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Ukraine Crisis - Page 252

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There is a new policy in effect in this thread. Anyone not complying will be moderated.

New policy, please read before posting:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=21393711
Geisterkarle
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
Germany3257 Posts
March 08 2014 22:34 GMT
#5021
On March 09 2014 07:18 Sub40APM wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 09 2014 07:15 Geisterkarle wrote:
On March 09 2014 06:26 Gorsameth wrote:
On March 09 2014 06:22 Geisterkarle wrote:
Very nice interview with an expert/professor at CNN:
http://edition.cnn.com/video/standard.html?/video/bestoftv/2014/03/07/ac-stephen-cohen.cnn

The most important point he makes IMHO:
If the "west" wants Russia to step down ... they themselves have to step down too!
But currently "the word" is, that only Russia has to change its actions, because they are "bad"! And this is not gonna happen!
Both sides have to cool down! Sadly Ukraine is in the middle...

How can the west step down when they never stepped up.
Sanctions have been threatend but not enacted. There are no troops to withdraw.
How exactly does the west "step down".

Did you watch the video? It is told there!
It's not about troops! It's about the "influence" they take on the now satellite states of the old Soviet Union!
i.e. the EU is basically telling the Ukraine: "If you turn you back on Russia and join us, you get billions of dollars to fix your financial crisis!"
Russia wants to do something similar! But if the Ukraine would "join" Russia, they would be stronger! And "of course" we can't let this happen ...

The ultimatum about joining EU associate agreement and Russia Eurasian Union was given from Moscow, not Brussels.

? The Professor in the video says, that the EU gave the ultimatum! Have you sources, that say otherwise?
There can only be one Geisterkarle
Orcasgt24
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada3238 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-08 22:39:36
March 08 2014 22:36 GMT
#5022
On March 09 2014 07:27 Ghanburighan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 09 2014 07:24 Sent. wrote:
Ukraine would have to make that choice sooner or later anyway. I don't think it's possible to be a part of two different free trade zones. Correct me if I'm wrong but that would mean you could bypass economical barriers between Eurasian Union and EU simply by moving your goods through Ukraine.


Correct, it would make no sense at all as either Ukraine has two incompatible sets of laws in place at once, or the EU and the Eurasian Union have identical customs (etc) regulations.

However if Ukraine was able to pull that off they would become one of the largest trading nations by volume fairly quickly. Free Trade is profitable business and they would benefit greatly from it.
In Hearthstone we pray to RNGesus. When Yogg-Saron hits the field, RNGod gets to work
Sub40APM
Profile Joined August 2010
6336 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-08 22:47:01
March 08 2014 22:42 GMT
#5023
On March 09 2014 07:34 Geisterkarle wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 09 2014 07:18 Sub40APM wrote:
On March 09 2014 07:15 Geisterkarle wrote:
On March 09 2014 06:26 Gorsameth wrote:
On March 09 2014 06:22 Geisterkarle wrote:
Very nice interview with an expert/professor at CNN:
http://edition.cnn.com/video/standard.html?/video/bestoftv/2014/03/07/ac-stephen-cohen.cnn

The most important point he makes IMHO:
If the "west" wants Russia to step down ... they themselves have to step down too!
But currently "the word" is, that only Russia has to change its actions, because they are "bad"! And this is not gonna happen!
Both sides have to cool down! Sadly Ukraine is in the middle...

How can the west step down when they never stepped up.
Sanctions have been threatend but not enacted. There are no troops to withdraw.
How exactly does the west "step down".

Did you watch the video? It is told there!
It's not about troops! It's about the "influence" they take on the now satellite states of the old Soviet Union!
i.e. the EU is basically telling the Ukraine: "If you turn you back on Russia and join us, you get billions of dollars to fix your financial crisis!"
Russia wants to do something similar! But if the Ukraine would "join" Russia, they would be stronger! And "of course" we can't let this happen ...

The ultimatum about joining EU associate agreement and Russia Eurasian Union was given from Moscow, not Brussels.

? The Professor in the video says, that the EU gave the ultimatum! Have you sources, that say otherwise?

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/01587aa6-454c-11e3-997c-00144feabdc0.html?siteedition=intl#axzz2vPi7lh8D



Because their trade rules are incompatible, joining both groups simultaneously is impossible.
Moscow’s strong-arm tactics have included trade, energy and security pressures. With Ukraine, in recent months it has restricted imports of everything from steel to chocolates – ostensibly for health or safety reasons. In August, it temporarily slapped punitive customs controls on other goods in a demonstration of the measures it could take if Kiev signed an EU deal. This would heap pressure on a country already in recession that has been in intermittent talks with the International Monetary Fund.
Russia has also banned Moldova’s most important exports, wine and brandy, and has threatened to cut off gas supplies to Europe’s poorest country (“We hope you don’t freeze” this winter, a visiting Russian deputy premier remarked darkly.)

