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United Kingdom20275 Posts
On November 17 2015 09:00 TomatoBisque wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2015 08:55 Teoita wrote:
On a slightly related note screw trial of the crusader. That raid was just awful. Nah wrath had the most and best raids of all time just ignore that naxx was a remake and was a total joke, toc sucked, 4 more were 1 boss raids, and we had ICC for a year It was the best
That's what makes Wrath good; it's a fairly strong raiding expansion even if you exclude Naxx and TOTC. That still leaves Ulduar and ICC (two really awesome long raids) as well as ~7 bosses in OS/EOE/VOA/RS. It was also probably the most influential expansion for raiding as a whole, it was the one where raiding was no longer restricted to 5% of players even entering the instance.
It brought gear scaling over time to the masses as well as a range of difficulties in different instances (if you couldn't run naxx with your friends in dungeon blues, wait a bit and the justice vendor will give you t17 to go clear it in!) - the difficulty scaling also expanded into the first scaling difficulty mechanics (OS 0drake, 1, 2, 3 drake; Ulduar hardmodes) for both higher tier raiders and worse ones later into the expansion.
WoW has never had better than Wrath's 1 year (well, 1 day less than 1 year) final large raid (with even a single boss, several miniboss instance added in); that's more of a game design problem than a wrath problem
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On November 17 2015 09:00 TomatoBisque wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2015 08:55 Teoita wrote:
On a slightly related note screw trial of the crusader. That raid was just awful. Nah wrath had the most and best raids of all time just ignore that naxx was a remake and was a total joke, toc sucked, 4 more were 1 boss raids, and we had ICC for a year It was the best
Ulduar and ICC are so far above other raids it's not funny.
Especially ulduar.
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I still miss Karazhan. Even with all the fucking trash, it was just so much more fun than anything in the game up to that point. Big Curse of Doom numbers on Curator, Blue Beam draintanking Netherspite, the Chess event, and Malchazzar being the first boss that I have fond memories of wiping to dozens of times before we got it right. Having 10 people meant that each person had a lot more individual responsibility than in a 40 man raid, so there was no "somebody on the other side of the room fucked up and it's a wipe". It's also the first raid where I got to do some raid leading for our 2nd group and numerous pugs.
If they let us timewalk there, I'd resubscribe instantly.
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United Kingdom20275 Posts
"somebody on the other side of the room fucked up and it's a wipe"
That happens a LOT on 20 man; it would happen less on 10 but that often comes from the raid difficulty more than the group size
This stuff happens everywhere, but even happens on our tanks on Xhul. One of our tanks sometimes outright dies from >80% HP because he took 700k damage in the space of 0.2 seconds and was missing some buff (like active mitigation or a strong enough shield from healers)
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On November 17 2015 08:35 Spicy_Curry wrote:
good times
that last phase was awful to heal because of that cold debuff
There was a flash game like the Terron Gorefiend one to teach kids how to heal it.
Very interesting to heal since you have to resist the urge to heal people to the top.
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Second the comment about Karazhan. It was so amazing being able to experience raiding content with a smaller group after 40 mans in Vanilla. Raiding with my RL mates and the odd pug was the best experience I've had in this game.
I still maintain TBC as my favourite expansion, but I'd quit raiding by the time Ulduar had come along.
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On November 17 2015 09:09 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2015 09:00 TomatoBisque wrote:On November 17 2015 08:55 Teoita wrote:
On a slightly related note screw trial of the crusader. That raid was just awful. Nah wrath had the most and best raids of all time just ignore that naxx was a remake and was a total joke, toc sucked, 4 more were 1 boss raids, and we had ICC for a year It was the best Ulduar and ICC are so far above other raids it's not funny. Especially ulduar.
I don't know, I'd put Siege of Orgrimmar on par with ICC with the notable exception of the Lich King fight.
A lot of ICC's fights weren't as memorable, it's really how beautifully done the Lich King fight was that makes ICC so memorable.
Ulduar will simply stand alone probably forever as the best raid WoW has done if for no other reason than it was the first to incorporate multiple difficulties and it did it in a much more creative and fun way than any raid has since.
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On November 17 2015 09:13 Cyro wrote:That happens a LOT on 20 man; it would happen less on 10 but that often comes from the raid difficulty more than the group size
Honestly, I think 10 is the ideal size for a raid. I've loved 10 man raiding and 10 man raiding guilds my entire WoW career that they existed. It's just sad that Blizzard can't balance around 10 man raids exclusively. The only reason 10 man is sometimes easier is because the scaling mechanics are usually off at the extremes, so very large and very small groups have easier times with most encounters than groups in the middle. Not to mention mechanics that rely on the group splitting up are usually easier with 10 people because they have to make them 5 mannable so they're nerfed.
