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On March 09 2014 05:53 Ghanburighan wrote:Russian media reports a shooting in Kharkiv. Well there you go, they got their provocation. From the Russian blog in the above link:
“This was Right Sector from the city of Dnepropetrovsk — the first letters of the license of the car correspond to the region. Furthermore, we have information that a group of fighters came in fact from Dnepropetrovsk to Kharkov, so-called titushki,” Titushki, the guys hired by Yanukovich to protect his regime during his president...from Dnepro his home region... have now changed sides to be fascist right sector?
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On March 09 2014 05:59 Saryph wrote:Good thing that column of Russian vehicles was already driving up there. They'll be there to protect the people really soon! /sarcasm.
All coincedence you evil western terrorist!
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A strong leader from US or EU needs to emerge asap and put an end to Putin's fascist plot. Only card Putin has against West is their gas dependance and that's it. He doesn't realise that EU can survive for some time without Russia's gas, until finding better means. There's nothing Putin can do against them. The commie fascist pig needs to be put on a leash. Russia will lose the Cold War again.
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On March 09 2014 06:01 Sub40APM wrote:Well there you go, they got their provocation. From the Russian blog in the above link: Show nested quote +“This was Right Sector from the city of Dnepropetrovsk — the first letters of the license of the car correspond to the region. Furthermore, we have information that a group of fighters came in fact from Dnepropetrovsk to Kharkov, so-called titushki,” Titushki, the guys hired by Yanukovich to protect his regime during his president...from Dnepro his home region... have now changed sides to be fascist right sector? To be fair, violence has already been going on in Kharkiv, like seen here: http://www.euronews.com/2014/03/01/ukraine-violent-clashes-in-kharkiv-leave-dozens-injured/
Shootings carries more weight though obviously.
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The following FP blog provides a nice rebuttal to harsh actions:
Nov. 4, 1956, Soviet tanks rolled into Budapest after Hungarian authorities announced that they would withdraw from the Warsaw Pact. A last, desperate teletype message from Hungarian insurgents read, "They just brought us a rumor that the American troops will be here within one or two hours.… We are well and fighting." Troops were not on the way. U.S. President Dwight Eisenhower, who had vowed to roll back Soviet control of Eastern Europe, did nothing, and the Hungarian uprising was crushed. Leaders of both U.S. parties accused Eisenhower of kowtowing to the Soviets. Adlai Stevenson, the Democratic candidate for president, alleged that the incumbent had "brought the coalition of the free nations to a point where even its survival has been threatened." Russia has invaded a border nation once again, and once again the American president stands accused of vacillation. Barack Obama is not the former supreme commander of Allied forces, so the darts fired his way penetrate much deeper than they did into Eisenhower, who coasted to re-election. Obama's cautious response to Russian President Vladimir Putin's invasion of the Ukrainian region of Crimea has confirmed his growing reputation as a weak-willed figure whose faltering leadership has sent a message of impunity to the world's bullies. Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham recently tweeted that Obama's failure to attack the Libyans who killed U.S. diplomat Chris Stevens in 2012 invited "this type of aggression." Graham has a partisan ax to grind, but much of the commentariat has followed suit. My colleague David Rothkopf, straining for terms of abuse sufficient to the moment, has written that comparing Obama to Jimmy Carter, the gold standard for presidential weakness, may be "unfair to Carter." + Show Spoiler + There is an implicit analogy here to the world of human relations. Since the only language a bully understands is intimidation, he can be deterred only if he knows in advance that he'll pay an intolerable price for his behavior: beat up my little brother and you'll answer to me. In the realm of foreign relations, this logic dictates Donald Rumsfeld's famous truism, "Weakness is provocative." Rumsfeld believed that the U.S. invasion of Iraq would serve as a demonstration project for bullies all over the Middle East, who would now think twice before testing American resolve. That experience taught many people, though not the former defense secretary, that bellicosity can be even more provocative than weakness. The impulse to chestiness is hard to resist, whether in life or in foreign affairs. The impulse to chestiness is hard to resist, whether in life or in foreign affairs. There is something glamorous and enviable about the freedom of action a bully enjoys. He swaggers, while lesser souls cower. We yearn to emulate that freedom without indulging in that cruelty -- thus our Walter Mitty fantasies. Bullying behavior seems even more intolerable when, like the United States, you're the most powerful kid on the playground. We thrill at the big brother who balls up his fist in the name of justice. Ronald Reagan got vastly more credit with the American people for