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Life's actions have dealt a blow to the SC2 scene, so it's not a huge surprise to see so many people against him redeeming himself on the esports stage. I'm personally also not in favour of ever letting him play professionally again. Matchfixing is something which can never be allowed, and you need to send a strong signal that reflects this.
More importantly though, as some have pointed out: he was a kid who gained a lot of success and money at a young age and was probably insufficiently counseled on how to deal with this in a healthy way. The organizations that capitalized on his success are not free of blame. At 19 years old, you should be able to make ethical choices, but that's obviously not where the root of the problem lies. Mistakes were made in helping him at an earlier age, and the matchfixing scandal was a painful example of that. I just hope he can find a way to learn from his mistakes and find happiness in life.
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and now for something completely different:
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On January 30 2017 06:32 seopthi wrote:..., the most enjoyable part are seeing the most talented players. It is about seeing the genius of Michael Jordan, Magnus Carlsen, Tiger Woods, Phil Ivey, or in extreme AlphaGo. Slightly off-topic rant:+ Show Spoiler +As a go player I have to feel somewhat upset you chose the AI opponent here instead of any number of exciting people that play the game at a high level. What about the Lee Sedol vs Gu Li ten game match, or Iiyama Yuta holding all seven national titles simultaneously? Or if you want foreigner pride, why not root for Antti Tormanen, the first western player to turn pro in Japan in almost a decade. There have been some great events in recent years in go, but I can't understand why people get so worked up about an algorithm steadily improving to the point where it can consistently beat human players.
AlphaGo.
smh
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On January 30 2017 15:47 Voltz_sc21 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2017 15:27 BLinD-RawR wrote:On January 30 2017 15:21 Voltz_sc21 wrote:On January 30 2017 15:19 BLinD-RawR wrote:On January 30 2017 15:10 Voltz_sc21 wrote:
He's only banned from kespa IIRC. With kespa gone, nothing is really stopping him. He could come back whenever he is out of jail if he didn't mind the community backlash. except for the fact that nobody would want to play against him. How could you even know that? Have you asked pros? would you willingly work with someone who threatened you livelihood? this is just selfish behaviour and I question your commitment to a legitimate competition. I don't think that is a completely honest statement. This same guy who damaged the pro scene, is the same guy who brought it to new heights. Arguably, he was subject to addiction. Friends of his have gone on record saying he would lose tens of thousands of dollars a night at the oversea casinos. Since gambling is illegal in Korea, it is not impossible to believe that he lost a ton of money illegally betting in korea, and needed to pay up to some mean people. On top of the jail time and fines, he probably lost all of his friends. Who even knows if his family still talks to him. The shame he must carry, the public scrutiny, I think he has undergone enough punishment. I would welcome him back, though, I'm not sure he would want to come back. I wish him well~
We that's what you get for cheating and help to ruin the scene where everyone near him had a huge investment on. If he's being treated like a criminal or not, it's call that his friends and people around him make bc they know things better there. I wish life all the best as well but I also want him to be punished appropriately.
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Basically Life is partially responsible for people losing their jobs because of his greed. There is no spot for him in our community any more.
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No. If Life were to play again, every single time he played and lost, there would always be the question of whether he was match-fixing again. The amount of damage he and the match-fixing scandal has done to the scene should not be understated. He should never be allowed to compete again.
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Even if allowed to play (and im strongly against that) imagine how awkward it would be.
"Yeah Tasteless and here's our zerg player, best known for... ummm, yeah..".
Also, what would keep some players from matchfixing if you can throw games without consequences?
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On January 30 2017 23:09 SkrollK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2017 22:49 Skynx wrote:
Lol pls don't compare Life to Lance Armstrong. Might have missed it but none but you did that for the moment :p
Must have missed the op then :p :p
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Better welcome back Prime and Bbyong too then.
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if life was able to hire an equivalent of johnnie cochran as a lawyer, maybe things would have been different
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if only he hadn't done it in the first place. the damage is done, I have no interest in watching him play any game. If he's allowed to do it again, well why not, I don't care and I won't support him.
it's also unfair to start a #freeLife movement while disregarding other match fixers.
