The circumstances are unknown, i.e it is possible that the betting ring is organized by some sort of mafia and that he might have been threatened if he did not comply.
Also, it is for example possible that he may be autistic and he might have not understood fully what has been happening. But generally, a teenager like this without school, with loads of money and spending, probably without much help (esp. KeSPA’s treatment) lacking this sort of moral compass is bound to happen.
However, compared to someone like Lance Armstrong, the details about Life’s scandal are completely unknown. Everyone acts like nothing has happened and he has never existed. I’m pretty sure that since the incident he has never been mentioned in GSL/SSL/ProLeague. I think that only once Rotterdam mentioned him last Blizzcon. Of course while watching ESPN or whatever sports broadcasts, there is no shame of discussing something like this.
Tl;dr: At least in Western culture, everyone should get a second chance. He did a wrong thing as a teenager under unknown circumstances and should be allowed to come out, explain what happened, apologize for it, and be an ambassador against shadiness that will still exist in any sport — as many players, previously banned for much worse things, have done in other sports.
Firstly... This "He was only 19 years old" argument is bullshit. At least in "Western Culture" 19 years old peoples are voting in elections. That means a 19 years old teenager should have the mindset of adult and he/she has rights to decide what is right/what is wrong. Also this means he/she has to face consequences of his/her decisions.
But not old enough to buy alcohol, so apparently they don't have the right to decide what's right/what's wrong.
Well, I have a different cultural background than many here but I don't why Life returning would be such a big problem. He never cheated to gain unfair advantage so he didn't commit crime against the spirit of SC itself. He has damaged the competitive scene but that scene is dead now after Kespa teams disbanded and Proleague folded. The lack of young talent is a greater problem so a certain flexibility could be beneficial.
I fail to see how hard punishment is a solution. If anything, life-time bans stimulate matchfixing because if you done it once there is no coming back meaning you should get the most out of it before you get caught. The general idea is that certainty of punishment is more likely to deter crime than length but SC history doesn't look very good in this regard (I probably shouldn't continue this line of thought to avoid accusing players without evidence).
I see tennis as a great comparable "real" sports for Starcraft 2 - an individual sport with various levels of tournaments around the world where significant money is required to participate in them and lower level players generally struggle to make the ends meet. It's been a year since the big journalist investigation about matchfixing in tennis when there was vague implications that even top-20 tennis players could have participated in it, a few days since a winner of junior grand slam was charged with matchfixing and I remember how in 2007 Djokovic (who was 3rd best player in the world at the time) told that he was offered to fix a match a year prior and Davydenko (who was 4th best player in the world at the time) was accused of intentionally losing a match. Despite all of this, tennis was and is still going strong while players receive various bans - some of them even return to playing after them.
In short, in a world where Justin Gatlin can win a gold medal in Athens, serve 4 years for taking PEDs and win bronze in London and silver in Rio afterwards, I see no reason why Life couldn't (or shouldn't) come back to play SC2 competitively.
On January 30 2017 07:01 fishjie wrote: still dont see the big deal is, who cares if he match fixed? thats not a crime deserving of jail. its just a video game at the end of the day. so his life is ruined because he didnt win some games that he could have, and a bunch of self righteous people in korea think gambling is bad. its not.
You literally have a whole page of people telling you what damage he did.
yeah a bunch of people justifying a kid going to jail because he PLAYED VIDEO GAMES AND LOST ON PURPOSE. jail. life completely ruined. seriously who cares? let him keep playing video games. who cares if he throws them? his loss at the end of the day. whatever laws are there are so so dumb and idiotic it boggles the mind.
same applies for real sports too. who cares if people throw the game on purpose. people lose all perspective. its just a game at the end of the day doesnt matter. entertainment and that's it. dont throw people in jail over it
I am so tired of people posting stuff like "he went to jail for playing video games" or "It's just a game, how can you go to jail for that?" No, that is not what happened.
He went to jail because he took money from organized gambling rings to throw his matches. Gambling is illegal in South Korea. Life broke the law by accepting illegal money to throw his games so he was punished by the law. I'm guessing the match fixing itself is probably also a crime, but I don't know anything about South Korean law. It's not like KeSPA took him to civil court with a lawsuit and that put him in jail (although they claimed they would do that to sue for damages), he was arrested by actual police and tried in a criminal court. And he was only in jail for two months while the investigation was ongoing and he was awaiting his sentence. After that he was fined and released with a suspended sentence.
If you break the law you get punished, that's how the law works. You don't get a free pass from breaking the law by saying what you did didn't really matter.
Now, you might argue that the sentence was to harsh and that's your personal opinion. Life even tried to appeal himself but it was dismissed. So unless there are any people in here who are experts on the South Korean justice system who can say otherwise, I'd say the sentence was just fine.
Yes, but legality is not the question. Wrong things can be legal while good things illegal.
If he was prosecuted for doing weed, you could also say that he was acting against the law; but the point I would make is that it would have been a victimless crime and he should not be prosecuted.
Drugs are prohibited, but still omnipresent. The only consequence of banning drugs is that they are pricier, a lot of shadiness/violence is involved (because cannot use legal police) and some poor kids go to jail.
Betting as such should not be a crime; you can sportsbet in many places in the world. In my country the main betting site includes CS/LoL, etc. Now, you can even bet on anything safely using bitcoin (i.e BetMoose)
But prohibiting a victimless crime like this just creates all shady rings and mafia, the same way mafia arose during alcohol prohibition in the US or anywhere where drugs are prohibited.
Matchfixing is a crime with a victim--and the main victim are bettors who lost due to him not playing as he would've otherwise--and he should have reprimanded them.
In this post I just want to point out that whether he broke a law should not be as relevant as to what degree it is an immoral thing -- and these are not the same. (to finally fulfill godwin's law, in an extreme case you cannot blame ann frank for breaking a law)
The law is the law, and Life was punished according to the law.
Once you bring in "should," it becomes a question of morality, which is obviously very subjective. In this case, Koreans (via KeSPA) frown on betting and matchfixing to the extent that they issue lifetime bans. This is a well-known and widely accepted policy in professional Starcraft, and iirc has never had any exceptions.
Life was an incredibly skilled player, but he was still a player like any other, and to make an exception for him would break the entire concept of blind justice.
Whether or not KeSPA should have a lifetime ban policy is up to the Korean scene and its morals, not the morality of foreign fans. Yes, Life was amazing. No, he's not coming back. And as far as Korea is concerned, that's the way it should be so that's the way it is.
I like to imagine how Life, or any other amazingly talented player, who gets banned from official (e)sports because of some stupid mistake he made - keeps playing, unknown. Yeah, he smashes that ladder with his ||||||| account, forsaken by the world, but still effing up those other Code S lads like they've never seen lings in their life.
On February 06 2017 06:08 seopthi wrote: Yes, but legality is not the question. Wrong things can be legal while good things illegal.
If he was prosecuted for doing weed, you could also say that he was acting against the law; but the point I would make is that it would have been a victimless crime and he should not be prosecuted.
Drugs are prohibited, but still omnipresent. The only consequence of banning drugs is that they are pricier, a lot of shadiness/violence is involved (because cannot use legal police) and some poor kids go to jail.
Betting as such should not be a crime; you can sportsbet in many places in the world. In my country the main betting site includes CS/LoL, etc. Now, you can even bet on anything safely using bitcoin (i.e BetMoose)
But prohibiting a victimless crime like this just creates all shady rings and mafia, the same way mafia arose during alcohol prohibition in the US or anywhere where drugs are prohibited.
Matchfixing is a crime with a victim--and the main victim are bettors who lost due to him not playing as he would've otherwise--and he should have reprimanded them.
In this post I just want to point out that whether he broke a law should not be as relevant as to what degree it is an immoral thing -- and these are not the same. (to finally fulfill godwin's law, in an extreme case you cannot blame ann frank for breaking a law)
Is this a reply to me? Because I'm not arguing if what he did is good or bad or whether there are any victims. I'm not even commenting on the fact that KeSPA gave him a lifetime ban. And you can post your opinions about how gambling shouldn't be illegal all you want (I actually agree), but the fact is that right now in South Korea it's illegal so if you don't want to end up in court you probably shouldn't do it.
I'm simply replying to all those people who say he was just playing a video game and that shouldn't land you in jail. But fact is he broke the law and ended up in jail for two months. So yes, legality is the question here.
On February 06 2017 06:08 seopthi wrote: Yes, but legality is not the question. Wrong things can be legal while good things illegal.
If he was prosecuted for doing weed, you could also say that he was acting against the law; but the point I would make is that it would have been a victimless crime and he should not be prosecuted.
Drugs are prohibited, but still omnipresent. The only consequence of banning drugs is that they are pricier, a lot of shadiness/violence is involved (because cannot use legal police) and some poor kids go to jail.
Betting as such should not be a crime; you can sportsbet in many places in the world. In my country the main betting site includes CS/LoL, etc. Now, you can even bet on anything safely using bitcoin (i.e BetMoose)
But prohibiting a victimless crime like this just creates all shady rings and mafia, the same way mafia arose during alcohol prohibition in the US or anywhere where drugs are prohibited.
Matchfixing is a crime with a victim--and the main victim are bettors who lost due to him not playing as he would've otherwise--and he should have reprimanded them.
In this post I just want to point out that whether he broke a law should not be as relevant as to what degree it is an immoral thing -- and these are not the same. (to finally fulfill godwin's law, in an extreme case you cannot blame ann frank for breaking a law)
Is this a reply to me? Because I'm not arguing if what he did is good or bad or whether there are any victims. I'm not even commenting on the fact that KeSPA gave him a lifetime ban. And you can post your opinions about how gambling shouldn't be illegal all you want (I actually agree), but the fact is that right now in South Korea it's illegal so if you don't want to end up in court you probably shouldn't do it.
I'm simply replying to all those people who say he was just playing a video game and that shouldn't land you in jail. But fact is he broke the law and ended up in jail for two months. So yes, legality is the question here.
It's crazy if you think about it. Going to jail for playing a videogame. However if someone did the same with a sport people would say similiar. The law is the law:/
the thing is, he cant have disappeared from the face of the earth. someone must have means to get in contact with him right? i would love to hear from him. his side of the story. maybe an apology to the community. what he is doing right now and what his plans are for the future. does he still play sc2? does he plan to appeal to blizzard somewhere in the future for a return? i would be so happy if someone could get a hold of him and ask him these things. anyone from korea? or maybe zealously?
On February 06 2017 21:52 evolsiefil wrote: the thing is, he cant have disappeared from the face of the earth. someone must have means to get in contact with him right? i would love to hear from him. his side of the story. maybe an apology to the community. what he is doing right now and what his plans are for the future. does he still play sc2? does he plan to appeal to blizzard somewhere in the future for a return? i would be so happy if someone could get a hold of him and ask him these things. anyone from korea? or maybe zealously?
Most likely anyone in Korea has gone with the "no forgiveness period" side of things, like a lot of people in here, or stays silent about their contact with them because their peers would reject them for talking to a criminal.
I'm sorry for being cynical here but how this post going for 14 pages is just kind of beyond me. There are plenty of players out there who deserve the attention and passion that is shown in this post and no one seems to care. Wasting your time on a player who has no respect for his profession or his fans is simply idiotic to say at least.
He didn't apologize to the fans or the community nor asking Blizzard for a second chance (or at least not that I know of). The guy shows no remorse or an attempt to correct his mistakes and somehow people coming here fight for his own redemption? I actually don't understand.
that is probably because there NOT plenty of players that deserve our (or mine at least) attention. not only was life the GOAT, he also stood out of the rest of the faceless pile of sc2 players with his non meta playstyle, his cockyness, in game bm and attitude in general. he was exactly what sc2 is lacking so dearly. charisma. players like life, idra, mc etc of which other games have dozens of but sc2 only had a handful during its whole existence.
On February 06 2017 21:52 evolsiefil wrote: the thing is, he cant have disappeared from the face of the earth. someone must have means to get in contact with him right? i would love to hear from him. his side of the story. maybe an apology to the community. what he is doing right now and what his plans are for the future. does he still play sc2? does he plan to appeal to blizzard somewhere in the future for a return? i would be so happy if someone could get a hold of him and ask him these things. anyone from korea? or maybe zealously?
On February 06 2017 21:52 evolsiefil wrote: the thing is, he cant have disappeared from the face of the earth. someone must have means to get in contact with him right? i would love to hear from him. his side of the story. maybe an apology to the community. what he is doing right now and what his plans are for the future. does he still play sc2? does he plan to appeal to blizzard somewhere in the future for a return? i would be so happy if someone could get a hold of him and ask him these things. anyone from korea? or maybe zealously?
I agree 100%
So... Indeed, any kind of new info? Not specifically these points, but just what he or BByong or the Prime guys (including MKP, although not accused/prosecuted/convicted) are up to now.
I stopped looking from page 5 on, as these were rehashing of the same debates and discussions, which provides (to me) below 0.1% signal to noise ratio.
people are claiming things from "he just played a video game" to "he is the single reason that brought SC2 down".
Let's try a more objective and quantifiable calculation of the damage.
1. he got 60'000$ for losing two games 2. illegal gambling organizations might have paid him 20%? (A number I pulled out of my hat, probably on the higher end) 3. This means betters got cheated out of 300'000$ (at least).
Yes, he also affected viewer trust (honestly, only because his actions were discovered, else we would have never noticed). But the tangible damage to society is estimated to be somewhere north of 300'000$.
It's super interesting reading this thread as a big BW fan. Don't get me wrong I followed a lot of SC2 especially in the early days but it's declining more and more.
I used to eat so much shit for wanting Savior to return. He did the exact same thing as Life did, rigged games and almost killed BW due to sponsors dropping out. It seems a big majority of sc2 fans at least wouldn't mind Life returning... And I agree with Life as well as Savior. They did shitty things no one can deny that but we are all humans and deserve second chances.
On February 07 2017 00:24 DwD wrote: It's super interesting reading this thread as a big BW fan. Don't get me wrong I followed a lot of SC2 especially in the early days but it's declining more and more.
I used to eat so much shit for wanting Savior to return. He did the exact same thing as Life did, rigged games and almost killed BW due to sponsors dropping out. It seems a big majority of sc2 fans at least wouldn't mind Life returning... And I agree with Life as well as Savior. They did shitty things no one can deny that but we are all humans and deserve second chances.
Shitting all over the scene like they did does not mean they deserve second chances. They are entitled to nothing and deserve nothing but exile from the community. I would boycott any sc2 content and convince others to do so as well if they were to return.
On February 06 2017 23:08 Vutalisk wrote: I'm sorry for being cynical here but how this post going for 14 pages is just kind of beyond me. There are plenty of players out there who deserve the attention and passion that is shown in this post and no one seems to care. Wasting your time on a player who has no respect for his profession or his fans is simply idiotic to say at least.
He didn't apologize to the fans or the community nor asking Blizzard for a second chance (or at least not that I know of). The guy shows no remorse or an attempt to correct his mistakes and somehow people coming here fight for his own redemption? I actually don't understand.
Disagree. There's nobody in the scene that had as much going for him as Life did in terms of success in SC2 performance. He was consistent on a yearly basis when it mattered and always found a way to win even though it didn't seem possible. His way of controlling lings was just completely unlike any other player. He's the GOAT for me and will remain that until someone surpasses him.
He was probably not given a chance to speak out when he got prosecuted, and I can see him feeling it's too late to say anything now, koreans being ashamed very easily and it being a way bigger deal over there than here. We also don't know the extent to which he was forced into doing so, we've heard of multiple occasions of these fixers forcing it from players through some way of extortion.
I'd really love to hear from him, whatever he'd end up saying.
On February 06 2017 23:08 Vutalisk wrote: I'm sorry for being cynical here but how this post going for 14 pages is just kind of beyond me. There are plenty of players out there who deserve the attention and passion that is shown in this post and no one seems to care. Wasting your time on a player who has no respect for his profession or his fans is simply idiotic to say at least.
He didn't apologize to the fans or the community nor asking Blizzard for a second chance (or at least not that I know of). The guy shows no remorse or an attempt to correct his mistakes and somehow people coming here fight for his own redemption? I actually don't understand.
Disagree. There's nobody in the scene that had as much going for him as Life did in terms of success in SC2 performance. He was consistent on a yearly basis when it mattered and always found a way to win even though it didn't seem possible. His way of controlling lings was just completely unlike any other player. He's the GOAT for me and will remain that until someone surpasses him.
He was probably not given a chance to speak out when he got prosecuted, and I can see him feeling it's too late to say anything now, koreans being ashamed very easily and it being a way bigger deal over there than here. We also don't know the extent to which he was forced into doing so, we've heard of multiple occasions of these fixers forcing it from players through some way of extortion.
I'd really love to hear from him, whatever he'd end up saying.
I never question his talent as I'm a fan of his lings style as well if that's what you are referencing to. His skills and talent are certainly impressive but a GOAT, that is debatable at the very least. Frankly, calling a guy, who match-fixed because of pure greed after already winning a ton of money, a GOAT is an insult for another players who work hard to earn a penny in this profession.
I personally want to hear what he has to say to defend himself and tell his side of the story. However, I'm gonna be blunt here by saying that he was match-fixing out of greed and that's all it is. During his appeal process, he used his age as an excuse to reduce his sentence. If he was really threatened by some "mafia" like you guys claim it is to be the case, he would already use that reason. Frankly, I call BS on the whole he was forced into doing this because there was no evidence to back that at all.
Last but not least, I'm Asian too and I understand the shame and the guilt that sometimes holding you back from speaking the truth out loud after time already passed by. However, if you feel like you want a closure and a chance for redemption and there is a concrete evidence to back you up, you will flight your heart out to have a chance to tell your story. He didn't do anything. Also, better late than never. He can always speak out and that is his own choosing.
If I remember correctly,there was a tweet of a Korean SC2 personality who said that Life and BByong weren't the only progamers caught in matchfixing,but ,after that tweet,not a single word has been said about the scandal.Is it strange,don't you think?