crying, "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down that wall!" than his successor George H.W. Bush did for helping Mikhail Gorbachev end the Soviet empire peacefully. But the world owes Bush a much greater debt of gratitude. Eisenhower understood that bullies often cannot be deterred without threatening a response that would be catastrophic for one and all. This is especially the case when the aggressor cares much more about the victim than we do. Nikita Khrushchev could not afford to lose Hungary, just as Putin believes that he cannot afford to lose Crimea to a Western-oriented Ukrainian government. That's no secret. Crimea was historically Russian, serves as the home to Russia's Black Sea Fleet, and satisfies Moscow's age-old drive for warm-water ports. A thug like Putin responds to a threat of this magnitude the only way he knows how -- with brute force. The idea that a more resolute American president would have made Putin stay his hand seems fanciful, on the order of "Who lost China?" or all the other places weak-willed American leaders are said to have lost to the communists. Today's version is "Who lost Benghazi?" -- or Syria. Eisenhower felt confident that, in the end, the Soviets would not dance on the grave of the West, but that it would turn out the other way around. I suspect that Obama thinks about Putin in much the same way. Those who sneer at Obama now laud Putin as a strategic mastermind, playing Risk, as FP contributing editor Will Inboden puts it, while Obama plays Candy Land. Yet Putin has turned Russia into Saudi Arabia with nukes, a petrostate incapable of exporting anything that doesn't come out of the ground. He's playing with a switchblade while the rest of the world learns how to operate a laser. As a foreign-policy president, Obama deserves to be compared to Eisenhower at least as much as he does to Carter. Like Obama, Eisenhower inherited a vast military budget that he viewed as an unsustainable burden on the national economy. He tried, not always successfully, to do more, or as much, with less. (In Maximalist, Stephen Sestanovich describes both as "retrenchment" presidents.) Obama's great goal in foreign policy is to wind down inherited conflicts -- including the war on terror, as I wrote last week -- in order to give his activist domestic agenda a fighting chance. The besetting flaw of Obama's foreign policy is not that it's irresolute but rather that it has become so single-mindedly, unimaginatively subtractive. Obama entered office with great hopes of reorganizing the world order around global issues like nuclear nonproliferation and climate change. But he learned over time that he could not wish away the intractable conflicts he had inherited and that the American people had little appetite for his transformative vision, and so his enthusiasm sagged and his horizons contracted. He chose instead to make sure that America wasn't singed by the world's conflagrations -- above all in Syria, where he seems quite content to make empathic gestures in the face of the worst atrocities in a generation. That's bad enough, of course. The distance between the hopes Obama once raised and the comfort zone he has chosen to occupy is far greater than was the gap between Eisenhower's rhetorical anti-communism and his pragmatic accommodations. Brian Katulis of the Center for American Progress, which functions as the White House's think tank, recently commented that Obama has stopped telling Americans why the world matters. He may have concluded that he can't win the argument. My point, then, is not that Obama's detractors don't realize what a fine job he's doing, but that his failures are not failures of nerve. My point, then, is not that Obama's detractors don't realize what a fine job he's doing, but that his failures are not failures of nerve. Had he followed a more confrontational policy toward Russia from the outset, as conservative critics wish he had, he might not have gained the cooperation he got on arms control, Afghanistan, and Iran -- and he would have played into Putin's fantasy of a battle of equals between the two countries, which in turn would have helped him gin up even more vociferous Russian nationalism in the face of unacceptable threats like the incorporation of Ukraine into Europe. I dearly wish that Obama had agreed two years ago to train, fund, and equip the Syrian rebels, and I believe his failure to intervene there will be a lasting stain on his presidency. But I wish he had done so to rescue the Syrian people from a monster, not to create a demonstration project for Putin.
Obama will now do what he can to isolate Russia through some combination of sanctions and the cancellation of events like the G-8 meeting scheduled for Sochi in June. None of that will have much of an effect so long as Putin's cult of personality continues to transfix ordinary Russian citizens; isolation will probably only strengthen his standing. A new era of East-West confrontation may loom, though if so it would be a much more lopsided one in which Russia has neither allies nor a legitimating ideology. Even more than the last time around, therefore, the West can afford to be steady and patient, secure in the knowledge that the future lies with the liberal democracies.
Edit: It's not really about a shooting, it's where and how that article was published which makes me worried. Facts on the ground have long since been abandoned as a reliable way to predict the future.
