EPT1 year since Life has been arrested - Page 13
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Ziggy
South Korea2105 Posts
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Solar424
United States4001 Posts
On February 05 2017 04:10 Shield wrote: You've answered your own question then. You admit SC2 was already in decline. Life's match-fixing was just insult to injury. It's still Blizzard's fault that SC2 isn't doing better than now. It was in decline, but the teams were still committed to the scene. The matchfixing scandal probably hurt viewership in Korea more than in the West and made it no longer viable to finance the teams. Again, the massive conglomerates and telecom companies also probably didn't want to be involved in a scene where matchfixing was rampant. | ||
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
On February 05 2017 05:01 Solar424 wrote: It was in decline, but the teams were still committed to the scene. The matchfixing scandal probably hurt viewership in Korea more than in the West and made it no longer viable to finance the teams. Again, the massive conglomerates and telecom companies also probably didn't want to be involved in a scene where matchfixing was rampant. And the fact that it happened before didn't help | ||
NonY
8748 Posts
As for using harsh punishments as deterrents, I don't see how it applies to the player. Life is just one player among many, all of whom are possible instruments for the match fixers. A harsh punishment on the player himself may cause some players to defy the match fixers (hopefully without being harmed for defying them), but it will not make it impossible for the match fixers to convince or coerce some other players to do it anyway. A harsh deterrent is more effective when threatening the mastermind of the crime, not his pawns. And whether using deterrents is optimal at all is its own discussion. I don't think it's so clear that deterrents are a good solution and it's funny to hear people advocating for them while also not attempting to hide their emotional desire for a harsh punishment. It's clear that the concept of deterrents is the go-to rationalization of people who just want to see the criminal punished. They aren't really concerned about what's best for the criminal, for society, or even for themselves. When making a punishment to act as a deterrent, you are changing the risk vs reward consideration that the potential criminal is facing. Relatively light punishments are already tipping the scales in that equation enough that it's not worth the risk. People make irrational decisions. Certainly you might reach a punishment so harsh that it snaps a person back to their senses. I think in this case, a player is going to do it if they don't think they'll get caught. Or they'll do it if they're coerced. But the severity of the punishment isn't something that's carefully considered. The assumption that if you find the correct degree of harsh punishment then you can deter a bad behavior depends on the rationality of the agent. If they're not behaving rationally, it does nothing. I think one thing that should be adjusted so that we can move forward from incidents like this in a more optimal and pragmatic way, so that gets everyone as happy and productive as possible as soon as possible, is to adjust the public mindset. People crave revenge and want to see evil-doers punished. But if this wasn't the reaction of a large portion of the population every time someone does something bad, then we wouldn't have to worry about making things worse by defying the desires of these people, and businesses and sponsors wouldn't have to worry about public opinion holding them back. Bad behavior begins a chain reaction of more bad behavior. Some of that is influencing others to do similar things and some of that is provoking others to push back in the opposite direction. That push-back may feel righteous and comes with all kinds of reasoning, but the truth is that its roots are in the irrational part of the brain, making decisions without any consideration of what actions will create the best present and future. Things improve more slowly because a portion of the population stubbornly insists on "seeing justice done" and until they cool off or forget about it, the whole of society can't get back to flourishing. Don't be part of the problem. | ||
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seopthi
391 Posts
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
On February 05 2017 06:13 seopthi wrote: Thanks for the thoughtful comment NonY. First part reminded me how Lilbow gave up on BlizzCon I don't know what's so thoughtful about his comment. He defends a criminal. Yes, Life deserves a second chance. However, a quick check shows that athletes caught with doping get like 2 years ban at least. While this isn't the same offence, you want StarCraft 2 to be considered e-Sports, don't you? So, 1 year isn't enough. He should be banned for at least one more year. | ||
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stilt
France2749 Posts
Concerning his punishment, I think it is a bit too much (an one or two years ban should be ok considering the fact that the carrer of a pro gamer last for less time than a classic athlete at least on the mainstream sports) but that does not change the fact that we will never see him again in sc2, Korean society does not forgive easely those sort of acts. | ||
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Blardy
United States290 Posts
