EPT1 year since Life has been arrested - Page 14
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Aceace
Turkey1305 Posts
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Ingvar
Russian Federation421 Posts
I fail to see how hard punishment is a solution. If anything, life-time bans stimulate matchfixing because if you done it once there is no coming back meaning you should get the most out of it before you get caught. The general idea is that certainty of punishment is more likely to deter crime than length but SC history doesn't look very good in this regard (I probably shouldn't continue this line of thought to avoid accusing players without evidence). I see tennis as a great comparable "real" sports for Starcraft 2 - an individual sport with various levels of tournaments around the world where significant money is required to participate in them and lower level players generally struggle to make the ends meet. It's been a year since the big journalist investigation about matchfixing in tennis when there was vague implications that even top-20 tennis players could have participated in it, a few days since a winner of junior grand slam was charged with matchfixing and I remember how in 2007 Djokovic (who was 3rd best player in the world at the time) told that he was offered to fix a match a year prior and Davydenko (who was 4th best player in the world at the time) was accused of intentionally losing a match. Despite all of this, tennis was and is still going strong while players receive various bans - some of them even return to playing after them. In short, in a world where Justin Gatlin can win a gold medal in Athens, serve 4 years for taking PEDs and win bronze in London and silver in Rio afterwards, I see no reason why Life couldn't (or shouldn't) come back to play SC2 competitively. | ||
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raff100
498 Posts
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Kerence
Sweden1817 Posts
On February 05 2017 20:47 fishjie wrote: yeah a bunch of people justifying a kid going to jail because he PLAYED VIDEO GAMES AND LOST ON PURPOSE. jail. life completely ruined. seriously who cares? let him keep playing video games. who cares if he throws them? his loss at the end of the day. whatever laws are there are so so dumb and idiotic it boggles the mind. same applies for real sports too. who cares if people throw the game on purpose. people lose all perspective. its just a game at the end of the day doesnt matter. entertainment and that's it. dont throw people in jail over it I am so tired of people posting stuff like "he went to jail for playing video games" or "It's just a game, how can you go to jail for that?" No, that is not what happened. He went to jail because he took money from organized gambling rings to throw his matches. Gambling is illegal in South Korea. Life broke the law by accepting illegal money to throw his games so he was punished by the law. I'm guessing the match fixing itself is probably also a crime, but I don't know anything about South Korean law. It's not like KeSPA took him to civil court with a lawsuit and that put him in jail (although they claimed they would do that to sue for damages), he was arrested by actual police and tried in a criminal court. And he was only in jail for two months while the investigation was ongoing and he was awaiting his sentence. After that he was fined and released with a suspended sentence. If you break the law you get punished, that's how the law works. You don't get a free pass from breaking the law by saying what you did didn't really matter. Now, you might argue that the sentence was to harsh and that's your personal opinion. Life even tried to appeal himself but it was dismissed. So unless there are any people in here who are experts on the South Korean justice system who can say otherwise, I'd say the sentence was just fine. | ||
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seopthi
395 Posts
If he was prosecuted for doing weed, you could also say that he was acting against the law; but the point I would make is that it would have been a victimless crime and he should not be prosecuted. Drugs are prohibited, but still omnipresent. The only consequence of banning drugs is that they are pricier, a lot of shadiness/violence is involved (because cannot use legal police) and some poor kids go to jail. Betting as such should not be a crime; you can sportsbet in many places in the world. In my country the main betting site includes CS/LoL, etc. Now, you can even bet on anything safely using bitcoin (i.e BetMoose) But prohibiting a victimless crime like this just creates all shady rings and mafia, the same way mafia arose during alcohol prohibition in the US or anywhere where drugs are prohibited. Matchfixing is a crime with a victim--and the main victim are bettors who lost due to him not playing as he would've otherwise--and he should have reprimanded them. In this post I just want to point out that whether he broke a law should not be as relevant as to what degree it is an immoral thing -- and these are not the same. (to finally fulfill godwin's law, in an extreme case you cannot blame ann frank for breaking a law) | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
Once you bring in "should," it becomes a question of morality, which is obviously very subjective. In this case, Koreans (via KeSPA) frown on betting and matchfixing to the extent that they issue lifetime bans. This is a well-known and widely accepted policy in professional Starcraft, and iirc has never had any exceptions. Life was an incredibly skilled player, but he was still a player like any other, and to make an exception for him would break the entire concept of blind justice. Whether or not KeSPA should have a lifetime ban policy is up to the Korean scene and its morals, not the morality of foreign fans. Yes, Life was amazing. No, he's not coming back. And as far as Korea is concerned, that's the way it should be so that's the way it is. | ||
