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On January 28 2017 07:51 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +
I have never once said that this is not something that can be overcome through hard work. It's a 55% imbalance (averaging TvZ and ZvP). It's barely relevant. But it's there. I don't notice it when I play, 99.99% of the people in the world won't notice it when they play. But it's a damn hard 5% to overcome when you're at a pro level.
This argument is so full of bullshit that its a spreading lie at best.
People that are one tier behind or even two will feel this if there is an imbalance in the game.
For example, if its hard for zerg to take a third IT WILL MATTER ALOT in games that arent played at the pro level because if terran can block the third it gives that race a huge advantage.
Also using statistics the way blizzard do it is just nonsense, 50/50 balance doesnt mean balance it only means statistic balance.
If you instead would discuss how the games are won and lost, that would tell something.
50/50 balance right now,
zerg wins 5 lose 5. In two of those games he lost to a 2factory speed vult cheese, alright sloppy scouting.
In one game he lost to a bio normal push to his natural, he wasnt fully awake when terran moved out and didnt build sunkens in time.
You see, context matters alot more.
If zerg loses the game because terran blocked the third. Then what is important is how did terran block the third? Could zerg micro his lings/mutas better to hold off the bio force?
Was the lurker timing off this game?
If zerg had the lurker timing really well, the muta ling micro was outstanding. Then you maybe need to look further. What if at 5:00 in the game, instead of building 4 zerglings, that would have been drones. With the info the mutas bring it shouldnt have been necessary to build those 4lings so those 2drones would gain more over time.
This is how you do balance, not looking at the statstics and letting it speak for you.
Someone who actually makes sense when talking about balance? Sorry this will not be allowed at TL.
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On January 28 2017 15:26 Zera wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2017 13:49 neobowman wrote:On January 28 2017 13:22 BigFan wrote:On January 28 2017 13:09 ninazerg wrote:On January 28 2017 13:00 neobowman wrote:On January 28 2017 12:50 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On January 28 2017 09:35 neobowman wrote:On January 27 2017 16:16 ninazerg wrote:On January 27 2017 15:51 parkufarku wrote:On January 27 2017 01:56 biryusky wrote:
god damn when is this ever gonna stop. Blizzard hasnt touched jack shit about balance since like 10 years ago. Why are we even speculating or suggesting things that dont go anywhere? Because the title of thread says "SC1 is getting patched soon" ??? Are you afraid that Blizzard will finally deservedly nerf Terran and balance ZvT? Oh no, a balanced game incoming, that sounds horrid! Terran doesn't need to be nerfed. The problem with Zergs playing ZvT is that they all do the same build, and do it every game like a robot. It's the match-up that has changed the least in the last 5 years. This quote bothers me. The answer to everything is not "Innovate!" Yes, innovations can come and change matchups but we can't just criticize an entire race because they have not found good alternatives. Lurker builds were popular for a while because mutas weren't working against 5 rax. Sure, they were better. Still not a good solution. What's the problem with ZvP then? Protosses clearly just aren't innovating enough. Let's assume that these players that are literally being paid to play games (Afreeca still supports them through their gaming and they still spend way more time on improving than anyone else) just haven't figured things out enough. It was a strange statement to make after the recent flash v jaedong series where flash just did +1 5 rax every game and jaedong threw pretty much everything at him, winning one game with a freaking hydralisk rush. Nina is talking about making a new standard for a matchup. Like how Bisu redefined PvZ for a bit, how Savior changed ZvT and how TvZ late mech has become dominant. What Flash did basically every game was 5 rax +1. Jaedong can't do that Hydra rush every game. 5 rax +1 was an innovation in that it became the new standard. Standard for Zerg is 3 hatch muta. What Jaedong did (the slow lurker drop and the hydra busts) are cool 1-off strats but nothing more. There's no chance that it'll become the new standard or anything like it. People aren't stagnating into 3 hatch muta because they aren't trying to innovate. They're stagnating because their attempts failed and are failing. I understand if one race can play more or less completely rigid and other races have to play more creatively. But there has to be some sort of standard for everyone where a race can play a matchup and not be straight up behind if both just play standard. No, I'm talking about Zergs doing more builds in ZvT besides 3-Hatch Muta. Jaedong did not just win one game during the series. He also won the lurker-drop game. He almost won the lurker bust game. Edit: Bisu still is winning bigly against Zerg. Why? He's aggressive and controls the skies well with corsairs. Nearly every other Protoss plays safe and doesn't take chances with aggression in the early game like Bisu does. Gotta agree with this. I think Zergs should try different builds and see what gives them the best outcome. It's good usually to stick to something you are familiar with but its like Stork mentioned in his interview, strategies rotate in and out each year so a strat from years ago might be much more effective now. What's there to lose after all? Bisu wins big because he's amazing at multitasking which allows him to be more aggressive with zealots and corsairs. It's not that Protosses just have to do this and they'll win. It's that Bisu's extraordinary skill allows him to do things that other Protosses can't. Jaedong won these games because they were basically cheese that Flash doesn't scout. I'm not saying he shouldn't do it, that's how you play a series. But there's a problem when you can't play standard because you're behind if you do. If you were following what JD said after the games, you would know that he was already behind even before the series started, just because Flash is so much better at the moment and not because of some imbalance that you try to push down our throats. Flash and Last are the only terrans that manage to maintain ridiculously high winrate against Zergs. But what if I tell you, that both of them have even better winrates against Protoss (at least in Oct and Dec), why don't you talk about balance changes to TvP to give a chance for protoss players to win against God and Alpha Terran? It's not the races that are imbalanced, it's the players  And since you love statistics, I am curious - how would statictics look if you take out all the star players? What are the statistics for A class players only? I think you might get close to your desired 50/50 numbers. I might be wrong, but that would be really cool to look at I also might sound close-minded and non-progressive, but really, no changes are needed for this masterpiece.