The EU is exerting pressure too but in a different way. It is demanding tough reforms of political and judicial systems by aspiring partnership countries. It is pressing Ukraine, in particular, to release Yulia Tymoshenko, the former premier and co-leader of the 2004 Orange Revolution. Brussels says her jailing, after Viktor Yanukovich, her arch-foe, became president in 2010, is an example of “selective justice” that Ukraine must stop.
The different approaches highlight a crucial contrast. The EU sees its Eastern Partnership as the best way of exporting its democratic values beyond its eastern border. Russia is pressing the same countries to join its single market, and submit to its rules, but is happy for the authoritarian elites and systems in countries such as Ukraine to stay in place.
“For the Kremlin, the successful implementation of an EU-type, rules-based, values-driven model of the economy and politics [in ex-Soviet republics] would directly threaten the supposedly distinctive . . . model of governance that is currently upheld by Moscow,” says James Sherr of Chatham House, a think-tank. “We really now have two different normative jurisdictions in Europe. That’s the new dividing line of Europe, and the question is where the border is.”


MoltkeWarding
Profile Joined November 2003
5195 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-08 22:54:20
March 08 2014 22:42 GMT
#5024
On March 09 2014 06:16 Ghanburighan wrote:
The following FP blog provides a nice rebuttal to harsh actions:

Show nested quote +

Nov. 4, 1956, Soviet tanks rolled into Budapest after Hungarian authorities announced that they would withdraw from the Warsaw Pact. A last, desperate teletype message from Hungarian insurgents read, "They just brought us a rumor that the American troops will be here within one or two hours.… We are well and fighting." Troops were not on the way. U.S. President Dwight Eisenhower, who had vowed to roll back Soviet control of Eastern Europe, did nothing, and the Hungarian uprising was crushed. Leaders of both U.S. parties accused Eisenhower of kowtowing to the Soviets. Adlai Stevenson, the Democratic candidate for president, alleged that the incumbent had "brought the coalition of the free nations to a point where even its survival has been threatened."
Russia has invaded a border nation once again, and once again the American president stands accused of vacillation. Barack Obama is not the former supreme commander of Allied forces, so the darts fired his way penetrate much deeper than they did into Eisenhower, who coasted to re-election. Obama's cautious response to Russian President Vladimir Putin's invasion of the Ukrainian region of Crimea has confirmed his growing reputation as a weak-willed figure whose faltering leadership has sent a message of impunity to the world's bullies. Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham recently tweeted that Obama's failure to attack the Libyans who killed U.S. diplomat Chris Stevens in 2012 invited "this type of aggression." Graham has a partisan ax to grind, but much of the commentariat has followed suit. My colleague David Rothkopf, straining for terms of abuse sufficient to the moment, has written that comparing Obama to Jimmy Carter, the gold standard for presidential weakness, may be "unfair to Carter."
+ Show Spoiler +