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United States23455 Posts
On January 31 2017 01:04 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2017 00:14 Darkhorse wrote:On January 30 2017 23:54 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On January 30 2017 22:30 Darkhorse wrote:On January 30 2017 22:10 digmouse wrote:On January 30 2017 22:08 evolsiefil wrote:On January 30 2017 22:03 quirinus wrote:
If a lawyer does something illegal, he can never be a lawyer again, and he'll be tried. Why should it be different for gamers? if a football player, a baseball player, a nba player etc does something illegal, most of the time they can come back after they served their sentence. why should it be different for gamers? Matchfixing in traditional sports mostly result in long bans as well. Yeah Pete Rose was banned from baseball for life for betting as an owner and he didn't even bet on his own games. Odd though how when you're found guilty of assault or domestic abuse you get suspended for two games lol Anyways, I was a huuuuuuuuuuuge fan of Life but I don't really want people adding to his "defense". Just let it go and forget about him. It's healthier for everyone. What he did was pretty terrible and SC2 has to completely move on from him. That includes the people I saw saying "His punishment should've been even more severe!" My strategy for not getting mad/sad about this is to just not think about him at all anymore. with new evidence coming to light in the Pete Rose betting scandal the facts have changed several times. Your current version of the facts is outdated. Rose bet ON THE REDS AS A PLAYER. An important factor is that he never bet AGAINST his own team. He did not actually throw games away and lose intentionally. Still , he has inside info no one else has about both teams giving him a huge advantage as a bettor and making him vulnerable to influence from the CRIMINAL SYNDICATE he placed bets with. He placed bets with ORGANIZED CRIMINALS not in a Las Vegas legal casino. http://www.sbnation.com/2015/6/22/8825465/pete-rose-gambling-reinstatement-outside-the-linesNow if Pete Rose were very poorly paid and a criminal gambling syndicate paid him millions to throw games i would not blame him one bit. But, that is not the case here. Rose was very well paid throughout his playing and management career. People moralizing about people who throw games must keep in mind the context. If the player is being paid almost nothing to play a game where large bets are made we're setting up an environment for match fixing. PAY THE PLAYERS a decent minimum salary to mitigate the urge to take a pay-off for match fixing My lack of actual baseball knowledge has been exposed. There was a drunk guy at the sports bar last week ranting to me about how it is a crime against humanity that Pete Rose isn't in the HoF But my point was really just that the guy saying that professional sports players can come back after doing something illegal was wrong e.g. Pete Rose imo, Rose is receiving the correct punishment. + Show Spoiler +betting on your own team using a CRIME SYNDICATE to take your bets compromises your position as a player with you lose the bet the crime syndicate wants you to do them a favour.
the rules about stiff punishment were clear before Rose bet. these rules were put in place due to a World Series being fixed early in the 20th century. Rose knew the punishment ahead of time.
Friend, I never argued for or against Pete Rose's punishment. I used it as a trad sports example to compare to Life's punishment. I could not care less what Rose's punishment is or if it's justified I was just using it as an example
You follow me? I don't need to be convinced Pete Rose is guilty lmao
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Just like MMA is the son of Boxer, is Life the son of Savior?
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I understand kespa's position on this and I wish it was the same in all other competitions like cycling, poker, or counter strike.
Any other stance is just unfair to all of those who play by the rules.
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I forgive him as a person but once people lose trust in the spirit of competition when you are involved you can't play again.
Everyone makes mistakes and I'm not here to prove to everyone how much of an unforgiving, angry person I can be like a lot of people in this thread. Nobody knows except for Life what pressure he felt and whether he felt threatened by Korean gamblers. It's just really unfortunate that he succumbed to it.
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On January 31 2017 04:59 Loccstana wrote:
Just like MMA is the son of Boxer, is Life the son of Savior?
Life just coincidentally copied some of Savior's most damaging legacies, whereas MMA was handpicked into and trained under Boxer's SlayerS.
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On January 31 2017 04:47 Darkhorse wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2017 01:04 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On January 31 2017 00:14 Darkhorse wrote:On January 30 2017 23:54 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On January 30 2017 22:30 Darkhorse wrote:On January 30 2017 22:10 digmouse wrote:On January 30 2017 22:08 evolsiefil wrote:On January 30 2017 22:03 quirinus wrote:
If a lawyer does something illegal, he can never be a lawyer again, and he'll be tried. Why should it be different for gamers? if a football player, a baseball player, a nba player etc does something illegal, most of the time they can come back after they served their sentence. why should it be different for gamers? Matchfixing in traditional sports mostly result in long bans as well. Yeah Pete Rose was banned from baseball for life for betting as an owner and he didn't even bet on his own games. Odd though how when you're found guilty of assault or domestic abuse you get suspended for two games lol Anyways, I was a huuuuuuuuuuuge fan of Life but I don't really want people adding to his "defense". Just let it go and forget about him. It's healthier for everyone. What he did was pretty terrible and SC2 has to completely move on from him. That includes the people I saw saying "His punishment should've been even more severe!" My strategy for not getting mad/sad about this is to just not think about him at all anymore. with new evidence coming to light in the Pete Rose betting scandal the facts have changed several times. Your current version of the facts is outdated. Rose bet ON THE REDS AS A PLAYER. An important factor is that he never bet AGAINST his own team. He did not actually throw games away and lose intentionally. Still , he has inside info no one else has about both teams giving him a huge advantage as a bettor and making him vulnerable to influence from the CRIMINAL SYNDICATE he placed bets with. He placed bets with ORGANIZED CRIMINALS not in a Las Vegas legal casino. http://www.sbnation.com/2015/6/22/8825465/pete-rose-gambling-reinstatement-outside-the-linesNow if Pete Rose were very poorly paid and a criminal gambling syndicate paid him millions to throw games i would not blame him one bit. But, that is not the case here. Rose was very well paid throughout his playing and management career. People moralizing about people who throw games must keep in mind the context. If the player is being paid almost nothing to play a game where large bets are made we're setting up an environment for match fixing. PAY THE PLAYERS a decent minimum salary to mitigate the urge to take a pay-off for match fixing My lack of actual baseball knowledge has been exposed. There was a drunk guy at the sports bar last week ranting to me about how it is a crime against humanity that Pete Rose isn't in the HoF But my point was really just that the guy saying that professional sports players can come back after doing something illegal was wrong e.g. Pete Rose imo, Rose is receiving the correct punishment. + Show Spoiler +betting on your own team using a CRIME SYNDICATE to take your bets compromises your position as a player with you lose the bet the crime syndicate wants you to do them a favour.