We know about the Prime scandal with Yoda, B4 and Gerrard. But I wouldn't count that incident as much. While it was still matchfixing and therefore a bad thing, they really were in a hard spot, probably pressured by Gerrard and others and also trying to survive against all odds as professional players on a professional team.
On February 06 2017 23:24 evolsiefil wrote: that is probably because there NOT plenty of players that deserve our (or mine at least) attention. not only was life the GOAT, he also stood out of the rest of the faceless pile of sc2 players with his non meta playstyle, his cockyness, in game bm and attitude in general. he was exactly what sc2 is lacking so dearly. charisma. players like life, idra, mc etc of which other games have dozens of but sc2 only had a handful during its whole existence.
This! Im sorry but im so sick of people that are almost happy that he's banned lifetime. Really this guy made a stuppid mistake and got punished. But really lifetime ban? Pretty sick of these people that love these methods of punishing.
On February 06 2017 23:24 evolsiefil wrote: that is probably because there NOT plenty of players that deserve our (or mine at least) attention. not only was life the GOAT, he also stood out of the rest of the faceless pile of sc2 players with his non meta playstyle, his cockyness, in game bm and attitude in general. he was exactly what sc2 is lacking so dearly. charisma. players like life, idra, mc etc of which other games have dozens of but sc2 only had a handful during its whole existence.
This! Im sorry but im so sick of people that are almost happy that he's banned lifetime. Really this guy made a stuppid mistake and got punished. But really lifetime ban? Pretty sick of these people that love these methods of punishing.
Life's achievements are less those of the other top players. He isn't close to the GOAT or a bonjwa by any means. Do some research. MC/MVP are goat material. Life is not. Stop praising players that have helped create a bad reputation for the sc2 scene, it's not very becoming. Life=trash
On February 06 2017 23:24 evolsiefil wrote: that is probably because there NOT plenty of players that deserve our (or mine at least) attention. not only was life the GOAT, he also stood out of the rest of the faceless pile of sc2 players with his non meta playstyle, his cockyness, in game bm and attitude in general. he was exactly what sc2 is lacking so dearly. charisma. players like life, idra, mc etc of which other games have dozens of but sc2 only had a handful during its whole existence.
This! Im sorry but im so sick of people that are almost happy that he's banned lifetime. Really this guy made a stuppid mistake and got punished. But really lifetime ban? Pretty sick of these people that love these methods of punishing.
Life's achievements are less those of the other top players. He isn't close to the GOAT or a bonjwa by any means. Do some research. MC/MVP are goat material. Life is not. Stop praising players that have helped create a bad reputation for the sc2 scene, it's not very becoming. Life=trash
Are you serious? You realize Life has won 10 Championships right? 10! He was by far the best zerg player in HotS. You're just purely looking at price money and trying to make a point with it. His unique style combined with insane mechanics made him the best zerg that ever played Sc2. How can you be so negative about him is beyond me.
On February 06 2017 23:24 evolsiefil wrote: that is probably because there NOT plenty of players that deserve our (or mine at least) attention. not only was life the GOAT, he also stood out of the rest of the faceless pile of sc2 players with his non meta playstyle, his cockyness, in game bm and attitude in general. he was exactly what sc2 is lacking so dearly. charisma. players like life, idra, mc etc of which other games have dozens of but sc2 only had a handful during its whole existence.
This! Im sorry but im so sick of people that are almost happy that he's banned lifetime. Really this guy made a stuppid mistake and got punished. But really lifetime ban? Pretty sick of these people that love these methods of punishing.
I dunno about other people, but the lifetime ban is a reflection of trust that was broken and can't be rebuilt again. Even if he came back, every time he makes a mistake or throws a game or betting lines around him move, people will raise eyebrows about whether he's match fixing again.
Most professions share this view. If you steal, you'll be banned for life from ever managing other people's money. If you cheat, you'll be banned for life from professions where integrity and honesty are critical values to uphold.
I don't wish Life badly and I wouldn't say he's a terrible person. He was a great player and a great personality. But he simply can't be involved in professional e-sports. If the e-sport can't survive without him, then it isn't going to survive anyways.
On February 06 2017 23:24 evolsiefil wrote: that is probably because there NOT plenty of players that deserve our (or mine at least) attention. not only was life the GOAT, he also stood out of the rest of the faceless pile of sc2 players with his non meta playstyle, his cockyness, in game bm and attitude in general. he was exactly what sc2 is lacking so dearly. charisma. players like life, idra, mc etc of which other games have dozens of but sc2 only had a handful during its whole existence.
This! Im sorry but im so sick of people that are almost happy that he's banned lifetime. Really this guy made a stuppid mistake and got punished. But really lifetime ban? Pretty sick of these people that love these methods of punishing.
Most professions share this view. If you steal, you'll be banned for life from ever managing other people's money. If you cheat, you'll be banned for life from professions where integrity and honesty are critical values to uphold.
In this thread are multiple examples of sportsmen who did doping/cheated and were given a second chance, i.e
On February 06 2017 01:02 Ingvar wrote:
In short, in a world where Justin Gatlin can win a gold medal in Athens, serve 4 years for taking PEDs and win bronze in London and silver in Rio afterwards, I see no reason why Life couldn't (or shouldn't) come back to play SC2 competitively.
But mainly I'd recommend checking out NonY's post (#244)
On January 30 2017 06:52 DieuCure wrote: at 19y o you know what you do.
He was good at this game, but 100% venal.
He deserves his ban.
The disband of kespas teams is partly due to him
Not if you stopped going to school and moved out of your family house at like 14 to do intensive training every day at a teamhouse.
Also, he had an addiction. People think being addictied to gambling is not a real thing, but it is a true disease that has comparable effects and consecuences to a drug addiction.
I think KeSPA did right to ban him, but I still think it was too harsh and missed the main problem. It's not just about Life here. The gambling guilds (if they can be called that way) will find other ways of finding young, misguided players and convince them to matchfix for them. Banning Life will absolutely calm this for a while, but fear only goes so far, especially if it is not talked about. Once the incident has been forgotten, another Life, Prime or whatever you want to call it will happen.
This is something that HAS to be talked about in order to avoid future incidents. Maybe let the guy stay banned, but for fucks sake I really hope they understand that players are also people who make mistakes and not just evil beings who want to bring down the scene and make money while doing so.
On February 06 2017 23:24 evolsiefil wrote: that is probably because there NOT plenty of players that deserve our (or mine at least) attention. not only was life the GOAT, he also stood out of the rest of the faceless pile of sc2 players with his non meta playstyle, his cockyness, in game bm and attitude in general. he was exactly what sc2 is lacking so dearly. charisma. players like life, idra, mc etc of which other games have dozens of but sc2 only had a handful during its whole existence.
This! Im sorry but im so sick of people that are almost happy that he's banned lifetime. Really this guy made a stuppid mistake and got punished. But really lifetime ban? Pretty sick of these people that love these methods of punishing.
Life's achievements are less those of the other top players. He isn't close to the GOAT or a bonjwa by any means. Do some research. MC/MVP are goat material. Life is not. Stop praising players that have helped create a bad reputation for the sc2 scene, it's not very becoming. Life=trash
Life was actually one of the players that helped create a good reputaion for sc2, as his play was among the most entertaining to watch, and his out-of-game character was fun too.
You must be either really new or really lost in the older past.
The only player in sc2 history to have ever won more tournaments than Life is Taeja, but among those wins are a World Championship and 3 GSLs, of which Taeja has none. So if you do your research, yeah, maybe MC and MVP have won more money, but you can't deny that at the very least they are in the same tier when it comes to titles.
On January 30 2017 06:52 DieuCure wrote: at 19y o you know what you do.
He was good at this game, but 100% venal.
He deserves his ban.
The disband of kespas teams is partly due to him
Not if you stopped going to school and moved out of your family house at like 14 to do intensive training every day at a teamhouse.
Also, he had an addiction. People think being addictied to gambling is not a real thing, but it is a true disease that has comparable effects and consecuences to a drug addiction.
I think KeSPA did right to ban him, but I still think it was too harsh and missed the main problem. It's not just about Life here. The gambling guilds (if they can be called that way) will find other ways of finding young, misguided players and convince them to matchfix for them. Banning Life will absolutely calm this for a while, but fear only goes so far, especially if it is not talked about. Once the incident has been forgotten, another Life, Prime or whatever you want to call it will happen.
This is something that HAS to be talked about in order to avoid future incidents. Maybe let the guy stay banned, but for fucks sake I really hope they understand that players are also people who make mistakes and not just evil beings who want to bring down the scene and make money while doing so.
Stop making life out to be a victim here. Life knew what he was getting into dropping out of school signing up to be a "pro gamer" with zero guarantee. The fans/community is the victim in this circumstance. Life gets zero sympathy and deserves his punishment of being exiled from the community. THIS IS OLD NEWS.. It doesn't need to be talked about anymore. It happened a year ago. Everyone needs to let go of him and get over it. He isn't welcome back.
Some people here are trying to make it sound like Life killed sc2. When the fact is that Sc2 was already dying by itself, slowly but surely. Life being put in jail hurt sc2 because we could not longer watch his amazing plays, nothing to do with the reputation of the sport. It also didn't help that MVP and Nestea had pretty much retired, on top of that all the hype of the bw players like Jaedong and Flash were a huge let down. We quickly found out that they were never on the level of players like MVP and Life and the excitement for the game went down and so did the viewer counts.
I definitely sympathize with the guy, but no. Underlying causes notwithstanding, he still cheated both viewers and sponsors, not to mention other players. It's really unfortunate that Life ended up in a position where he felt like he needed to go along with match fixing, whether the reasons were related to gambling, extortion, or anything else, but it unfortunately doesn't completely absolve him of the problems he probably caused others. Other players were hurt by his actions, which is the only compelling reason for me that he should never be allowed back. Doesn't matter if it was malicious or not
"His old manager from Zenex, Yun Hee-Won, said Life had these problems during their time together, but the manger had taken steps to stop the player."
"Once Life moved to the KT Rolster in February 2015, this was no longer the case. He was a 19-year-old who had $400,000 dollars and very little sense of responsibility and oversight."
i don't know how much of this is accurate, but i'll take it. to the mods, sorry if my formatting is incorrect.
On January 30 2017 07:01 fishjie wrote: still dont see the big deal is, who cares if he match fixed? thats not a crime deserving of jail. its just a video game at the end of the day. so his life is ruined because he didnt win some games that he could have, and a bunch of self righteous people in korea think gambling is bad. its not.
You literally have a whole page of people telling you what damage he did.
yeah a bunch of people justifying a kid going to jail because he PLAYED VIDEO GAMES AND LOST ON PURPOSE. jail. life completely ruined. seriously who cares? let him keep playing video games. who cares if he throws them? his loss at the end of the day. whatever laws are there are so so dumb and idiotic it boggles the mind.
same applies for real sports too. who cares if people throw the game on purpose. people lose all perspective. its just a game at the end of the day doesnt matter. entertainment and that's it. dont throw people in jail over it
I am so tired of people posting stuff like "he went to jail for playing video games" or "It's just a game, how can you go to jail for that?" No, that is not what happened.
He went to jail because he took money from organized gambling rings to throw his matches. Gambling is illegal in South Korea. Life broke the law by accepting illegal money to throw his games so he was punished by the law. I'm guessing the match fixing itself is probably also a crime, but I don't know anything about South Korean law. It's not like KeSPA took him to civil court with a lawsuit and that put him in jail (although they claimed they would do that to sue for damages), he was arrested by actual police and tried in a criminal court. And he was only in jail for two months while the investigation was ongoing and he was awaiting his sentence. After that he was fined and released with a suspended sentence.
If you break the law you get punished, that's how the law works. You don't get a free pass from breaking the law by saying what you did didn't really matter.
Now, you might argue that the sentence was to harsh and that's your personal opinion. Life even tried to appeal himself but it was dismissed. So unless there are any people in here who are experts on the South Korean justice system who can say otherwise, I'd say the sentence was just fine.
yeah i said whatever laws are there are so stupid it boggles the mind. gambling should not be illegal, especially not video game gambling. bbbbbb...bbb.b.but gambling ruins lives some may protest. if people want to ruin their lives by gambling away all their money, well it sucks to be them, but making gambling illegal doesn't help anybody. i say personal accountability is a lost art, but even if you wanna argue that gambling is a disease, then these people should be treated. not punished. nor should the people facilitating the gambling be punished either.
at the end of the day, life played video games and lost on purpose. i could not care less. that just means he lost when he could have won. nobody gets harmed except people who might've lost their life savings, but people wouldn't gamble their life savings on a video game, they'd do that at the roulette wheel. like way worse than throwing a match is naniwa probe rushing, because that game was not even remotely entertaining. at least throwing a match you have to put in the motions. if only life threw the finals vs MVP, then MVP would've gotten another gold. i'd have been happy in that case
so because a country has misguided christian conservative principles and tries to prescribe morality to everyone by banning gambling, a poor kids life has been ruined. so stupid such a waste. all the people being self righteous in here are laughable
On January 30 2017 07:01 fishjie wrote: still dont see the big deal is, who cares if he match fixed? thats not a crime deserving of jail. its just a video game at the end of the day. so his life is ruined because he didnt win some games that he could have, and a bunch of self righteous people in korea think gambling is bad. its not.
You literally have a whole page of people telling you what damage he did.
yeah a bunch of people justifying a kid going to jail because he PLAYED VIDEO GAMES AND LOST ON PURPOSE. jail. life completely ruined. seriously who cares? let him keep playing video games. who cares if he throws them? his loss at the end of the day. whatever laws are there are so so dumb and idiotic it boggles the mind.
same applies for real sports too. who cares if people throw the game on purpose. people lose all perspective. its just a game at the end of the day doesnt matter. entertainment and that's it. dont throw people in jail over it
I am so tired of people posting stuff like "he went to jail for playing video games" or "It's just a game, how can you go to jail for that?" No, that is not what happened.
He went to jail because he took money from organized gambling rings to throw his matches. Gambling is illegal in South Korea. Life broke the law by accepting illegal money to throw his games so he was punished by the law. I'm guessing the match fixing itself is probably also a crime, but I don't know anything about South Korean law. It's not like KeSPA took him to civil court with a lawsuit and that put him in jail (although they claimed they would do that to sue for damages), he was arrested by actual police and tried in a criminal court. And he was only in jail for two months while the investigation was ongoing and he was awaiting his sentence. After that he was fined and released with a suspended sentence.
If you break the law you get punished, that's how the law works. You don't get a free pass from breaking the law by saying what you did didn't really matter.
Now, you might argue that the sentence was to harsh and that's your personal opinion. Life even tried to appeal himself but it was dismissed. So unless there are any people in here who are experts on the South Korean justice system who can say otherwise, I'd say the sentence was just fine.
yeah i said whatever laws are there are so stupid it boggles the mind. gambling should not be illegal, especially not video game gambling. bbbbbb...bbb.b.but gambling ruins lives some may protest. if people want to ruin their lives by gambling away all their money, well it sucks to be them, but making gambling illegal doesn't help anybody. i say personal accountability is a lost art, but even if you wanna argue that gambling is a disease, then these people should be treated. not punished. nor should the people facilitating the gambling be punished either.
at the end of the day, life played video games and lost on purpose. i could not care less. that just means he lost when he could have won. nobody gets harmed except people who might've lost their life savings, but people wouldn't gamble their life savings on a video game, they'd do that at the roulette wheel. like way worse than throwing a match is naniwa probe rushing, because that game was not even remotely entertaining. at least throwing a match you have to put in the motions. if only life threw the finals vs MVP, then MVP would've gotten another gold. i'd have been happy in that case
so because a country has misguided christian conservative principles and tries to prescribe morality to everyone by banning gambling, a poor kids life has been ruined. so stupid such a waste. all the people being self righteous in here are laughable
It's a goddamn shame he got a lifetime ban. Yes what he did was fucked up, and he absolutely had enough agency at 19 to know what he was doing was wrong. However, it always struck me as supremely fucked up that they permanently removed from the scene arguably the most talented Zerg to have ever graced sc2. It's just tragic.
I'm aware that the korean legal culture is particularly harsh on gambling related crimes, but I would sincerely want to believe that given his youth and (from what i understand) mild extent of his matchfixing that he would be given a second chance. If not not only for his sake and development, but for the whole damn scene. At least personally, (and I'm a fucking terran main) the day I found out he was permabanned hit me harder than proleague (or pretty much WCS) going tits up.
thing is, it wouldnt. it would create a lot of buzz and hype around sc2 which is exactly what i needs. and no, not all sponsors would pull out of sc2 because of it. some might, but at least as many would pull in because hype, buzz and viewercount is what sponsors care about most. tons of examples from other sports.
My two cents: I vote give Life a second chance (if he wanted it).
A fundamental value in a just punishment is that it allows for mercy. Thus, where redemption is allowed, one may be redeemed. These are core civil values that Starcraft should in its own microcosm of crime and punishment and rightness consider as a social parameter of no small importance.
On February 09 2017 18:58 Zealously wrote: I definitely sympathize with the guy, but no. Underlying causes notwithstanding, he still cheated both viewers and sponsors, not to mention other players. It's really unfortunate that Life ended up in a position where he felt like he needed to go along with match fixing, whether the reasons were related to gambling, extortion, or anything else, but it unfortunately doesn't completely absolve him of the problems he probably caused others. Other players were hurt by his actions, which is the only compelling reason for me that he should never be allowed back. Doesn't matter if it was malicious or not
Putting his head on a spike wouldn't absolve him either other than that he were utterly gone. Absolution comes with the allowance of redemption: a second chance. The point being that making an example of right moral and competitive boundaries through just punishment is well and good but there is a fine line between what is savage and what is right. A lot of people on this thread seem to be advocating a kind of crude determinism -- to make an example of him absolutely. But to what end?
This is 2017. Do we still put heads on spikes and act as though that suddenly resolves the idea of free will? The answer to that question is yes.