There is an implicit analogy here to the world of human relations. Since the only language a bully understands is intimidation, he can be deterred only if he knows in advance that he'll pay an intolerable price for his behavior: beat up my little brother and you'll answer to me. In the realm of foreign relations, this logic dictates Donald Rumsfeld's famous truism, "Weakness is provocative." Rumsfeld believed that the U.S. invasion of Iraq would serve as a demonstration project for bullies all over the Middle East, who would now think twice before testing American resolve. That experience taught many people, though not the former defense secretary, that bellicosity can be even more provocative than weakness.
The impulse to chestiness is hard to resist, whether in life or in foreign affairs.
The impulse to chestiness is hard to resist, whether in life or in foreign affairs. There is something glamorous and enviable about the freedom of action a bully enjoys. He swaggers, while lesser souls cower. We yearn to emulate that freedom without indulging in that cruelty -- thus our Walter Mitty fantasies. Bullying behavior seems even more intolerable when, like the United States, you're the most powerful kid on the playground. We thrill at the big brother who balls up his fist in the name of justice. Ronald Reagan got vastly more credit with the American people for crying, "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down that wall!" than his successor George H.W. Bush did for helping Mikhail Gorbachev end the Soviet empire peacefully. But the world owes Bush a much greater debt of gratitude.
Eisenhower understood that bullies often cannot be deterred without threatening a response that would be catastrophic for one and all. This is especially the case when the aggressor cares much more about the victim than we do. Nikita Khrushchev could not afford to lose Hungary, just as Putin believes that he cannot afford to lose Crimea to a Western-oriented Ukrainian government. That's no secret. Crimea was historically Russian, serves as the home to Russia's Black Sea Fleet, and satisfies Moscow's age-old drive for warm-water ports. A thug like Putin responds to a threat of this magnitude the only way he knows how -- with brute force. The idea that a more resolute American president would have made Putin stay his hand seems fanciful, on the order of "Who lost China?" or all the other places weak-willed American leaders are said to have lost to the communists. Today's version is "Who lost Benghazi?" -- or Syria.
Eisenhower felt confident that, in the end, the Soviets would not dance on the grave of the West, but that it would turn out the other way around. I suspect that Obama thinks about Putin in much the same way. Those who sneer at Obama now laud Putin as a strategic mastermind, playing Risk, as FP contributing editor Will Inboden puts it, while Obama plays Candy Land. Yet Putin has turned Russia into Saudi Arabia with nukes, a petrostate incapable of exporting anything that doesn't come out of the ground. He's playing with a switchblade while the rest of the world learns how to operate a laser.
As a foreign-policy president, Obama deserves to be compared to Eisenhower at least as much as he does to Carter. Like Obama, Eisenhower inherited a vast military budget that he viewed as an unsustainable burden on the national economy. He tried, not always successfully, to do more, or as much, with less. (In Maximalist, Stephen Sestanovich describes both as "retrenchment" presidents.) Obama's great goal in foreign policy is to wind down inherited conflicts -- including the war on terror, as I wrote last week -- in order to give his activist domestic agenda a fighting chance.
The besetting flaw of Obama's foreign policy is not that it's irresolute but rather that it has become so single-mindedly, unimaginatively subtractive. Obama entered office with great hopes of reorganizing the world order around global issues like nuclear nonproliferation and climate change. But he learned over time that he could not wish away the intractable conflicts he had inherited and that the American people had little appetite for his transformative vision, and so his enthusiasm sagged and his horizons contracted. He chose instead to make sure that America wasn't singed by the world's conflagrations -- above all in Syria, where he seems quite content to make empathic gestures in the face of the worst atrocities in a generation.
That's bad enough, of course. The distance between the hopes Obama once raised and the comfort zone he has chosen to occupy is far greater than was the gap between Eisenhower's rhetorical anti-communism and his pragmatic accommodations. Brian Katulis of the Center for American Progress, which functions as the White House's think tank, recently commented that Obama has stopped telling Americans why the world matters. He may have concluded that he can't win the argument.
My point, then, is not that Obama's detractors don't realize what a fine job he's doing, but that his failures are not failures of nerve.
My point, then, is not that Obama's detractors don't realize what a fine job he's doing, but that his failures are not failures of nerve. Had he followed a more confrontational policy toward Russia from the outset, as conservative critics wish he had, he might not have gained the cooperation he got on arms control, Afghanistan, and Iran -- and he would have played into Putin's fantasy of a battle of equals between the two countries, which in turn would have helped him gin up even more vociferous Russian nationalism in the face of unacceptable threats like the incorporation of Ukraine into Europe. I dearly wish that Obama had agreed two years ago to train, fund, and equip the Syrian rebels, and I believe his failure to intervene there will be a lasting stain on his presidency. But I wish he had done so to rescue the Syrian people from a monster, not to create a demonstration project for Putin.

Obama will now do what he can to isolate Russia through some combination of sanctions and the cancellation of events like the G-8 meeting scheduled for Sochi in June. None of that will have much of an effect so long as Putin's cult of personality continues to transfix ordinary Russian citizens; isolation will probably only strengthen his standing. A new era of East-West confrontation may loom, though if so it would be a much more lopsided one in which Russia has neither allies nor a legitimating ideology. Even more than the last time around, therefore, the West can afford to be steady and patient, secure in the knowledge that the future lies with the liberal democracies.



Edit: It's not really about a shooting, it's where and how that article was published which makes me worried. Facts on the ground have long since been abandoned as a reliable way to predict the future.


If American policy in 1956 is any example, it illuminates the confused nature of diluted responsibility among all parties. It is not true that the Hungarian rebels were fighting on principally because they thought the Americans would help them. Although RFE sent irresponsible and misleading broadcasts into Hungary, they did not much influence the sequence of events. Furthermore, RFE was broadcasting independently because they were staffed by overeager emigres who took over creative control of content, and because CIA doctrine vis-a-vis the "captive nations" was a confused mess of contradictions which did not once envisage something like 1956 as possible. Eisenhower and Dulles' policy was duplicitous and pig-headed in October/November 56, but the bottom line was sound: Hungary was not a legitimate casus belli for the west.

What is more interesting is what happened on the Russian side. As you may recall, the Soviets initially decided to retreat from the streets in Budapest, sacked the hardliners in Hungary, and entrusted the reformist Nagy to stabilise the situation. The Soviets did not decide to return in force until the 30th/31st, after intense debates in the presidium. This was because since 1953, the Soviet Union was increasingly on the side of the reformists in Hungary, and sympathised somewhat with what Nagy was attempting to implement. They were willing that Rakosi's Stalinist policies would be dismantled, and Soviet troops be withdrawn from Hungary as measures of stabilising the Warsaw Pact. It was at Nagy's decision to leave the Warsaw Pact and declare neutrality where the line was drawn. The move into Hungary in 1956 however, was not the high-water of Soviet aggression, but was a direct consequence of both her domestic liberalisation and her concurrent retrenchment in foreign affairs: the mid-50's in Soviet foreign policy was marked by detente with the West, rapprochement with Yugoslavia, and withdrawal from Finland and Austria.

It was a classical illustration of Tocqueville's principle that revolts occur not when despotism is at its height, but when it has begun to recede.

