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There is a new policy in effect in this thread. Anyone not complying will be moderated. New policy, please read before posting: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=21393711 | ||
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Godwrath
Spain10155 Posts
On March 03 2014 22:19 Undead1993 wrote: if the history teaches you a lesson then nato and other organisations should also start fighting against this: + Show Spoiler + otherwise they are just pretenders Oh look, is that video with a kid speaking accentless russian. | ||
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mdb
Bulgaria4059 Posts
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On March 03 2014 22:37 mdb wrote: Whats up will that nazi stuff? Well, Ukraine has it's dose of nationalism, and some like to capitalize on that. | ||
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Uriel_SVK
Slovakia427 Posts
On March 03 2014 22:37 mdb wrote: Whats up will that nazi stuff? Guess some people are trying to imply that nazis are leading ukraine now.... | ||
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On March 03 2014 22:32 Godwrath wrote: Oh look, is that video with a kid speaking accentless russian. On BBC in the middle of Kiev. Yes, I would love to see someone faking it there, I think he would not last too long. Either a lot is wrong with BBC or I doubt it is fake. It is not like their political representatives are much tamer and on public record. | ||
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Crushinator
Netherlands2138 Posts
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SF-Fork
Russian Federation1401 Posts
On March 03 2014 22:32 Godwrath wrote: Oh look, is that video with a kid speaking accentless russian. actually its a quite clear kievan russian accent. He is local, he speaks russian. There are more Russians that don't speak ukrainian in Ukraine than otherwise. | ||
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Godwrath
Spain10155 Posts
On March 03 2014 22:52 SF-Fork wrote: actually its a quite clear kievan russian accent. He is local, he speaks russian. There are more Russians that don't speak ukrainian in Ukraine than otherwise. I find interesting a nationalist radical calling "Ukraine for Ukranians" on Russian. It could be that's actually alien to me, or something is off. | ||
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Kurumi
Poland6130 Posts
On March 03 2014 22:50 Crushinator wrote: I find myself having alot of sympathy for Russia, which is strange for me. From what I understand Ukraine does not have a better claim on Crimea than Russia does, Crimea was handed to Ukraine with the understanding that Ukraine was a Russian allied state and Crimea would be autonomous. Now Crimea isn't autonomous, the majority of the population is seperatist and ethnic Russian, and Ukraine is turning away from Russia. The issue of the Crimean tartars is a bit difficult though. Crimea is autonomous. It has its own parliament. Crimea wasn't given by the Soviet Union. It was taken and then given to the Ukrainian Soviet Republic. The Crimean Tatars were repressed since XIXth century by Tsarist Russia. Not only them of course, everyone but proper Russian Orthodox was subject to displacement and such. Even if you were proper Russian Orthodox you could be in trouble for trying to make Russia a more democratic place. What Putin is doing is what Hitler did. He is not going to stop if he gets Crimea. | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
On March 03 2014 22:50 Crushinator wrote: I find myself having alot of sympathy for Russia, which is strange for me. From what I understand Ukraine does not have a better claim on Crimea than Russia does, Crimea was handed to Ukraine with the understanding that Ukraine was a Russian allied state and Crimea would be autonomous. Now Crimea isn't autonomous, the majority of the population is seperatist and ethnic Russian, and Ukraine is turning away from Russia. The issue of the Crimean tartars is a bit difficult though. I think you've been successfully misled that Russia has nothing to do with separatism right now. It's their excuse to be involved in Crimea, and you have totally believed in their lie. They're giving passports left and right as well, so they can later say "we protect Russian citizens". | ||
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Crushinator
Netherlands2138 Posts
On March 03 2014 22:59 Kurumi wrote: Crimea is autonomous. It has its own parliament. Crimea wasn't given by the Soviet Union. It was taken and then given to the Ukrainian Soviet Republic. The Crimean Tatars were repressed since XIXth century by Tsarist Russia. Not only them of course, everyone but proper Russian Orthodox was subject to displacement and such. Even if you were proper Russian Orthodox you could be in trouble for trying to make Russia a more democratic place. What Putin is doing is what Hitler did. He is not going to stop if he gets Crimea. My mistake I believed Crimea lost its autonomous status at some point. | ||
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SF-Fork
Russian Federation1401 Posts
On March 03 2014 22:58 Godwrath wrote: I find interesting a nationalist radical calling "Ukraine for Ukranians" on Russian. It could be that's actually alien to me, or something is off. A Russian-speaking Ukrainian is still a Ukrainian. It's not like Russians "settled" Ukraine. Kiev was one of the first hubs of slavic cultures. My family has been living in the east and south part of the current Ukraine and I have no knowledge of any of them speaking ukrainian as far as pre-soviet times (at least 5 generations). My last name is ukranian also, yet I can't speak ukranian. I also have friends in Kharkov who support a nationalist movement and they don't speak ukranian. | ||
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MyrMindservant
695 Posts