But in starcraft we have a chance to say otherwise. We can have more nuanced ideas here. The fact is players will always have the option by their own agency to cheat, gamble, throw, or vice versa, to rise to the occasion and demonstrate higher values that we look for in pro athletes. Basically, mercy is something that is civil. And an absolutist decree leaves something to be desired here.
even though Life has cause immense damage to the community, I want him to come back and on one condition: he must devote efforts in raising awareness of the dark side of the sport and educate fellow pro gamers about how and why it happens and preventing it from happening
On March 09 2017 09:34 seopthi wrote: Many people say that blackjeff is Life, and I don't know whether it is just an attempt to make it meme/joke or whether there is any evidence
Well it is really easy to tell if someone just checks the hotkeys
Many people say that blackjeff is Life, and I don't know whether it is just an attempt to make it meme/joke or whether there is any evidence
Pretty sure its a meme. At the very least, there's no proof whatsoever.
Besides, even if Life tried to come back, I can't imagine any of the players (or organizations like Afreeca/ESL/etc) would welcome him back with anything but open hostility. He smeared all of their names, damaged all of their livelihoods. Classic was asked about Life in a Dankshrine interview and replied with something along the lines of "I always respected his skills as a player, but we [progamers] don't see Life around anymore, and that's the way it should be."
Many people say that blackjeff is Life, and I don't know whether it is just an attempt to make it meme/joke or whether there is any evidence
Pretty sure its a meme. At the very least, there's no proof whatsoever.
Besides, even if Life tried to come back, I can't imagine any of the players (or organizations like Afreeca/ESL/etc) would welcome him back with anything but open hostility. He smeared all of their names, damaged all of their livelihoods. Classic was asked about Life in a Dankshrine interview and replied with something along the lines of "I always respected his skills as a player, but we [progamers] don't see Life around anymore, and that's the way it should be."
of course they don't want him back, because that means less $
Maybe instead of asking classic about life the guys from dankshrine should try to get life himself. Im sure a lot of people would appreciate to hear from him + their viewercount would go through the roof.. win win situation!
Life needs to come back and save sc2 from it's death. Kespa trying to dictate who can play video games is insane. He should just give the middle finger to Kespa and just compete in foreign tournaments.
He's been punished for his crimes, now let him come back so we can enjoy watching some beautiful sc2.
On March 13 2017 20:24 SuperFanBoy wrote: Life needs to come back and save sc2 from it's death. Kespa trying to dictate who can play video games is insane. He should just give the middle finger to Kespa and just compete in foreign tournaments.
He's been punished for his crimes, now let him come back so we can enjoy watching some beautiful sc2.
And why would a foreign tournament organizer be interested in that? What would the sponsors do? Just let it happen? Kespa is not trying to dictate who can play video games. There is money involved. Is that so hard to get?
imo everyone who cheats in any way during professional games should get a lifetime ban on ANY professional esport game. i dont care if he plays casually, but i hope to not see him again in any esport event...
Purely from a legal perspective though, would Life be allowed to play again? I mean, there are no more KeSPA events anymore. So why should he still be banned?
On March 13 2017 20:56 Swisslink wrote: Purely from a legal perspective though, would Life be allowed to play again? I mean, there are no more KeSPA events anymore. So why should he still be banned?
Considering Blizzard removed his name from the Blizzcon trophy and Afreeca removed him from the wall of GSL champions, I'd say his outlook for returning to competitive would be pretty bad if he was interested.
On March 13 2017 20:56 Swisslink wrote: Purely from a legal perspective though, would Life be allowed to play again? I mean, there are no more KeSPA events anymore. So why should he still be banned?
It wouldn't be unlikely for Blizzard's eSports team to give him a ban on the basis that he's cheated in the past though.
On March 13 2017 20:24 SuperFanBoy wrote: Life needs to come back and save sc2 from it's death. Kespa trying to dictate who can play video games is insane. He should just give the middle finger to Kespa and just compete in foreign tournaments.
He's been punished for his crimes, now let him come back so we can enjoy watching some beautiful sc2.
And why would a foreign tournament organizer be interested in that? What would the sponsors do? Just let it happen? Kespa is not trying to dictate who can play video games. There is money involved. Is that so hard to get?
Sponsors would love it because more viewers = more $. Currently sc2 teams are dying and sc2 sponsors are fleeing because of lack of viewers.
Look at CSGO - top players from NA are still playing to this day and have sponsors to their name after caught match fixing.. Outside of Korea, if you pay for your crimes you are taken back and accepted into society. This idea that he should suffer for the rest of his life is insane.
On March 13 2017 20:52 KOtical wrote: imo everyone who cheats in any way during professional games should get a lifetime ban on ANY professional esport game. i dont care if he plays casually, but i hope to not see him again in any esport event...
He didn't cheat to win his 10 major titles, that was pure skill, he didn't pay people off to win. He got caught match fixing in tournament with low payout, he has paid for his crimes and should now be allowed to be back.
Also, you being a German should appreciate second chances.
oh look it's the same argument again, "I liked this player so I'm going to pretend he didn't kill PL, didn't drive KeSPA away, didn't ruin the integrity of the competitive scene, didn't try to appeal without any success whatsover"
except this time it also comes with guilt tripping Germany for the 3rd reich
On March 13 2017 21:22 Ej_ wrote: oh look it's the same argument again, "I liked this player so I'm going to pretend he didn't kill PL, didn't drive KeSPA away, didn't ruin the integrity of the competitive scene, didn't try to appeal without any success whatsover"
except this time it also comes with guilt tripping Germany for the 3rd reich
I'm pretty sure that already happened at some point in this thread before. It's a great thread.
Also still ignoring that part where pardoning Life doesn't guarantee he has any interest in coming back.
On March 13 2017 20:24 SuperFanBoy wrote: Life needs to come back and save sc2 from it's death. Kespa trying to dictate who can play video games is insane. He should just give the middle finger to Kespa and just compete in foreign tournaments.
He's been punished for his crimes, now let him come back so we can enjoy watching some beautiful sc2.
And why would a foreign tournament organizer be interested in that? What would the sponsors do? Just let it happen? Kespa is not trying to dictate who can play video games. There is money involved. Is that so hard to get?
Sponsors would love it because more viewers = more $. Currently sc2 teams are dying and sc2 sponsors are fleeing because of lack of viewers.
Look at CSGO - top players from NA are still playing to this day and have sponsors to their name after caught match fixing.. Outside of Korea, if you pay for your crimes you are taken back and accepted into society. This idea that he should suffer for the rest of his life is insane.
On March 13 2017 20:52 KOtical wrote: imo everyone who cheats in any way during professional games should get a lifetime ban on ANY professional esport game. i dont care if he plays casually, but i hope to not see him again in any esport event...
He didn't cheat to win his 10 major titles, that was pure skill, he didn't pay people off to win. He got caught match fixing in tournament with low payout, he has paid for his crimes and should now be allowed to be back.
Also, you being a German should appreciate second chances.
such a bullshit, matchfixing is cheatin in another way and therefore im happy that i will never see him again in any esport scene! and dont talk to me about beeing german and second chances! first of all what people in germany did almost 70 years ago does have nothing to do with people that are now living here. secondly im an american citizen living in germany. and even if i were german the nazi shit still does have nothing to do with us... so please get your shit together and dont talk about things u dont know!
On March 13 2017 20:24 SuperFanBoy wrote: Life needs to come back and save sc2 from it's death. Kespa trying to dictate who can play video games is insane. He should just give the middle finger to Kespa and just compete in foreign tournaments.
He's been punished for his crimes, now let him come back so we can enjoy watching some beautiful sc2.
And why would a foreign tournament organizer be interested in that? What would the sponsors do? Just let it happen? Kespa is not trying to dictate who can play video games. There is money involved. Is that so hard to get?
Sponsors would love it because more viewers = more $. Currently sc2 teams are dying and sc2 sponsors are fleeing because of lack of viewers.
Look at CSGO - top players from NA are still playing to this day and have sponsors to their name after caught match fixing.. Outside of Korea, if you pay for your crimes you are taken back and accepted into society. This idea that he should suffer for the rest of his life is insane.
I did not know that bringing Life back would increase the viewer count that drastically? I am afraid that's not realistic. He caused a lot of dmg, but bringing him back will no erase that. I am not saying he is mainly responsible for the decline. Also, Life had to pay the price for his actions, I don't know what you count as suffering. It is up to him to make himself get accepted again, not the organizers, not the sponsors, not the viewers, not me. If you do thats fine.
On March 13 2017 21:22 Ej_ wrote: oh look it's the same argument again, "I liked this player so I'm going to pretend he didn't kill PL, didn't drive KeSPA away, didn't ruin the integrity of the competitive scene, didn't try to appeal without any success whatsover"
except this time it also comes with guilt tripping Germany for the 3rd reich
As discussed earlier in the thread, this could be a hyperbole; i.e the SBENU scandal being the actual nail in the coffin. However, everyone should be treated the same -- a bum should have the same sentence for a crime as a politician. In this case, a second chance (given they want it, are willing to apologize, or even be some sort of ambassadors for fair play) should be thinkable for the others, like bbyong, as well.
Also see NonY's post (#244), one of the best in this thread
On March 13 2017 21:22 Ej_ wrote: oh look it's the same argument again, "I liked this player so I'm going to pretend he didn't kill PL, didn't drive KeSPA away, didn't ruin the integrity of the competitive scene, didn't try to appeal without any success whatsover"
except this time it also comes with guilt tripping Germany for the 3rd reich
I never liked Life as a player. I just want him to play again. I don't think cheating is such a big deal that it deserves lifetime ban, 1 year ban is plenty enough.
On March 13 2017 21:22 Ej_ wrote: oh look it's the same argument again, "I liked this player so I'm going to pretend he didn't kill PL, didn't drive KeSPA away, didn't ruin the integrity of the competitive scene, didn't try to appeal without any success whatsover"
except this time it also comes with guilt tripping Germany for the 3rd reich
Amazing the audacity to blame an entire country for the wrong-doings of a political party, fucking ridiculous some people.
Anyways, there were plenty of reasons why KeSPA dissolved and PL died, Life wasn't the only reason. If we really look at the big picture the first match-fixing scandal in BW did a huge blow to PL, and PL barely hung on for a long time.
Other weird scandals/situations like Azubu and SBENU were also big problems, compounded with heavier competition in viewership alone (league obviously).
I'm not saying Life should be completely forgiven, but I'm also saying the dissolution of KeSPA and others is not solely his fault either.
On March 13 2017 21:22 Ej_ wrote: oh look it's the same argument again, "I liked this player so I'm going to pretend he didn't kill PL, didn't drive KeSPA away, didn't ruin the integrity of the competitive scene, didn't try to appeal without any success whatsover"
except this time it also comes with guilt tripping Germany for the 3rd reich
Life = Viewers = Sponsors = Teams
No Life = No Viewers = No Sponsors = No Teams
Banning him hurt the scene. The reason the game declined is because the superstars of the game are no longer around.. MVP, Nestea, Life, MC, Idra etc. It has nothing to do with "integrity", its all about the amount of viewers.
good to see many people are not drinking the social justice warrior self righteous koolaid though. i like the argument that life brought in viewers/sponsors/$$$. let's take it a step further. not only is throwing a game a completely victimless crime (except the loser who loses the game), it actually makes it more exciting since matchfixing means big money, big money means bigger audiences, means maybe starcraft 2 can resurrect (because its dead, any look at viewership numbers could tell you that). the fact that gambling is illegal in korea is idiotic, lets ban the ban on gambling ,and unban life. he did nothing wrong, hell he shouldve thrown the match against mvp and given the man another trophy to cement his legacy as king of wings
On March 13 2017 21:22 Ej_ wrote: oh look it's the same argument again, "I liked this player so I'm going to pretend he didn't kill PL, didn't drive KeSPA away, didn't ruin the integrity of the competitive scene, didn't try to appeal without any success whatsover"
except this time it also comes with guilt tripping Germany for the 3rd reich
Well it's not like he single-handily killed the korean scene. Yoda and B4 also got caught and if rumors are true there are much more matchfixers that didn't get caught. Life/Yoda/B4 were just the ones that got caught. To blame just Life for the state of the korean scene seems a little bit unfair.
There are alot of strange arguments in this thread:
The throwing CS:GO players: They are banned for life (huhuhu) by valve. They will never be able to play a valve sponsored event. All other big organisations, who want to work with valve togeather, ESL, FaceIT, Dreamhack, ELEAGUE and so on banned them too forever. The throwers (AZK, steel, dazed and swag from ex IBP were the most prominent ones) cant play compeitive CS:GO outside of real minor tournaments. All they can do is either switch games (like AZK plays overwatch for liquid) or stream CS:GO on twitch.
The life = viewers = sponsors = cool things: Sponsors sponsor esports not because they sell +3 telecom contracts with it, but because they do brand building. They want to be connected to the minds of the young esport followers, youthen their brand and get promotional material, people talking about them and looking modern. What is the worst that can happen? Being linked to something corruptive, someone acting illegal by a crime that is heavily tabued in South Korea. Nobody wants to be connected to this. Life might mean 1000 viewers more, but he also means less sponsors, not more. Espeically esport sponsorships in non prime games are still mostly driven by passion of a few workers in the companies, not by numbers and ROI. These ones would pull away as fast as they can. Yeah, maybe Fanobet, b.win or fucking t.martin will start sponsoring CS:GO cups, but is that what you want? Just ask yourself how afreeca felt, when they swapped their player with KT to get life as a designated ace player... only that he gets arrested one day later by the police for matchfixing. I bet really fucking great for the continuity of their SC II team.
If he would be so good for your viewership and bring your sponsors, one of the one million smaller onlinecups that started to exist would have tried to invite him to play there. Tell my why this does not happen? Kespa is gone, these cups are not affilated to anything big in the scene.
Lifetime SC II esports ban compareable to head on a pike. This is so stupid that it makes me laugh everytime I read it. You people are acting like his sentence was 1000 years of prison and if he is not dead then, getting piked. His sentence was 2 years on probation, 80.000$ payment and the lifetime ban by Kespa, thats it. He is now free to do everything he wants, except playing professional Starcraft II. Its like saying a rotten Doctor, who's licence got removed by the gouvernment and is not allowed to treat patience in any way, would be getting put his head on a pike. Would you like to be treated by him? Or a teacher who is forbidden to teach at any school because of certain crimes, would you want him to teach your children in a school? A corrupt cop, who gets money to look away from the drug traffing in his reach, a crime without victim, gets removed of the duty forever, would you call for second chance? These people are all getting a second chance, just not in the branches they fucked up so massivly that its unreasonable to allow them to work there again. The rotten doctor, the to much in children interested teacher, the corrupt cop, the matchfixing esportler, nothing stops them to take their second chance and find a new job, a new life outside of the branches they misstreated like garbadge. Life has all the second chances in the world, he can enlist in the army, redo his missed education, find a job, a partner for a famliy, 99,9999% of his life are still open, just this tiny little spot, SC II esport, is closed for him.
But lets all be real here: You dont want a second chance for life, you want a blank check for him. Else there would be the 1 year since 4B was banned, 1 year since Yoda was banned threads. But they arent here, even tho their crimes could be watched with less harshness, as both of them had a forcing, misstreating element with their coach in this, while Life, at least as what is out in public, did it for pure money gain. You just want to see life back, nomatter what he has done, no matter what opportunities he now has everywhere else.
And now, bring up the past of my country to wipe away what I said, I am certainly 71 years old so I was part of it as a new born child.
Pep Guardiola was caught using doping as a player. If he had been banned for life we probably wouldn't have had the Barca of these years, a team that will be talked about for decades. I'm not sure if it was the right decision not to ban him for life. I dislike some of the things Guardiola does, like his support for Qatar.
However, when pushing for harsh punishments keep in mind that it could mean losing something significant. Life was one of the most promising players SC2 ever had and the loss of not having him anymore is severe.
On March 14 2017 20:58 Hildegard wrote: However, when pushing for harsh punishments keep in mind that it could mean losing something significant. Life was one of the most promising players SC2 ever had and the loss of not having him anymore is severe.
You can talk about the general punishment in case of a certain crime, but popularity should not be an argument to lower any punishment.
On March 14 2017 20:58 Hildegard wrote: Pep Guardiola was caught using doping as a player.
Guardiola was also cleared of his charges and declared not guilty years later which I don't think is going to happen with Life.
Also if he had been banned for life it would have likely been a ban as a player, not any other position. The referee Robert Hoyzer was banned for life from refereeing but he is allowed to be a player, manager, etc. So it's different from getting banned by KeSPA.
On March 14 2017 20:58 Hildegard wrote: However, when pushing for harsh punishments keep in mind that it could mean losing something significant. Life was one of the most promising players SC2 ever had and the loss of not having him anymore is severe.
You can talk about the general punishment in case of a certain crime, but popularity should not be an argument to lower any punishment.
I wasn't referring to popularity, sorry if that wasn't clear. I meant we don't know how he would have influenced the scene in the years to come.
On March 14 2017 20:58 Hildegard wrote: Pep Guardiola was caught using doping as a player.
Guardiola was also cleared of his charges and declared not guilty years later which I don't think is going to happen with Life.
Also if he had been banned for life it would have likely been a ban as a player, not any other position. The referee Robert Hoyzer was banned for life from refereeing but he is allowed to be a player, manager, etc. So it's different from getting banned by KeSPA.
I didn't know Guardiola was cleared. Good point. Is Life banned from being a coach or commentator as well or just as player?
On March 14 2017 20:58 Hildegard wrote: Pep Guardiola was caught using doping as a player.
Guardiola was also cleared of his charges and declared not guilty years later which I don't think is going to happen with Life.
Also if he had been banned for life it would have likely been a ban as a player, not any other position. The referee Robert Hoyzer was banned for life from refereeing but he is allowed to be a player, manager, etc. So it's different from getting banned by KeSPA.
I didn't know Guardiola was cleared. Good point. Is Life banned from being a coach or commentator as well or just as player?
I'm pretty sure he was banned in general. Taking Prime's headcoach for reference, who was also banned because of matchfixing. But I have no idea if KeSPA can actually ban people from commentating.
On March 14 2017 20:58 Hildegard wrote: However, when pushing for harsh punishments keep in mind that it could mean losing something significant. Life was one of the most promising players SC2 ever had and the loss of not having him anymore is severe.