P.S. Regarding its similarity to the present situation, the demagogic pressures of election year were the foremost factors in the American reaction to events in Budapest, and their effects do not acquit democratic foreign policy well at all. Eisenhower's irresponsible anti-Communist bluster had no connection with the realities of foreign policy, and neither does Obama's anti-Russian bluster today.
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
March 08 2014 22:44 GMT
#5025
On March 09 2014 07:36 Orcasgt24 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 09 2014 07:27 Ghanburighan wrote:
On March 09 2014 07:24 Sent. wrote:
Ukraine would have to make that choice sooner or later anyway. I don't think it's possible to be a part of two different free trade zones. Correct me if I'm wrong but that would mean you could bypass economical barriers between Eurasian Union and EU simply by moving your goods through Ukraine.


Correct, it would make no sense at all as either Ukraine has two incompatible sets of laws in place at once, or the EU and the Eurasian Union have identical customs (etc) regulations.

However if Ukraine was able to pull that off they would become one of the largest trading nations by volume fairly quickly. Free Trade is profitable business and they would benefit greatly from it.


I'll be frank, according to everything I know about international trade law, it's impossible. The whole point of joining a customs union is that you change your laws (including customs laws, but not only) to match all the relevant laws of the union. To go from union A to union B, you'd need to change laws. So the only way to do so without getting kicked out of union A, is to somehow hide the fact that your laws differ from anyone in the first customs union.
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
Ramong
Profile Joined March 2011
Denmark1706 Posts
March 08 2014 23:10 GMT
#5026
On March 09 2014 07:42 Sub40APM wrote:
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/01587aa6-454c-11e3-997c-00144feabdc0.html?siteedition=intl#axzz2vPi7lh8D

Show nested quote +


Because their trade rules are incompatible, joining both groups simultaneously is impossible.
Moscow’s strong-arm tactics have included trade, energy and security pressures. With Ukraine, in recent months it has restricted imports of everything from steel to chocolates – ostensibly for health or safety reasons. In August, it temporarily slapped punitive customs controls on other goods in a demonstration of the measures it could take if Kiev signed an EU deal. This would heap pressure on a country already in recession that has been in intermittent talks with the International Monetary Fund.
Russia has also banned Moldova’s most important exports, wine and brandy, and has threatened to cut off gas supplies to Europe’s poorest country (“We hope you don’t freeze” this winter, a visiting Russian deputy premier remarked darkly.)

The EU is exerting pressure too but in a different way. It is demanding tough reforms of political and judicial systems by aspiring partnership countries. It is pressing Ukraine, in particular, to release Yulia Tymoshenko, the former premier and co-leader of the 2004 Orange Revolution. Brussels says her jailing, after Viktor Yanukovich, her arch-foe, became president in 2010, is an example of “selective justice” that Ukraine must stop.
The different approaches highlight a crucial contrast. The EU sees its Eastern Partnership as the best way of exporting its democratic values beyond its eastern border. Russia is pressing the same countries to join its single market, and submit to its rules, but is happy for the authoritarian elites and systems in countries such as Ukraine to stay in place.
“For the Kremlin, the successful implementation of an EU-type, rules-based, values-driven model of the economy and politics [in ex-Soviet republics] would directly threaten the supposedly distinctive . . . model of governance that is currently upheld by Moscow,” says James Sherr of Chatham House, a think-tank. “We really now have two different normative jurisdictions in Europe. That’s the new dividing line of Europe, and the question is where the border is.”



Excellent article
"Yeah buddy"
Geisterkarle
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
Germany3257 Posts
March 08 2014 23:39 GMT
#5027
On March 09 2014 08:10 Ramong wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 09 2014 07:42 Sub40APM wrote:
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/01587aa6-454c-11e3-997c-00144feabdc0.html?siteedition=intl#axzz2vPi7lh8D



Because their trade rules are incompatible, joining both groups simultaneously is impossible.
Moscow’s strong-arm tactics have included trade, energy and security pressures. With Ukraine, in recent months it has restricted imports of everything from steel to chocolates – ostensibly for health or safety reasons. In August, it temporarily slapped punitive customs controls on other goods in a demonstration of the measures it could take if Kiev signed an EU deal. This would heap pressure on a country already in recession that has been in intermittent talks with the International Monetary Fund.
Russia has also banned Moldova’s most important exports, wine and brandy, and has threatened to cut off gas supplies to Europe’s poorest country (“We hope you don’t freeze” this winter, a visiting Russian deputy premier remarked darkly.)

The EU is exerting pressure too but in a different way. It is demanding tough reforms of political and judicial systems by aspiring partnership countries. It is pressing Ukraine, in particular, to release Yulia Tymoshenko, the former premier and co-leader of the 2004 Orange Revolution. Brussels says her jailing, after Viktor Yanukovich, her arch-foe, became president in 2010, is an example of “selective justice” that Ukraine must stop.
The different approaches highlight a crucial contrast. The EU sees its Eastern Partnership as the best way of exporting its democratic values beyond its eastern border. Russia is pressing the same countries to join its single market, and submit to its rules, but is happy for the authoritarian elites and systems in countries such as Ukraine to stay in place.
“For the Kremlin, the successful implementation of an EU-type, rules-based, values-driven model of the economy and politics [in ex-Soviet republics] would directly threaten the supposedly distinctive . . . model of governance that is currently upheld by Moscow,” says James Sherr of Chatham House, a think-tank. “We really now have two different normative jurisdictions in Europe. That’s the new dividing line of Europe, and the question is where the border is.”



