On January 21 2017 04:45 thezanursic wrote: There aren't going to be any balance updates, I think some buffs to DA, Queen, Ghost, Scout would be welcome, but I'm not going to rethread the same argument I've had with people before.
It's probably gonna be a patch to make it more easily compatible with modern systems, maybe improvements to battle.net.
Best case scenario they would add Brood War to the Battle.net launcher, that would make it a bit more accessible to newer players
Anti-micro spells like Maelstrom Ensnare and Lockdown should not be made more viable. They should be rare for the sake of a healthy meta.
Scouts will be viable if Guardians ZvP map/Carriers PvP maps are used more. Guardians have base +3 armor and if you lost your Corsairs early game, building 1 scout for defense against Guardian ledge camping is better than building 1 Corsair. You don't need Scout speed if you're using Scouts defensively.
I'm not going to go over this again, a few weeks ago I had an argument with FlashFTW, that Queens would benefit from a starting energy buff, I did some basic math and I found that the timing window for the Queen to get enough energy for it's first Spawn Broodling is 2 minutes and 14 seconds (Doesn't factor in Queen build time, or the time it takes to get the relevant tech), and it will take you 5 minutes and 36 seconds to get your second siege tank (This is when the Queen becomes cost efficient, assuming it doesn't die).
Now the window between the 1st and 2nd Broodling isn't important, and is in my opinion fine, but the timing window between you investing in Queen and getting to use them is something like 148.8s (Build time + time to accumulate energy). This doesn't account for the relevant tech and ect. In the Effort vs Light game (The ASL game where Effort went for Queens, Light saw it and immediately killed him), Light immediately scouted Effort's Queens when they spawned, he pushed towards his natural, Effort counterattacked when Light was almost at his base, Light came back, defended the attack, pushed again to his natural, sieged it down and Effort still had to wait 30 seconds before he could broodling his Siege tanks even though he did a brilliant distraction to keep Light away.
The problem with Queens aren't energy rates, or health, or cost, simply it's the timing window in which you are weak because you haven't been able to get your money back for their large investment.
The DA has a similar problem, that the ROI on it is pretty bad, but sadly unlike the Queen balacing it would be a bit more difficult, whereas the Queen is pretty simple to balance, just keep changing the Starting energy until it's just long enough +20, +30, +40, find the right number.
Either way there's really zero point in discussing it as it will be the exact same argument as last time
On January 21 2017 05:34 Foxxan wrote: shouldnt call it a balance patch if you want to just make some underused units more used, that should be called something else. Antimicro spells isnt really fun and things like that can ruin the entire game if you tweak it just a tiny bit to much.
I dont follow bw to well lately, but would personally like to see: 1. Zerg able to stay on lair longer vs terran. And potentially more fighting power in lategame without darkswarm vs terran. 2. More dynamic pvp and zvz. 3. More fighting power vs terran mech lategame for protoss without arbiters.
For example, to change pvp up, the shield battery can be key. For more zerg fighting power lategame vs terran, perhaps a 5hp buff to zerglings buff at hive spawning pool.
I think to really try and make a patch that makes broodwar better than it is, you have to look at all three races at the same time and make changes accordingly.(Which i havent done) Really dont think its good to try and change just one MU, that thinking just doesnt sound to healthy in the long run.
These are the kind of changes that could kill Brood War's balance, and I oppose 100%, mine are the kind that would sprinkle in a bit of diversity in terms of play, but probably have zero impact on Balance.
You know WarCraft3 has maps with these fountains things that give you back mana.
Make a map in Brood War that just like that.
Again, nothing that can't be fixed through BW maps.
Would be a very cool idea indeed, the only problem is that while this *might* be possible in an UMS setting, it is impossible to play such a map on ladder settings.