You can talk about the general punishment in case of a certain crime, but popularity should not be an argument to lower any punishment.
It's not about popularity, it's about greatness - but maybe your mind is just too simple to appriciate such a thing.
On March 14 2017 20:58 Hildegard wrote: However, when pushing for harsh punishments keep in mind that it could mean losing something significant. Life was one of the most promising players SC2 ever had and the loss of not having him anymore is severe.
You can talk about the general punishment in case of a certain crime, but popularity should not be an argument to lower any punishment.
It's not about popularity, it's about greatness - but maybe your mind is just too simple to appriciate such a thing.
Don't start insulting. The same argument is applyable to talent, greatness, whatever you like. Just because someone is extraordinary at something doesn't mean he deserves special treatment. Talk about simple minds...
On March 14 2017 20:58 Hildegard wrote: However, when pushing for harsh punishments keep in mind that it could mean losing something significant. Life was one of the most promising players SC2 ever had and the loss of not having him anymore is severe.
You can talk about the general punishment in case of a certain crime, but popularity should not be an argument to lower any punishment.
It's not about popularity, it's about greatness - but maybe your mind is just too simple to appriciate such a thing.
Don't start insulting. The same argument is applyable to talent, greatness, whatever you like. Just because someone is extraordinary at something doesn't mean he deserves special treatment. Talk about simple minds...
You guys are misunderstanding the point. It's not about giving Life special treatment, it's about whether the treatment that we give to all of them is appropriate. I don't want Life allowed to come back because he's Life, I want him allowed to come back because I think he's been punished enough in relation to what he has done.
When people mention all of the things he could be doing in the community if he was allowed to come back, it's not because he's Life, it's because he's not there. Any of the banned players could be doing things if they were there.
On March 14 2017 20:58 Hildegard wrote: However, when pushing for harsh punishments keep in mind that it could mean losing something significant. Life was one of the most promising players SC2 ever had and the loss of not having him anymore is severe.
You can talk about the general punishment in case of a certain crime, but popularity should not be an argument to lower any punishment.
It's not about popularity, it's about greatness - but maybe your mind is just too simple to appriciate such a thing.
Don't start insulting. The same argument is applyable to talent, greatness, whatever you like. Just because someone is extraordinary at something doesn't mean he deserves special treatment. Talk about simple minds...
You guys are misunderstanding the point. It's not about giving Life special treatment, it's about whether the treatment that we give to all of them is appropriate. I don't want Life allowed to come back because he's Life, I want him allowed to come back because I think he's been punished enough in relation to what he has done.
When people mention all of the things he could be doing in the community if he was allowed to come back, it's not because he's Life, it's because he's not there. Any of the banned players could be doing things if they were there.
You maybe, but I'm pretty sure for most of the people it's exactly because he's Life. None of the other players got any threads dedicated to them.
On March 14 2017 20:58 Hildegard wrote: However, when pushing for harsh punishments keep in mind that it could mean losing something significant. Life was one of the most promising players SC2 ever had and the loss of not having him anymore is severe.
You can talk about the general punishment in case of a certain crime, but popularity should not be an argument to lower any punishment.
It's not about popularity, it's about greatness - but maybe your mind is just too simple to appriciate such a thing.
Don't start insulting. The same argument is applyable to talent, greatness, whatever you like. Just because someone is extraordinary at something doesn't mean he deserves special treatment. Talk about simple minds...
You guys are misunderstanding the point. It's not about giving Life special treatment, it's about whether the treatment that we give to all of them is appropriate. I don't want Life allowed to come back because he's Life, I want him allowed to come back because I think he's been punished enough in relation to what he has done.
When people mention all of the things he could be doing in the community if he was allowed to come back, it's not because he's Life, it's because he's not there. Any of the banned players could be doing things if they were there.
You maybe, but I'm pretty sure for most of the people it's exactly because he's Life. None of the other players got any threads dedicated to them.
Hildegard specifically mentioned that it wasn't about Life being popular so they are misunderstanding his point. And it makes sense that people would focus on the most famous name when they're defending a cause, that's going to get more attention. I'd have to see people specifically say they want Life to be allowed back but not BByong to accept that this is an actual argument.
On March 14 2017 20:58 Hildegard wrote: However, when pushing for harsh punishments keep in mind that it could mean losing something significant. Life was one of the most promising players SC2 ever had and the loss of not having him anymore is severe.
You can talk about the general punishment in case of a certain crime, but popularity should not be an argument to lower any punishment.
It's not about popularity, it's about greatness - but maybe your mind is just too simple to appriciate such a thing.
Don't start insulting. The same argument is applyable to talent, greatness, whatever you like. Just because someone is extraordinary at something doesn't mean he deserves special treatment. Talk about simple minds...
Personally, I dont think anyone deserves anything. It's simply a matter of weighting pros and cons; in this case: do we think the potential benefit of punishing Life to discourage other people from fixing matches outweight the loss of people not being able to witness potential inspired greatness from Life?
On March 14 2017 20:58 Hildegard wrote: However, when pushing for harsh punishments keep in mind that it could mean losing something significant. Life was one of the most promising players SC2 ever had and the loss of not having him anymore is severe.
You can talk about the general punishment in case of a certain crime, but popularity should not be an argument to lower any punishment.
It's not about popularity, it's about greatness - but maybe your mind is just too simple to appriciate such a thing.
Don't start insulting. The same argument is applyable to talent, greatness, whatever you like. Just because someone is extraordinary at something doesn't mean he deserves special treatment. Talk about simple minds...
You guys are misunderstanding the point. It's not about giving Life special treatment, it's about whether the treatment that we give to all of them is appropriate. I don't want Life allowed to come back because he's Life, I want him allowed to come back because I think he's been punished enough in relation to what he has done.
When people mention all of the things he could be doing in the community if he was allowed to come back, it's not because he's Life, it's because he's not there. Any of the banned players could be doing things if they were there.
You maybe, but I'm pretty sure for most of the people it's exactly because he's Life. None of the other players got any threads dedicated to them.
Hildegard specifically mentioned that it wasn't about Life being Life so they are misunderstanding his point. And it makes sense that people would focus on the most famous name when they're defending a cause, that's going to get more attention. I'd have to see people specifically say they want Life to be allowed back but not BByong to accept that this is an actual argument.
I'm not saying the other players are getting ignored because people don't want them to come back. I'm saying they're getting ignored because this topic is mostly brought up by people who only care about Life and don't give a singular shit about the others.
On March 14 2017 20:58 Hildegard wrote: However, when pushing for harsh punishments keep in mind that it could mean losing something significant. Life was one of the most promising players SC2 ever had and the loss of not having him anymore is severe.
You can talk about the general punishment in case of a certain crime, but popularity should not be an argument to lower any punishment.
It's not about popularity, it's about greatness - but maybe your mind is just too simple to appriciate such a thing.
Don't start insulting. The same argument is applyable to talent, greatness, whatever you like. Just because someone is extraordinary at something doesn't mean he deserves special treatment. Talk about simple minds...
You guys are misunderstanding the point. It's not about giving Life special treatment, it's about whether the treatment that we give to all of them is appropriate. I don't want Life allowed to come back because he's Life, I want him allowed to come back because I think he's been punished enough in relation to what he has done.
When people mention all of the things he could be doing in the community if he was allowed to come back, it's not because he's Life, it's because he's not there. Any of the banned players could be doing things if they were there.
You maybe, but I'm pretty sure for most of the people it's exactly because he's Life. None of the other players got any threads dedicated to them.
Hildegard specifically mentioned that it wasn't about Life being Life so they are misunderstanding his point. And it makes sense that people would focus on the most famous name when they're defending a cause, that's going to get more attention. I'd have to see people specifically say they want Life to be allowed back but not BByong to accept that this is an actual argument.
I'm not saying the other players are getting ignored because people don't want them to come back. I'm saying they're getting ignored because this topic is mostly brought up by people who only care about Life and don't give a singular shit about the others.
And as long as they don't oppose the others coming back, even if they don't care, that's a defensible position. As opposed to wanting Life to get special treatment because he's popular, which is not a defensible position.
On March 14 2017 20:58 Hildegard wrote: However, when pushing for harsh punishments keep in mind that it could mean losing something significant. Life was one of the most promising players SC2 ever had and the loss of not having him anymore is severe.
You can talk about the general punishment in case of a certain crime, but popularity should not be an argument to lower any punishment.
It's not about popularity, it's about greatness - but maybe your mind is just too simple to appriciate such a thing.
Don't start insulting. The same argument is applyable to talent, greatness, whatever you like. Just because someone is extraordinary at something doesn't mean he deserves special treatment. Talk about simple minds...
You guys are misunderstanding the point. It's not about giving Life special treatment, it's about whether the treatment that we give to all of them is appropriate. I don't want Life allowed to come back because he's Life, I want him allowed to come back because I think he's been punished enough in relation to what he has done.
When people mention all of the things he could be doing in the community if he was allowed to come back, it's not because he's Life, it's because he's not there. Any of the banned players could be doing things if they were there.
I don't think so. Not at all. There have been more players, but this thread is dedicated to Life. Tell me why?
On March 14 2017 20:58 Hildegard wrote: However, when pushing for harsh punishments keep in mind that it could mean losing something significant. Life was one of the most promising players SC2 ever had and the loss of not having him anymore is severe.
You can talk about the general punishment in case of a certain crime, but popularity should not be an argument to lower any punishment.
It's not about popularity, it's about greatness - but maybe your mind is just too simple to appriciate such a thing.
Don't start insulting. The same argument is applyable to talent, greatness, whatever you like. Just because someone is extraordinary at something doesn't mean he deserves special treatment. Talk about simple minds...
Personally, I dont think anyone deserves anything. It's simply a matter of weighting pros and cons; in this case: do we think the potential benefit of punishing Life to discourage other people from fixing matches outweight the loss of people not being able to witness potential inspired greatness from Life?
A crime is a crime and has punishments. Thinking about benefits and drawbacks, if it doesn't inlcude literal human lifes, is very questionable.
I simply wanted to point out that handing life-long sentences comes at a price for the SC2 community. Life is a good example of that because he was one of the most promising players SC2 ever had, meaning his loss will affect us more.
Please include the first sentence of this post, if you quote me.
On March 14 2017 20:58 Hildegard wrote: However, when pushing for harsh punishments keep in mind that it could mean losing something significant. Life was one of the most promising players SC2 ever had and the loss of not having him anymore is severe.
You can talk about the general punishment in case of a certain crime, but popularity should not be an argument to lower any punishment.
It's not about popularity, it's about greatness - but maybe your mind is just too simple to appriciate such a thing.
Don't start insulting. The same argument is applyable to talent, greatness, whatever you like. Just because someone is extraordinary at something doesn't mean he deserves special treatment. Talk about simple minds...
You guys are misunderstanding the point. It's not about giving Life special treatment, it's about whether the treatment that we give to all of them is appropriate. I don't want Life allowed to come back because he's Life, I want him allowed to come back because I think he's been punished enough in relation to what he has done.
When people mention all of the things he could be doing in the community if he was allowed to come back, it's not because he's Life, it's because he's not there. Any of the banned players could be doing things if they were there.
I don't think so. Not at all. There have been more players, but this thread is dedicated to Life. Tell me why?
Because he's more famous, and issues tend to revolve around more famous people easier than they do around less famous people. But you already knew that, so I'm not sure what you're attempting to do.
On March 14 2017 20:58 Hildegard wrote: However, when pushing for harsh punishments keep in mind that it could mean losing something significant. Life was one of the most promising players SC2 ever had and the loss of not having him anymore is severe.
You can talk about the general punishment in case of a certain crime, but popularity should not be an argument to lower any punishment.
It's not about popularity, it's about greatness - but maybe your mind is just too simple to appriciate such a thing.
Don't start insulting. The same argument is applyable to talent, greatness, whatever you like. Just because someone is extraordinary at something doesn't mean he deserves special treatment. Talk about simple minds...
You guys are misunderstanding the point. It's not about giving Life special treatment, it's about whether the treatment that we give to all of them is appropriate. I don't want Life allowed to come back because he's Life, I want him allowed to come back because I think he's been punished enough in relation to what he has done.
When people mention all of the things he could be doing in the community if he was allowed to come back, it's not because he's Life, it's because he's not there. Any of the banned players could be doing things if they were there.
I don't think so. Not at all. There have been more players, but this thread is dedicated to Life. Tell me why?
Because he's more famous, and issues tend to revolve around more famous people easier than they do around less famous people. But you already knew that, so I'm not sure what you're attempting to do.
Ofc and that's the point. Don't tell me ppl that try to defend Life cared much about players in similar situations. If they did, if they had such principles, they'd start "fighting" before Life's case, not now.
On March 14 2017 20:58 Hildegard wrote: However, when pushing for harsh punishments keep in mind that it could mean losing something significant. Life was one of the most promising players SC2 ever had and the loss of not having him anymore is severe.
You can talk about the general punishment in case of a certain crime, but popularity should not be an argument to lower any punishment.
It's not about popularity, it's about greatness - but maybe your mind is just too simple to appriciate such a thing.
Don't start insulting. The same argument is applyable to talent, greatness, whatever you like. Just because someone is extraordinary at something doesn't mean he deserves special treatment. Talk about simple minds...
You guys are misunderstanding the point. It's not about giving Life special treatment, it's about whether the treatment that we give to all of them is appropriate. I don't want Life allowed to come back because he's Life, I want him allowed to come back because I think he's been punished enough in relation to what he has done.
When people mention all of the things he could be doing in the community if he was allowed to come back, it's not because he's Life, it's because he's not there. Any of the banned players could be doing things if they were there.
I don't think so. Not at all. There have been more players, but this thread is dedicated to Life. Tell me why?
Because he's more famous, and issues tend to revolve around more famous people easier than they do around less famous people. But you already knew that, so I'm not sure what you're attempting to do.
Ofc and that's the point. Don't tell me ppl that try to defend Life cared much about players in similar situations. If they did, if they had such principles, they'd start "fighting" before Life's case, not now.
Your argument was that they wanted to lower the punishment because he's popular. You're now saying that they care about the issue because he's popular. Please be aware of what you're arguing.
It's not like he's been sentenced to death. He's just banned from playing a video game at a competitive level. Why would we need leniency on that?
For every "viewer" who would come back to see Life play, you'd also have viewers who would just leave because the pro scene has no legitimacy. No forgiveness. I'm ready to let SC2 die completely if it means not letting these scum match fixers play again for money.
There are people that still want to let Life come back to the scene?!
We might as well let Savior come back, then...no? I think both players were phenomenal. Why not, then?
The Korean scene has had enough...no tournament will ever let a match fixing player play again!~ This is how it must be, - from one there are five, 10, 20...Match fixing destroys the integrity of the entire scene and everything that the spirit of competitive SC stands for. It shits on the spirit of competition. It should not be tolerated, in any form! And like it not, no matter how seductive it may seem, the final vector for matchfixing are the players themselves...
Whether or not players get payed enough, player treatment, the need for player unions, etc...Those are all good things to talk about. But suggesting that a player who matchfixed in the greatest SC2 tournament in the world be allowed to come back and play again? I'd hope that you have a moral standing such that you put your own personal desires below the integrity of the competitive scene you enjoy so much...
I loved Life. He was/is (who knows, he could still be on ladder for all I know) an absolutely incredible player who defied the odds. Dark is still struggling to fill his shoes. But I've accepted that he will never play another tournament again, and I agree that he should not be allowed to.
Matchfixing should never be tolerated. As long as tournament organizers have the power to do something about it, they will. That's how it should be.
On March 14 2017 20:58 Hildegard wrote: However, when pushing for harsh punishments keep in mind that it could mean losing something significant. Life was one of the most promising players SC2 ever had and the loss of not having him anymore is severe.
You can talk about the general punishment in case of a certain crime, but popularity should not be an argument to lower any punishment.
It's not about popularity, it's about greatness - but maybe your mind is just too simple to appriciate such a thing.
Don't start insulting. The same argument is applyable to talent, greatness, whatever you like. Just because someone is extraordinary at something doesn't mean he deserves special treatment. Talk about simple minds...
You guys are misunderstanding the point. It's not about giving Life special treatment, it's about whether the treatment that we give to all of them is appropriate. I don't want Life allowed to come back because he's Life, I want him allowed to come back because I think he's been punished enough in relation to what he has done.
When people mention all of the things he could be doing in the community if he was allowed to come back, it's not because he's Life, it's because he's not there. Any of the banned players could be doing things if they were there.
I don't think so. Not at all. There have been more players, but this thread is dedicated to Life. Tell me why?
Because he's more famous, and issues tend to revolve around more famous people easier than they do around less famous people. But you already knew that, so I'm not sure what you're attempting to do.
Ofc and that's the point. Don't tell me ppl that try to defend Life cared much about players in similar situations. If they did, if they had such principles, they'd start "fighting" before Life's case, not now.
Your argument was that they wanted to lower the punishment because he's popular. You're now saying that they care about the issue because he's popular. Please be aware of what you're arguing.
I don't see a problem, sry. The issue is to lower the punishment. TLDR for you: Treat everyone equally. Do not treat popular ppl differently.
On March 14 2017 20:58 Hildegard wrote: However, when pushing for harsh punishments keep in mind that it could mean losing something significant. Life was one of the most promising players SC2 ever had and the loss of not having him anymore is severe.
You can talk about the general punishment in case of a certain crime, but popularity should not be an argument to lower any punishment.
It's not about popularity, it's about greatness - but maybe your mind is just too simple to appriciate such a thing.
Don't start insulting. The same argument is applyable to talent, greatness, whatever you like. Just because someone is extraordinary at something doesn't mean he deserves special treatment. Talk about simple minds...
You guys are misunderstanding the point. It's not about giving Life special treatment, it's about whether the treatment that we give to all of them is appropriate. I don't want Life allowed to come back because he's Life, I want him allowed to come back because I think he's been punished enough in relation to what he has done.
When people mention all of the things he could be doing in the community if he was allowed to come back, it's not because he's Life, it's because he's not there. Any of the banned players could be doing things if they were there.
I don't think so. Not at all. There have been more players, but this thread is dedicated to Life. Tell me why?