Excellent article

Can't read the article, the website wants me to register (not gonna happen). But what you quoted:
First off just a hint: I would really question the neutrality of a member of Chatham House - a direct partner of a foundation of EU-friendly, interim prime minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk ...
But it seems, the Ukraine tried to play both sides! And when in November Viktor Yanukovich basically said "no" to the EU, the protests started! And now we are here...
There can only be one Geisterkarle
Sub40APM
Profile Joined August 2010
6336 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-08 23:50:08
March 08 2014 23:49 GMT
#5028
On March 09 2014 08:39 Geisterkarle wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 09 2014 08:10 Ramong wrote:
On March 09 2014 07:42 Sub40APM wrote:
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/01587aa6-454c-11e3-997c-00144feabdc0.html?siteedition=intl#axzz2vPi7lh8D



Because their trade rules are incompatible, joining both groups simultaneously is impossible.
Moscow’s strong-arm tactics have included trade, energy and security pressures. With Ukraine, in recent months it has restricted imports of everything from steel to chocolates – ostensibly for health or safety reasons. In August, it temporarily slapped punitive customs controls on other goods in a demonstration of the measures it could take if Kiev signed an EU deal. This would heap pressure on a country already in recession that has been in intermittent talks with the International Monetary Fund.
Russia has also banned Moldova’s most important exports, wine and brandy, and has threatened to cut off gas supplies to Europe’s poorest country (“We hope you don’t freeze” this winter, a visiting Russian deputy premier remarked darkly.)

The EU is exerting pressure too but in a different way. It is demanding tough reforms of political and judicial systems by aspiring partnership countries. It is pressing Ukraine, in particular, to release Yulia Tymoshenko, the former premier and co-leader of the 2004 Orange Revolution. Brussels says her jailing, after Viktor Yanukovich, her arch-foe, became president in 2010, is an example of “selective justice” that Ukraine must stop.
The different approaches highlight a crucial contrast. The EU sees its Eastern Partnership as the best way of exporting its democratic values beyond its eastern border. Russia is pressing the same countries to join its single market, and submit to its rules, but is happy for the authoritarian elites and systems in countries such as Ukraine to stay in place.
“For the Kremlin, the successful implementation of an EU-type, rules-based, values-driven model of the economy and politics [in ex-Soviet republics] would directly threaten the supposedly distinctive . . . model of governance that is currently upheld by Moscow,” says James Sherr of Chatham House, a think-tank. “We really now have two different normative jurisdictions in Europe. That’s the new dividing line of Europe, and the question is where the border is.”



Excellent article

Can't read the article, the website wants me to register (not gonna happen).

Enter the link into google, googles first click program should mean its open to you
But what you quoted:
First off just a hint: I would really question the neutrality of a member of Chatham House - a direct partner of a foundation of EU-friendly, interim prime minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk ...

Why do you have to question that? Does EU not promote rules based integration that requires legal reforms and encourages the separation of business and politics as much as possible to bring countries closer to Western European norms? Is that not in contrast with Putin's model of 'vertical power' where a single party dominates the media, politics and the rule of law is arbitrarily applied?

But it seems, the Ukraine tried to play both sides! And when in November Viktor Yanukovich basically said "no" to the EU, the protests started! And now we are here...
'They' -- the Yanukovich government despite its claims during the 2012 elections of seeking further EU ties seems to have tried to play both sides off, when the EU balked at that style of diplomacy while Russia sweetened the deal -- on top of the ongoing economic penalties it began imposing on Ukraine throughout the year. Then protest started, and then Yanukovich signed onto the Euroasian Union and then police tried to disperse them.
kukarachaa
Profile Joined February 2011
United States284 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-09 03:19:45
March 09 2014 03:18 GMT
#5029
Looks like Russia asked for an international investigation into sniper shootings on Maidan.
Ukraine government said they will do their own investigation.
Sub40APM
Profile Joined August 2010
6336 Posts
March 09 2014 03:56 GMT
#5030
On March 09 2014 12:18 kukarachaa wrote:
Looks like Russia asked for an international investigation into sniper shootings on Maidan.
Ukraine government said they will do their own investigation.

Where'd you read that, I checked the main Russian papers and the main Ukrainian papers and dont see it.
kukarachaa
Profile Joined February 2011
United States284 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-09 04:55:45
March 09 2014 04:55 GMT
#5031
On March 09 2014 12:56 Sub40APM wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 09 2014 12:18 kukarachaa wrote:
Looks like Russia asked for an international investigation into sniper shootings on Maidan.
Ukraine government said they will do their own investigation.

