EPTHowever, I do think that matchfixing is something to be discouraged. Contrary to what seems to be popular belief around here, I think banning competitors who are found guilty of matchfixing from competition is not the best approach to discourage matchfixing. In an ideal world, competitors would refrain from matchfixing because they care only about greatness and glory; not money. In actuality, what would discourage matchfixing is "fans" not engaging in betting.
1 year since Life has been arrested - Page 10
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SKNielsen1989
174 Posts
However, I do think that matchfixing is something to be discouraged. Contrary to what seems to be popular belief around here, I think banning competitors who are found guilty of matchfixing from competition is not the best approach to discourage matchfixing. In an ideal world, competitors would refrain from matchfixing because they care only about greatness and glory; not money. In actuality, what would discourage matchfixing is "fans" not engaging in betting. | ||
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ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
On January 31 2017 14:50 SKNielsen1989 wrote: Had Life thrown an important game on purpose for filthy lucre, I would have been sad and disappointed because of the potential awesomeness that could have been. Would I fault Life for such a choice? No. As a competitor, Life owed, owes and will continue to owe absolutely nothing to anyone. He can feel like fooling around. He can plant manner-Hatcheries wherever he pleases. He can explode all his Banelings to taunt his opponent. He can Probe-rush. He can quit whenever he feels like it even if he is way ahead. He can be playing poorly because he slept poorly because he doesn't respect his opponent because he simply doesn't care etc etc. However, I do think that matchfixing is something to be discouraged. Contrary to what seems to be popular belief around here, I think banning competitors who are found guilty of matchfixing from competition is not the best approach to discourage matchfixing. In an ideal world, competitors would refrain from matchfixing because they care only about greatness and glory; not money. In actuality, what would discourage matchfixing is "fans" not engaging in betting. Placing the burden on fans not to bet on games is not going to solve the issue. The fans aren't throwing matches, the players were. The players are responsible for this, not the fans. Harsh punishment and permanent exile is the only way to make pro-gamers to think twice about this sort of conduct. It's a shame when a player is willing to sacrifice his integrity due to greed. | ||
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SKNielsen1989
174 Posts
On January 31 2017 14:57 ReachTheSky wrote: Placing the burden on fans not to bet on games is not going to solve the issue. The fans aren't throwing matches, the players were. The players are responsible for this, not the fans. Harsh punishment and permanent exile is the only way to make pro-gamers to think twice about this sort of conduct. It's a shame when a player is willing to sacrifice his integrity due to greed. You don't think fans love StarCraft enough to give up betting? | ||
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ParkB0m
12 Posts
On January 31 2017 14:57 ReachTheSky wrote: Placing the burden on fans not to bet on games is not going to solve the issue. The fans aren't throwing matches, the players were. The players are responsible for this, not the fans. Harsh punishment and permanent exile is the only way to make pro-gamers to think twice about this sort of conduct. It's a shame when a player is willing to sacrifice his integrity due to greed. is that why people keep doing it? because the harsh punishment makes them think twice? come on | ||
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ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
On January 31 2017 15:10 ParkB0m wrote: is that why people keep doing it? because the harsh punishment makes them think twice? come on Greed is why someone makes the choice in the first place. Once they are caught, they are exiled. Anyone who values their professional status won't matchfix. Why? Because if you don't, you'll get exiled and never be allowed back. This is how it is. Do it and get exiled because matchfixing in esports(or any sport) damages the integrity of competition. Unfortunately we have had some bad apples in the past, luckily those apples are no longer apart of the community(and will remain exiled). | ||
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docvoc
United States5491 Posts
I'm just gonna throw this one out there, even though what Life did was wrong, saying that at 19 he had a full grasp of what he was doing is specious. We know from science that people's brains are not fully developed until later, and the part that is last to develop regards consequences, punishments, and the like (correct me if I am wrong on this). I am not saying he should be let back in, but we know why Life did what he did, even if he might not have fully grasped the consequences of his actions in their totality. He needed money. He gave up his life to play the game, and the game was not paying his bills. That is the true issue here. Yes there are other matchfixers of note who did make "enough" money and match-fixed for monetary gain. I acknowledge that; however - and this is a big however - if you want to fix the problem, then there needs to be a sustainable method for paying these players living wages. Top players should absolutely know that the consequences of their actions by matchfixing will not lead to a net gain for them in the end. That only happens when we figure out how to create that scene. We can't expect people to dedicate their lives to a game for us if they are going to be dramatically underpaid for the time they put in, and even more so we can't expect them not to cut corners to make a buck if they are in that position. Again not saying he should be let back in. | ||
