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On January 21 2017 05:34 thezanursic wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2017 05:03 HyralGambit wrote:On January 21 2017 04:45 thezanursic wrote:
There aren't going to be any balance updates, I think some buffs to DA, Queen, Ghost, Scout would be welcome, but I'm not going to rethread the same argument I've had with people before.
It's probably gonna be a patch to make it more easily compatible with modern systems, maybe improvements to battle.net.
Best case scenario they would add Brood War to the Battle.net launcher, that would make it a bit more accessible to newer players Anti-micro spells like Maelstrom Ensnare and Lockdown should not be made more viable. They should be rare for the sake of a healthy meta. Scouts will be viable if Guardians ZvP map/Carriers PvP maps are used more. Guardians have base +3 armor and if you lost your Corsairs early game, building 1 scout for defense against Guardian ledge camping is better than building 1 Corsair. You don't need Scout speed if you're using Scouts defensively. I'm not going to go over this again, a few weeks ago I had an argument with FlashFTW, that Queens would benefit from a starting energy buff, I did some basic math and I found that the timing window for the Queen to get enough energy for it's first Spawn Broodling is 2 minutes and 14 seconds (Doesn't factor in Queen build time, or the time it takes to get the relevant tech), and it will take you 5 minutes and 36 seconds to get your second siege tank (This is when the Queen becomes cost efficient, assuming it doesn't die). Now the window between the 1st and 2nd Broodling isn't important, and is in my opinion fine, but the timing window between you investing in Queen and getting to use them is something like 148.8s (Build time + time to accumulate energy). This doesn't account for the relevant tech and ect. In the Effort vs Light game (The ASL game where Effort went for Queens, Light saw it and immediately killed him), Light immediately scouted Effort's Queens when they spawned, he pushed towards his natural, Effort counterattacked when Light was almost at his base, Light came back, defended the attack, pushed again to his natural, sieged it down and Effort still had to wait 30 seconds before he could broodling his Siege tanks even though he did a brilliant distraction to keep Light away. The problem with Queens aren't energy rates, or health, or cost, simply it's the timing window in which you are weak because you haven't been able to get your money back for their large investment. This seems like retreading old ground. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/517506-do-you-like-these-bw-hd-graphic-effects?page=3The DA has a similar problem, that the ROI on it is pretty bad, but sadly unlike the Queen balacing it would be a bit more difficult, whereas the Queen is pretty simple to balance, just keep changing the Starting energy until it's just long enough +20, +30, +40, find the right number. Either way there's really zero point in discussing it as it will be the exact same argument as last time Show nested quote +On January 21 2017 05:34 Foxxan wrote:
shouldnt call it a balance patch if you want to just make some underused units more used, that should be called something else.
Antimicro spells isnt really fun and things like that can ruin the entire game if you tweak it just a tiny bit to much.
I dont follow bw to well lately, but would
personally like to see:
1. Zerg able to stay on lair longer vs terran. And potentially more fighting power in lategame without darkswarm vs terran.
2. More dynamic pvp and zvz.
3. More fighting power vs terran mech lategame for protoss without arbiters.
For example, to change pvp up, the shield battery can be key.
For more zerg fighting power lategame vs terran, perhaps a 5hp buff to zerglings buff at hive spawning pool.
I think to really try and make a patch that makes broodwar better than it is, you have to look at all three races at the same time and make changes accordingly.(Which i havent done) Really dont think its good to try and change just one MU, that thinking just doesnt sound to healthy in the long run.
These are the kind of changes that could kill Brood War's balance, and I oppose 100%, mine are the kind that would sprinkle in a bit of diversity in terms of play, but probably have zero impact on Balance.
It just looks like you are salty that Effort lost that game. I, on the other hand, don't like Effort, he is my least favourite player, so I think queens are fine 
if you are so sure that it won't change the balance - create the map where queens start with more energy and test it out 
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On January 21 2017 15:50 Apex wrote:
I'm really excited with the whole SC1 patch, if it's just more upgrades to make BW have better "modern tech" support.
Would be really great to see a revival in the UMS map-scene. As is, it's pretty hard nowadays to find any games of stuff like Turret Defense.
???
More than 50% of all UMS games on FISH are Random Tower Defence map.
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On January 21 2017 05:41 thezanursic wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2017 05:39 IntoTheheart wrote:
Yeah that's the dream! I wouldn't mind seeing community-made maps for "balance" but to be honest I'm reasonably convinced that balancing through maps is the more efficient way of doing it. You can't really make a Queen or a DA map though
you can make a DA Map...
By including neutral units with upgrades researched.