Where'd you read that, I checked the main Russian papers and the main Ukrainian papers and dont see it.


It was on the news Russia 24.

" Министерство иностранных дел России предложило заняться этим комиссии ОБСЕ. "Так называемое "дело снайперов" уже невозможно будет замести под ковер. Мы предложили ОБСЕ заняться объективным разбирательством этого факта и будем добиваться здесь справедливости, потому что нам самим долго лгали. И использовали эту ложь, чтобы возбудить общественное мнение в неверном направление, возбудить вопреки объективным фактам", — заявил глава российского МИДа Сергей Лавров.
Тем временем в Киеве новая украинская власть сама, не приглашая международных экспертов, планируют создать официальную комиссию по "делу снайперов". Ее рабочую группу, по некоторым сведениям, возглавляет Андрей Парубей, ныне секретарь Совета безопасности и обороны Украины, а в прошлом комендант Майдана. "

kukarachaa
Profile Joined February 2011
United States284 Posts
March 09 2014 05:02 GMT
#5032
There is also report by Russian media citing an unnamed high ranking Ukrainian officer.
During the chaos on Maidan, from two military installations one with 80th brigade and the other with 90th brigade. Unknown people disarmed military personal, and stole dozens of Sam's "Igla", Russian version of stinger. Both installations were next to Lvov.
Sub40APM
Profile Joined August 2010
6336 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-09 05:39:17
March 09 2014 05:38 GMT
#5033
On March 09 2014 13:55 kukarachaa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 09 2014 12:56 Sub40APM wrote:
On March 09 2014 12:18 kukarachaa wrote:
Looks like Russia asked for an international investigation into sniper shootings on Maidan.
Ukraine government said they will do their own investigation.

Where'd you read that, I checked the main Russian papers and the main Ukrainian papers and dont see it.


It was on the news Russia 24.

" Министерство иностранных дел России предложило заняться этим комиссии ОБСЕ. "Так называемое "дело снайперов" уже невозможно будет замести под ковер. Мы предложили ОБСЕ заняться объективным разбирательством этого факта и будем добиваться здесь справедливости, потому что нам самим долго лгали. И использовали эту ложь, чтобы возбудить общественное мнение в неверном направление, возбудить вопреки объективным фактам", — заявил глава российского МИДа Сергей Лавров.
Тем временем в Киеве новая украинская власть сама, не приглашая международных экспертов, планируют создать официальную комиссию по "делу снайперов". Ее рабочую группу, по некоторым сведениям, возглавляет Андрей Парубей, ныне секретарь Совета безопасности и обороны Украины, а в прошлом комендант Майдана. "


Well its good to see the Russians maintain their good humor: "We will shoot OSCE observers if they try to enter Crimea but we demand they investigate the sniper issue." Its also an interesting way to describe Parubiy, the only source that I've found so far that said he would lead the commission was from the Russian state news agency citing a 'former Berkut member' who is certain it will be a cover up. I like the way they describe him as "current secretary of the national security council, formerly commandant of Maidan", suggesting his junta-ness, instead of noting that he's been in parliament for the last 9 years, all with main line reformist parties.

Here is an AP story on the issue, it seems like no one is sure what happened, the Estonia guy says he was just forwarding a rumor he heard, the source he cited says she isnt sure and some people in the new government blaming a "third force" while
A former top security official with Ukraine's main security agency, the SBU, waded into the confusion, in an interview published Thursday with the respected newspaper Dzerkalo Tizhnya. Hennady Moskal, who was deputy head of the agency, told the newspaper that snipers from the Interior Ministry and SBU were responsible for the shootings, not foreign agents.

http://news.yahoo.com/russia-ukraine-feud-over-sniper-carnage-203319580.html

If the Ukrainians are smart they will invite foreign forensic exports, show the contrast between the way the Kyiv government treats OSCE investigators and Russian Occupation Troops in Crimea do. And I hope they catch the bastards and try them to the maximum extent of the Ukrainian law. Then send them over to the Hague as well. God damn civilian murdering scum.

On March 09 2014 14:02 kukarachaa wrote:
There is also report by Russian media citing an unnamed high ranking Ukrainian officer.
During the chaos on Maidan, from two military installations one with 80th brigade and the other with 90th brigade. Unknown people disarmed military personal, and stole dozens of Sam's "Igla", Russian version of stinger. Both installations were next to Lvov.

Thats scary, lets hope it is in the same vein of reporting as the previous Russian reporting that suggesting ethnic cleansing will begin in Crimea.
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-09 08:36:04
March 09 2014 08:27 GMT
#5034

The Truth is not always somewhere in between. - Anne Applebaum
Russian television news is reporting…” Nowadays, when I hear those words pronounced on the BBC or ITN, I can’t help but wince. Over the past 10 days, Russian television news has reported, among other things, that 675,000 Ukrainian refugees have flooded over the Russian border; that extremists and neo-Nazi militants have illegally taken over the Ukrainian government in Kiev; and that Crimean “self-defence forces” or “pro-Russian forces” have spontaneously gathered in front of the Crimean parliament in order to defend it from those same Nazis.