Let's be honest, the only reason Karazhan was particularly easy was that it was meant to be an introduction to raiding. You still couldn't fuck around very much in it at the beginning, but people quickly overgeared it thanks to Valor. ZA was actually an excellent instance that's been forgotten over the years and was quite difficult on release. They nerfed the bosses enough to make it easy after a while, but the first few guilds to get warbears were really good.
If they just made a "Mythic 10-man mode", I'd be all over it in a heartbeat. Downside would be if they make it hard enough there'd have to be certain classes that just get excluded in 10 man modes because there's just not a slot for them in the comps that can actually kill the bosses. With 20 that happens too, it's just not as big a problem. Mostly,I just enjoy having individual responsibility for certain mechanics so that each fight isn't just "dodge fire and nuke shit," and you get that more often in smaller raid sizes.
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United Kingdom20275 Posts
Mostly,I just enjoy having individual responsibility for certain mechanics so that each fight isn't just "dodge fire and nuke shit," and you get that more often in smaller raid sizes.
that's why i rolled hunter after seeing highmaul, they have much more responsibility than random melee. Aside from being the absolute kings of putting damage on priority targets (through burst and/or target switching + range) they're used all of the time for fight mechanics over other classes when possible
I prefer 10man myself, but some of the guys in my raid want 25+ man so i don't see it changing much from 20. I don't want multi-size on mythic because 20 man mythic is already hard enough to justify having a roster of 25-30 people and rotating some people based on classes to make fights easier.
Having it as 12-20 players flex would be an invitation for abuse by changing the amount of people in the raid on a fight to fight basis as well as the changes we already see to raid comp etc; you could for example do Gorefiend with 0 melee in the raid as your roster of 25 could support 2 tank, 3 healer, 10 ranged.
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On November 17 2015 11:22 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +Mostly,I just enjoy having individual responsibility for certain mechanics so that each fight isn't just "dodge fire and nuke shit," and you get that more often in smaller raid sizes. that's why i rolled hunter after seeing highmaul, they have much more responsibility than random melee. Aside from being the absolute kings of putting damage on priority targets (through burst and/or target switching + range) they're used all of the time for fight mechanics over other classes when possible
Giving Hunter pets basically all of the important raid abilities/auras kind of destroyed class diversity IMO. They have Deterrance as an immunity for cheesing mechanics, they have the 3rd best mobility in the game, they can bring almost any buff in the game, they can combat rez, they can bloodlust, they have excellent single target and decent AoE damage. There's almost no reason just to bring 1 of a couple of select classes and fill the rest of the raid with Hunters for most fights.
It's kind of stupid to make them so much better than the average class. Then again, I'm a warlock: this expansion we bring absolutely nothing to raids apart from a portal on like 2 fights that makes it slightly easier but is in no way necessary. Healthstones aren't even useful. We're really shitty DPS on the move, we rely on our 30% damage resist from SL and glyph to get through fights, and we don't even get to do cool shit like ranged tank stuff anymore.
I miss the good ole days 
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United Kingdom20275 Posts
Giving Hunter pets basically all of the important raid abilities/auras kind of destroyed class diversity IMO.
they can combat rez, they can bloodlust
These are things that are already done by all mythic raids with or without a hunter being present, it often doesn't change anything in that setting at the moment
they have excellent single target and decent AoE damage
Hunter ST is middle of the pack at best and their AOE either sustained or against many targets is awful; they live off the mirror of the blademaster trinket and barrage which is a 2-3 second cast on a 20 second cooldown. Our warlocks and warriors regularly beat my damage by 5x on the important AOE mechanics like Dragging Hands and inside the visions of Kilrogg and more classes bury our hunters on the fights like Iskar with more sustained AOE potential. This isn't specific to my guild, but seemingly all players as shown by logs:
* https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/8#boss=1777
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/8#boss=1785
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/8#boss=1800
MM is good because they can apply that damage very well. You see on the Xhul log that BM is way, way above MM - yet MM is 25x more popular - that's because BM pulls a lot higher numbers when taking the lololol aoe adds approach that most other classes are taking on that fight, but MM is more useful for doing fight mechanics. If you look at adds - phantasmal resonance, doomfire spirit, dominators on socrethar etc it's always hunter #1, #2, often #3 and #4 on those meters in my experience as they can switch hard and scale very well during 15 second burst periods.
Here's damage on Dragging Hands (burst AOE potential)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/heQtJIZ.png)
And here's damage from kilrogg visions where i took #2 ranking for any class and gear on the server (with the other 2 guys getting top 10 also)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/BRVBQYC.png)
They do not have the ability to match rogues or mages in ST or come remotely close to a bunch of other classes in AOE; they're just excellent for doing most of the stuff required for DPSers in mythic raids. Fight mechanics, target switching, bursting and not dieing are four things very high on that list. They have good-great (but not amazing) damage to back that up.