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Aiingel
243 Posts
I feel sorry for Life. There are some mistakes in life that you simply cannot make - because you can never recover from them. Unfortunately, when you're young, you might not have enough life experience to be able to judge the relative "wrongness" of various transgressions. When I was a kid, I understood that stealing was wrong, that lying was wrong, that slapping the neighbour's kid was wrong - but I couldn't really discern the degree of "wrongness" for each of those actions. It's because I wasn't able to project how far-reaching the consequences of each could be. I didn't have that perspective. I try to remember all that, and I remember the stupid mistakes I made when I was younger, and I'm thankful that none of them were irreversibly life-changing - BUT I'm well aware that those mistakes could have been devastating. I was simply lucky. I've had friends who ruined their lives because they were stupid and naive and in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong friends in a "perfect storm" situation. I could easily have been one of them. So I have sympathy for Life - but that's not the same as condoning his actions. He was a professional player and he knew full well that what he was doing was a crime. He might have been under a lot of pressure, he might have had a moment of weakness, it might have been a case of "it's just one freaking map, don't think so much about it", but at the end of the day he must have known that what he was doing was wrong. I don't think that he ever sat down and coolly analysed the consequences of what would happen if he ever got caught, and weighed the pros and cons, and then made a calculated decision to match-fix (I'm speculating of course, but anyone doing a cost-benefit analysis for Life would come to the conclusion that in no universe would the risk be worth his potential future earnings). So while I hope that the community will eventually forgive him, I do not agree that he should be allowed to compete again. That's because actions MUST have consequences, and you risk compromising some very sacred principles if you dilute those consequences. This is not just about Life, it's also about the rest of the esports world - his case must be held up as an example for deterrence. I do think it's very harsh, and I feel deep regret because I'm a huge SC2 fan and I personally want to see Life play again. But it's simply not right to allow him to compete again on equal footing as a professional with other professionals when he has undermined the very foundations of what it means to be a professional, and all the responsibility that being a representative of a sport entails. Still, though, I'd like to end by saying - let's be kind. Kindness is very underrated in today's world, especially on the internet, where words can be shockingly harsh and it's easy to be critical and judgemental when you're sitting in front of a keyboard. I try to imagine what it'd be like if I met Life face-to-face; or what it would be like for Life himself, trying to eke out a new life, trying to avoid questions such as "so what was your previous job? what did you do before this?" My far-fetched dream is that one day the community would be able to forgive him to the extent as to welcome him back as a casual player and watch him play a showmatch (WITH NO MONEY INVOLVED) - and genuinely cheer for him. Because, at the end of the day, it's about the game. | ||
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zyce
United States649 Posts
Organization and fairness of competition are absolutely essential to ensure both participation and viewership. Whatever his sentence through the judicial system, the eSports community must impose its own banishment on the player to prevent the game from falling into complete disrepute. None of this is worth it for a few more hypothetically, marginally-better games. | ||
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seopthi
393 Posts
If not, what makes SC different from other games/sports? | ||
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ParkB0m
12 Posts
On January 31 2017 18:10 seopthi wrote: Is the consensus that match fixing is worse than cheating? (i.e aim-botting or doping) If not, what makes SC different from other games/sports? It's much worse for the scene. Sponsors pull out. But the bizarre case of Life was there were a TON of rumors swelling around him about a gambling addiction. A former ZENEX coach was quoted as saying he watched Life lose 20k USD in one night. I remember a story about MC saying the same, as well. So it might not be an open/shut case on if it was straight matchfixing, which is where I think the majority of his defenders cite, myself included. | ||
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hiroshOne
Poland425 Posts
Life was MATCHFIXING. Period. I really don't think there's any worse a pro player can do. I loved Life since the beginning of his career, always cheering for him. Now, when i think that i was cheering for him and felt sorry for him to lose, and the truth was that he sold that match...I feel sick. There is no excuse for that. Life was selling his matches, because he had gambling debts. It wasn't anyone's fault, but his. He did it for money, nothing else. Stop defending him, even when it hurts. The story of Life is closed, just as SaviOr's. | ||
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SKNielsen1989
174 Posts