Each of these statements is a lie: there are no refugees flooding into Russia. The queues of cars that appeared on broadcasts were found to be taken at a Polish border point, which thousands cross in any case every day. Nor have extremists and neo-Nazis taken over in Kiev: the elected parliament has now formed the government in Ukraine, following the president’s extraordinary decision to discard a negotiated agreement and flee the country.

+ Show Spoiler +

Let’s be clear about the “self-defence forces” in Crimea – sometimes called “pro-Russian forces”: they are Russian troops. They are driving vehicles with Russian plates. Their machine guns are definitely not for sale at local shops. They have not arrived in Crimea to defend the local Russians from attack because local Russians were not under attack. They are there to create hysteria, to undermine the government in Kiev, and to persuade outsiders that the accelerating Russian occupation of Crimea is legitimate – and perhaps that the coming occupation of eastern Ukraine, or other parts of Ukraine, is legitimate too.

In this last endeavour, they may be succeeding. After all, the tradition in this country is to give the other side a fair hearing, so those lies being reported on “Russian television news” are often used to create a sense of balance on British programmes, too. Sometimes members of the Russian media are also hauled into the studio. Their views are gently contradicted by British reporters or anchors, but still: they seem so certain of what they are saying, surely there must be a kernel of truth? Doesn’t the real story lie somewhere in between? Aren’t they merely seeing the world from a “Russian point of view”?

Of course, the most important target for Russia’s new information war is not the British. The information warriors – or “political technologists” as they are now called in Moscow – care most about Russians and those who speak Russian. Huge numbers of Ukrainians watch Russian television: both eastern and western Ukraine are widely and easily bilingual. But although the Kremlin might not be able to dictate the way the story is told on British or European television channels, they would certainly like to help shape it.

The impact is palpable. For example, the drumbeat of news about “separatists” has caused serious British pundits to wonder, in recent days, whether Russia doesn’t have a “right” to “have a say” in Crimea. Russia, after all, conquered Crimea at the end of the 18th century and there are lots of Russian speakers among the population (which was ethnically cleansed more than once); one could argue from the same logic that maybe Britain has a “right” to “have a say” in India, also a country that was conquered in the 18th century where there are lots of English speakers.

But although we can argue about whether past conquest always equals present possession, these aren’t the issues at stake. As the Russian media and its representatives in British television studios will not tell you, Russia’s legitimate right to its naval base in Sevastopol is not under threat, and never has been. The Russian navy’s access to the base has been recognised in carefully negotiated international treaties, none of which has been seriously challenged during more than two decades of Ukrainian independence. Russian sailors and officers have lived on the peninsula too. Never before have they broken the treaty rules or moved forces around the peninsula without notifying the Ukrainian government, as they are legally bound to do.

Even during and after the Orange Revolution in 2005, when another “pro-Western” government took charge in Kiev, the Russian and Ukrainian governments were able to work out their arrangements. But now there are “self-defence” forces gathering in front of government buildings – so there must be something to it, right? Russian television is reporting that Crimean separatists feel threatened by the new government in Kiev, so surely there has to be some truth in that, too?
I confess: the crude and shrill nature of the propaganda now being aired on Russian media and especially on Russia Today (RT), the international news channel owned by the Russian state, has surprised me. Until now, the tone has generally been snide and cynical rather than aggressive. With slick, plausible American anchors and some self-styled hip outsiders – Julian Assange had a regular show – it seemed designed to undermine Western arguments, not denounce them. But now it is openly joining an information war being conducted on an unprecedented scale.

The bald-faced lie has now become commonplace – RT is already showing Crimea as “Russia” on its electronic maps – along with other, spookier, tactics. Even the NSA doesn’t actually publish the interesting gossip it hears on Angela Merkel’s phone, but the Russian secret services have no qualms about posting misleading audio clips online, taken out of context. The latest, if you missed it, was a fragment of a conversation between Baroness Ashton, EU high commissioner for foreign policy, and the Estonian foreign minister. She was calling from a landline in her office in Brussels, he was on a landline in Tallinn. During the call, made at the height of the violence in Kiev, the Estonian repeated a garbled theory he’d heard about the identity of the snipers who were shooting demonstrators.

His garbled theory didn’t prove to be remotely true: the BBC Ukrainian service investigated, and spoke to the doctor who was the alleged source of the gossip. No one who was there has any doubt that the Ukrainian government, with Russian support, ordered the men to fire. But the seed of suspicion has been planted. The conversation is now being cited by Russian parliamentarians and used to spread the outrageous story that the demonstrators themselves organised snipers to kill fellow demonstrators.



Unfortunately, the only response to an all-out information war is an all-out information defence. The West used to be quite good at this: simply by being credible truth-tellers, Radio Free Europe and the BBC language services provided our most effective tools in the struggle against communism. Maybe it’s time to look again at their funding, and to find ways to spread their reach once more.