On March 03 2014 22:18 m4ini wrote: The ukraine does not have an intact government, or an army to command (since they refuse to obey orders from what you call "the government"). You conveniently left that out, and that makes all the difference. Their own army does not obey to their call to arms, doubting the legitimation. If you like it or not, the whole thing is a politic kabarett - the EU etc has to tiptoe around the fact that the ukraine is led by a "junta" (not really, but the softer version of this). If there would be elections right now, and a proper, voted government would call for a peacekeeping mission, i doubt it would fail to achieve it. There is so much disinformation and false assumptions in this thread that it make me sick. Ukraine does have a functioning government, even if some ministers are acting rather then permanent. As far as politic is concerned, only Russia refused to recognize it. Ukrainian army does obey new government. So far it did everything it was asked to do, including orders to not shoot Russian soldiers or give them any other formal reasons to start a full-fledged war. Few military individuals/officers in Crimea has deserted to Russia, by this is not a whole army or even a sizable part of it. And FFS, there is no junta in Ukraine. Ukrainian parliament does have legal rights to dissolve cabinet of ministers and appoint new ones. Not all of them though, but most. The parliament itself was democratically elected in 2012. Out of 450 deputies, around 30-60 have fled from Kiev or are unavailable in some other way, but all other are doing their job. Majority of laws passed during last weeks were supported by more than 300 deputies. Before the revolution has started, around ~250 members of the parliament were in pro-yanukovich coalition. So passing any laws or making decisions would be impossible without their support. Most members of parliament that previously supported Yanukovich simply decided that abandoning him and (temporarily) cooperating with opposition is the only way to solve the crisis and move forward. | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
On March 03 2014 23:08 SF-Fork wrote: A Russian-speaking Ukrainian is still a Ukrainian. It's not like Russians "settled" Ukraine. Kiev was one of the first hubs of slavic cultures. My family has been living in the east and south part of the current Ukraine and I have no knowledge of any of them speaking ukrainian as far as pre-soviet times (at least 5 generations). My last name is ukranian also, yet I can't speak ukranian. I also have friends in Kharkov who support a nationalist movement and they don't speak ukranian. I think White-Ra also writes in Russian. I don't remember any authentic Ukrainian from him. | ||
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Crushinator
Netherlands2138 Posts
On March 03 2014 23:05 darkness wrote: I think you've been successfully misled that Russia has nothing to do with separatism right now. It's their excuse to be involved in Crimea, and you have totally believed in their lie. They're giving passports left and right as well, so they can later say "we protect Russian citizens". Oh I understand that Russia is morally pragmatic to the point of machiavellian nihilism, but I am not sure what to make of this issue. | ||
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rapistzerg
37 Posts
On March 03 2014 22:32 Godwrath wrote: Oh look, is that video with a kid speaking accentless russian. No need to show your ignorance, everyone in Ukraine can speak at least some Russian. | ||
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polluxtby
Sweden207 Posts
On March 03 2014 22:50 Crushinator wrote: I find myself having alot of sympathy for Russia, which is strange for me. From what I understand Ukraine does not have a better claim on Crimea than Russia does, Crimea was handed to Ukraine with the understanding that Ukraine was a Russian allied state and Crimea would be autonomous. Now Crimea isn't autonomous, the majority of the population is seperatist and ethnic Russian, and Ukraine is turning away from Russia. The issue of the Crimean tartars is a bit difficult though. Ukraine has a better claim on Crimea than Russia simply because it's Ukrainian territory. There is a majority of ethnic Russians (58%) living there but there is also a sizable Ukrainian population (24%) and about 12% Crimean Tartars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea#Demographics). Demographics alone are never a valid cause for aggression and what Russia is doing is nothing short of an invasion, completely disregarding the sovereignty of Ukraine and breaking the 1994 Budapest Memorandum which led to Ukraine giving up 1900 nuclear warheads to Russia in exchange for assurances of Ukraines territorial integrity and political independence from Russia, USA and Great Britain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances) Russia in breaking international law and greatly destabilizing the entire region of eastern europe. "Protecting" russians is something that can be used to justify interventions in the baltics and other countrys, some of which are parts of NATO. Me personally think that this is completely unacceptable Edit: Slow writing means being late to the party | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
On March 03 2014 17:54 r.Evo wrote: Do you genuinely believe that by comparing Putin to Hitler you're making an effort to de-escalate the situation? Are you implying that a discussion at TL has something to do with actual conflict de-escalation? | ||
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radiatoren
Denmark1907 Posts
source The possible consequences are mostly defensive improvements of their territorys military installations, but can also develop into an intervention. | ||
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BeaTeR
Kazakhstan4130 Posts
On March 03 2014 23:10 darkness wrote: I think White-Ra also writes in Russian. I don't remember any authentic Ukrainian from him. whitera is from odessa, this city is pro-russian. there are a lot of people of various nationalities living in odessa, and everyone is proud to be a part of such an international society. If you meet someone who speaks ukrainian in Odessa, 99% he came from west regions of the country. | ||
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