Reading through this thread reminds me of discussing matchfixing with my friends. I think my friends are reasonably reasonable about most things; they're well-educated for the most part graduating from good universities with good grades - and yet when it comes to discussing matchfixing, their opinions, thoughts and perspective are so uniformed and dumb. Good grief | ||
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muppet70
Sweden72 Posts
But it's also about trust and money. While I agree he should be allowed to play again any tournament organizer who allows him to play takes a risk which could impact sponsorship. You also risk a huge bandwagon of nerd rage. On the other hand it would probably create a lot of attention and will likely generate a lot of viewers. If he's also banned by Blizzard (I don't know if this is the case) then no organizer who have deals with Blizzard can allow him to play. On a tangent: Regarding similar cases there's match fixing and there's "not doing your best", for the viewer both are equally bad but match fixing is worse for the tournament organizer because you have influence on a tournament from an outside actor making profits that you don't get a cut of while at the same time causing negative press. | ||
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Skynx
Turkey7150 Posts
On January 31 2017 13:12 Vansetsu wrote: Everyone deserves forgiveness. Everyone. That guy who got warned however many pages back is completely right- The TL community is indeed full of arrogant people. Chock full of teenage bandwagoning, clickyness, and hive mind thinking. With the older and more experienced among them not doing the younger ones any favors. Every time I see Life or Savior brought up, people talk as if one them were the dark stranger who murdered their family and of course, ever-so-wounded, "they will NEVER" forgive them. What makes you all so entitled to think you should have any opinion at all as to what they should or should not do with their lives now? Entitled to how much (or really any) hate that should be given to them? The only thing you are entitled to is to feel hurt, if you were actually a fan. Disappointed. Let down. But to think your disappointment ever grants you a free pass to hate someone, or that your speculation or your baseless analogies grant you some sort of special understanding, is the very definition of arrogance. And dare I say ignorance. I honestly don't think about Life all that much. I browsed the thread out of curiosity as to what popular opinion currently was, and I am leaving disgusted. I hope that a good portion of you revisit your replies and your feelings here. Because if so many of you can so easily condemn these 2 (whom most of you have have only met through your internet browsers) like some fallen angels to prison and hell, as if you understood their circumstances and as if you were their arbiters, or as if anyone in this life deserves condemnation, then, I am saddened to think how you will treat others in the politics of your small lives. Seriously fellas you're better than this. All of you. I think this piece is a total horseshit. This should be removed from existance and thrown into dark abyss. That doesn't mean i hate you, but then again who am i to have opinions about others, shame on me. Life is not a fallen angel or anything. Life is a cheating pro player, and what he got is entirely on point: never practicr this sport at any stage ever. He can go shoot porn if he likes idc but if he plays one competitive game again then why do you care about watching starcraft at all since you know the might be fixed? | ||
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Skynx
Turkey7150 Posts
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SuperFanBoy
New Zealand1068 Posts
Life is the arguably the great Starcraft player of all time, possibly even greater than MVP. Give him another chance. | ||
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ParkB0m
12 Posts
On January 31 2017 18:30 hiroshOne wrote: The story of Life is closed, just as SaviOr's. Life is going to continue playing SC2 in China? Because that's what SaviOr did after being banned from KeSPA. | ||
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Zvoboo
Germany160 Posts
On January 31 2017 19:09 SKNielsen1989 wrote: How are you so narrow-minded? Reading through this thread reminds me of discussing matchfixing with my friends. I think my friends are reasonably reasonable about most things; they're well-educated for the most part graduating from good universities with good grades - and yet when it comes to discussing matchfixing, their opinions, thoughts and perspective are so uniformed and dumb. Good grief Good grief that they disagree what you think is correct, so uninformed and dumb by them.../s Life knew the rules (or should) and is paying the price accordingly. Match-fixing has no place in a competitive environment at all and perpetrators are rightfully punished heavily by organizers if caught (as they should). If the viewers can't trust that what they are seeing is an honest competition then they lose interest fast that ,down the line, loses organizers revenue, exposure and ultimately sponsors. | ||
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Tommy131313
Germany156 Posts
You trust an athlete, unless you have clear evidence, he/she is cheating, doping, matchfixing etc. Life lost his trustworthiness, therefore he can't compete in serious events, because "...you never know..." | ||
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reneg
United States859 Posts
On January 31 2017 15:00 SKNielsen1989 wrote: You don't think fans love StarCraft enough to give up betting? No, I think gambling is literally too addicting for many people to be able to get away with it. Look at lotteries and casinos, there is no shortage of people who are willing to give up everything to be able to have a chance at making some money, because gambling feels so good to them. | ||
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