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On March 09 2014 06:14 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2014 06:01 Sub40APM wrote:On March 09 2014 05:53 Ghanburighan wrote:Russian media reports a shooting in Kharkiv. Well there you go, they got their provocation. From the Russian blog in the above link: “This was Right Sector from the city of Dnepropetrovsk — the first letters of the license of the car correspond to the region. Furthermore, we have information that a group of fighters came in fact from Dnepropetrovsk to Kharkov, so-called titushki,” Titushki, the guys hired by Yanukovich to protect his regime during his president...from Dnepro his home region... have now changed sides to be fascist right sector? To be fair, violence has already been going on in Kharkiv, like seen here: http://www.euronews.com/2014/03/01/ukraine-violent-clashes-in-kharkiv-leave-dozens-injured/Shootings carries more weight though obviously. Yes but in the previous violence it was either pro-Russian guys beating up pro-Maidan guys -- seems like it would be impossible even for Putin to spin that as an 'attack on russians' -- and then the police dispelling the pro-Russian guys occupying the government offices. But now its 'right sector fascists' who have 'killed' people 'peaceful demand a referendum' its a wholly different and much more aggressive context.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/09/world/europe/crimea-crisis-revives-issue-of-secessions-legitimacy.html
The clash in Crimea is hardly an exact parallel of the Kosovo episode, especially with Russian troops occupying the peninsula as it calls a March 16 referendum to dissolve ties with Ukraine and rejoin Russia. Though the United States intervened militarily in Kosovo, it did not do so to take the territory for itself. But the current case underscores once again that for all of the articulation of grand principles, the acceptability of regions breaking away often depends on the circumstances.
It is an acutely delicate subject in the West, where Britain wants to keep Scotland and Spain wants to keep Catalonia. The United States, after all, was born in revolution, breaking away from London without consent of the national government — something that the Obama administration insists Crimea must have. The young American union later fought a civil war to keep the South from breaking away. Even today, there is occasional fringe talk of secession in Texas.
“It’s apples and oranges,” said Benjamin J. Rhodes, President Obama’s deputy national security adviser. “You can’t ignore the context that this is taking place days after the violation of Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial integrity. It’s not a permissive environment for people to make up their own minds.”
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Very nice interview with an expert/professor at CNN: http://edition.cnn.com/video/standard.html?/video/bestoftv/2014/03/07/ac-stephen-cohen.cnn
The most important point he makes IMHO: If the "west" wants Russia to step down ... they themselves have to step down too! But currently "the word" is, that only Russia has to change its actions, because they are "bad"! And this is not gonna happen! Both sides have to cool down! Sadly Ukraine is in the middle...
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On March 09 2014 06:22 Geisterkarle wrote:Very nice interview with an expert/professor at CNN: http://edition.cnn.com/video/standard.html?/video/bestoftv/2014/03/07/ac-stephen-cohen.cnnThe most important point he makes IMHO: If the "west" wants Russia to step down ... they themselves have to step down too! But currently "the word" is, that only Russia has to change its actions, because they are "bad"! And this is not gonna happen! Both sides have to cool down! Sadly Ukraine is in the middle... ...how can the West 'step down'? Russia says 'There is ethnic genocide of Russians happening!' and the West says 'We will oppose this, we will send UN envoys and OSCE monitors to protect Russians!' and when those guys show up they get beat up/threatened/have weapons shown in their faces by Russians. Russia says its a fascist junta in control! So Ukraine hosts elections in May.
In the paranoid mind of Putin the current government is a Western puppet but the only 'workable' alternatives the Russian have spelled out is to delay elections until 2015 and let Yanukovich come back as President.
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On March 09 2014 06:22 Geisterkarle wrote:Very nice interview with an expert/professor at CNN: http://edition.cnn.com/video/standard.html?/video/bestoftv/2014/03/07/ac-stephen-cohen.cnnThe most important point he makes IMHO: If the "west" wants Russia to step down ... they themselves have to step down too! But currently "the word" is, that only Russia has to change its actions, because they are "bad"! And this is not gonna happen! Both sides have to cool down! Sadly Ukraine is in the middle... How can the west step down when they never stepped up. Sanctions have been threatend but not enacted. There are no troops to withdraw. How exactly does the west "step down".
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![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BiOHKDrCUAA8on3.jpg)
Economist 6 years ago...
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On March 09 2014 06:22 Geisterkarle wrote:Very nice interview with an expert/professor at CNN: http://edition.cnn.com/video/standard.html?/video/bestoftv/2014/03/07/ac-stephen-cohen.cnnThe most important point he makes IMHO: If the "west" wants Russia to step down ... they themselves have to step down too! But currently "the word" is, that only Russia has to change its actions, because they are "bad"! And this is not gonna happen! Both sides have to cool down! Sadly Ukraine is in the middle...