On February 05 2017 04:02 Solar424 wrote: CS:GO was already too big to fail by the time the matchfixing scandal happened, while Korean SC2 was hanging on by a thread. But I'm sure it's just a coincidence that all the Korean teams disbanded when their contracts ran out after the Life matchfixing was exposed. The CS:GO matchfixing was also just one instance, while in SC2 it was apparent that it was much more common, with some cases we'll probably never know about. So you'll basically saying that match fixing is still happening but you have no proof. In that case, the NFL is nothing but matchfixing but I have no proof, you need to just believe me. | ||
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[N3O]r3d33m3r
Germany673 Posts
Koreans are unforgiving when it comes to things like this. He does not deserve a 2nd chance. | ||
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Dumbledore
Sweden725 Posts
On February 05 2017 06:33 Shield wrote: I don't know what's so thoughtful about his comment. He defends a criminal. Yes, Life deserves a second chance. However, a quick check shows that athletes caught with doping get like 2 years ban at least. While this isn't the same offence, you want StarCraft 2 to be considered e-Sports, don't you? So, 1 year isn't enough. He should be banned for at least one more year. A sports career is usually far longer than an esports career though, for us a year is longer than 2 is for them. No one would hurt from Life being unbanned. | ||
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Solar424
United States4001 Posts
On February 05 2017 09:12 Blardy wrote: So you'll basically saying that match fixing is still happening but you have no proof. In that case, the NFL is nothing but matchfixing but I have no proof, you need to just believe me. Just use logic here: what are the chances that the 4 cases of matchfixing that we know about are the only ones that actually happened? Pretty damn low. There are probably some cases that fell threw the cracks or got dropped because there wasn't enough evidence. If Bbyong hadn't turned himself in would we have found out about him? We don't know. | ||
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blunderfulguy
United States1415 Posts
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BronzeKnee
United States5217 Posts
On February 05 2017 05:52 NonY wrote: ...If they're not behaving rationally, it does nothing. Criminals often commit what they do not only because of risk/reward, but because they believe they will not get caught as you stated. They believe they can control the risk, and therefore only the reward is present. Life may very well have thought he could get away with this, and thus believed there was no risk. Is that rational? Well, there are thousands, if not millions of criminals out there who haven't and won't get caught. Logic tells us they made a perfectly rational decision that benefited them. By definition, only dumb criminals get caught. Life was dumb. The issue with crime and punishment is that reforming criminals can be notoriously difficult and unreliable, and we don't want them on the streets like we don't want cheaters in games because they ruin the integrity of society and the game respectively. And once a person has cheated or committed a crime once, they are exponentially more likely to do it again. The recidivism rate in the United States is over 76%. A system without serious enough consequences also risks corruption. When police can be bought off, or players can be bought off the system is failing. Slapping people on the wrist is not the answer. Harsh punishments are necessary to ensure that crime doesn't pay. Singapore has serious consequences for drug trafficking (death penalty), and the result is one of the lowest rates of drug abuse in the world. Without drugs plaguing the streets, there is not the crime associated with it, nor the deaths from abuse. Addicts are given two chances to kick the habit before they are thrown in jail. Stiff punishments can work. Mexico is a mess because it doesn’t have serious enough consequences. It sounds harsh, but when someone is breaking into your home at night to steal things to sell for their addiction, it becomes real. It isn't an irrational part of my brain that wants them locked up it, it is the part of my brain that values physical safety for my family and myself. No one should live in fear that they will be harmed physically because of the actions of another, and before we get someone preaching about how we shouldn't we make decisions on crime and punishment based on fear, try telling that to a child who is crying because their home was broken into, and now can't sleep. That kind of thing should be prevented at any cost. Those who choose violence and intimidation as a path should be removed from society. The same could be done for offenses in gaming. A lifetime ban from competing would result in far less people cheating, and no repeat offenders. People use PEDs in sports because the reward is perhaps climbing further up the competitive ladder, becoming a champion, or maybe just staying on the team. The risk is usually just a short suspension (varies by sport). And that is why so many athletes decide to juice. We wouldn't get that if we had lifetime bans. | ||
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SuperFanBoy
New Zealand1068 Posts
On February 05 2017 10:18 [N3O]r3d33m3r wrote: You guys don't understand that he harmed the reputation of the scene... and thus brought down sc2 alot. Koreans are unforgiving when it comes to things like this. He does not deserve a 2nd chance. Sc2 was already dying before Life was caught match fixing. The game would be in the same situation, Life made no difference. The world gave Germany a second chance, why can't you give life a second chance? | ||
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Thouhastmail
Korea (North)876 Posts