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figq
12519 Posts
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Kerence
Sweden1817 Posts
On February 06 2017 06:08 seopthi wrote: Yes, but legality is not the question. Wrong things can be legal while good things illegal. If he was prosecuted for doing weed, you could also say that he was acting against the law; but the point I would make is that it would have been a victimless crime and he should not be prosecuted. Drugs are prohibited, but still omnipresent. The only consequence of banning drugs is that they are pricier, a lot of shadiness/violence is involved (because cannot use legal police) and some poor kids go to jail. Betting as such should not be a crime; you can sportsbet in many places in the world. In my country the main betting site includes CS/LoL, etc. Now, you can even bet on anything safely using bitcoin (i.e BetMoose) But prohibiting a victimless crime like this just creates all shady rings and mafia, the same way mafia arose during alcohol prohibition in the US or anywhere where drugs are prohibited. Matchfixing is a crime with a victim--and the main victim are bettors who lost due to him not playing as he would've otherwise--and he should have reprimanded them. In this post I just want to point out that whether he broke a law should not be as relevant as to what degree it is an immoral thing -- and these are not the same. (to finally fulfill godwin's law, in an extreme case you cannot blame ann frank for breaking a law) Is this a reply to me? Because I'm not arguing if what he did is good or bad or whether there are any victims. I'm not even commenting on the fact that KeSPA gave him a lifetime ban. And you can post your opinions about how gambling shouldn't be illegal all you want (I actually agree), but the fact is that right now in South Korea it's illegal so if you don't want to end up in court you probably shouldn't do it. I'm simply replying to all those people who say he was just playing a video game and that shouldn't land you in jail. But fact is he broke the law and ended up in jail for two months. So yes, legality is the question here. | ||
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Kong95
17 Posts
On February 06 2017 07:05 Kerence wrote: Is this a reply to me? Because I'm not arguing if what he did is good or bad or whether there are any victims. I'm not even commenting on the fact that KeSPA gave him a lifetime ban. And you can post your opinions about how gambling shouldn't be illegal all you want (I actually agree), but the fact is that right now in South Korea it's illegal so if you don't want to end up in court you probably shouldn't do it. I'm simply replying to all those people who say he was just playing a video game and that shouldn't land you in jail. But fact is he broke the law and ended up in jail for two months. So yes, legality is the question here. It's crazy if you think about it. Going to jail for playing a videogame. However if someone did the same with a sport people would say similiar. The law is the law:/ | ||
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evolsiefil
143 Posts
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blunderfulguy
United States1415 Posts
On February 06 2017 21:52 evolsiefil wrote: the thing is, he cant have disappeared from the face of the earth. someone must have means to get in contact with him right? i would love to hear from him. his side of the story. maybe an apology to the community. what he is doing right now and what his plans are for the future. does he still play sc2? does he plan to appeal to blizzard somewhere in the future for a return? i would be so happy if someone could get a hold of him and ask him these things. anyone from korea? or maybe zealously? Most likely anyone in Korea has gone with the "no forgiveness period" side of things, like a lot of people in here, or stays silent about their contact with them because their peers would reject them for talking to a criminal. | ||
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Vutalisk
United States680 Posts
He didn't apologize to the fans or the community nor asking Blizzard for a second chance (or at least not that I know of). The guy shows no remorse or an attempt to correct his mistakes and somehow people coming here fight for his own redemption? I actually don't understand. | ||
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evolsiefil
143 Posts
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raff100
498 Posts
On February 06 2017 21:52 evolsiefil wrote: the thing is, he cant have disappeared from the face of the earth. someone must have means to get in contact with him right? i would love to hear from him. his side of the story. maybe an apology to the community. what he is doing right now and what his plans are for the future. does he still play sc2? does he plan to appeal to blizzard somewhere in the future for a return? i would be so happy if someone could get a hold of him and ask him these things. anyone from korea? or maybe zealously? I agree 100% | ||
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kurosu_
France46 Posts
So... Indeed, any kind of new info? Not specifically these points, but just what he or BByong or the Prime guys (including MKP, although not accused/prosecuted/convicted) are up to now. I stopped looking from page 5 on, as these were rehashing of the same debates and discussions, which provides (to me) below 0.1% signal to noise ratio. | ||
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imp42
398 Posts