the rules about stiff punishment were clear before Rose bet. these rules were put in place due to a World Series being fixed early in the 20th century. Rose knew the punishment ahead of time. Friend, I never argued for or against Pete Rose's punishment. I used it as a trad sports example to compare to Life's punishment. I could not care less what Rose's punishment is or if it's justified I was just using it as an example You follow me? I don't need to be convinced Pete Rose is guilty lmao
i'm not arguing or debating. a response to your post does not mean disagreement. do you follow me?
you said some guy thinks Rose should be in the HoF. I provide a different perspective. Rose already acknowledged his guilt. The only question now is the punishment levied for the wrongdoing.
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On January 31 2017 03:27 Skynx wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2017 23:09 SkrollK wrote:On January 30 2017 22:49 Skynx wrote:
Lol pls don't compare Life to Lance Armstrong. Might have missed it but none but you did that for the moment :p Must have missed the op then :p :p
Ooops mea maxima culpa  havent read it actually :p
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United States23455 Posts
On January 31 2017 06:01 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2017 04:47 Darkhorse wrote:On January 31 2017 01:04 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On January 31 2017 00:14 Darkhorse wrote:On January 30 2017 23:54 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On January 30 2017 22:30 Darkhorse wrote:On January 30 2017 22:10 digmouse wrote:On January 30 2017 22:08 evolsiefil wrote:On January 30 2017 22:03 quirinus wrote:
If a lawyer does something illegal, he can never be a lawyer again, and he'll be tried. Why should it be different for gamers? if a football player, a baseball player, a nba player etc does something illegal, most of the time they can come back after they served their sentence. why should it be different for gamers? Matchfixing in traditional sports mostly result in long bans as well. Yeah Pete Rose was banned from baseball for life for betting as an owner and he didn't even bet on his own games. Odd though how when you're found guilty of assault or domestic abuse you get suspended for two games lol Anyways, I was a huuuuuuuuuuuge fan of Life but I don't really want people adding to his "defense". Just let it go and forget about him. It's healthier for everyone. What he did was pretty terrible and SC2 has to completely move on from him. That includes the people I saw saying "His punishment should've been even more severe!" My strategy for not getting mad/sad about this is to just not think about him at all anymore. with new evidence coming to light in the Pete Rose betting scandal the facts have changed several times. Your current version of the facts is outdated. Rose bet ON THE REDS AS A PLAYER. An important factor is that he never bet AGAINST his own team. He did not actually throw games away and lose intentionally. Still , he has inside info no one else has about both teams giving him a huge advantage as a bettor and making him vulnerable to influence from the CRIMINAL SYNDICATE he placed bets with. He placed bets with ORGANIZED CRIMINALS not in a Las Vegas legal casino. http://www.sbnation.com/2015/6/22/8825465/pete-rose-gambling-reinstatement-outside-the-linesNow if Pete Rose were very poorly paid and a criminal gambling syndicate paid him millions to throw games i would not blame him one bit. But, that is not the case here. Rose was very well paid throughout his playing and management career. People moralizing about people who throw games must keep in mind the context. If the player is being paid almost nothing to play a game where large bets are made we're setting up an environment for match fixing. PAY THE PLAYERS a decent minimum salary to mitigate the urge to take a pay-off for match fixing My lack of actual baseball knowledge has been exposed. There was a drunk guy at the sports bar last week ranting to me about how it is a crime against humanity that Pete Rose isn't in the HoF But my point was really just that the guy saying that professional sports players can come back after doing something illegal was wrong e.g. Pete Rose imo, Rose is receiving the correct punishment. + Show Spoiler +betting on your own team using a CRIME SYNDICATE to take your bets compromises your position as a player with you lose the bet the crime syndicate wants you to do them a favour.