I have no argument that Flash was the better player in the series. He was, and totally deserves the win.
They have good winrates against Toss, sure. What's the overall winrate in the matchup? You're picking out individual players and ignoring the big picture.
Aight. Let's take out star player stats. Including Bisu's PvZ I suppose. We'll see how that works out.
On January 28 2017 15:34 fearthequeen wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2017 07:51 Foxxan wrote:
I have never once said that this is not something that can be overcome through hard work. It's a 55% imbalance (averaging TvZ and ZvP). It's barely relevant. But it's there. I don't notice it when I play, 99.99% of the people in the world won't notice it when they play. But it's a damn hard 5% to overcome when you're at a pro level.
This argument is so full of bullshit that its a spreading lie at best.
People that are one tier behind or even two will feel this if there is an imbalance in the game.
For example, if its hard for zerg to take a third IT WILL MATTER ALOT in games that arent played at the pro level because if terran can block the third it gives that race a huge advantage.
Also using statistics the way blizzard do it is just nonsense, 50/50 balance doesnt mean balance it only means statistic balance.
If you instead would discuss how the games are won and lost, that would tell something.
50/50 balance right now,
zerg wins 5 lose 5. In two of those games he lost to a 2factory speed vult cheese, alright sloppy scouting.
In one game he lost to a bio normal push to his natural, he wasnt fully awake when terran moved out and didnt build sunkens in time.
You see, context matters alot more.
If zerg loses the game because terran blocked the third. Then what is important is how did terran block the third? Could zerg micro his lings/mutas better to hold off the bio force?
Was the lurker timing off this game?
If zerg had the lurker timing really well, the muta ling micro was outstanding. Then you maybe need to look further. What if at 5:00 in the game, instead of building 4 zerglings, that would have been drones. With the info the mutas bring it shouldnt have been necessary to build those 4lings so those 2drones would gain more over time.
This is how you do balance, not looking at the statstics and letting it speak for you. Someone who actually makes sense when talking about balance? Sorry this will not be allowed at TL.
I honestly don't understand what he was saying. If you could explain, that would be appreciated.
Edit: Actually I think I'll just stop replying. It's not enjoyable.