I guess this would be a very good change for the patch, increase the capacity of the Editor and maybe allow for such a thing on a 1v1 map, something like this could definitely balance the Queen, but currently it's literally impossible outside of maybe a UMS map, on the other hand, I don't see why not just give the Queen a bit more starting Energy, I think I put forth a pretty solid argument of why that change would benefit the game, haven't really seen any good counter point though
its best to put balance talk to rest it has been said a thousand times everything has a perfect place or niche place in the game buffing energy units or scouts would tip off some late game mechanics in the wrong direction.
i know its very interesting to debate about hypothetical changes however realize (us) foreigners are not knowledgeable enough to make an accurate assumption on how buffs/nerfs would make an impact on the balance/gameplay
realize that the experts (korean progamers) are within a 100% agreement the game is balanced perfectly changes would be a disaster balancing is done around the maps and ONLY the maps
same goes for korean netizens/hardcore fish users, even though tvz is underfire concerning balance on certain maps are also agreed that changing how the matchup works would tip everything off and solutions are found within maps/playstyles
On January 21 2017 05:34 Foxxan wrote: shouldnt call it a balance patch if you want to just make some underused units more used, that should be called something else. Antimicro spells isnt really fun and things like that can ruin the entire game if you tweak it just a tiny bit to much.
I dont follow bw to well lately, but would personally like to see: 1. Zerg able to stay on lair longer vs terran. And potentially more fighting power in lategame without darkswarm vs terran. 2. More dynamic pvp and zvz. 3. More fighting power vs terran mech lategame for protoss without arbiters.
For example, to change pvp up, the shield battery can be key. For more zerg fighting power lategame vs terran, perhaps a 5hp buff to zerglings buff at hive spawning pool.
I think to really try and make a patch that makes broodwar better than it is, you have to look at all three races at the same time and make changes accordingly.(Which i havent done) Really dont think its good to try and change just one MU, that thinking just doesnt sound to healthy in the long run.
I will not address your points 1 and 3 since they would fuck up the balance, but more dynamic PvP and ZvZ is possible through maps. (Broken record here)
Imagine a map where you have Dark Swarms covering the mains' mineral lines that protects you from Mutalisk harrass. Then all of a sudden, Hive tech ZvZ becomes easier to transition to and we will see a more dynamic ZvZ meta.
In fact, I wouldn't mind to see some Dark Swarms over mineral lines in non-mirrors as well. Probably nerfs mass hydra busts and the +1 5rax TvZ that Flash has popularized (assuming no firebats because Dark Swarm doesn't protect your mineral lines from firebats).
On January 21 2017 05:50 onlystar wrote: its best to put balance talk to rest it has been said a thousand times everything has a perfect place or niche place in the game buffing energy units or scouts would tip off some late game mechanics in the wrong direction.
i know its very interesting to debate about hypothetical changes however realize (our) foreigners are not knowledgeable enough to make an accurate assumption on how buffs/nerfs would make an impact on the balance/gameplay
realize that the experts (korean progamers) are within a 100% agreement the game is balanced perfectly changes would be a disaster balancing is done around the maps and ONLY the maps
same goes for korean netizens/hardcore fish users, even though tvz is underfire concerning balance on certain maps are also agreed that changing how the matchup works would tip everything off and solutions are found within maps/playstyles
God, I really can't help myself.
The idea that the BW is perfectly balanced is absurd, but let's ignore balance, we have certain units that never see play in competative games, if you balance these units just enough, but not too much, they can become a viable alternative without actually becoming better than the standard playing, giving players more options without impacting the balance considerably. I've talked about incremental balancing and I'll say it again.
It's very easy to balance these units without breaking the game. Say the Queen energy Buff. The Queen currently starts with 50 energy, change it to 60, let the players play around with the Queen for a month, see if it's better, if you are satisfied with the results, leave it, otherwise change it to 70, eventually you'll have a healthier Queen, if the buffs go too far, just scale it back. And since we are talking about maybe 3-4 units, this isn't that unreasonable, just incrementally balance these 3-4 units over the course of a few months. Result? We see Queens, DA in competative play ever soo often without actually impacting the balance considerably, if at all.
On January 21 2017 05:51 awerti wrote: We know what will be in the patch, because patch notes were leaked: www.staredit.net
No balance changes, no BW: HD or anything game-breaking. It is a small patch that makes BW easier to run on modern systems.
Well of course, I didn't expect differently.