the rules about stiff punishment were clear before Rose bet. these rules were put in place due to a World Series being fixed early in the 20th century. Rose knew the punishment ahead of time. Friend, I never argued for or against Pete Rose's punishment. I used it as a trad sports example to compare to Life's punishment. I could not care less what Rose's punishment is or if it's justified I was just using it as an example You follow me? I don't need to be convinced Pete Rose is guilty lmao i'm not arguing or debating. a response to your post does not mean disagreement. do you follow me? you said some guy thinks Rose should be in the HoF. I provide a different perspective. Rose already acknowledged his guilt. The only question now is the punishment levied for the wrongdoing.
Is "I DONT GIVE A SHIT ABOUT THE NUANCES OF PETE ROSE'S CRIMES AGAINST BASEBALL OR PUNISHMENT LEVIED" clear enough? Lmao I used it to show the guy earlier that in traditional sports people also can be banned for life for a similar offense.
In response you've typed a few paragraphs to me about the specifics of Pete Rose's case. Your original correction of my incorrect assertion that he bet as an owner and not a player was well founded but beyond that I don't know why you're so hype about explaining this to me. I don't care at all about Pete Rose or baseball for that matter. It's just the most famous example of a player banned for sports gambling lol
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I was as big a life fan as the next guy.. but no.. he shouldn't be allowed back.
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 So few people are interested in redemption.
Admittedly i couldn't care less about a specific incident (i know, for instance that i am totally incapable of gauging the importance of his individual influence (getting caught) over esports/sc2...) and i am much more interested in all the other "hidden" aspects.. but i think it is a clear symptom that so many people would post their opinion while totally discarding these unanswered questions and "buy" the version that he is just a rotten apple in the middle of a perfect place.
Really? Has his permanent banning set an example.. really? i happen to think that match fixing comes from betting (you can never really stop illegal betting) and a"betting corporate machine" is what esports is becoming (most of the money will come from legal betting on esports (go check data if you think i'm crazy))..
.. isn't it that betting makes sports/esports able to become unsound/unpure.
Also the criminal influence on betting in kr's esports is well known.. and what criminals do is precisely that (it takes people on top because they are worth more to their business) .. so to dismiss any possibility that he was pressured into it or even that he was a scapegoat is quite weird.
i guess we will know in 10 years (as things do end up coming out a decade later usually) .. but it is really saddening to see what this thread showcases.
In any case, while i am all for punishment when people do cross "lines" (lines that i do think must be there, we should all thrive to work hard and not belittle what we do if in the course of our lives and we should be punished if we do belittle those precious things).. i do think intrinsically punishment is a start, not an end! And all the people here seem to think different..
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Here is the thing that I think the OP needs to understand: Life wouldn't get a chance for redemption even if he was allowed back in, because the sport would not survive "greenlighting" match fixing.
Tournaments only work when they are legitimate, authentic affairs. Match fixing is illegal, destroys the integrity of tournaments, and casts a shadow over all tournaments and the sport as a whole.
If you allow people to illegally profiteer off matches, and then you allow them back in, your tournaments mean nothing, because then everyone would throw matches. You make way more money fixing matches than you do by winning matches, and while the best players can do both, everyone can match fix. You're not even guaranteed to get caught, but if you do then you don't even really suffer for it since A.) you got rich and B.) you can just come back to the game in a little while. This would never ever work and would be the death of any sport that allowed it.
Even worse though is the idea of letting a player back into tournament play after match fixing but only because they are "the best of the best". This is quite frankly insane because it hurts the sport MORE when the very best, most visible player throws games, not less. Letting the top players "have a gimme" because they're just so good and cool is giving carte blanche to break the law and shit all over the game you love. You'd have the top players constantly throwing games and raking in the cash because why the hell wouldn't they?
Look, I agree that life was a kid when this happened. 19 year olds don't make good decisions. I don't think it's right to demonize him! If someone offered me 50k to throw a game that didn't impact my life in a meaningful way I don't know if I'd be able to resist, and I'm in my 30s. But that doesn't and can't impact the decisionmaking process when it comes to tournaments, competition, cash prizes, and all that jazz.
This has nothing to do with redemption - life doesn't need redemption. He's got money, can keep making money off his talents, can keep playing the game he loves and can switch games and probably compete in other leagues if he wants to. This is about whether or not you want the sport to survive a match-fixing scandal. Your competition means nothing when you give people passes for throwing games for money, and it will not survive. Life wouldn't get a chance for redemption either way.
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EPT
