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On November 17 2015 07:38 Cyro wrote:
When i killed heroic anub'arak we ended the fight with a large portion of the adds still up (kiting, couldn't paladins also regularly AOE-stun them at the time?)
Yeah, with Holy Wrath, but I think it was 8 sec stun on 1min CD so you had to really raid stack to permastun.
EDIT: It's 3 second stun on a 15 second CD now, I forget if they changed it.
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
My best friend played a prot pally at the time for TOTC heroic, i remember it being a pretty crazy ability~ I leveled with him and spammed it a lot farming with mass-pulls in plaguelands; not sure of the timing but the stun uptime was rather high (either long stun or high frequency)
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On November 17 2015 05:43 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2015 05:30 FinestHour wrote:
anyone kno if those boas are worth using for current content the stats are huge rofl You're probably looking at the level 110 stats - IIRC, they have about ~780 mainstat at level 110 but only 300-350ish at lvl 100. We're waiting to see if the +10% to demons works on bosses and what the proc rates are
Funny thing I noticed when checking Archimonde's Loot. He actually is not a demon in HFC, he is classed as a humanoid.
Mannoroth, Zakuun, Tyrant and Gorefiend are tho.
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On November 17 2015 07:41 deth2munkies wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2015 07:38 Cyro wrote:
When i killed heroic anub'arak we ended the fight with a large portion of the adds still up (kiting, couldn't paladins also regularly AOE-stun them at the time?) Yeah, with Holy Wrath, but I think it was 8 sec stun on 1min CD so you had to really raid stack to permastun. EDIT: It's 3 second stun on a 15 second CD now, I forget if they changed it.
You couldn't permastun them past the first week. That's how Paragon killed it, then they made it so stuns went on DR the next week.
You didn't want to stun them too much, because you had to make sure they were stunned for Shadow Strike (assuming you were using the 1 Off tank strategy)
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
You couldn't permastun them past the first week. That's how Paragon killed it, then they made it so stuns went on DR the next week.
That's pretty negligent IMO. They were either allowed to keep the world first reputation using a tactic that nobody else was able to use after the fact, or they had it stripped from them because they did something that they were not informed that they were not allowed to do. That stuff happens all of the time; Ensidia got banned for a similar incident on the very next tier!
My friends guild was doing the prot pally offtank AOE-stun shadow strike thing
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Italy12246 Posts
That's not remotely close to what Ensidia did. There's a massive difference between being able to chain stun an add or not (which is simply encounter design and balance, for all Paragon knew they may not have been aware that stuns were meant to be on DR on adds as well, normally DR is only in pvp after all), and exploiting a random ass bug to avoid a core mechanic in a fight. Ensida was completely avoiding nuking the Valkyries, which is THE dps check for that phase of the fight.
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On November 17 2015 08:11 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +You couldn't permastun them past the first week. That's how Paragon killed it, then they made it so stuns went on DR the next week. That's pretty negligent IMO. They were either allowed to keep the world first reputation using a tactic that nobody else was able to use after the fact, or they had it stripped from them because they did something that they were not informed that they were not allowed to do. That stuff happens all of the time; Ensidia got banned for a similar incident on the very next tier! My friends guild was doing the prot pally offtank AOE-stun shadow strike thing
You needed your paladin/warrior to be block capped so they would only take shadowstrike damage. What would end up killing the tanks was shadowstrike + melee attacks so if you got the trinket from violet hall you would take almost no damage from the melee swings. I remember our tank going down to 15k hp and him being fine.
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On November 17 2015 08:11 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +You couldn't permastun them past the first week. That's how Paragon killed it, then they made it so stuns went on DR the next week. That's pretty negligent IMO. They were either allowed to keep the world first reputation using a tactic that nobody else was able to use after the fact, or they had it stripped from them because they did something that they were not informed that they were not allowed to do. That stuff happens all of the time; Ensidia got banned for a similar incident on the very next tier! My friends guild was doing the prot pally offtank AOE-stun shadow strike thing
I mean, that's very common. There's that debated line of clever use of game mechanics versus exploit. That same kill they ALSO used soul stones, since that raid used limited attempts it was a big deal.
You had instances where I believe Deus Vox had a huge advantage because they cheesed Heroic Iron Council by having a paladin use a moll machine, I believe. They patched that and no one killed it for weeks. Same thing with Ensidia and whole flower power controversy, it got patched and no one killed it until a nerf.
On November 17 2015 08:20 Spicy_Curry wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2015 08:11 Cyro wrote:You couldn't permastun them past the first week. That's how Paragon killed it, then they made it so stuns went on DR the next week. That's pretty negligent IMO. They were either allowed to keep the world first reputation using a tactic that nobody else was able to use after the fact, or they had it stripped from them because they did something that they were not informed that they were not allowed to do. That stuff happens all of the time; Ensidia got banned for a similar incident on the very next tier! My friends guild was doing the prot pally offtank AOE-stun shadow strike thing You needed your paladin/warrior to be block capped so they would only take shadowstrike damage. What would end up killing the tanks was shadowstrike + melee attacks so if you got the trinket from violet hall you would take almost no damage from the melee swings. I remember our tank going down to 15k hp and him being fine.
A friends guild had a really sloppy kill because that whole thing was blocking mitigating an INSANE ammount of damage, people were dying and he didnt have shockwave up for a shadowstrike.
He tried to use war stomp and he found out the hard way; You can't block while casting. Splat.