But politicians and diplomats, accustomed to speaking in bureaucratese, also need to get creative. A few days ago, the US State Department put out a statement entitled “President Putin’s Fiction: 10 False Claims about Ukraine.” Hours later, the Russian foreign ministry fulminated against the list, calling it “shocking, not as much for its primitive distortion of reality as its cynicism and overt 'double standards’…” In other words, the statement hit its mark. I hope there is more to come.
Source.



Here Marc Weller, Professor of International Law at the University of Cambridge, examines the legal issues raised by Russia's intervention in Crimea.
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
kukarachaa
Profile Joined February 2011
United States284 Posts
March 09 2014 09:19 GMT
#5035
On March 09 2014 14:02 kukarachaa wrote:
There is also report by Russian media citing an unnamed high ranking Ukrainian officer.
During the chaos on Maidan, from two military installations one with 80th brigade and the other with 90th brigade. Unknown people disarmed military personal, and stole dozens of Sam's "Igla", Russian version of stinger. Both installations were next to Lvov.

Thats scary, lets hope it is in the same vein of reporting as the previous Russian reporting that suggesting ethnic cleansing will begin in Crimea. [/QUOTE]

I agree that's probably the case. You would think if something like that did happened during the riots in Kiev, somebody up high in Ukrainian military had to get the news relatively fast, about the stolen SAM's, and I would assume Russia would find out right away as well. Either through the means of their intelligence agency or maybe through Yanukovich camp since he was still considered Commander and Chief at a time.

As far as I can see, these are the possible scenarios:

1) SAM's were stolen, Russia never found out until the recent leak by Ukrainian officer. I find this highly unlikely.

2) SAM's were stolen, Russia knew right away, but never said anything until now. Which makes no sense to me, since it makes for a compelling reason, for their forces to be in Crimea. Ukrainian military is incompetent, there could be hard core nationalists sitting outside our bases, picking off choppers and planes and so on.

3) SAM's weren't stolen, and its just another cog in the disinformation war that is going on.

I think number 3, makes the most sense, but we'll see.

Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-09 13:43:34
March 09 2014 13:03 GMT
#5036
carlbildt (Carl Bildt)

Another day of crisis. Russia just continues. Prepares annexation of Crimea. Clearly wants regime change in Kiev. But highly likely to fail.

2:32 PM Mar 9th via Tweetbot for iOS
http://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/442639048889622528
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
Acertos
Profile Joined February 2012
France852 Posts
March 09 2014 13:26 GMT
#5037
The longer it goes, the worse the propagandas and tensions get.
At least I'm happy that fellow TLers have stopped advocating Putin's madness.
-Archangel-
Profile Joined May 2010
Croatia7457 Posts
March 09 2014 13:37 GMT
#5038
On March 09 2014 22:26 Acertos wrote:
The longer it goes, the worse the propagandas and tensions get.
At least I'm happy that fellow TLers have stopped advocating Putin's madness.

There was only propaganda here, and those decided to quit once they figured out we are not stupid to fall for it.
Liman
Profile Joined July 2012
Serbia681 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-09 13:39:54
March 09 2014 13:38 GMT
#5039
On March 09 2014 22:26 Acertos wrote:
The longer it goes, the worse the propagandas and tensions get.
At least I'm happy that fellow TLers have stopped advocating Putin's madness.

But no one stopped advocating western madness.
Its all madness really.
Freelancer veteran
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-09 14:45:57
March 09 2014 13:43 GMT
#5040
I got my hands on some insider information. I can't reveal the source nor verify it in any way, so take it as you will.

1) The West is taking the crisis in Ukraine much more seriously than the public discourse reveals with strong reactions not only diplomatically but also with regard to military preparation and intelligence work.
2) While the diplomatic efforts in the EU appear restrained, there's a great deal more willingness among countries to act. This is especially true for France despite the Mistral deal. Even Germany's Merkel made diplomatic moves well beyond considered in their comfort zone. Note this EPP summit announcement by Merkel that has gone unnoticed.
3) The Ukrainians are deploying their troops to the borders of Crimea (at least every bit of machinery that still works, despite not being turned on since WWII - but Russia's troops there are also in a sorry state). Edit: Despite what they might say.
4) One of the main indicators for Russia's actions to follow is the Foreign Exchange reserves of the Russian central bank. The first day of trading (Monday), they lost 2% of their reserves. Yet, it has not been reported how much has been spent last week. There are some estimates around 15% but I can't find any accurate data.
5) A lot of people who have not slept much for almost a month are making decisions which will decide the fate of a great many people. Pessimism is warranted. Yet, it's unlikely this will become a shooting war, unless the Ukrainians decide so themselves.

***


Asked by the BBC's Europe editor, Gavin Hewitt, what would happen if Russian troops went beyond the Black Sea peninsula to enter "mainland" eastern Ukraine, Hague said: "There would be far reaching trade, economic and financial consequences. It would bring the great danger of a real shooting conflict. There is no doubt about that."
Source.
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
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