Because he's more famous, and issues tend to revolve around more famous people easier than they do around less famous people. But you already knew that, so I'm not sure what you're attempting to do.
Ofc and that's the point. Don't tell me ppl that try to defend Life cared much about players in similar situations. If they did, if they had such principles, they'd start "fighting" before Life's case, not now.
Your argument was that they wanted to lower the punishment because he's popular. You're now saying that they care about the issue because he's popular. Please be aware of what you're arguing.
I don't see a problem, sry. The issue is to lower the punishment. TLDR for you: Treat everyone equally. Do not treat popular ppl differently.
You have not demonstrated that your opposition wants to treat popular people differently, which means you're arguing against a strawman, which is the problem that you should be seeing.
On March 14 2017 21:06 Phaenoman wrote: [quote] You can talk about the general punishment in case of a certain crime, but popularity should not be an argument to lower any punishment.
It's not about popularity, it's about greatness - but maybe your mind is just too simple to appriciate such a thing.
Don't start insulting. The same argument is applyable to talent, greatness, whatever you like. Just because someone is extraordinary at something doesn't mean he deserves special treatment. Talk about simple minds...
You guys are misunderstanding the point. It's not about giving Life special treatment, it's about whether the treatment that we give to all of them is appropriate. I don't want Life allowed to come back because he's Life, I want him allowed to come back because I think he's been punished enough in relation to what he has done.
When people mention all of the things he could be doing in the community if he was allowed to come back, it's not because he's Life, it's because he's not there. Any of the banned players could be doing things if they were there.
I don't think so. Not at all. There have been more players, but this thread is dedicated to Life. Tell me why?
Because he's more famous, and issues tend to revolve around more famous people easier than they do around less famous people. But you already knew that, so I'm not sure what you're attempting to do.
Ofc and that's the point. Don't tell me ppl that try to defend Life cared much about players in similar situations. If they did, if they had such principles, they'd start "fighting" before Life's case, not now.
Your argument was that they wanted to lower the punishment because he's popular. You're now saying that they care about the issue because he's popular. Please be aware of what you're arguing.
I don't see a problem, sry. The issue is to lower the punishment. TLDR for you: Treat everyone equally. Do not treat popular ppl differently.
You have not demonstrated that your opposition wants to treat popular people differently, which means you're arguing against a strawman, which is the problem that you should be seeing.
Ok so first the problem was that you didn't quite understand what the issue was, now you are telling me I need to demonstrate something? I am very certain you could follow my argumentation. If not, try reading again what I have written. I have no intention to repeat myself once again. You'll be fine.
On March 14 2017 22:01 SKNielsen1989 wrote: [quote] It's not about popularity, it's about greatness - but maybe your mind is just too simple to appriciate such a thing.
Don't start insulting. The same argument is applyable to talent, greatness, whatever you like. Just because someone is extraordinary at something doesn't mean he deserves special treatment. Talk about simple minds...
You guys are misunderstanding the point. It's not about giving Life special treatment, it's about whether the treatment that we give to all of them is appropriate. I don't want Life allowed to come back because he's Life, I want him allowed to come back because I think he's been punished enough in relation to what he has done.
When people mention all of the things he could be doing in the community if he was allowed to come back, it's not because he's Life, it's because he's not there. Any of the banned players could be doing things if they were there.
I don't think so. Not at all. There have been more players, but this thread is dedicated to Life. Tell me why?
Because he's more famous, and issues tend to revolve around more famous people easier than they do around less famous people. But you already knew that, so I'm not sure what you're attempting to do.
Ofc and that's the point. Don't tell me ppl that try to defend Life cared much about players in similar situations. If they did, if they had such principles, they'd start "fighting" before Life's case, not now.
Your argument was that they wanted to lower the punishment because he's popular. You're now saying that they care about the issue because he's popular. Please be aware of what you're arguing.
I don't see a problem, sry. The issue is to lower the punishment. TLDR for you: Treat everyone equally. Do not treat popular ppl differently.
You have not demonstrated that your opposition wants to treat popular people differently, which means you're arguing against a strawman, which is the problem that you should be seeing.
Ok so first the problem was that you didn't quite understand what the issue was, now you are telling me I need to demonstrate something? I am very certain you could follow my argumentation. If not, try reading again what I have written. I have no intention to repeat myself once again. You'll be fine.
I didn't understand what the issue was? When did that happen exactly?
A crime is a crime and has punishments. Thinking about benefits and drawbacks, if it doesn't inlcude literal human lifes, is very questionable.
What is and what is not deemed a crime is not set in stone; it is agreed upon continually - as is the case for what is deemed appropriate punishment.
Guess how societies, countries, communities etc agree upon what is deemed a crime and what is deemed appropriate punishment: that's right! By considering the benefits and drawbacks!!!!
A crime is a crime and has punishments. Thinking about benefits and drawbacks, if it doesn't inlcude literal human lifes, is very questionable.
What is and what is not deemed a crime is not set in stone; it is agreed upon continually - as is the case for what is deemed appropriate punishment.
Guess how societies, countries, communities etc agree upon what is deemed a crime and what is deemed appropriate punishment: that's right! By considering the benefits and drawbacks!!!!
You're right, that's why surgeons who commit murder shouldn't be prosecuted because they save hundreds of lives in a year, right? What's 1 lost life to 100 saved? Consider the benefits and drawbacks!
No. This is stupid. Violate the integrity of competition and get banned, it's that simple, no matter if you are a celebrity player or a low-rank practice partner.
A crime is a crime and has punishments. Thinking about benefits and drawbacks, if it doesn't inlcude literal human lifes, is very questionable.
What is and what is not deemed a crime is not set in stone; it is agreed upon continually - as is the case for what is deemed appropriate punishment.
Guess how societies, countries, communities etc agree upon what is deemed a crime and what is deemed appropriate punishment: that's right! By considering the benefits and drawbacks!!!!
You're right, that's why surgeons who commit murder shouldn't be prosecuted because they save hundreds of lives in a year, right? What's 1 lost life to 100 saved? Consider the benefits and drawbacks!
No. This is stupid. Violate the integrity of competition and get banned, it's that simple, no matter if you are a celebrity player or a low-rank practice partner.
Oh god another simple minded moron appears. Im done here. You guys are too dumb.
A crime is a crime and has punishments. Thinking about benefits and drawbacks, if it doesn't inlcude literal human lifes, is very questionable.
What is and what is not deemed a crime is not set in stone; it is agreed upon continually - as is the case for what is deemed appropriate punishment.
Guess how societies, countries, communities etc agree upon what is deemed a crime and what is deemed appropriate punishment: that's right! By considering the benefits and drawbacks!!!!
You're right, that's why surgeons who commit murder shouldn't be prosecuted because they save hundreds of lives in a year, right? What's 1 lost life to 100 saved? Consider the benefits and drawbacks!
No. This is stupid. Violate the integrity of competition and get banned, it's that simple, no matter if you are a celebrity player or a low-rank practice partner.
Again, it's not about who does the crime. It's your fundamental misunderstanding of that that leads you to create this analogy where someone who is more useful than someone else gets to be punished less under a "benefit and drawback" logic. That's not what is being discussed, but the benefit and the drawback of punishment x as it is applied to people as a whole.
A crime is a crime and has punishments. Thinking about benefits and drawbacks, if it doesn't inlcude literal human lifes, is very questionable.
What is and what is not deemed a crime is not set in stone; it is agreed upon continually - as is the case for what is deemed appropriate punishment.
Guess how societies, countries, communities etc agree upon what is deemed a crime and what is deemed appropriate punishment: that's right! By considering the benefits and drawbacks!!!!
You're right, that's why surgeons who commit murder shouldn't be prosecuted because they save hundreds of lives in a year, right? What's 1 lost life to 100 saved? Consider the benefits and drawbacks!
No. This is stupid. Violate the integrity of competition and get banned, it's that simple, no matter if you are a celebrity player or a low-rank practice partner.
Oh god another simple minded moron appears. Im done here. You guys are too dumb.
A crime is a crime and has punishments. Thinking about benefits and drawbacks, if it doesn't inlcude literal human lifes, is very questionable.
What is and what is not deemed a crime is not set in stone; it is agreed upon continually - as is the case for what is deemed appropriate punishment.
Guess how societies, countries, communities etc agree upon what is deemed a crime and what is deemed appropriate punishment: that's right! By considering the benefits and drawbacks!!!!
You're right, that's why surgeons who commit murder shouldn't be prosecuted because they save hundreds of lives in a year, right? What's 1 lost life to 100 saved? Consider the benefits and drawbacks!
No. This is stupid. Violate the integrity of competition and get banned, it's that simple, no matter if you are a celebrity player or a low-rank practice partner.
Again, it's not about who does the crime. It's your fundamental misunderstanding of that that leads you to create this analogy where someone who is more useful than someone else gets to be punished less under a "benefit and drawback" logic. That's not what is being discussed, but the benefit and the drawback of punishment x as it is applied to people as a whole.
A crime is a crime and has punishments. Thinking about benefits and drawbacks, if it doesn't inlcude literal human lifes, is very questionable.
What is and what is not deemed a crime is not set in stone; it is agreed upon continually - as is the case for what is deemed appropriate punishment.
Guess how societies, countries, communities etc agree upon what is deemed a crime and what is deemed appropriate punishment: that's right! By considering the benefits and drawbacks!!!!
You're right, that's why surgeons who commit murder shouldn't be prosecuted because they save hundreds of lives in a year, right? What's 1 lost life to 100 saved? Consider the benefits and drawbacks!
No. This is stupid. Violate the integrity of competition and get banned, it's that simple, no matter if you are a celebrity player or a low-rank practice partner.
Oh god another simple minded moron appears. Im done here. You guys are too dumb.
Please never do that.
The only reason we're having this discussion at all is because it happened to Life. It's even in the title of the thread. How can you pretend that the "who" is not* a driving factor in this conversation?
Anyway, I'll humor your perspective.
Pros: upholds the traditions of the scene, legitimizes the scene by upholding standards of fair play, serves as a deterrent for future potential cheaters.
Cons: some Life fans are more upset about their player not being able to play anymore than they are about him defiling the sanctity of competitive spirit in the game they love, perhaps to the point of no longer watching it because they were a fan of a player more than anything else, which is a shallow allegiance to begin with.
A crime is a crime and has punishments. Thinking about benefits and drawbacks, if it doesn't inlcude literal human lifes, is very questionable.
What is and what is not deemed a crime is not set in stone; it is agreed upon continually - as is the case for what is deemed appropriate punishment.
Guess how societies, countries, communities etc agree upon what is deemed a crime and what is deemed appropriate punishment: that's right! By considering the benefits and drawbacks!!!!
You're right, that's why surgeons who commit murder shouldn't be prosecuted because they save hundreds of lives in a year, right? What's 1 lost life to 100 saved? Consider the benefits and drawbacks!
No. This is stupid. Violate the integrity of competition and get banned, it's that simple, no matter if you are a celebrity player or a low-rank practice partner.
Again, it's not about who does the crime. It's your fundamental misunderstanding of that that leads you to create this analogy where someone who is more useful than someone else gets to be punished less under a "benefit and drawback" logic. That's not what is being discussed, but the benefit and the drawback of punishment x as it is applied to people as a whole.
On March 15 2017 01:09 SKNielsen1989 wrote:
On March 15 2017 01:08 Jealous wrote:
On March 15 2017 00:58 SKNielsen1989 wrote:
A crime is a crime and has punishments. Thinking about benefits and drawbacks, if it doesn't inlcude literal human lifes, is very questionable.
What is and what is not deemed a crime is not set in stone; it is agreed upon continually - as is the case for what is deemed appropriate punishment.
Guess how societies, countries, communities etc agree upon what is deemed a crime and what is deemed appropriate punishment: that's right! By considering the benefits and drawbacks!!!!
You're right, that's why surgeons who commit murder shouldn't be prosecuted because they save hundreds of lives in a year, right? What's 1 lost life to 100 saved? Consider the benefits and drawbacks!
No. This is stupid. Violate the integrity of competition and get banned, it's that simple, no matter if you are a celebrity player or a low-rank practice partner.
Oh god another simple minded moron appears. Im done here. You guys are too dumb.
Please never do that.
The only reason we're having this discussion at all is because it happened to Life. It's even in the title of the thread. How can you pretend that the "who" is a driving factor in this conversation?
Because (again) you are mistaking "caring because it's Life" for "thinking it should only apply to Life". "Thinking it should only apply to Life" is not a coherent position, as you've illustrated very aptly with your surgeon example. "Caring because it's Life" is a coherent position: you think Life is good for the scene, so you question the interest of banning any player forever because they cheated once, as opposed to for another, less final, amount of time. You are pretending that the first position is the second because it helps you avoid the conversation by presenting an argument that is very easy to refute. It's convenient, but not very interesting.
A crime is a crime and has punishments. Thinking about benefits and drawbacks, if it doesn't inlcude literal human lifes, is very questionable.
What is and what is not deemed a crime is not set in stone; it is agreed upon continually - as is the case for what is deemed appropriate punishment.
Guess how societies, countries, communities etc agree upon what is deemed a crime and what is deemed appropriate punishment: that's right! By considering the benefits and drawbacks!!!!
You're right, that's why surgeons who commit murder shouldn't be prosecuted because they save hundreds of lives in a year, right? What's 1 lost life to 100 saved? Consider the benefits and drawbacks!
No. This is stupid. Violate the integrity of competition and get banned, it's that simple, no matter if you are a celebrity player or a low-rank practice partner.
Again, it's not about who does the crime. It's your fundamental misunderstanding of that that leads you to create this analogy where someone who is more useful than someone else gets to be punished less under a "benefit and drawback" logic. That's not what is being discussed, but the benefit and the drawback of punishment x as it is applied to people as a whole.
On March 15 2017 01:09 SKNielsen1989 wrote:
On March 15 2017 01:08 Jealous wrote:
On March 15 2017 00:58 SKNielsen1989 wrote:
A crime is a crime and has punishments. Thinking about benefits and drawbacks, if it doesn't inlcude literal human lifes, is very questionable.
What is and what is not deemed a crime is not set in stone; it is agreed upon continually - as is the case for what is deemed appropriate punishment.
Guess how societies, countries, communities etc agree upon what is deemed a crime and what is deemed appropriate punishment: that's right! By considering the benefits and drawbacks!!!!
You're right, that's why surgeons who commit murder shouldn't be prosecuted because they save hundreds of lives in a year, right? What's 1 lost life to 100 saved? Consider the benefits and drawbacks!
No. This is stupid. Violate the integrity of competition and get banned, it's that simple, no matter if you are a celebrity player or a low-rank practice partner.
Oh god another simple minded moron appears. Im done here. You guys are too dumb.
Please never do that.
The only reason we're having this discussion at all is because it happened to Life. It's even in the title of the thread. How can you pretend that the "who" is a driving factor in this conversation?
Because (again) you are mistaking "caring because it's Life" for "thinking it should only apply to Life". "Thinking it should only apply to Life" is not a coherent position, as you've illustrated very aptly with your surgeon example. "Caring because it's Life" is a coherent position: you think Life is good for the scene, so you question the interest of banning any player forever because they cheated once, as opposed to for another, less final, amount of time. You are pretending that the first position is the second because it helps you avoid the conversation by presenting an argument that is very easy to refute. It's convenient, but not very interesting.
But in the part of the quote that you cut out, I specifically addressed this? Just replace "Life" in the "Cons:" with *Insert Banned Cheater Here* and it will still be the same, albeit to a much smaller degree.
Punishment serves only 2 JUST purposes: Deterrence and Rehabilitation. Anything else is vindictive and cruel.
I think there's sufficient deterrence from match-fixing a timed ban, a fine, some time in jail, and a really bad reputation. Oh sure we could maximize deterrence even more than we already have if we say, non stop torture for 5 years and then kill anyone who match fixes but ... I think we all agree that is a terrible idea.
For the "special treatment for life"-argument: many people argued that a lifetime ban was to harsh back when the matchfixing of Yoda and B4 got revealed. The difference is not that Life has more advocates now, a year later, but that he almost had none when his case got revealed - probably because it was a bigger scandal because of his fame. Very few even thought about unbanning Life under the impression of the huge upset that Life's matchfixing was. Now everybody calmed down a bit and we can discuss questions that would've been inappropiate back then. So yes, Life gets special treatment - but not for his good.
My opinion on a comeback of Life (or any matchfixer) as expressed before: It shouldn't be easy to be allowed to play again after such an incident, but having no possible way of redemption for a player that truly regrets and is ready to give very much for this is nothing to be proud of as a community.
On March 15 2017 15:53 fronkschnonk wrote: For the "special treatment for life"-argument: many people argued that a lifetime ban was to harsh back when the matchfixing of Yoda and B4 got revealed. The difference is not that Life has more advocates now, a year later, but that he almost had none when his case got revealed - probably because it was a bigger scandal because of his fame. Very few even thought about unbanning Life under the impression of the huge upset that Life's matchfixing was. Now everybody calmed down a bit and we can discuss questions that would've been inappropiate back then. So yes, Life gets special treatment - but not for his good.
My opinion on a comeback of Life (or any matchfixer) as expressed before: It shouldn't be easy to be allowed to play again after such an incident, but having no possible way of redemption for a player that truly regrets and is ready to give very much for this is nothing to be proud of as a community.
Alright, that explains the foundation of this thread in a somewhat different light. There have always been vocal Life supporters though, or perhaps I simply remember them because they stood out from the crowd. Either way...
I don't know if we can conclusively agree on any of the attributions you hung on Life's shoulders.
a) How do we know he "truly regrets?" Logically, everyone regrets being in jail/on probation/whatever, but that does not necessarily mean they regret their actions - they regret getting caught. The fact that he filed an appeal, as others have noted, shows a certain lack of remorse and an attempt to "get away with it."
b) How do we know he is "ready to give very much for this?" A poster earlier said that some other pro said that Life doesn't even play anymore. So what would he be really giving for this? Of course, one person's speculation/word-of-mouth rumor isn't worth much, but you both have the burden of proof. He at least semi-cited a semi-verifiable source.