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Hope blizzard doesn't fuck up the newest patch
Hope blizzard doesn't fuck up the bw remake
Hope blizzard doesn't fuck up everything
yes they will
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On January 28 2017 16:10 neobowman wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2017 15:26 Zera wrote:On January 28 2017 13:49 neobowman wrote:On January 28 2017 13:22 BigFan wrote:On January 28 2017 13:09 ninazerg wrote:On January 28 2017 13:00 neobowman wrote:On January 28 2017 12:50 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On January 28 2017 09:35 neobowman wrote:On January 27 2017 16:16 ninazerg wrote:On January 27 2017 15:51 parkufarku wrote:
[quote]
Because the title of thread says "SC1 is getting patched soon" ??? Are you afraid that Blizzard will finally deservedly nerf Terran and balance ZvT? Oh no, a balanced game incoming, that sounds horrid! Terran doesn't need to be nerfed. The problem with Zergs playing ZvT is that they all do the same build, and do it every game like a robot. It's the match-up that has changed the least in the last 5 years. This quote bothers me. The answer to everything is not "Innovate!" Yes, innovations can come and change matchups but we can't just criticize an entire race because they have not found good alternatives. Lurker builds were popular for a while because mutas weren't working against 5 rax. Sure, they were better. Still not a good solution. What's the problem with ZvP then? Protosses clearly just aren't innovating enough. Let's assume that these players that are literally being paid to play games (Afreeca still supports them through their gaming and they still spend way more time on improving than anyone else) just haven't figured things out enough. It was a strange statement to make after the recent flash v jaedong series where flash just did +1 5 rax every game and jaedong threw pretty much everything at him, winning one game with a freaking hydralisk rush. Nina is talking about making a new standard for a matchup. Like how Bisu redefined PvZ for a bit, how Savior changed ZvT and how TvZ late mech has become dominant. What Flash did basically every game was 5 rax +1. Jaedong can't do that Hydra rush every game. 5 rax +1 was an innovation in that it became the new standard. Standard for Zerg is 3 hatch muta. What Jaedong did (the slow lurker drop and the hydra busts) are cool 1-off strats but nothing more. There's no chance that it'll become the new standard or anything like it. People aren't stagnating into 3 hatch muta because they aren't trying to innovate. They're stagnating because their attempts failed and are failing. I understand if one race can play more or less completely rigid and other races have to play more creatively. But there has to be some sort of standard for everyone where a race can play a matchup and not be straight up behind if both just play standard. No, I'm talking about Zergs doing more builds in ZvT besides 3-Hatch Muta. Jaedong did not just win one game during the series. He also won the lurker-drop game. He almost won the lurker bust game. Edit: Bisu still is winning bigly against Zerg. Why? He's aggressive and controls the skies well with corsairs. Nearly every other Protoss plays safe and doesn't take chances with aggression in the early game like Bisu does. Gotta agree with this. I think Zergs should try different builds and see what gives them the best outcome. It's good usually to stick to something you are familiar with but its like Stork mentioned in his interview, strategies rotate in and out each year so a strat from years ago might be much more effective now. What's there to lose after all? Bisu wins big because he's amazing at multitasking which allows him to be more aggressive with zealots and corsairs. It's not that Protosses just have to do this and they'll win. It's that Bisu's extraordinary skill allows him to do things that other Protosses can't. Jaedong won these games because they were basically cheese that Flash doesn't scout. I'm not saying he shouldn't do it, that's how you play a series. But there's a problem when you can't play standard because you're behind if you do. If you were following what JD said after the games, you would know that he was already behind even before the series started, just because Flash is so much better at the moment and not because of some imbalance that you try to push down our throats. Flash and Last are the only terrans that manage to maintain ridiculously high winrate against Zergs. But what if I tell you, that both of them have even better winrates against Protoss (at least in Oct and Dec), why don't you talk about balance changes to TvP to give a chance for protoss players to win against God and Alpha Terran? It's not the races that are imbalanced, it's the players And since you love statistics, I am curious - how would statictics look if you take out all the star players? What are the statistics for A class players only? I think you might get close to your desired 50/50 numbers. I might be wrong, but that would be really cool to look at I also might sound close-minded and non-progressive, but really, no changes are needed for this masterpiece. I have no argument that Flash was the better player in the series. He was, and totally deserves the win.Aight. Let's take out star player stats. Including Bisu's PvZ I suppose. We'll see how that works out. .
So you said this: "Jaedong won these games because they were basically cheese that Flash doesn't scout. I'm not saying he shouldn't do it, that's how you play a series.But there's a problem when you can't play standard because you're behind if you do." and then you say you have no argument that Flash was the better player... I am honestly confused now.
They have good winrates against Toss, sure. What's the overall winrate in the matchup? You're picking out individual players and ignoring the big picture.
You were also picking out individual players when compiling your winrate thing. You litteraly took top5 players each month,... that's why I am suggesting to ignore these star players, yes including Bisu's PvZ.
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It's been over a decade. ZvT has pretty much exhausted all options and openings. There's been thousands and thousands of ZvT matches, across different map pools, by all sorts of macro / aggressive / cheesy / greedy / standard players.
A game can only change so much. Some of you guys who say "Z should try this or Z needs to experiment more" isn't seeing the big picture. This isn't a new game with a new expansion that came out a year ago, it's a game older than my old ass car. There has to be a point where we can say, ok we've seen enough, it's time to make things more fair.
Even those of you who are unable to admit it's an uphill matchup for Zerg has to admit that the MU isn't perfect. And if you like BW, why wouldn't you want improvements? No one is saying give Zerglings ability to fly. Just small incremental changes here and there until we can collect enough data
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On January 28 2017 18:50 parkufarku wrote:
It's been over a decade. ZvT has pretty much exhausted all options and openings. There's been thousands and thousands of ZvT matches, across different map pools, by all sorts of macro / aggressive / cheesy / greedy / standard players.