Some wise words IMO, this thing is escolating the "bad way" now, and i agree Ukraine became some battleground in West vs Russia conflict.
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http://www.echo.msk.ru/news/1271432-echo.html the managers of the three major Russian government channels have decried bias anti-Russian discrimination in news
Слово «война», по мнению Эрнста, Добродеев и Кулистикова, стало актуальным в «едином и неделимом великом славянском телевизионном пространстве» в тот момент, когда «новые люди» на Украине начали дискриминацию русского языка. Авторы письма предположили, что если бы их украинские коллеги выступили с подобным заявлением тогда, последующего развития событий «удалось бы избежать». Российские власти, заявили авторы письма, пошли на «вынужденные меры», чтобы избежать проявлений дискриминации «в большом и малом».
The words "war", in the opinion of [3 names of guys in charge of Russian channels] became actual in 'the united and indivisible great slavic television spectrum' at the moment when the 'new people' in Ukraine began to discriminate against Russian language. The authors of the letter suggested that if their Ukrainian colleagues had with true declarations then, the subsequent developments could have been avoided. Russian government, declare the authors, went on to carry out necessary measures in order to eliminate the appearance of discrimination 'in large and small'
I have no idea what they mean by "united and indivisible great slavic television spectrum"
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Good article giving some reality on the economic reality of today's globalized economy, and the implied repercussions of conflict in such a world, both in Ukraine and Russia. http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/03/ukraine-goodbye-cold-war-hello-g-20143645051692739.html
As real as the Russian military power is, it was no match last week for the economic retaliation that Europe was promising under the security umbrella of NATO. If Russia is still today the first economic partner of Ukraine, its share in the country's balance of trade has steadily declined and the European Union has resolutely become the economic future of Ukraine and its main oligarchs.
The same economic sanctions that were inefficient in a Syria whose industrial development was too weak to turn the European market into a crucial element of its economic security or in a Belarus where Lukashenko's centralised grip has prevented the openness of his country at the expense of its population, those very sanctions have changed the domestic balance of power in Kiev and scared Yanukovich away, much to the distress of Putin who always criticised him as a weak leader.
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On March 09 2014 06:26 Gorsameth wrote:How can the west step down when they never stepped up. Sanctions have been threatend but not enacted. There are no troops to withdraw. How exactly does the west "step down". Did you watch the video? It is told there! It's not about troops! It's about the "influence" they take on the now satellite states of the old Soviet Union! i.e. the EU is basically telling the Ukraine: "If you turn you back on Russia and join us, you get billions of dollars to fix your financial crisis!" Russia wants to do something similar! But if the Ukraine would "join" Russia, they would be stronger! And "of course" we can't let this happen ...
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On March 09 2014 07:15 Geisterkarle wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2014 06:26 Gorsameth wrote:On March 09 2014 06:22 Geisterkarle wrote:Very nice interview with an expert/professor at CNN: http://edition.cnn.com/video/standard.html?/video/bestoftv/2014/03/07/ac-stephen-cohen.cnnThe most important point he makes IMHO: If the "west" wants Russia to step down ... they themselves have to step down too! But currently "the word" is, that only Russia has to change its actions, because they are "bad"! And this is not gonna happen! Both sides have to cool down! Sadly Ukraine is in the middle... How can the west step down when they never stepped up. Sanctions have been threatend but not enacted. There are no troops to withdraw. How exactly does the west "step down". Did you watch the video? It is told there! It's not about troops! It's about the "influence" they take on the now satellite states of the old Soviet Union! i.e. the EU is basically telling the Ukraine: "If you turn you back on Russia and join us, you get billions of dollars to fix your financial crisis!" Russia wants to do something similar! But if the Ukraine would "join" Russia, they would be stronger! And "of course" we can't let this happen ... except the EU isnt saying that at all. In fact they were clear in November that joining the EU will be a long and painful process, the credits -- tied with fundamental economic reforms -- were only offered after Russia invaded Crimea. The ultimatum about joining EU associate agreement and Russia Eurasian Union was given from Moscow, not Brussels.