Sc2 needs Life more than Life needs sc2 right now. Sc2 needs a superstar that can dominate the scene to pull viewers and bring in sponsorship money. There is nobody in the scene right now that can do that, there is no player currently in the scene doing what Life and MVP did.
The top 2 zergs (Solar/Dark) are not even comparable to Life in his prime.
The pro scene right now is very lacklustre at the moment and sc2 is declining fast.
Let's hope blackjeff really is him and that he does make a come back.
On March 15 2017 17:51 SuperFanBoy wrote: Sc2 needs Life more than Life needs sc2 right now. Sc2 needs a superstar that can dominate the scene to pull viewers and bring in sponsorship money. There is nobody in the scene right now that can do that, there is no player currently in the scene doing what Life and MVP did.
The top 2 zergs (Solar/Dark) are not even comparable to Life in his prime.
The pro scene right now is very lacklustre at the moment and sc2 is declining fast.
That sets such a terrible precedent.
"Hey, our game is struggling because we lost star value. We know you did something shitty that negatively impacted the whole scene and you're still on probation for it, and you probably haven't been playing recently because we said you'd have no future in it and all, but whaddya say you come back? It'll look really good for sponsors. We're tryna make money lol."
Basically, if you're important enough to SC2, you can get away with whatever, the scene will take you back in about a year or so?
If SC2's success hinges on the unwarranted exculpation of a match-fixer that hasn't finished serving the time set forth by a court of law... That's not a good look fam.
Do any of you actually know the kind of life that progamers live? Do any of you realize Life's situation? Jesus Christ. My cousin's Kwanro, the pro from Brood War, and after talking with him, the life of a SC2 progamer is far from normal. You're literally taken as an elementary/middle school student, your formative years when your morals are still being shaped, placed in a hyper intensive environment, and grinded out for one thing. One of the things my cousin impressed on me was how different your average person is from your progamer especially from SC2. He even went so far as to say he was delusional as a progamer in that environment.
Life had no real proper upbringing with his parents, he was on marijuana, he had a gambling addiction, and no one was there to stop him or guide him. You think his coaches are going to say anything? No! They don't care as long as he keeps producing results and getting the sponsors so that they're getting paid especially in a game with a scene that's slowly dying. Besides, coaches aren't parents and most coaches are former pro players themselves and won't have had a proper upbringing themselves.
Is it Life's fault that he matchfixed? Sure the actual decision was made by him so he's at fault. But who's really at fault? The whole progaming system. That's like killing dogs brutalized by owners or putting shoplifters in jail for life. He'll have learned his lesson by now after coughing up ~$61,000 and facing jail.
My opinion? I'm not too sure about letting Life play again. That's a bad example and he probably shouldn't be let back. But ya'll calling for death, execution, life sentence in jail, blaming Life for killing off SC2, you guys are either extraordinarily delusional, severely lacking in empathy, using moral high ground to justify your own lack of comparable skill at the game, or saying random shit without actually knowing anything about the lives or environment these guys are in.
A crime is a crime and has punishments. Thinking about benefits and drawbacks, if it doesn't inlcude literal human lifes, is very questionable.
What is and what is not deemed a crime is not set in stone; it is agreed upon continually - as is the case for what is deemed appropriate punishment.
Guess how societies, countries, communities etc agree upon what is deemed a crime and what is deemed appropriate punishment: that's right! By considering the benefits and drawbacks!!!!
You're right, that's why surgeons who commit murder shouldn't be prosecuted because they save hundreds of lives in a year, right? What's 1 lost life to 100 saved? Consider the benefits and drawbacks!
No. This is stupid. Violate the integrity of competition and get banned, it's that simple, no matter if you are a celebrity player or a low-rank practice partner.
Again, it's not about who does the crime. It's your fundamental misunderstanding of that that leads you to create this analogy where someone who is more useful than someone else gets to be punished less under a "benefit and drawback" logic. That's not what is being discussed, but the benefit and the drawback of punishment x as it is applied to people as a whole.
On March 15 2017 01:09 SKNielsen1989 wrote:
On March 15 2017 01:08 Jealous wrote:
On March 15 2017 00:58 SKNielsen1989 wrote:
A crime is a crime and has punishments. Thinking about benefits and drawbacks, if it doesn't inlcude literal human lifes, is very questionable.
What is and what is not deemed a crime is not set in stone; it is agreed upon continually - as is the case for what is deemed appropriate punishment.
Guess how societies, countries, communities etc agree upon what is deemed a crime and what is deemed appropriate punishment: that's right! By considering the benefits and drawbacks!!!!
You're right, that's why surgeons who commit murder shouldn't be prosecuted because they save hundreds of lives in a year, right? What's 1 lost life to 100 saved? Consider the benefits and drawbacks!
No. This is stupid. Violate the integrity of competition and get banned, it's that simple, no matter if you are a celebrity player or a low-rank practice partner.
Oh god another simple minded moron appears. Im done here. You guys are too dumb.
Please never do that.
The only reason we're having this discussion at all is because it happened to Life. It's even in the title of the thread. How can you pretend that the "who" is not* a driving factor in this conversation?
Anyway, I'll humor your perspective.
Pros: upholds the traditions of the scene, legitimizes the scene by upholding standards of fair play, serves as a deterrent for future potential cheaters.
Cons: some Life fans are more upset about their player not being able to play anymore than they are about him defiling the sanctity of competitive spirit in the game they love, perhaps to the point of no longer watching it because they were a fan of a player more than anything else, which is a shallow allegiance to begin with.
You can't deny the "who" part is also leading people to hate on Life even more. Anyone who's had their favorite pro lose to Life definitely hate the kid more. I remember when the matchfixing news first came out, while Life fans obviously claimed he would never do such a thing, I remember an equal share of posts saying ofc he was shady asf in X match because herO/Inno/other pro of course wouldn't lose to Life. Meanwhile your reasonable people essentially stated "innocent until proven guilty". And of course, once the argument that matchfixing meant you threw matches and not win them was made, those biased against Life immediately changed their arguments.
Edit2:
On March 15 2017 17:51 SuperFanBoy wrote: Sc2 needs Life more than Life needs sc2 right now. Sc2 needs a superstar that can dominate the scene to pull viewers and bring in sponsorship money. There is nobody in the scene right now that can do that, there is no player currently in the scene doing what Life and MVP did.
The top 2 zergs (Solar/Dark) are not even comparable to Life in his prime.
The pro scene right now is very lacklustre at the moment and sc2 is declining fast.
Let's hope blackjeff really is him and that he does make a come back.
Yeah and this is a pretty terrible argument. Life coming back will do absolutely nothing for the game. While Life fans might be happy, anti-Life people will be just as mad and maybe go so far as to leave the scene although those remaining are likely only the diehards.
Edit3: OP is clearly biased for Life but he isn't wrong. Discussion about matchfixing should be a thing. Sweeping it under the rug won't do anything. I really don't think Life should be let back though. There's nothing to come back to anyway and it's not like he's gonna save the scene by himself, and it's going to create unnecessary controversy. Life is Life. Dude was a natural and one of the GOATs but his time is past.
No one is denying that he was a great player, but you're not addressing any of the relevant arguments presented in this thread and are therefore contributing nothing. Although, given your handle, I can see why.
On March 15 2017 19:08 Jealous wrote: No one is denying that he was a great player, but you're not addressing any of the relevant arguments presented in this thread and are therefore contributing nothing. Although, given your handle, I can see why.
There are no relevant arguments in this thread or anywhere else cause there's nothing inherently better about one solution or the other, it's all about how you feel about punishment in general.
On March 15 2017 19:08 Jealous wrote: No one is denying that he was a great player, but you're not addressing any of the relevant arguments presented in this thread and are therefore contributing nothing. Although, given your handle, I can see why.
There are no relevant arguments in this thread or anywhere else cause there's nothing inherently better about one solution or the other, it's all about how you feel about punishment in general.
Except he didn't even address punishment in that last post, which is clearly the subject of the discussion, which is clearly avoidance and therefore doesn't contribute anything.
On March 15 2017 19:08 Jealous wrote: No one is denying that he was a great player, but you're not addressing any of the relevant arguments presented in this thread and are therefore contributing nothing. Although, given your handle, I can see why.
There are no relevant arguments in this thread or anywhere else cause there's nothing inherently better about one solution or the other, it's all about how you feel about punishment in general.
Except he didn't even address punishment in that last post, which is clearly the subject of the discussion, which is clearly avoidance and therefore doesn't contribute anything.
Hello? I clearly say Life basically got what he deserved and he shouldn't be given a second chance.
But yeah, the majority of my post was devoted to calling for some empathy, pointing out some hypocrisy, and saying how little people probably actually know about Life's position.
Also if you have personal beef with me, PM and keep it out of thread. idk who you are tho but you mention my "handle" like you know me. @_@
"It is about seeing the genius of Michael Jordan, Magnus Carlsen, Tiger Woods, Phil Ivey, or in extreme AlphaGo. — and in my view, Life belonged among them." just... no sorry.
he can play casually no problem, should just not be allowed back in any league, he could even stream, all the bad publicity would probably get him viewers anyway
On March 15 2017 05:33 Captainfail wrote: Punishment serves only 2 JUST purposes: Deterrence and Rehabilitation. Anything else is vindictive and cruel.
I think there's sufficient deterrence from match-fixing a timed ban, a fine, some time in jail, and a really bad reputation. Oh sure we could maximize deterrence even more than we already have if we say, non stop torture for 5 years and then kill anyone who match fixes but ... I think we all agree that is a terrible idea.
Again, "vindictive" and "cruel" are not 2 words you can use about a permanent ban from playing a video game for money. Society doesn't need Life to play that video game professionally. Life doesn't need to play that video game professionally. He's young, he can still do literally anything else. Nobody is suffering here. Pretty sure everyone has moved on except his fans.
On March 15 2017 22:39 PuckSama. wrote: "It is about seeing the genius of Michael Jordan, Magnus Carlsen, Tiger Woods, Phil Ivey, or in extreme AlphaGo. — and in my view, Life belonged among them." just... no sorry.
Haha that was just funny. Esports fans can get quite overappreciative of how competitive their game really is.
On March 15 2017 19:08 Jealous wrote: No one is denying that he was a great player, but you're not addressing any of the relevant arguments presented in this thread and are therefore contributing nothing. Although, given your handle, I can see why.
There are no relevant arguments in this thread or anywhere else cause there's nothing inherently better about one solution or the other, it's all about how you feel about punishment in general.
Except he didn't even address punishment in that last post, which is clearly the subject of the discussion, which is clearly avoidance and therefore doesn't contribute anything.
Hello? I clearly say Life basically got what he deserved and he shouldn't be given a second chance.
But yeah, the majority of my post was devoted to calling for some empathy, pointing out some hypocrisy, and saying how little people probably actually know about Life's position.
Also if you have personal beef with me, PM and keep it out of thread. idk who you are tho but you mention my "handle" like you know me. @_@
I wasn't talking about you lol. I was talking about the poster directly above my post? SuperFanBoy? Pls man.
For the "special treatment for life"-argument: many people argued that a lifetime ban was to harsh back when the matchfixing of Yoda and B4 got revealed. The difference is not that Life has more advocates now, a year later, but that he almost had none when his case got revealed - probably because it was a bigger scandal because of his fame. Very few even thought about unbanning Life under the impression of the huge upset that Life's matchfixing was. Now everybody calmed down a bit and we can discuss questions that would've been inappropiate back then. So yes, Life gets special treatment - but not for his good.
My opinion on a comeback of Life (or any matchfixer) as expressed before: It shouldn't be easy to be allowed to play again after such an incident, but having no possible way of redemption for a player that truly regrets and is ready to give very much for this is nothing to be proud of as a community.
Alright, that explains the foundation of this thread in a somewhat different light. There have always been vocal Life supporters though, or perhaps I simply remember them because they stood out from the crowd. Either way...
I don't know if we can conclusively agree on any of the attributions you hung on Life's shoulders.
a) How do we know he "truly regrets?" Logically, everyone regrets being in jail/on probation/whatever, but that does not necessarily mean they regret their actions - they regret getting caught. The fact that he filed an appeal, as others have noted, shows a certain lack of remorse and an attempt to "get away with it."
b) How do we know he is "ready to give very much for this?" A poster earlier said that some other pro said that Life doesn't even play anymore. So what would he be really giving for this? Of course, one person's speculation/word-of-mouth rumor isn't worth much, but you both have the burden of proof. He at least semi-cited a semi-verifiable source.
There has been vocal Life supporters. That's right. But they mostly defended Life as long as nothing was proven. So this was no discussion about "can he come back even if he matchfixed?" but about "can we punish him for something that's not proven yet?".
Of course we don't know if Life "truly regrets" and is "ready to give very much". It's about Life to show that attitude convincingly to the community - if he wants to. But the way the issue is handled right now, there is no way Life could achieve anything, so he won't do anything as long as we don't send at least a small signal of hope for him getting somehow accepted in the scene again. Just to express it figuratively: The way the matchfixers were dismissed in Korean media didn't only shut the door for life and others - it also locked the door, threw the key away and build a wall around the building with barbwire on top.
For the "special treatment for life"-argument: many people argued that a lifetime ban was to harsh back when the matchfixing of Yoda and B4 got revealed. The difference is not that Life has more advocates now, a year later, but that he almost had none when his case got revealed - probably because it was a bigger scandal because of his fame. Very few even thought about unbanning Life under the impression of the huge upset that Life's matchfixing was. Now everybody calmed down a bit and we can discuss questions that would've been inappropiate back then. So yes, Life gets special treatment - but not for his good.
My opinion on a comeback of Life (or any matchfixer) as expressed before: It shouldn't be easy to be allowed to play again after such an incident, but having no possible way of redemption for a player that truly regrets and is ready to give very much for this is nothing to be proud of as a community.
Alright, that explains the foundation of this thread in a somewhat different light. There have always been vocal Life supporters though, or perhaps I simply remember them because they stood out from the crowd. Either way...
I don't know if we can conclusively agree on any of the attributions you hung on Life's shoulders.
a) How do we know he "truly regrets?" Logically, everyone regrets being in jail/on probation/whatever, but that does not necessarily mean they regret their actions - they regret getting caught. The fact that he filed an appeal, as others have noted, shows a certain lack of remorse and an attempt to "get away with it."
b) How do we know he is "ready to give very much for this?" A poster earlier said that some other pro said that Life doesn't even play anymore. So what would he be really giving for this? Of course, one person's speculation/word-of-mouth rumor isn't worth much, but you both have the burden of proof. He at least semi-cited a semi-verifiable source.
There has been vocal Life supporters. That's right. But they mostly defended Life as long as nothing was proven. So this was no discussion about "can he come back even if he matchfixed?" but about "can we punish him for something that's not proven yet?".
Of course we don't know if Life "truly regrets" and is "ready to give very much". It's about Life to show that attitude convincingly to the community - if he wants to. But the way the issue is handled right now, there is no way Life could achieve anything, so he won't do anything as long as we don't send at least a small signal of hope for him getting somehow accepted in the scene again. Just to express it figuratively: The way the matchfixers were dismissed in Korean media didn't only shut the door for life and others - it also locked the door, threw the key away and build a wall around the building with barbwire on top.
Good, I say. Look at it this way - it happened years prior with Savior and co. exactly the same way. So he absolutely could not be ignorant of the consequences. If you are informed of the consequences and decide to commit the crime anyway, then I believe you fully deserve the punishment.
For the "special treatment for life"-argument: many people argued that a lifetime ban was to harsh back when the matchfixing of Yoda and B4 got revealed. The difference is not that Life has more advocates now, a year later, but that he almost had none when his case got revealed - probably because it was a bigger scandal because of his fame. Very few even thought about unbanning Life under the impression of the huge upset that Life's matchfixing was. Now everybody calmed down a bit and we can discuss questions that would've been inappropiate back then. So yes, Life gets special treatment - but not for his good.
My opinion on a comeback of Life (or any matchfixer) as expressed before: It shouldn't be easy to be allowed to play again after such an incident, but having no possible way of redemption for a player that truly regrets and is ready to give very much for this is nothing to be proud of as a community.
Alright, that explains the foundation of this thread in a somewhat different light. There have always been vocal Life supporters though, or perhaps I simply remember them because they stood out from the crowd. Either way...
I don't know if we can conclusively agree on any of the attributions you hung on Life's shoulders.
a) How do we know he "truly regrets?" Logically, everyone regrets being in jail/on probation/whatever, but that does not necessarily mean they regret their actions - they regret getting caught. The fact that he filed an appeal, as others have noted, shows a certain lack of remorse and an attempt to "get away with it."
b) How do we know he is "ready to give very much for this?" A poster earlier said that some other pro said that Life doesn't even play anymore. So what would he be really giving for this? Of course, one person's speculation/word-of-mouth rumor isn't worth much, but you both have the burden of proof. He at least semi-cited a semi-verifiable source.
There has been vocal Life supporters. That's right. But they mostly defended Life as long as nothing was proven. So this was no discussion about "can he come back even if he matchfixed?" but about "can we punish him for something that's not proven yet?".
Of course we don't know if Life "truly regrets" and is "ready to give very much". It's about Life to show that attitude convincingly to the community - if he wants to. But the way the issue is handled right now, there is no way Life could achieve anything, so he won't do anything as long as we don't send at least a small signal of hope for him getting somehow accepted in the scene again. Just to express it figuratively: The way the matchfixers were dismissed in Korean media didn't only shut the door for life and others - it also locked the door, threw the key away and build a wall around the building with barbwire on top.
If you are informed of the consequences and decide to commit the crime anyway, then I believe you fully deserve the punishment.
No matter the punishment? Because that's the interesting part here. I would say that almost nobody believes that Life (or any other player who did the same) doesn't deserve any punishment (even though i read some people say "it's just a videogame" ) But what about the actual punishment he got? This is obviously very subjective but imo also the only real interesting topic of discussion in this instance.