Let's try a more objective and quantifiable calculation of the damage. 1. he got 60'000$ for losing two games 2. illegal gambling organizations might have paid him 20%? (A number I pulled out of my hat, probably on the higher end) 3. This means betters got cheated out of 300'000$ (at least). Yes, he also affected viewer trust (honestly, only because his actions were discovered, else we would have never noticed). But the tangible damage to society is estimated to be somewhere north of 300'000$. | ||
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DwD
Sweden8621 Posts
I used to eat so much shit for wanting Savior to return. He did the exact same thing as Life did, rigged games and almost killed BW due to sponsors dropping out. It seems a big majority of sc2 fans at least wouldn't mind Life returning... And I agree with Life as well as Savior. They did shitty things no one can deny that but we are all humans and deserve second chances. | ||
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ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
On February 07 2017 00:24 DwD wrote: It's super interesting reading this thread as a big BW fan. Don't get me wrong I followed a lot of SC2 especially in the early days but it's declining more and more. I used to eat so much shit for wanting Savior to return. He did the exact same thing as Life did, rigged games and almost killed BW due to sponsors dropping out. It seems a big majority of sc2 fans at least wouldn't mind Life returning... And I agree with Life as well as Savior. They did shitty things no one can deny that but we are all humans and deserve second chances. Shitting all over the scene like they did does not mean they deserve second chances. They are entitled to nothing and deserve nothing but exile from the community. I would boycott any sc2 content and convince others to do so as well if they were to return. | ||
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Thalandros
Netherlands1151 Posts
On February 06 2017 23:08 Vutalisk wrote: I'm sorry for being cynical here but how this post going for 14 pages is just kind of beyond me. There are plenty of players out there who deserve the attention and passion that is shown in this post and no one seems to care. Wasting your time on a player who has no respect for his profession or his fans is simply idiotic to say at least. He didn't apologize to the fans or the community nor asking Blizzard for a second chance (or at least not that I know of). The guy shows no remorse or an attempt to correct his mistakes and somehow people coming here fight for his own redemption? I actually don't understand. Disagree. There's nobody in the scene that had as much going for him as Life did in terms of success in SC2 performance. He was consistent on a yearly basis when it mattered and always found a way to win even though it didn't seem possible. His way of controlling lings was just completely unlike any other player. He's the GOAT for me and will remain that until someone surpasses him. He was probably not given a chance to speak out when he got prosecuted, and I can see him feeling it's too late to say anything now, koreans being ashamed very easily and it being a way bigger deal over there than here. We also don't know the extent to which he was forced into doing so, we've heard of multiple occasions of these fixers forcing it from players through some way of extortion. I'd really love to hear from him, whatever he'd end up saying. | ||
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Vutalisk
United States680 Posts
On February 07 2017 01:49 Thalandros wrote: Disagree. There's nobody in the scene that had as much going for him as Life did in terms of success in SC2 performance. He was consistent on a yearly basis when it mattered and always found a way to win even though it didn't seem possible. His way of controlling lings was just completely unlike any other player. He's the GOAT for me and will remain that until someone surpasses him. He was probably not given a chance to speak out when he got prosecuted, and I can see him feeling it's too late to say anything now, koreans being ashamed very easily and it being a way bigger deal over there than here. We also don't know the extent to which he was forced into doing so, we've heard of multiple occasions of these fixers forcing it from players through some way of extortion. I'd really love to hear from him, whatever he'd end up saying. I never question his talent as I'm a fan of his lings style as well if that's what you are referencing to. His skills and talent are certainly impressive but a GOAT, that is debatable at the very least. Frankly, calling a guy, who match-fixed because of pure greed after already winning a ton of money, a GOAT is an insult for another players who work hard to earn a penny in this profession. I personally want to hear what he has to say to defend himself and tell his side of the story. However, I'm gonna be blunt here by saying that he was match-fixing out of greed and that's all it is. During his appeal process, he used his age as an excuse to reduce his sentence. If he was really threatened by some "mafia" like you guys claim it is to be the case, he would already use that reason. Frankly, I call BS on the whole he was forced into doing this because there was no evidence to back that at all. Last but not least, I'm Asian too and I understand the shame and the guilt that sometimes holding you back from speaking the truth out loud after time already passed by. However, if you feel like you want a closure and a chance for redemption and there is a concrete evidence to back you up, you will flight your heart out to have a chance to tell your story. He didn't do anything. Also, better late than never. He can always speak out and that is his own choosing. | ||
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