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On March 09 2014 07:18 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2014 07:15 Geisterkarle wrote:On March 09 2014 06:26 Gorsameth wrote:On March 09 2014 06:22 Geisterkarle wrote:Very nice interview with an expert/professor at CNN: http://edition.cnn.com/video/standard.html?/video/bestoftv/2014/03/07/ac-stephen-cohen.cnnThe most important point he makes IMHO: If the "west" wants Russia to step down ... they themselves have to step down too! But currently "the word" is, that only Russia has to change its actions, because they are "bad"! And this is not gonna happen! Both sides have to cool down! Sadly Ukraine is in the middle... How can the west step down when they never stepped up. Sanctions have been threatend but not enacted. There are no troops to withdraw. How exactly does the west "step down". Did you watch the video? It is told there! It's not about troops! It's about the "influence" they take on the now satellite states of the old Soviet Union! i.e. the EU is basically telling the Ukraine: "If you turn you back on Russia and join us, you get billions of dollars to fix your financial crisis!" Russia wants to do something similar! But if the Ukraine would "join" Russia, they would be stronger! And "of course" we can't let this happen ... except the EU isnt saying that at all. In fact they were clear in November that joining the EU will be a long and painful process, the credits -- tied with fundamental economic reforms -- were only offered after Russia invaded Crimea. The ultimatum about joining EU associate agreement and Russia Eurasian Union was given from Moscow, not Brussels. Indeed. The EU has been pushing for more openness. Russia is the party threatening breaking off ties if they don't get preferential treatment.
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Ukraine would have to make that choice sooner or later anyway. I don't think it's possible to be a part of two different free trade zones. Correct me if I'm wrong but that would mean you could bypass economical barriers between Eurasian Union and EU simply by moving your goods through Ukraine.
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On March 09 2014 07:15 Geisterkarle wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2014 06:26 Gorsameth wrote:On March 09 2014 06:22 Geisterkarle wrote:Very nice interview with an expert/professor at CNN: http://edition.cnn.com/video/standard.html?/video/bestoftv/2014/03/07/ac-stephen-cohen.cnnThe most important point he makes IMHO: If the "west" wants Russia to step down ... they themselves have to step down too! But currently "the word" is, that only Russia has to change its actions, because they are "bad"! And this is not gonna happen! Both sides have to cool down! Sadly Ukraine is in the middle... How can the west step down when they never stepped up. Sanctions have been threatend but not enacted. There are no troops to withdraw. How exactly does the west "step down". Did you watch the video? It is told there! It's not about troops! It's about the "influence" they take on the now satellite states of the old Soviet Union! i.e. the EU is basically telling the Ukraine: "If you turn you back on Russia and join us, you get billions of dollars to fix your financial crisis!" Russia wants to do something similar! But if the Ukraine would "join" Russia, they would be stronger! And "of course" we can't let this happen ...
Cohen has made several questionable statements on Ukraine. This one also weird from the point of view of someone closely connected with 'satellite states' (shame on you) as I could have sworn that we, including I, used our votes and labour to be free of foreign influence and determine our own fate. We rely on international agreements (which, in the end, even NATO is) to keep those stronger than us in check, allowing those too weak to fend off military intervention to still determine their own fate. As aggression can also include economic and other means, there are a large number of international agreements (and organizations that guard them such as the WTO) which defend various parts of a sovereign country. What's tricky about military intervention is that there is no peacekeeping force, especially not when the aggression involves a UNSC member, it's up to the international community. Those who can act, must act, or the lack of enforcement destroys the entire system, and with it, the self determination of every nation except for the strongest. This view is naturally incompatible with any 'west' v. 'east', 'zones of influence' etc. analysis, which is why you don't hear Cohen's vocabulary used by those in power today.
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On March 09 2014 07:24 Sent. wrote: Ukraine would have to make that choice sooner or later anyway. I don't think it's possible to be a part of two different free trade zones. Correct me if I'm wrong but that would mean you could bypass economical barriers between Eurasian Union and EU simply by moving your goods through Ukraine.
Correct, it would make no sense at all as either Ukraine has two incompatible sets of laws in place at once, or the EU and the Eurasian Union have identical customs (etc) regulations.
Edit:
That's just asking for trouble:
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On March 09 2014 07:27 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2014 07:24 Sent. wrote: Ukraine would have to make that choice sooner or later anyway. I don't think it's possible to be a part of two different free trade zones. Correct me if I'm wrong but that would mean you could bypass economical barriers between Eurasian Union and EU simply by moving your goods through Ukraine. Correct, it would make no sense at all as either Ukraine has two incompatible sets of laws in place at once, or the EU and the Eurasian Union have identical customs (etc) regulations. Edit: That's just asking for trouble: https://twitter.com/ChristopherJM/status/442422537285562369 Also what is he going to say, "Oligarchs of East Ukraine, I come as a warning, if you join Russia your assets will be taken by the much more powerful oligarchs from Moscow and you too will go to jail if you resist"
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