For the "special treatment for life"-argument: many people argued that a lifetime ban was to harsh back when the matchfixing of Yoda and B4 got revealed. The difference is not that Life has more advocates now, a year later, but that he almost had none when his case got revealed - probably because it was a bigger scandal because of his fame. Very few even thought about unbanning Life under the impression of the huge upset that Life's matchfixing was. Now everybody calmed down a bit and we can discuss questions that would've been inappropiate back then. So yes, Life gets special treatment - but not for his good.
My opinion on a comeback of Life (or any matchfixer) as expressed before: It shouldn't be easy to be allowed to play again after such an incident, but having no possible way of redemption for a player that truly regrets and is ready to give very much for this is nothing to be proud of as a community.
Alright, that explains the foundation of this thread in a somewhat different light. There have always been vocal Life supporters though, or perhaps I simply remember them because they stood out from the crowd. Either way...
I don't know if we can conclusively agree on any of the attributions you hung on Life's shoulders.
a) How do we know he "truly regrets?" Logically, everyone regrets being in jail/on probation/whatever, but that does not necessarily mean they regret their actions - they regret getting caught. The fact that he filed an appeal, as others have noted, shows a certain lack of remorse and an attempt to "get away with it."
b) How do we know he is "ready to give very much for this?" A poster earlier said that some other pro said that Life doesn't even play anymore. So what would he be really giving for this? Of course, one person's speculation/word-of-mouth rumor isn't worth much, but you both have the burden of proof. He at least semi-cited a semi-verifiable source.
There has been vocal Life supporters. That's right. But they mostly defended Life as long as nothing was proven. So this was no discussion about "can he come back even if he matchfixed?" but about "can we punish him for something that's not proven yet?".
Of course we don't know if Life "truly regrets" and is "ready to give very much". It's about Life to show that attitude convincingly to the community - if he wants to. But the way the issue is handled right now, there is no way Life could achieve anything, so he won't do anything as long as we don't send at least a small signal of hope for him getting somehow accepted in the scene again. Just to express it figuratively: The way the matchfixers were dismissed in Korean media didn't only shut the door for life and others - it also locked the door, threw the key away and build a wall around the building with barbwire on top.
If you are informed of the consequences and decide to commit the crime anyway, then I believe you fully deserve the punishment.
No matter the punishment? Because that's the interesting part here. I would say that almost nobody believes that Life (or any other player who did the same) doesn't deserve any punishment (even though i read some people say "it's just a videogame" ) But what about the actual punishment he got? This is obviously very subjective but imo also the only real interesting topic of discussion in this instance.
Why was the punishment given for match fixing not an issue for people until Life got punished?
He gave back the money he earned through illegal practices, got probation, and can't play SC2 for money anymore. OH NOOOESSSS HOW CRUEL.
For the "special treatment for life"-argument: many people argued that a lifetime ban was to harsh back when the matchfixing of Yoda and B4 got revealed. The difference is not that Life has more advocates now, a year later, but that he almost had none when his case got revealed - probably because it was a bigger scandal because of his fame. Very few even thought about unbanning Life under the impression of the huge upset that Life's matchfixing was. Now everybody calmed down a bit and we can discuss questions that would've been inappropiate back then. So yes, Life gets special treatment - but not for his good.
My opinion on a comeback of Life (or any matchfixer) as expressed before: It shouldn't be easy to be allowed to play again after such an incident, but having no possible way of redemption for a player that truly regrets and is ready to give very much for this is nothing to be proud of as a community.
Alright, that explains the foundation of this thread in a somewhat different light. There have always been vocal Life supporters though, or perhaps I simply remember them because they stood out from the crowd. Either way...
I don't know if we can conclusively agree on any of the attributions you hung on Life's shoulders.
a) How do we know he "truly regrets?" Logically, everyone regrets being in jail/on probation/whatever, but that does not necessarily mean they regret their actions - they regret getting caught. The fact that he filed an appeal, as others have noted, shows a certain lack of remorse and an attempt to "get away with it."
b) How do we know he is "ready to give very much for this?" A poster earlier said that some other pro said that Life doesn't even play anymore. So what would he be really giving for this? Of course, one person's speculation/word-of-mouth rumor isn't worth much, but you both have the burden of proof. He at least semi-cited a semi-verifiable source.
There has been vocal Life supporters. That's right. But they mostly defended Life as long as nothing was proven. So this was no discussion about "can he come back even if he matchfixed?" but about "can we punish him for something that's not proven yet?".
Of course we don't know if Life "truly regrets" and is "ready to give very much". It's about Life to show that attitude convincingly to the community - if he wants to. But the way the issue is handled right now, there is no way Life could achieve anything, so he won't do anything as long as we don't send at least a small signal of hope for him getting somehow accepted in the scene again. Just to express it figuratively: The way the matchfixers were dismissed in Korean media didn't only shut the door for life and others - it also locked the door, threw the key away and build a wall around the building with barbwire on top.
If you are informed of the consequences and decide to commit the crime anyway, then I believe you fully deserve the punishment.
No matter the punishment? Because that's the interesting part here. I would say that almost nobody believes that Life (or any other player who did the same) doesn't deserve any punishment (even though i read some people say "it's just a videogame" ) But what about the actual punishment he got? This is obviously very subjective but imo also the only real interesting topic of discussion in this instance.
Why was the punishment given for match fixing not an issue for people until Life got punished?
He gave back the money he earned through illegal practices, got probation, and can't play SC2 for money anymore. OH NOOOESSSS HOW CRUEL.
I am not interested in your question because it's basically irrelevant. I am sure there are savior fans who would say he deserves a second chance as well. Ofc the motivation to argue the case is higher if you care about the specific person. I think we still would agree that to whatever conclusion we come (about the punishment) it should be used consistently no matter if the player was savior, life, bbyong, whoever else (in general terms, ofc there is a difference in punishment because there is a difference in crime)
For the "special treatment for life"-argument: many people argued that a lifetime ban was to harsh back when the matchfixing of Yoda and B4 got revealed. The difference is not that Life has more advocates now, a year later, but that he almost had none when his case got revealed - probably because it was a bigger scandal because of his fame. Very few even thought about unbanning Life under the impression of the huge upset that Life's matchfixing was. Now everybody calmed down a bit and we can discuss questions that would've been inappropiate back then. So yes, Life gets special treatment - but not for his good.
My opinion on a comeback of Life (or any matchfixer) as expressed before: It shouldn't be easy to be allowed to play again after such an incident, but having no possible way of redemption for a player that truly regrets and is ready to give very much for this is nothing to be proud of as a community.
Alright, that explains the foundation of this thread in a somewhat different light. There have always been vocal Life supporters though, or perhaps I simply remember them because they stood out from the crowd. Either way...
I don't know if we can conclusively agree on any of the attributions you hung on Life's shoulders.
a) How do we know he "truly regrets?" Logically, everyone regrets being in jail/on probation/whatever, but that does not necessarily mean they regret their actions - they regret getting caught. The fact that he filed an appeal, as others have noted, shows a certain lack of remorse and an attempt to "get away with it."
b) How do we know he is "ready to give very much for this?" A poster earlier said that some other pro said that Life doesn't even play anymore. So what would he be really giving for this? Of course, one person's speculation/word-of-mouth rumor isn't worth much, but you both have the burden of proof. He at least semi-cited a semi-verifiable source.
There has been vocal Life supporters. That's right. But they mostly defended Life as long as nothing was proven. So this was no discussion about "can he come back even if he matchfixed?" but about "can we punish him for something that's not proven yet?".
Of course we don't know if Life "truly regrets" and is "ready to give very much". It's about Life to show that attitude convincingly to the community - if he wants to. But the way the issue is handled right now, there is no way Life could achieve anything, so he won't do anything as long as we don't send at least a small signal of hope for him getting somehow accepted in the scene again. Just to express it figuratively: The way the matchfixers were dismissed in Korean media didn't only shut the door for life and others - it also locked the door, threw the key away and build a wall around the building with barbwire on top.
Good, I say. Look at it this way - it happened years prior with Savior and co. exactly the same way. So he absolutely could not be ignorant of the consequences. If you are informed of the consequences and decide to commit the crime anyway, then I believe you fully deserve the punishment.
Being aware of consequences never stopped people from committing crime and still many of those people are deeply remorseful afterwards. Some immediately, some a few months, some a few years later. Some of them changed drastically because of it. Of course Life (and any other matchfixer) deserves a punishment. But I think, there also should be a "after the punishment" where someone has the chance to prove that he really changed.
And don't take me wrong. I highly doubt that any matchfixer we know will openly speak about his crime and his remorse or even try to help to stop matchfixing any time soon. We didn't even hear an apology. This also would be unlikely if the circumstances wouldn't be as hostile. Why is that so? Because doing that (exhibiting your feelings, publicly admitting your guilt, making yourself a target for anger) is way harder than quietly fading away to something new. That's why I think, we should break a small hole into our wall and add a doorphone to our door.
Guys, I'm not a big fan of forums, but I've got some things in my mind on that issue. First of all, I'm a big fan of Life, I see him as the best player in the world and I disagree with a lifetime ban. For me, it's similar to Armstrong (bicycle races champion) - he's the best even with some cheating done. So, my understanding is that he should be unbanned for now. Not sure that should be discussed with me, just wanted to point out personal position.
But to the point, I have one question. Why Life is banned permanently, and ByuN, who has been banned around 5 years ago for the same reason, is getting rewards from Blizzard's CEO and is allowed to play everything? Guys, who are convinced that Life should not play anymore - why ByuN is let to play? Cheers, Dmitry
Two very different context. One went to the court, the other was banned from participating in tournament by his team (in addition of being removed from the said tournament anyway). Life's ban comes from his matchfixing link with betting sites and underground people. Whereas Buyn's was from asking his -already qualified- opponent to give him a second chance in a BO3, with no betting, nor third party involved.
On June 01 2017 22:01 Regisko wrote: Guys, I'm not a big fan of forums, but I've got some things in my mind on that issue. First of all, I'm a big fan of Life, I see him as the best player in the world and I disagree with a lifetime ban. For me, it's similar to Armstrong (bicycle races champion) - he's the best even with some cheating done. So, my understanding is that he should be unbanned for now. Not sure that should be discussed with me, just wanted to point out personal position.
But to the point, I have one question. Why Life is banned permanently, and ByuN, who has been banned around 5 years ago for the same reason, is getting rewards from Blizzard's CEO and is allowed to play everything? Guys, who are convinced that Life should not play anymore - why ByuN is let to play? Cheers, Dmitry
I don't think Byun was ever criminally charged, for one.
On June 01 2017 22:01 Regisko wrote: Guys, I'm not a big fan of forums, but I've got some things in my mind on that issue. First of all, I'm a big fan of Life, I see him as the best player in the world and I disagree with a lifetime ban. For me, it's similar to Armstrong (bicycle races champion) - he's the best even with some cheating done. So, my understanding is that he should be unbanned for now. Not sure that should be discussed with me, just wanted to point out personal position.
But to the point, I have one question. Why Life is banned permanently, and ByuN, who has been banned around 5 years ago for the same reason, is getting rewards from Blizzard's CEO and is allowed to play everything? Guys, who are convinced that Life should not play anymore - why ByuN is let to play? Cheers, Dmitry
Lance Arsmtrong is the ultimate scumbag lmao. ''Cancer made me stronger so I won 7 Tours de France'' I dont think using him as an example as to why Life should be allowed to play again is useful.
But you are right that they are akin; because of their illegal actions they both took away lots of credibility from their respective disciplins.
I think the kid should absolutely get a 2nd chance, but it shouldnt be gaming.
lets not spark this discussion again, we all know that opinions are very split here with regard to that. it would be way more important to know if anyone here has any inside information or any means to contact life and ask him about what his plans are regarding sc2. because after all, life has been playing a shitton of sc2 again lately. he is playing daily basically. is he trying to get his form back to maybe start streaming? or maybe he found a way to participate in smaller tourneys/ leagues? maybe he got pardoned by blizzard and we just dont know it yet? because frankly, he is playing way too much for it being just for funzies.
On June 01 2017 22:01 Regisko wrote: Guys, I'm not a big fan of forums, but I've got some things in my mind on that issue. First of all, I'm a big fan of Life, I see him as the best player in the world and I disagree with a lifetime ban. For me, it's similar to Armstrong (bicycle races champion) - he's the best even with some cheating done. So, my understanding is that he should be unbanned for now. Not sure that should be discussed with me, just wanted to point out personal position.
But to the point, I have one question. Why Life is banned permanently, and ByuN, who has been banned around 5 years ago for the same reason, is getting rewards from Blizzard's CEO and is allowed to play everything? Guys, who are convinced that Life should not play anymore - why ByuN is let to play? Cheers, Dmitry
I don't think Byun was ever criminally charged, for one.
Byun was also what, 15? And not a big winner on the international scene. And byun wasnt paid for it. And byun and coca were friends on the same team. And it was **Correction** a weekly cup with a code A seed as a prize.
And both were punished for it by the league but since it wasn't illegal (no money was paid for the match fix) it didnt end up in court.
And kespa wasn't in charge of starcraft at the time it was simply a GOM league.
The Life situation was very very different from the Byun one. Byun was just him asking his friend to leave so he could play a game 3 to try and get into Code A.
Life was paid a lot of money to lose maps intentionally so that gamblers could win big - breaking the law not just tournament rules - and it was under the kespa framework.
On June 01 2017 22:01 Regisko wrote: Guys, I'm not a big fan of forums, but I've got some things in my mind on that issue. First of all, I'm a big fan of Life, I see him as the best player in the world and I disagree with a lifetime ban. For me, it's similar to Armstrong (bicycle races champion) - he's the best even with some cheating done. So, my understanding is that he should be unbanned for now. Not sure that should be discussed with me, just wanted to point out personal position.
But to the point, I have one question. Why Life is banned permanently, and ByuN, who has been banned around 5 years ago for the same reason, is getting rewards from Blizzard's CEO and is allowed to play everything? Guys, who are convinced that Life should not play anymore - why ByuN is let to play? Cheers, Dmitry
I don't think Byun was ever criminally charged, for one.
Byun was also what, 15? And not a big winner on the international scene. And byun wasnt paid for it. And byun and coca were friends on the same team. And it was a qualifier that coca was already qualified for (played for seeding).
And both were punished for it by the league but since it wasn't illegal (no money was paid for the match fix) it didnt end up in court.
And kespa wasn't in charge of starcraft at the time it was simply a GOM league.
The Life situation was very very different from the Byun one. Byun was just him asking his friend to leave so he could play a game 3 to try and get into Code A.
Life was paid a lot of money to lose maps intentionally so that gamblers could win big - breaking the law not just tournament rules - and it was under the kespa framework.
So thats why byun can play now, but life cant
Oh wow, well said. I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't be satisfied with those answers, even if they disagreed with it.
I'll echo what other has said: Match fixers have no place in e-sports. They've broke the trust that allowed them to compete.
Not like there hasn't been stories of people being allowed back from match fixing (see VP's Solo in dota 2), but I think that's harmful no matter how talented they are, even if you believe they will never throw a game again
He threw a match for 322 dollars in a very minor game (like many other match fixers), 322 is now synonymous with throwing a game, even though it's used very lightheartedly.
Solo got a year or so ban and was allowed back to compete. VP just got second at the last major dota tournament, so his situation is similar to Life's, other than him being Russian and not being as succesful then as he is now
On June 01 2017 23:30 Iplaythings wrote: I'll echo what other has said: Match fixers have no place in e-sports. They've broke the trust that allowed them to compete.
Not like there hasn't been stories of people being allowed back from match fixing (see VP's Solo in dota 2), but I think that's harmful no matter how talented they are, even if you believe they will never throw a game again
He threw a match for 322 dollars in a very minor game (like many other match fixers), 322 is now synonymous with throwing a game, even though it's used very lightheartedly.
Solo got a year or so ban and was allowed back to compete. VP just got second at the last major dota tournament, so his situation is similar to Life's, other than him being Russian and not being as succesful then as he is now
There's more to it than that. He was only banned from Starladder. Joindota honored the Starladder ban as well. He was never banned by Valve. What makes me mad about that situation is that Solo never had to suffer through that entire ban. I think they let him back after 3-4 months anyway.
On June 01 2017 23:33 Waxangel wrote: fuck, I told myself I would clear up the MASSIVE MISINFORMATION about the ByuN thing if it ever came up again, ugh
On June 01 2017 23:18 evolsiefil wrote: lets not spark this discussion again, we all know that opinions are very split here with regard to that. it would be way more important to know if anyone here has any inside information or any means to contact life and ask him about what his plans are regarding sc2. because after all, life has been playing a shitton of sc2 again lately. he is playing daily basically. is he trying to get his form back to maybe start streaming? or maybe he found a way to participate in smaller tourneys/ leagues? maybe he got pardoned by blizzard and we just dont know it yet? because frankly, he is playing way too much for it being just for funzies.
How do you know he's playing a lot, or at all even?
On June 01 2017 22:01 Regisko wrote: Guys, I'm not a big fan of forums, but I've got some things in my mind on that issue. First of all, I'm a big fan of Life, I see him as the best player in the world and I disagree with a lifetime ban. For me, it's similar to Armstrong (bicycle races champion) - he's the best even with some cheating done. So, my understanding is that he should be unbanned for now. Not sure that should be discussed with me, just wanted to point out personal position.
But to the point, I have one question. Why Life is banned permanently, and ByuN, who has been banned around 5 years ago for the same reason, is getting rewards from Blizzard's CEO and is allowed to play everything? Guys, who are convinced that Life should not play anymore - why ByuN is let to play? Cheers, Dmitry
I don't think Byun was ever criminally charged, for one.
Byun was also what, 15? And not a big winner on the international scene. And byun wasnt paid for it. And byun and coca were friends on the same team. And it was a qualifier that coca was already qualified for (played for seeding).
And both were punished for it by the league but since it wasn't illegal (no money was paid for the match fix) it didnt end up in court.
And kespa wasn't in charge of starcraft at the time it was simply a GOM league.
The Life situation was very very different from the Byun one. Byun was just him asking his friend to leave so he could play a game 3 to try and get into Code A.
Life was paid a lot of money to lose maps intentionally so that gamblers could win big - breaking the law not just tournament rules - and it was under the kespa framework.