I.e. Arbiter on Triathlon. If that isn't enough you can insert HT/DA/Corsair/Arbiter/Carrier with all upgrades researched 
Maybe you can also include units from other races as well lol
Imagine getting dark swarm vs those scary terran pushes...
Or getting lurkers to defend your bases in pvz...
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will 1.16 replays run fine on 1.17?
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On January 21 2017 16:41 HaFnium wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2017 05:41 thezanursic wrote:On January 21 2017 05:39 IntoTheheart wrote:
Yeah that's the dream! I wouldn't mind seeing community-made maps for "balance" but to be honest I'm reasonably convinced that balancing through maps is the more efficient way of doing it. You can't really make a Queen or a DA map though you can make a DA Map... By including neutral units with upgrades researched. I.e. Arbiter on Triathlon. If that isn't enough you can insert HT/DA/Corsair/Arbiter/Carrier with all upgrades researched Maybe you can also include units from other races as well lol Imagine getting dark swarm vs those scary terran pushes... Or getting lurkers to defend your bases in pvz...
Sure, I guess that could be an interesting idea, I'm pretty sure the Terran would just kill the Neutral Defiler in a PvT.
+ I don't think you get a defiler with research, I don't think you can actually do that. You'll just get a blank defiler with no Dark Swarm. I think all you'd be able to do with the defiler is consume things, not very useful
I've got an idea, put neutral Dark Archons on the map, if you get a Dark Archon, you get another one for free.
Buy 1 get 1 free, hehehe
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On January 21 2017 05:56 thezanursic wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2017 05:50 onlystar wrote:
its best to put balance talk to rest it has been said a thousand times everything has a perfect place or niche place in the game buffing energy units or scouts would tip off some late game mechanics in the wrong direction.
i know its very interesting to debate about hypothetical changes however realize (our) foreigners are not knowledgeable enough to make an accurate assumption on how buffs/nerfs would make an impact on the balance/gameplay
realize that the experts (korean progamers) are within a 100% agreement the game is balanced perfectly changes would be a disaster balancing is done around the maps and ONLY the maps
same goes for korean netizens/hardcore fish users, even though tvz is underfire concerning balance on certain maps are also agreed that changing how the matchup works would tip everything off and solutions are found within maps/playstyles God, I really can't help myself. The idea that the BW is perfectly balanced is absurd, but let's ignore balance, we have certain units that never see play in competative games, if you balance these units just enough, but not too much, they can become a viable alternative without actually becoming better than the standard playing, giving players more options without impacting the balance considerably. I've talked about incremental balancing and I'll say it again. It's very easy to balance these units without breaking the game. Say the Queen energy Buff. The Queen currently starts with 50 energy, change it to 60, let the players play around with the Queen for a month, see if it's better, if you are satisfied with the results, leave it, otherwise change it to 70, eventually you'll have a healthier Queen, if the buffs go too far, just scale it back. And since we are talking about maybe 3-4 units, this isn't that unreasonable, just incrementally balance these 3-4 units over the course of a few months. Result? We see Queens, DA in competative play ever soo often without actually impacting the balance considerably, if at all.
Agree 100%. Let the players try new things! and scale them accordingly
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On January 21 2017 17:18 thezanursic wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2017 16:41 HaFnium wrote:On January 21 2017 05:41 thezanursic wrote:On January 21 2017 05:39 IntoTheheart wrote:
Yeah that's the dream! I wouldn't mind seeing community-made maps for "balance" but to be honest I'm reasonably convinced that balancing through maps is the more efficient way of doing it. You can't really make a Queen or a DA map though you can make a DA Map... By including neutral units with upgrades researched. I.e. Arbiter on Triathlon. If that isn't enough you can insert HT/DA/Corsair/Arbiter/Carrier with all upgrades researched Maybe you can also include units from other races as well lol Imagine getting dark swarm vs those scary terran pushes... Or getting lurkers to defend your bases in pvz... Sure, I guess that could be an interesting idea, I'm pretty sure the Terran would just kill the Neutral Defiler in a PvT. + I don't think you get a defiler with research, I don't think you can actually do that. You'll just get a blank defiler with no Dark Swarm. I think all you'd be able to do with the defiler is consume things, not very useful I've got an idea, put neutral Dark Archons on the map, if you get a Dark Archon, you get another one for free. Buy 1 get 1 free, hehehe
You don't have to research Dark Swarm, Defiler has this ability by default, just like Queen comes with Parasite . And you cannot consume non-zerg units. You cannot repair non-terran buildings too. BW is so racist. I want to consume archons and repair carriers.