A game can only change so much. Some of you guys who say "Z should try this or Z needs to experiment more" isn't seeing the big picture. This isn't a new game with a new expansion that came out a year ago, it's a game older than my old ass car. There has to be a point where we can say, ok we've seen enough, it's time to make things more fair.
Even those of you who are unable to admit it's an uphill matchup for Zerg has to admit that the MU isn't perfect. And if you like BW, why wouldn't you want improvements? No one is saying give Zerglings ability to fly. Just small incremental changes here and there until we can collect enough data
Nothing is perfect in this world and BW does not have to be perfect either to be fun to watch and play. And we like BW because of the way it is, that's why we and pros don't want any balance changes (improvements? please...).
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Well i think people would want a patch that changes things if they knew it would actually really increase the gameplay and balance. But the faith in blizzard isnt strong is my guess.
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On January 28 2017 20:58 Foxxan wrote:
Well i think people would want a patch that changes things if they knew it would actually really increase the gameplay and balance. But the faith in blizzard isnt strong is my guess.
You are unfair. Faith in Blizzard screwing shit up is stronger than ever.
Also TvZ solved? Everytime I though that, someone came and shown me I was wrong.
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balance changes to 1.08 ruined everything imo
Valkyrie:
Damage increase to 6 per missile.
Acceleration and velocity increased slightly.
Build time decreased.
Science Facility:
Build time decreased.
Irradiate research cost increased to 200 minerals, 200 gas.
Yamato Cannon research cost decreased to 100 minerals, 100 gas.
Missile Turret:
Decreased cost to 75 minerals.
Factory:
Charon Missile Booster research cost decreased to 100 minerals, 100 gas.
Dropship:
Increased speed.
Goliath:
Increased ground attack range.
Battle Cruiser:
Build time decreased.
Supply cost decreased to 6.
Dragoon:
Build time increased.
Scout:
Decreased cost to 275 minerals, 125 gas.
Carrier:
Supply cost decreased to 6.
Templar:
Psi Storm Damage reduced.
Corsair:
Disruption Web spell duration decreased.
Zealot:
Shields decreased to 60 and hit points increased to 100.
Queen:
Decreased build cost to 100 minerals, 100 gas.
Ultralisk:
Supply cost decreased to 4.
Queen's Nest:
Spawn Broodling cost decreased to 100 minerals, 100 gas.
Hydralisk Den:
Lurker Aspect cost increased to 200 minerals, 200 gas.
Hydralisk speed upgrade cost increased to 150 minerals, 150 gas.
Spawning Pool:
Increased build cost to 200 minerals
Sunken Colony:
Building armor increased to 2.
Hit points decreased to 300.
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Who needs balance changes when we could just make maps absolutely perfect and possibly even have maps that are only used for certain match ups?
To get more hive ZvZ's, change the lay-out of bases to have mineral lines be more protected from mutalisk harass. Use this map specifically for ZvZ games.
To get a fairer ZvT late game vs mech, change the main-natural base lay-out so tanks can't protect both as efficiently at the same time. Prevent the construction of lines of turrets at the outer rings of mains so zerg can drop easier. Add building blockers so terran can't get 4 or more comSat stations at CCs .
No, I don't believe these examples to be great suggestions but I hope you can see that there's a lot of potential in maps to "balance" match ups as perfectly as possible and in a nuanced manner without changing the core game.
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I hope they fix bug where Valkyries dont shot when there is too much units on the map.
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On January 28 2017 18:50 parkufarku wrote:
It's been over a decade. ZvT has pretty much exhausted all options and openings. There's been thousands and thousands of ZvT matches, across different map pools, by all sorts of macro / aggressive / cheesy / greedy / standard players.
A game can only change so much. Some of you guys who say "Z should try this or Z needs to experiment more" isn't seeing the big picture. This isn't a new game with a new expansion that came out a year ago, it's a game older than my old ass car. There has to be a point where we can say, ok we've seen enough, it's time to make things more fair.
Even those of you who are unable to admit it's an uphill matchup for Zerg has to admit that the MU isn't perfect. And if you like BW, why wouldn't you want improvements? No one is saying give Zerglings ability to fly. Just small incremental changes here and there until we can collect enough data
Written from the perspective of a player who only played one race for a rather short period of time.
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As someone who once 2gated his way to D I have no useful input to give on this topic whatsoever.