On February 05 2017 17:37 SuperFanBoy wrote: The world gave Germany a second chance, Third, afaik. | ||
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ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
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fishjie
United States1519 Posts
On January 30 2017 07:38 Jerubaal wrote: You literally have a whole page of people telling you what damage he did. yeah a bunch of people justifying a kid going to jail because he PLAYED VIDEO GAMES AND LOST ON PURPOSE. jail. life completely ruined. seriously who cares? let him keep playing video games. who cares if he throws them? his loss at the end of the day. whatever laws are there are so so dumb and idiotic it boggles the mind. same applies for real sports too. who cares if people throw the game on purpose. people lose all perspective. its just a game at the end of the day doesnt matter. entertainment and that's it. dont throw people in jail over it | ||
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SKNielsen1989
174 Posts
On February 05 2017 19:28 ReachTheSky wrote: Life is not welcome in the sc2 community. There is no place for matchfixers, period. We should accept this and move on. Speak for yourself. I for one will always appreciate beautiful StarCraft no matter who happens to be playing it. | ||
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Aceace
Turkey1305 Posts
On January 30 2017 06:32 seopthi wrote: A year ago, Life has been arrested for match fixing. In his memory, let me add a comment in his defense. When the match fixing scandal happened, he was 19 and like most teenagers, he was probably stupid and unwise. The circumstances are unknown, i.e it is possible that the betting ring is organized by some sort of mafia and that he might have been threatened if he did not comply. Also, it is for example possible that he may be autistic and he might have not understood fully what has been happening. But generally, a teenager like this without school, with loads of money and spending, probably without much help (esp. KeSPA’s treatment) lacking this sort of moral compass is bound to happen. However, compared to someone like Lance Armstrong, the details about Life’s scandal are completely unknown. Everyone acts like nothing has happened and he has never existed. I’m pretty sure that since the incident he has never been mentioned in GSL/SSL/ProLeague. I think that only once Rotterdam mentioned him last Blizzcon. Of course while watching ESPN or whatever sports broadcasts, there is no shame of discussing something like this. Tl;dr: At least in Western culture, everyone should get a second chance. He did a wrong thing as a teenager under unknown circumstances and should be allowed to come out, explain what happened, apologize for it, and be an ambassador against shadiness that will still exist in any sport — as many players, previously banned for much worse things, have done in other sports. Firstly... This "He was only 19 years old" argument is bullshit. At least in "Western Culture" 19 years old peoples are voting in elections. That means a 19 years old teenager should have the mindset of adult and he/she has rights to decide what is right/what is wrong. Also this means he/she has to face consequences of his/her decisions. On February 05 2017 13:12 BronzeKnee wrote: Criminals often commit what they do not only because of risk/reward, but because they believe they will not get caught as you stated. They believe they can control the risk, and therefore only the reward is present. Life may very well have thought he could get away with this, and thus believed there was no risk. Secondly... As you can see I am Turk. And I'm used to be a journalist in mainstream sport media. (Unfortunately not anymore but thats another topic) Maybe you don't know but Turks and Russians are the dirtiest athletes in athletics. Russian doping scandal is different but i would like to talk about Turks. A lot of Turkish athletes decides use drugs for enchance their performance. Last year an investigation showed %60 of the athletes tried drugs OR thinked to use drugs. When they asked for "Why" they generally said "We were thinking we could get away from anti-doping. Even we get caught, we get our money and incident will be forgotten already" Life wasn't doping. But he did a crime against Starcraft community, especially at Korea. If you forgive him to be an "ambassador" against matchfixing, you also sending a message to other players, which is "You can matchfix, you don't get caught, even you get caught you 'can' be forgiven" No. This should not happen. Matchfixing does not destroy a sports popularity. (Actually it improves popularity after big scandal) But it destroys viewers trust. If you cannot rebuild viewers trust you'll realize people lose their interest after scandal hype over. Just look Lance Drugstrong then look UCI's reaction. Or Look IOC's reaction after Russian Drug scandal. They are trying to rebuild trust. (They may fail or they may succeed. Thats another topic) But if Kespa forgives Life this would be a big step to wrong direction. | ||
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
On February 05 2017 21:25 Aceace wrote: Firstly... This "He was only 19 years old" argument is bullshit. At least in "Western Culture" 19 years old peoples are voting in elections. That means a 19 years old teenager should have the mindset of adult and he/she has rights to decide what is right/what is wrong. Also this means he/she has to face consequences of his/her decisions. But not old enough to buy alcohol, so apparently they don't have the right to decide what's right/what's wrong. | ||
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