So thats why byun can play now, but life cant
Oh wow, well said. I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't be satisfied with those answers, even if they disagreed with it.
Very well said indeed. But, in my world (filled with rainbows and ponies) fair play is 1 or 0. In case you were cheating, no matter how hard, you're a cheater. Laws, organizations, sums of money and age is just a wrapper for this 1 or 0. In case this specific amount of money was necessary to purchase a cure from cancer for his mother, will it change someone's opinion? I mean - wrapping around cheating can be a big changer - but that's morale, and morale is different for everyone.
On June 01 2017 23:33 Waxangel wrote: fuck, I told myself I would clear up the MASSIVE MISINFORMATION about the ByuN thing if it ever came up again, ugh
On June 01 2017 22:01 Regisko wrote: Guys, I'm not a big fan of forums, but I've got some things in my mind on that issue. First of all, I'm a big fan of Life, I see him as the best player in the world and I disagree with a lifetime ban. For me, it's similar to Armstrong (bicycle races champion) - he's the best even with some cheating done. So, my understanding is that he should be unbanned for now. Not sure that should be discussed with me, just wanted to point out personal position.
But to the point, I have one question. Why Life is banned permanently, and ByuN, who has been banned around 5 years ago for the same reason, is getting rewards from Blizzard's CEO and is allowed to play everything? Guys, who are convinced that Life should not play anymore - why ByuN is let to play? Cheers, Dmitry
I don't think Byun was ever criminally charged, for one.
Byun was also what, 15? And not a big winner on the international scene. And byun wasnt paid for it. And byun and coca were friends on the same team. And it was a qualifier that coca was already qualified for (played for seeding).
And both were punished for it by the league but since it wasn't illegal (no money was paid for the match fix) it didnt end up in court.
And kespa wasn't in charge of starcraft at the time it was simply a GOM league.
The Life situation was very very different from the Byun one. Byun was just him asking his friend to leave so he could play a game 3 to try and get into Code A.
Life was paid a lot of money to lose maps intentionally so that gamblers could win big - breaking the law not just tournament rules - and it was under the kespa framework.
So thats why byun can play now, but life cant
Oh wow, well said. I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't be satisfied with those answers, even if they disagreed with it.
Very well said indeed. But, in my world (filled with rainbows and ponies) fair play is 1 or 0. In case you were cheating, no matter how hard, you're a cheater. Laws, organizations, sums of money and age is just a wrapper for this 1 or 0. In case this specific amount of money was necessary to purchase a cure from cancer for his mother, will it change someone's opinion? I mean - wrapping around cheating can be a big changer - but that's morale, and morale is different for everyone.
If your first post wasn't a sufficient proof of trolling, this one is I guess :o. Nice try tho. However there should indeed be more information available on TL for the people that genuinely want to know what happened with ByuN.
On June 02 2017 06:18 Poopi wrote: However there should indeed be more information available on TL for the people that genuinely want to know what happened with ByuN.
FFS people let the man go already. This horse is a year dead and even Jesus only took 3 days. It's past time to move on.
I too was a huge fan of Life back in the day; he is still the best Zerg that has ever played SC2. Doesn't change the fact that he fucked up and he paid the price.
I wish Lee Seung Hyun the best wherever he is now. But Life is dead.
fuck, i never thought id' be rooting for koreans playing computer games, but when ipxzerg was guaranteed liquipoints I started noticing. Then savior started dominating like beastmode and he stole my heart.
When he lost to Bisu red flags were popping up, but the fuckin guy had throw matches. Thanks savior, i let my nerd guard down and your owned it.
This is for the guy who said get over it earlier, sometimes it's just not that easy.
On June 02 2017 07:44 pvsnp wrote: FFS people let the man go already. This horse is a year dead and even Jesus only took 3 days. It's past time to move on.
I too was a huge fan of Life back in the day; he is still the best Zerg that has ever played SC2. Doesn't change the fact that he fucked up and he paid the price.
I wish Lee Seung Hyun the best wherever he is now. But Life is dead.
On June 01 2017 22:01 Regisko wrote: Guys, I'm not a big fan of forums, but I've got some things in my mind on that issue. First of all, I'm a big fan of Life, I see him as the best player in the world and I disagree with a lifetime ban. For me, it's similar to Armstrong (bicycle races champion) - he's the best even with some cheating done. So, my understanding is that he should be unbanned for now. Not sure that should be discussed with me, just wanted to point out personal position.
But to the point, I have one question. Why Life is banned permanently, and ByuN, who has been banned around 5 years ago for the same reason, is getting rewards from Blizzard's CEO and is allowed to play everything? Guys, who are convinced that Life should not play anymore - why ByuN is let to play? Cheers, Dmitry
In what part of the world is Lance Armstrong seen as anything but a cheat? He is stripped of all his glory, and hated by everyone in the community. He is absolutely nothing but a fraud.
On topic: I dont think there should be any second chances for matchfixers. These scandals drag esports down, and harsh penalties will deter people from fixing in the future.
These discussions will get crazier if he reaches Rank 1 in the ladder. Of course, zero chance he will be back to play competitively but somehow, I'm yearning to see at least one or two of his ladder games every once in a while.
On June 02 2017 07:15 DSh1 wrote: The problem I have with Life's case is that it is complete nonsense to prohibit throwing a match.
the problem with throwing a match is that no one is going to pay to to play competitively ever again and you won't be allowed to play in competitive leagues anymore. other than that, its fine ofc. it's not like he was just laddering.
On June 01 2017 23:33 Waxangel wrote: fuck, I told myself I would clear up the MASSIVE MISINFORMATION about the ByuN thing if it ever came up again, ugh
brb working on it
I think we can all agree that it was Slayers' fault for sending all their terrans to MLG and Coca had no one to practice with except against ByuN in an online cup so they played an extra game for practice against the spirit of the competition and the rules. thanks a lot MMA
people were more mad at ByuN for abusing broken map against Nestea anyway with ramp block on the wrong map version without telling the referees in a later GSL anyway
if you want e-sports to be taken seriously, cheating/hacking and illegal gambling deserves a life ban. I don't care about your age/gender. This is how life is. If you are a convicted criminal you cant become a cop later in life either. You have to live with the consequences of your actions for the rest of your life because you cannot undo your "crime".
If this sounds bleak and harsh to you: good! So you can think about your actions next time before you do anything.
Rofl, the whole scene was under the influence of illegal bets, because the coach or some people arround because they put bookmakers in contact with the players.
And only one player takes the sanction for everyone. He dont deserves it, i dont think blizzard is that idiot to believe that's 100% Life fault.
+After its easy to put pressure on a player of that age by putting the sword over his head with blackmail
The reason for throwing a game be it a bribe or whatever. Why should it matter? I don't find it any different than any other reason. In the first place this should be legalized, then there would be less/no incentive for betting/bribing. It's just as stupid as the case where Naniwa was punished for a probe rush or at the olympics, where badminton players where punished for losing on purpose to get a different seeding for the playoffs. Morally speaking I don't find Life's actions more wrong than the people responsible for designing the system/rules. It is a system that favors a betting environment, difficult to guess why... .
I'm fine with life being arrested for gambling himself if that was illegal. But for me this is not a Starcraft related issue. Therefore the ban on playing SC2 is ridiculous (though there are reasons $$$, just not ethical ones). I don't understand the people hating on him.
My point is people have been successfully brainwashed to go nuts on the symptoms while being completely fine with the root of the problem.
On June 02 2017 13:19 DSh1 wrote: The reason for throwing a game be it a bribe or whatever. Why should it matter? I don't find it any different than any other reason. In the first place this should be legalized, then there would be less/no incentive for betting/bribing. It's just as stupid as the case where Naniwa was punished for a probe rush or at the olympics, where badminton players where punished for losing on purpose to get a different seeding for the playoffs. Morally speaking I don't find Life's actions more wrong than the people responsible for designing the system/rules. It is a system that favors a betting environment, difficult to guess why... .
I'm fine with life being arrested for gambling himself if that was illegal. But for me this is not a Starcraft related issue. Therefore the ban on playing SC2 is ridiculous (though there are reasons $$$, just not ethical ones). I don't understand the people hating on him.
It's a big deal. The whole point of a spectating a competitive scene is that the competitors are giving their best which gives us unpredictable results not the fixed one. It's kinda like the difference between a real event and a story of a fictional event made by a writer.
If we allow a matchfixer like Life back we might as well turn the entire sc2 esports scene into something similar to wrestling where everything has a fixed narrative(for simpler terms having fake competition). It's kinda a moot point
If we allow a matchfixer like Life back we might as well turn the entire sc2 esports scene into something similar to wrestling where everything has a fixed narrative(for simpler terms having fake competition). It's kinda a moot point
If we allow a matchfixer like Life back we might as well turn the entire sc2 esports scene into something similar to wrestling where everything has a fixed narrative(for simpler terms having fake competition). It's kinda a moot point
It was the case, the scene was corrupt
that's why i said the the whole thing would be a moot point if we let Life back in after the matchfixing (or accused matchfixing)
it's impossible to trust the results the competitors in a competitive scene if we let a matchfixer back into it
it's what makes sports/esports a thing but if it had fixed results it turns into a show instead of a competitive scene
On June 02 2017 13:19 DSh1 wrote: The reason for throwing a game be it a bribe or whatever. Why should it matter? I don't find it any different than any other reason. In the first place this should be legalized, then there would be less/no incentive for betting/bribing. It's just as stupid as the case where Naniwa was punished for a probe rush or at the olympics, where badminton players where punished for losing on purpose to get a different seeding for the playoffs. Morally speaking I don't find Life's actions more wrong than the people responsible for designing the system/rules. It is a system that favors a betting environment, difficult to guess why... .
I'm fine with life being arrested for gambling himself if that was illegal. But for me this is not a Starcraft related issue. Therefore the ban on playing SC2 is ridiculous (though there are reasons $$$, just not ethical ones). I don't understand the people hating on him.
It's a big deal. The whole point of a spectating a competitive scene is that the competitors are giving their best which gives us unpredictable results not the fixed one. It's kinda like the difference between a real event and a story of a fictional event made by a writer.
If we allow a matchfixer like Life back we might as well turn the entire sc2 esports scene into something similar to wrestling where everything has a fixed narrative(for simpler terms having fake competition). It's kinda a moot point
Gambling is one thing but matchfixing is another
As I said, if you legalize it so-called "match-fixing" there would be no incentive to do so. People don't just randomly pay players for losing because they have too much money and even if they did, this would be very rare.
Not allowing "match-fixing" is only a make-shift solution. It fixes a problem, that is artificially introduced by the rules in place. Instead, designing the rules in a way, that they don't create trouble in the first place, would be the smarter choice. This applies not only here. People invent weird complicated procedures to solve problems which they unnecessarily introduced beforehand instead of properly fixing their basis. In this case it's the not allowing to throw a game rule.
I understand where you are coming from, but I don't share your conclusions (e.g. Allowing life back, means turning SC2 into wrestling; or the assumption that competitors are always giving their best (that's a fallacy, what does "giving your best" mean anyway?)) I could go further into that, but that's not the point I want to make here.
I think what some people are trying to say here is we shouldn't just blindly be outraged at people for violating laws that aren't necessarily just, it is in the interest of those who are in power or those who believe it is to be the best for society.
If there are 3 people with you and all 3 people vote to steal your money, does that make it ethical? -No, just because they vote it to make it a law, doesn't make it just or the best policy to blindly follow (Ex. black slavery,etc). So likewise, just because a law is established of gambling being illegal or bribery,etc doesn't necessarily mean we should be outraged, it is simply whatever society collectively voted to be their morality compass. I am not arguing for or against gambling/bribery, this is not my point, but the point again is to think critically of why a law is justified, and should we actually be outraged?
I think people have the right to be upset or disappointed by Life's choices of course, but to have this judgmental attitude holier than thou is very hypocritical. Everyone makes mistakes, if you think you're too good of a citizen, you haven't seen enough of humanity and are naive, or too proud to admit your own failings that you may not have noticed. Whenever I get outraged at someone, I am humbled sometimes when I remember the things I have done. I'm not a trouble maker from societal standards but it takes some humility to realize how sinful you are as a human being, and to look at the plank in your own eye before only focusing on your brothers.
An argument against match fixing or losing on purpose is stupid. There's not a reliable way to police someone's intention of losing on purpose or just off his game. Just make the system in place to where it's more beneficial for people to win and you get people that actually care about winning than throwing away matches to get extra money. If you have an argument about bribery, I'd say the legal definition of a bribery is to offer/give an official or person in charge to influence their decisions, which doesn't fit the scenario we would have here. What we mean when we say bribery when it comes to games, is match fixing, so based on that definition, it's not a crime unless korean law has a different definition of bribery. So if Korea doesn't have a legal definition of bribery that fits this scenario, they are just prosecuting him due to the interest of e-sports, which again I'd argue isn't an ethical way to prosecute someone for a criminal charge just for your self-interest. You can go after him with a civil charge, but not a criminal one.
If this wasn't televised e-sports but something like carpentry then there'd be very good arguments for letting Life come back because his popularity wouldn't matter. But it's televised e-sports, the audience decides what they consider worth watching. His popularity is a huge consideration in this. From a business standpoint it seems irresponsible to let him back. Many people will not accept it, some might even boycott broadcasted matches. I think this would likely create too much of a negative atmosphere and hurt the progaming scene.
a similar incident also happened in cricket a few years ago where 3 pakistani players, including mohammad amir (who was 18 at the time), were convicted of spot-fixing.
mohammad amir was a prodigiously talented bowler, and interestingly enough, there were calls from both sides of the fence to either ban him for life or be lenient because he was so young and talented. in the end, he was banned for 5 years and now is back playing international cricket.
certainly draws parallels to this case, though i cannot imagine many people feel comfortable with him back playing.
Well the precedent for almost all matchfixing in sports and now esports goes back to the "Black Sox" scandal in 1919 when the Chicago White Sox threw the 1919 Baseball World Series to the Cincinnati Reds. Eight White Sox players were convicted of accepting bribes from notorious gambler/bootlegger Arnold Rothstein to throw the World Series and were subsequently banned from baseball for life.
This scandal in many ways became the template for how to deal with matchfixing and why bans are so harsh.
On June 02 2017 22:19 ChriS-X wrote: a similar incident also happened in cricket a few years ago where 3 pakistani players, including mohammad amir (who was 18 at the time), were convicted of spot-fixing.
mohammad amir was a prodigiously talented bowler, and interestingly enough, there were calls from both sides of the fence to either ban him for life or be lenient because he was so young and talented. in the end, he was banned for 5 years and now is back playing international cricket.
certainly draws parallels to this case, though i cannot imagine many people feel comfortable with him back playing.
One of the things I do like to point out for context is that there's been a match-fixing scandal in basically every single pro sport in Korea, not just StarCraft. From what I've gathered, the punishments are similarly harsh for traditional sports as it is in esports, with players receiving fines and suspended sentences from the courts, and lifetime bans from the sports associations. Although, it seems like a topic worth looking into in more detail, just to see where the small differences are. For instance, there was a thing in Korea baseball where players were offered lenient punishment if they came forward and confessed, not sure what came of that.
On June 02 2017 22:19 ChriS-X wrote: a similar incident also happened in cricket a few years ago where 3 pakistani players, including mohammad amir (who was 18 at the time), were convicted of spot-fixing.
mohammad amir was a prodigiously talented bowler, and interestingly enough, there were calls from both sides of the fence to either ban him for life or be lenient because he was so young and talented. in the end, he was banned for 5 years and now is back playing international cricket.
certainly draws parallels to this case, though i cannot imagine many people feel comfortable with him back playing.
One of the things I do like to point out for context is that there's been a match-fixing scandal in basically every single pro sport in Korea, not just StarCraft. From what I've gathered, the punishments are similarly harsh for traditional sports as it is in esports, with players receiving fines and suspended sentences from the courts, and lifetime bans from the sports associations. Although, it seems like a topic worth looking into in more detail, just to see where the small differences are. For instance, there was a thing in Korea baseball where players were offered lenient punishment if they came forward and confessed, not sure what came of that.
What I want to know the most is if the Koreans netizens are perplexed/outraged at foreigners wanting Life back
On June 02 2017 22:19 ChriS-X wrote: a similar incident also happened in cricket a few years ago where 3 pakistani players, including mohammad amir (who was 18 at the time), were convicted of spot-fixing.
mohammad amir was a prodigiously talented bowler, and interestingly enough, there were calls from both sides of the fence to either ban him for life or be lenient because he was so young and talented. in the end, he was banned for 5 years and now is back playing international cricket.
certainly draws parallels to this case, though i cannot imagine many people feel comfortable with him back playing.
One of the things I do like to point out for context is that there's been a match-fixing scandal in basically every single pro sport in Korea, not just StarCraft. From what I've gathered, the punishments are similarly harsh for traditional sports as it is in esports, with players receiving fines and suspended sentences from the courts, and lifetime bans from the sports associations. Although, it seems like a topic worth looking into in more detail, just to see where the small differences are. For instance, there was a thing in Korea baseball where players were offered lenient punishment if they came forward and confessed, not sure what came of that.
What I want to know the most is if the Koreans netizens are perplexed/outraged at foreigners wanting Life back
What i want to know the most is why nobody ever talks about the questionable circumstances in korean esports. Yes these guys are bad for doing what they did, but the whole situation in korea might be at fault there as well. Nobody ever brings this up though. Other than that, another bump for this thread, yay!
Such a shame that the scene lost a good player just because some fuckheads cant help themselves from betting instead of just enjoying the game for the game's sake.
I don't think Life coming back would do any good at this time and he kind of did act stupidly. Though I hope that maybe some day throwing games is legal.
I find it hilarious when people blame life's mistake for the fall of sc2 in kespa, and basically sc in korea untill people realized bw was still amazing and started playing that again, thank jesus.
the fall of SC in kespa was the removal of BW, the replacement of an unarguably unpopular game in korea and poor viewership. The scene is way smaller now, and most of us push aside our silly feelings and are here to watch good games. I just wish people were mature enough to do the same.
EPT
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