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On January 21 2017 18:05 shall_burn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2017 17:18 thezanursic wrote:On January 21 2017 16:41 HaFnium wrote:On January 21 2017 05:41 thezanursic wrote:On January 21 2017 05:39 IntoTheheart wrote:
Yeah that's the dream! I wouldn't mind seeing community-made maps for "balance" but to be honest I'm reasonably convinced that balancing through maps is the more efficient way of doing it. You can't really make a Queen or a DA map though you can make a DA Map... By including neutral units with upgrades researched. I.e. Arbiter on Triathlon. If that isn't enough you can insert HT/DA/Corsair/Arbiter/Carrier with all upgrades researched Maybe you can also include units from other races as well lol Imagine getting dark swarm vs those scary terran pushes... Or getting lurkers to defend your bases in pvz... Sure, I guess that could be an interesting idea, I'm pretty sure the Terran would just kill the Neutral Defiler in a PvT. + I don't think you get a defiler with research, I don't think you can actually do that. You'll just get a blank defiler with no Dark Swarm. I think all you'd be able to do with the defiler is consume things, not very useful I've got an idea, put neutral Dark Archons on the map, if you get a Dark Archon, you get another one for free. Buy 1 get 1 free, hehehe You don't have to research Dark Swarm, Defiler has this ability by default
I was about to say, I can name at least ONE person in this thread who hasn't played enough of one race to comment on balance.
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I will be happy with being able to play battle.net again with friens around the world I have and we were unable to connect so far fopr many hours we tried..
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On January 21 2017 18:11 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2017 18:05 shall_burn wrote:On January 21 2017 17:18 thezanursic wrote:On January 21 2017 16:41 HaFnium wrote:On January 21 2017 05:41 thezanursic wrote:On January 21 2017 05:39 IntoTheheart wrote:
Yeah that's the dream! I wouldn't mind seeing community-made maps for "balance" but to be honest I'm reasonably convinced that balancing through maps is the more efficient way of doing it. You can't really make a Queen or a DA map though you can make a DA Map... By including neutral units with upgrades researched. I.e. Arbiter on Triathlon. If that isn't enough you can insert HT/DA/Corsair/Arbiter/Carrier with all upgrades researched Maybe you can also include units from other races as well lol Imagine getting dark swarm vs those scary terran pushes... Or getting lurkers to defend your bases in pvz... Sure, I guess that could be an interesting idea, I'm pretty sure the Terran would just kill the Neutral Defiler in a PvT. + I don't think you get a defiler with research, I don't think you can actually do that. You'll just get a blank defiler with no Dark Swarm. I think all you'd be able to do with the defiler is consume things, not very useful I've got an idea, put neutral Dark Archons on the map, if you get a Dark Archon, you get another one for free. Buy 1 get 1 free, hehehe You don't have to research Dark Swarm, Defiler has this ability by default I was about to say, I can name at least ONE person in this thread who hasn't played enough of one race to comment on balance.
It's usually people who play one race that complain about balance anyway. But when one plays all the races, he sees that it's not the units that kill him/her, but the skillful opponent
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On January 21 2017 08:20 lestye wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2017 08:02 JungleTerrain wrote:Take a look at this: https://bnetdocs.org/news/118/starcraft-patch-1-17-0-pre-releaseOn the additional notes: "Increased turn rate to lower unit response times over Battle.net gameplay means that the NetworkModeDelay while playing on a server is now the same value as playing on LAN, which is 2. See LatencyChanger." So all games on Battle.net will run at the equivalent of #L2 = Lan Latency? Can somebody confirm if this is true? And what we really need for the map editor is Inverted Ramps, Extended Ramps, Inverted and Extended Ramps, and Buggy tiles fixed. This will allow new possibilities for maps which were not possible before. But I can only dream. That's been their goal for a long time. Clasico on the Classic forums said changing it was a huge pain because of the way those servers were designed. Over a year they changed the wc3 battle.net lag from 250ms to 200ms as of last patch. It's probably something they want to do but it could be super-long term.
You're confusing this with WC3, BW's gameplay is not dependent on the server in any way, changing the built-in latency is likely just changing a value in BW's source code. Also, the claim about WC3's built-in latency being lowered to 200ms is unsubstantiated, I only found one person making this claim without evidence, everyone else is just repeating what that person said.