They have Deterrance as an immunity for cheesing mechanics
Several other classes have too, mages and priests especially can cheese even harder than hunters. They can stop several more important fight mechanics from even happening by disappearing as they're targetted by them, while hunter has to immune them (which doesn't protect other people in situations like iskar chakram or velhari annihilating strike)
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not a clue what to play this expac, was looking at resto shaman but the changes just look so 'meh these aren't changes' ha. I would like to go to a dps class but I just can't be bothered with those wait queues
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The solution to dps queues is to find a tank or healer friend
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On November 17 2015 12:49 TomatoBisque wrote:
The solution to dps queues is to find a tank or healer friend
all my friends quit the game a long time ago ha
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On November 17 2015 11:49 Cyro wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Giving Hunter pets basically all of the important raid abilities/auras kind of destroyed class diversity IMO. they can combat rez, they can bloodlust These are things that are already done by all mythic raids with or without a hunter being present, it often doesn't change anything in that setting at the moment they have excellent single target and decent AoE damage Hunter ST is middle of the pack at best and their AOE either sustained or against many targets is awful; they live off the mirror of the blademaster trinket and barrage which is a 2-3 second cast on a 20 second cooldown. Our warlocks and warriors regularly beat my damage by 5x on the important AOE mechanics like Dragging Hands and inside the visions of Kilrogg and more classes bury our hunters on the fights like Iskar with more sustained AOE potential. This isn't specific to my guild, but seemingly all players as shown by logs: * https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/8#boss=1777https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/8#boss=1785https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/8#boss=1800MM is good because they can apply that damage very well. You see on the Xhul log that BM is way, way above MM - yet MM is 25x more popular - that's because BM pulls a lot higher numbers when taking the lololol aoe adds approach that most other classes are taking on that fight, but MM is more useful for doing fight mechanics. If you look at adds - phantasmal resonance, doomfire spirit, dominators on socrethar etc it's always hunter #1, #2, often #3 and #4 on those meters in my experience as they can switch hard and scale very well during 15 second burst periods. Here's damage on Dragging Hands (burst AOE potential) And here's damage from kilrogg visions where i took #2 ranking for any class and gear on the server (with the other 2 guys getting top 10 also) They do not have the ability to match rogues or mages in ST or come remotely close to a bunch of other classes in AOE; they're just excellent for doing most of the stuff required for DPSers in mythic raids. Fight mechanics, target switching, bursting and not dieing are four things very high on that list. They have good-great (but not amazing) damage to back that up. They have Deterrance as an immunity for cheesing mechanics Several other classes have too, mages and priests especially can cheese even harder than hunters. They can stop several more important fight mechanics from even happening by disappearing as they're targetted by them, while hunter has to immune them (which doesn't protect other people in situations like iskar chakram or velhari annihilating strike)
My point was that no other class has THAT MANY important raid tools, not that hunters are absolutely required for anything. They can just perform any role just as well as any other class at the cost of not being at the very top of parses, which isn't necessary to actually down the boss.
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United Kingdom20275 Posts
They can just perform any role just as well as any other class
that's the part i disagreed with
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Hunters' flexibility in buffs/lust/brezes is more useful in 5 mans, which will probably be a bit more relevant in Legion since CMs will be more popular
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On November 17 2015 11:15 deth2munkies wrote:
Let's be honest, the only reason Karazhan was particularly easy was that it was meant to be an introduction to raiding. You still couldn't fuck around very much in it at the beginning, but people quickly overgeared it thanks to Valor. ZA was actually an excellent instance that's been forgotten over the years and was quite difficult on release. They nerfed the bosses enough to make it easy after a while, but the first few guilds to get warbears were really good.
ValorBadges didn't really factor into Karazhan until Zul'Aman. Before then what was available was incredibly limited, and of significantly lower iLvl than Karazhan gear (including gear crafted from Primal Nethers). It was only the new Badge gear that came with Zul'Aman and later Sunwell that Badge gear made Karazhan easy/obsolete (except for the fact that it dropped Badges).
Zul'Aman was great though, especially it's trailer.
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Italy12246 Posts
Crafted t4 gear was amazing for some casters because of the set bonuses (7% of your int in spellpower for spellfire, 92 extra spellpower on proc for spellstrike). For mages, the Spellfire and Spellstrike sets were better than t4 and even t5 if you didn't play 40/0/21, in which case you would only use two pieces of t5 and still run crafted gear in other slots.
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The bigger deal with karazhan gearing getting out of whack was that for dps classes the pvp gear back then was actually pretty good and allowed you to cover gear gaps and helped out a lot. That is how lots of bad guilds/friend groups/pugs managed it long before badge gear was released. It was opposite of now apparently (not that I've raided since wrath) in that gear on tanks healers was more important since you couldn't just wear the pvp gear. That was kind of the original complaining about welfare epics. PVP gear was 1000x more time intensive to get back then though then now. (Not any harder, anyone could grind it out which was the complaint.)
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EPT