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Japan11286 Posts
On January 28 2017 23:02 Kleinmuuhg wrote:
As someone who once 2gated his way to D I have no useful input to give on this topic whatsoever.
I have a better strat, register into D
Assuming this is iccup rank ofc
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pointless balance thread turns out to still be a pointless balance thread on page 18, except everybody got more upset and aggressive in their arguments. Boy, am I surprised.
+ Show Spoiler +Oh wait, it used to be a thread about the allegedly upcoming patch. Without looking it up, i imagine the thread was derailed on page 2, page 3 at the latest.
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On January 28 2017 23:08 c3rberUs wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2017 23:02 Kleinmuuhg wrote:
As someone who once 2gated his way to D I have no useful input to give on this topic whatsoever. I have a better strat, register into D Assuming this is iccup rank ofc
Yes that was / I am the joke. I was always better at watching.
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On January 28 2017 22:42 pivor wrote:
I hope they fix bug where Valkyries dont shot when there is too much units on the map.
Agreed. BUFF TERRAN IN RACE WARS AND FFA!!!
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Russian Federation481 Posts
Balance isn't perfect (of cource). But trying to rebalance will likely only make things worse.
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On January 28 2017 15:34 fearthequeen wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2017 07:51 Foxxan wrote:
I have never once said that this is not something that can be overcome through hard work. It's a 55% imbalance (averaging TvZ and ZvP). It's barely relevant. But it's there. I don't notice it when I play, 99.99% of the people in the world won't notice it when they play. But it's a damn hard 5% to overcome when you're at a pro level.
This argument is so full of bullshit that its a spreading lie at best.
People that are one tier behind or even two will feel this if there is an imbalance in the game.
For example, if its hard for zerg to take a third IT WILL MATTER ALOT in games that arent played at the pro level because if terran can block the third it gives that race a huge advantage.
Also using statistics the way blizzard do it is just nonsense, 50/50 balance doesnt mean balance it only means statistic balance.
If you instead would discuss how the games are won and lost, that would tell something.
50/50 balance right now,
zerg wins 5 lose 5. In two of those games he lost to a 2factory speed vult cheese, alright sloppy scouting.
In one game he lost to a bio normal push to his natural, he wasnt fully awake when terran moved out and didnt build sunkens in time.
You see, context matters alot more.
If zerg loses the game because terran blocked the third. Then what is important is how did terran block the third? Could zerg micro his lings/mutas better to hold off the bio force?
Was the lurker timing off this game?
If zerg had the lurker timing really well, the muta ling micro was outstanding. Then you maybe need to look further. What if at 5:00 in the game, instead of building 4 zerglings, that would have been drones. With the info the mutas bring it shouldnt have been necessary to build those 4lings so those 2drones would gain more over time.
This is how you do balance, not looking at the statstics and letting it speak for you. Someone who actually makes sense when talking about balance?
Dunno about that... he seems to be arguing that statistics don't matter. Can't really get on board with that.
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On January 28 2017 18:50 parkufarku wrote:
It's been over a decade. ZvT has pretty much exhausted all options and openings. There's been thousands and thousands of ZvT matches, across different map pools, by all sorts of macro / aggressive / cheesy / greedy / standard players.
A game can only change so much. Some of you guys who say "Z should try this or Z needs to experiment more" aren't seeing the big picture. This isn't a new game with a new expansion that came out a year ago, it's a game older than my old ass car. There has to be a point where we can say, ok we've seen enough, it's time to make things more fair.
Even those of you who are unable to admit it's an uphill matchup for Zerg have to admit that the MU isn't perfect. And if you like BW, why wouldn't you want improvements? No one is saying give Zerglings ability to fly. Just small incremental changes here and there until we can collect enough data
Agree 100%. While I don't think Bliz will actually go and make balance changes, IF they did, and they did them RIGHT, it would be a plus. Nothing's perfect, and the game can be improved.
The problem is, Bliz is just not inspiring confidence in their ability to do so these days. Their attempts at SC2 balancing were a cold slap in the groin to many players. So among some players there's legit fear about that out there, on top of a certain close-mindedness towards change, ANY change whatsoever. 
But even so, the game technically *could* be improved. There's been roughly 100 balance changes to SC over the various balance patches, and both before and after every balance patch, some ppl whined that Bliz would "RUIN the GAME!" if they did anything.
But oddly enough, every balance patch actually improved the game. We have what we have today precisely BECAUSE Bliz was willing to change and improve the game, actually. Which is sort of ironic to remember, when you hear the "Any change would be AWFUL!!" crowd weigh in.
If we'd gone with that attitude, we'd still be at SC 1.00 balance... which was quite bad, actually.
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EPT