The best we can hope for is that Brood War gets added to the Battle.net 2.0 launcher, ironically this change, however seemingly insignificant would do the most for the health of the scene, maybe integrate private servers like ICCUP and Fish straight into the game, that would be nice too, but a bit more unlikely
blizz just give us what everyone wants but is too afraid to say it.. Autocasting, infinite unit selection, automining, warcraft like graphics, carriers with teleport ability, replace defilers with units that cast out boogers and for the love of god where is our ACHIEVEMENT SYSTEM???
On January 21 2017 05:58 ICanFlyLow wrote: blizz just give us what everyone wants but is too afraid to say it.. Autocasting, infinite unit selection, automining, warcraft like graphics, carriers with teleport ability, replace defilers with units that cast out boogers and for the love of god where is our ACHIEVEMENT SYSTEM???
loving what u did there hehe thats what we all want guys remember 4years ago shiney grafix and autocasting yaaaaay look how cool that game became hehe
I will not address your points 1 and 3 since they would fuck up the balance, but more dynamic PvP and ZvZ is possible through maps. (Broken record here)
WTF, those werent my suggestions those were just some examples. MAybe if you read more carefully next time you would notice the word "example".. jesus crist people dont fucking know how to read properly nowadays.
And just to spill this out here for future people that maybe want to really discuss things. If you see an example, maybe you can IMAGINE some other change to some other race AT THE SAME TIME instead of writing it off as if you are a fucking genius that know something inside and out.
Imagine a map where you have Dark Swarms covering the mains' mineral lines that protects you from Mutalisk harrass. Then all of a sudden, Hive tech ZvZ becomes easier to transition to and we will see a more dynamic ZvZ meta.
I will go your route on this one. This wouldnt make those mirrors dynamic, its just a foolish bandaid fix that makes it set it stone "dont go mutas here". Nowhere in my mind do i see any dynamic here.
On January 21 2017 05:50 onlystar wrote: its best to put balance talk to rest it has been said a thousand times everything has a perfect place or niche place in the game buffing energy units or scouts would tip off some late game mechanics in the wrong direction.
i know its very interesting to debate about hypothetical changes however realize (our) foreigners are not knowledgeable enough to make an accurate assumption on how buffs/nerfs would make an impact on the balance/gameplay
realize that the experts (korean progamers) are within a 100% agreement the game is balanced perfectly changes would be a disaster balancing is done around the maps and ONLY the maps
same goes for korean netizens/hardcore fish users, even though tvz is underfire concerning balance on certain maps are also agreed that changing how the matchup works would tip everything off and solutions are found within maps/playstyles
God, I really can't help myself.
The idea that the BW is perfectly balanced is absurd, but let's ignore balance, we have certain units that never see play in competative games, if you balance these units just enough, but not too much, they can become a viable alternative without actually becoming better than the standard playing, giving players more options without impacting the balance considerably. I've talked about incremental balancing and I'll say it again.
It's very easy to balance these units without breaking the game. Say the Queen energy Buff. The Queen currently starts with 50 energy, change it to 60, let the players play around with the Queen for a month, see if it's better, if you are satisfied with the results, leave it, otherwise change it to 70, eventually you'll have a healthier Queen, if the buffs go too far, just scale it back. And since we are talking about maybe 3-4 units, this isn't that unreasonable, just incrementally balance these 3-4 units over the course of a few months. Result? We see Queens, DA in competative play ever soo often without actually impacting the balance considerably, if at all.
first off i have to correct myself there is no such thing as perfect balance with 3races in the game i think its not possible in theory even.. but back to my point so its balanced ''near balanced'' to hit those ratios of 51/52/53% on some maps to call near balanced..
there is no such thing as buffing energy units ''just enough'' or making it better.. why you ask? look at the last 15years or progaming/postkespa broodwar and youre statement is false on Queens/DA not having an actual impact on the balance gameplay as Queens have played a significant roll in TvZ late game (sniping tanks making them very cost effective as the game goes on) its Trademark for EffOrt TvZ for a long time ZerO also was excellent at using them in kespa days DA is a complete game changer for PvZ mid game in Kespa days having a DA to catch an clumped up group of mutas forcing progamer zergs to micro outside of the reach of DA or get caught by mealstorm and get stormed or killed by archons without killing any units for youre mutas..
this is al very basic out in the open knowlegde that anyone who watched proleague for a couple of years knows... so in my mind you really are debating this subject on a novice level, i dont mean to personally attack you its just how it comes across for me.