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On January 21 2017 18:11 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2017 18:05 shall_burn wrote:On January 21 2017 17:18 thezanursic wrote:On January 21 2017 16:41 HaFnium wrote:On January 21 2017 05:41 thezanursic wrote:On January 21 2017 05:39 IntoTheheart wrote:
Yeah that's the dream! I wouldn't mind seeing community-made maps for "balance" but to be honest I'm reasonably convinced that balancing through maps is the more efficient way of doing it. You can't really make a Queen or a DA map though you can make a DA Map... By including neutral units with upgrades researched. I.e. Arbiter on Triathlon. If that isn't enough you can insert HT/DA/Corsair/Arbiter/Carrier with all upgrades researched Maybe you can also include units from other races as well lol Imagine getting dark swarm vs those scary terran pushes... Or getting lurkers to defend your bases in pvz... Sure, I guess that could be an interesting idea, I'm pretty sure the Terran would just kill the Neutral Defiler in a PvT. + I don't think you get a defiler with research, I don't think you can actually do that. You'll just get a blank defiler with no Dark Swarm. I think all you'd be able to do with the defiler is consume things, not very useful I've got an idea, put neutral Dark Archons on the map, if you get a Dark Archon, you get another one for free. Buy 1 get 1 free, hehehe You don't have to research Dark Swarm, Defiler has this ability by default I was about to say, I can name at least ONE person in this thread who hasn't played enough of one race to comment on balance.
Welp, yeah I mostly play Toss and sometimes Terran + it's been a bit since I've played. Only seldom watch games these days
A bit of a brain fart yeah.
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they should do a graphical overhaul too
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LoL, Dota2, WC3 and SC2 all have 250-400 ms build-in latency. That would be considered unplayable in SC BW.
People don't notice or care about it anymore.
Only Starcraft and HoN have low latency, 50 to 100ms.
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On January 21 2017 17:18 thezanursic wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2017 16:41 HaFnium wrote:On January 21 2017 05:41 thezanursic wrote:On January 21 2017 05:39 IntoTheheart wrote:
Yeah that's the dream! I wouldn't mind seeing community-made maps for "balance" but to be honest I'm reasonably convinced that balancing through maps is the more efficient way of doing it. You can't really make a Queen or a DA map though you can make a DA Map... By including neutral units with upgrades researched. I.e. Arbiter on Triathlon. If that isn't enough you can insert HT/DA/Corsair/Arbiter/Carrier with all upgrades researched Maybe you can also include units from other races as well lol Imagine getting dark swarm vs those scary terran pushes... Or getting lurkers to defend your bases in pvz... Sure, I guess that could be an interesting idea, I'm pretty sure the Terran would just kill the Neutral Defiler in a PvT. + I don't think you get a defiler with research, I don't think you can actually do that. You'll just get a blank defiler with no Dark Swarm. I think all you'd be able to do with the defiler is consume things, not very useful I've got an idea, put neutral Dark Archons on the map, if you get a Dark Archon, you get another one for free. Buy 1 get 1 free, hehehe
Can you make it so that the neutral units come upgraded or you cant? Just tested on triathlon the arbiters did come un-upgraded...
On the issue reagarding balance I completely agree that BW shouldn't be like SC2 to try to make all units relevant. Units like queens/scouts/ghosts/DA should be considered as luxury units that we see from time to time and not something that you'd consider essential.
.
That said I am sure that there can be small rooms for tweaking to make those units a bit stronger yet still remain niche. This has to be done extremely carefully and with strict input from experts of the game (korean ex-pros of course...).
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I hope this doesn't happen.
The game is fine as it is, it doesn't need making more units viable or whatever random shit blizzard is thinking of. And anyway, SC2 along with Overwatch showed that they have no idea what they're doing with their rebalances that lead to patch based meta.
If they want to patch something, it should be bnet & latency issues.
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On January 21 2017 21:09 esdf wrote:
I hope this doesn't happen.
The game is fine as it is, it doesn't need making more units viable or whatever random shit blizzard is thinking of. And anyway, SC2 along with Overwatch showed that they have no idea what they're doing with their rebalances that lead to patch based meta.
If they want to patch something, it should be bnet & latency issues.
How? Starcraft has better latency and bnet than SC2.
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On January 21 2017 21:15 Euphorbus wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2017 21:09 esdf wrote:
I hope this doesn't happen.
The game is fine as it is, it doesn't need making more units viable or whatever random shit blizzard is thinking of. And anyway, SC2 along with Overwatch showed that they have no idea what they're doing with their rebalances that lead to patch based meta.
If they want to patch something, it should be bnet & latency issues. How? Starcraft has better latency and bnet than SC2.
No? There's built in delay on B.net from the time where they didnt want to give someone huge latency advantages.
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Only if you play with Blizzard's flavour of Starcraft.
SC2 has the same build-in delay Starcraft originally had. That was when I called in with my 28.8 baud modem and my parents were mad people couldn't call us.
I don't want Blizzard to bring what they did to SC2 to Starcraft. We already solved all their problems long before they announced SC2.
I remember we could bake an egg on our CPU's because Starcraft would always use 100% of our 2 GHz processor, until the community fixed it.
Only years later, Blizzard patched it in their official flavor.
Less Blizzard is what we need.
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EPT