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good times
that last phase was awful to heal because of that cold debuff
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
On November 17 2015 08:16 Teoita wrote:
That's not remotely close to what Ensidia did. There's a massive difference between being able to chain stun an add or not (which is simply encounter design and balance, for all Paragon knew they may not have been aware that stuns were meant to be on DR on adds as well, normally DR is only in pvp after all), and exploiting a random ass bug to avoid a core mechanic in a fight. Ensida was completely avoiding nuking the Valkyries, which is THE dps check for that phase of the fight.
Permastunning those adds removes a huge part of the fight and they obviously did it on purpose. Ensidia was bugging the platform health because some of their DPS were using grenades (which also damaged buildings) in their damage rotations as that was the way to do the most damage at the time.
I think they're both obvious abuse (that was unintended by blizzard); it was removed, making the fight significantly harder. Ensidia was banned, Paragon was not.
It's really messy no matter what was done - if you invalidate a world first kill, that sucks. If you don't invalidate it but "fix" an encounter to be way harder, that also sucks; it's moving the finish line after some people already cross it.
I don't agree with the Ensidia ban either. If blizzard isn't watching, there should be some line of communication between the first players to do the content and Blizzard. If they put in a ticket saying hey, the platforms are respawning - and then they kill LK with respawning platforms - that's blizzard's fault, not theirs. I would expect the worst case scenario to be a revert, bugfix and apology to the players who had the world first stripped.
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In the end its Blizzards opinion what is an exploit and what is an unintended use of game mechanics. If you want a more clear statement I would advise you to look for it since I remember a blue post at the time explaining Blizzards own reasoning behind the ban.
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On November 17 2015 08:36 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2015 08:16 Teoita wrote:
That's not remotely close to what Ensidia did. There's a massive difference between being able to chain stun an add or not (which is simply encounter design and balance, for all Paragon knew they may not have been aware that stuns were meant to be on DR on adds as well, normally DR is only in pvp after all), and exploiting a random ass bug to avoid a core mechanic in a fight. Ensida was completely avoiding nuking the Valkyries, which is THE dps check for that phase of the fight. Permastunning those adds removes a huge part of the fight and they obviously did it on purpose. Ensidia was bugging the platform health because some of their DPS were using grenades (which also damaged buildings) in their damage rotations as that was the way to do the most damage at the time. I think they're both obvious abuse (that was unintended by blizzard); it was removed, making the fight significantly harder. Ensidia was banned, Paragon was not. It's really messy no matter what was done - if you invalidate a world first kill, that sucks. If you don't invalidate it but "fix" an encounter to be way harder, that also sucks; it's moving the finish line after some people already cross it. I don't agree with the Ensidia ban either. If blizzard isn't watching, there should be some line of communication between the first players to do the content and Blizzard. If they put in a ticket saying hey, the platforms are respawning - and then they kill LK with respawning platforms - that's blizzard's fault, not theirs. I would expect the worst case scenario to be a revert, bugfix and apology to the players who had the world first stripped.
Ensidia most certainly had a more or less direct line to Blizzard. No I dont think they ever told blizz about the grenades because blizz would have obviously said no.
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Ensidia's story has always been that they didn't know it was the bombs causing the platform to reform, and they've all maintained that 5 years later
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
I'm far from completely informed on that issue and others like it, just don't understand why stuff would happen like it did (ensidia going for kill anyway on bugged fight, blizzard not taking earlier/different action)
I have some belief for both sides but i don't see why they couldn't lock the lich king fight 10 minutes after the platform respawned for the second or third time. Anyway this is going a bit off topic  don't want to start a debate about 6 year old stuff
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Italy12246 Posts
On a slightly related note screw trial of the crusader. That raid was just awful.
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
On November 17 2015 08:55 Teoita wrote:
On a slightly related note screw trial of the crusader. That raid was just awful.
It's my friends favourite raid of all time and pretty far up there for me too, opinions are very black and white on it.
Having TOTC as well as Ulduar was great IMO, having it instead of Ulduar would not have been.
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On November 17 2015 08:54 Cyro wrote:
I'm far from completely informed on that issue and others like it, just don't understand why stuff would happen like it did (ensidia going for kill anyway on bugged fight, blizzard not taking earlier/different action)
Look up Blizzards official reasoning behind it if you want to know more.
Also I believe developers were much more backseat during that time, either because they couldn't or wouldn't.
It was not like now where we get reports from top guilds about bosses changing behavior in between pulls to account for 'clear use of game mechanics'.
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
It was not like now where we get reports from top guilds about bosses changing behavior in between pulls to account for 'clear use of game mechanics'.
we have come a long way, then
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On November 17 2015 08:55 Teoita wrote:
On a slightly related note screw trial of the crusader. That raid was just awful.
Nah wrath had the most and best raids of all time just ignore that naxx was a remake and was a total joke, toc sucked, 4 more were 1 boss raids, and we had ICC for a year
It was the best
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Italy12246 Posts
On November 17 2015 09:00 TomatoBisque wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2015 08:55 Teoita wrote:
On a slightly related note screw trial of the crusader. That raid was just awful. Nah wrath had the most and best raids of all time just ignore that naxx was a remake and was a total joke, toc sucked, 4 more were 1 boss raids, and we had ICC for a year It was the best
To be fair Ulduar and ICC were awesome, especially Ulduar. Except Fire Leviathan. And Gunship.
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EPT