On January 21 2017 05:39 IntoTheheart wrote: Yeah that's the dream! I wouldn't mind seeing community-made maps for "balance" but to be honest I'm reasonably convinced that balancing through maps is the more efficient way of doing it.
I will not address your points 1 and 3 since they would fuck up the balance, but more dynamic PvP and ZvZ is possible through maps. (Broken record here)
WTF, those werent my suggestions those were just some examples. MAybe if you read more carefully next time you would notice the word "example".. jesus crist people dont fucking know how to read properly nowadays.
And just to spill this out here for future people that maybe want to really discuss things. If you see an example, maybe you can IMAGINE some other change to some other race AT THE SAME TIME instead of writing it off as if you are a fucking genius that know something inside and out.
Imagine a map where you have Dark Swarms covering the mains' mineral lines that protects you from Mutalisk harrass. Then all of a sudden, Hive tech ZvZ becomes easier to transition to and we will see a more dynamic ZvZ meta.
I will go your route on this one. This wouldnt make those mirrors dynamic, its just a foolish bandaid fix that makes it set it stone "dont go mutas here". Nowhere in my mind do i see any dynamic here.
How dynamic you want ZvZ to be? Dynamic like this?
Also people need to realize that something being rare isn't a bad thing (it will be all the more hype when someone does it).
Puff vs Young Link is really boring and campy, but remember the FIRST TIME Armada pulled out his secret counter pick Young Link vs HungryBox? Even diehard Mango fans cheered for Armada:
On January 21 2017 05:39 IntoTheheart wrote: Yeah that's the dream! I wouldn't mind seeing community-made maps for "balance" but to be honest I'm reasonably convinced that balancing through maps is the more efficient way of doing it.
You can't really make a Queen or a DA map though
You can make a queen map. It's called Holy World.
Nice meme, came to mind, but that's still more of a joke
On January 21 2017 05:51 awerti wrote: We know what will be in the patch, because patch notes were leaked: www.staredit.net
No balance changes, no BW: HD or anything game-breaking. It is a small patch that makes BW easier to run on modern systems.
if it is the case why is taking so much time? but yeah is more than guaranted that balanced is out of question.
because foreigners just simply LOVE to debate balancing in starcraft and they bring all their personal shortcomings into the discussion or just lack of basic knowledge late game mechanics or are simply unaware how the subject is perceived by progamers/korean scene
On January 21 2017 05:39 IntoTheheart wrote: Yeah that's the dream! I wouldn't mind seeing community-made maps for "balance" but to be honest I'm reasonably convinced that balancing through maps is the more efficient way of doing it.
You can't really make a Queen or a DA map though
You can make a queen map. It's called Holy World.
Nice meme, came to mind, but that's still more of a joke
I do think the BW map editor could use a boost without releasing a Balance Patch. Maybe import some new toys from the powerful War3 editor that gave birth to Dota.
And also fix that snow tileset that is giving Koreans eye cancer.
On January 21 2017 05:51 awerti wrote: We know what will be in the patch, because patch notes were leaked: www.staredit.net
No balance changes, no BW: HD or anything game-breaking. It is a small patch that makes BW easier to run on modern systems.
if it is the case why is taking so much time? but yeah is more than guaranted that balanced is out of question.
because foreigners just simply LOVE to debate balancing in starcraft and they bring all their personal shortcomings into the discussion or just lack of basic knowledge late game mechanics or are simply unaware how the subject is perceived by progamers/korean scene
Taking* not talking*
Also it's not as if Koreans asked for balance changes for forever, but let's ignore that. This isn't either a Korean or a Foreigner "thing".
EPT
thats what we all want guys remember 4years ago shiney grafix and autocasting yaaaaay look how cool that game became hehe
